9mm performance [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : 9mm performance


dberry
02-13-2006, 12:48
Has anyone ever seen someone get shot with a 9mm. I like the cartridge but I hear alot of negative about it. I figure this is teh place to ask the qusetion of, Is the 9mm ineffective?.I carry 9mm everyday so I am interested in this debate.;g

Coastietech
02-13-2006, 15:31
Originally posted by dberry
I figure this is teh place to ask the qusetion of, Is the 9mm ineffective?.I carry 9mm everyday so I am interested in this debate.;g

If you are asking whether the 9mm round is effective for the military I would say no. The military is bound by the Geneva convention and is not allowed to use JHP rounds. The only rounds the military is allowed to use is FMJ which means there is no expansion in the target and it often over penetrates making it dangerous to anything around the target. As far as 9mm for civilian use I have confidence in it. With the technology that goes into making JHP more efficent and deadly I don't think you will have a problem stopping a bg. Most name brand JHP's are made to expand in and not over penetrate the target. This argument can never be won by either side ion my opinion. Some people believe small and fast are the best answer and yet others think that big and slow is best. I personally carry an XD9 and a G19 because I can shoot better with a 9mm. The best way to stop a threat is shot placement. If you can shoot 9mm better and faster then that would be your best bet. Better to hit the bg with a 9mm then to miss with a .50 cal.

Linh40
02-14-2006, 00:40
If you do a search there is a guy that "accidently" shot himself while cleaning his glock (don't remember the caliber) and he post pics of his injuries.

USDefender
02-15-2006, 15:36
I served in the US Army but was only issued a S&W .38 as a helo crewchief. Thankfully, I never had to fire it at anyone because -based on the sorry state of my issue pistol (i.e.old, rickety, & inaccurate)- I seriously doubt I would've ever hit anyone with it...

My youngest brother, however, served as a Marine in some of the thickest fighting that happened in Fallujah about a year or two ago...

He said that the 9mm was a joke. As far as the 9mm Ball round goes, it's almost worthless as a battlefield weapon with practically NO stopping power. (I'm not surprised it was invented by the Europeans).

He said the only guys using it were officers who were too stupid to draw M-16s & M-4s.

Based on my experience with officers in the Army, I believe him. ;e

Now, I have no doubt that the 9mm's lame reputation would improve if the US Military were to ever authorize HP bullets... But I just don't see this happening.

Hal9mm
02-15-2006, 18:22
Originally posted by Coastietech
The military is bound by the Geneva convention and is not allowed to use JHP rounds.

Its actually the Hague convention which banned expanding ammunition, Although we abide by the Hague we did not agree to it.

Bill1954
02-16-2006, 02:00
I personally believe that a 9mm is a fine cartridge when compared to other pistol cartridges. I would never compare any pistol cartridge to any high powered rifle cartridge. Over the years I have become a firm believer in bullet placement. If a 9mm, .40 or .45 rips through a lung and heart, the person with the lung and heart are going to find it hard to distinguish what calibre the projectile was. By the same token, if I were the one being shot, I would much rather prefer a .44 magnum in the shoulder than a .22 in the eye socket. I have a lot of different calibres 9's, 45, 357's etc. I think the best bullet for me would be a 125 grain JHP Federal or Remington 357 magnum. At 1450 feet per second out of a 4 inch barrel, producing about 600 ft. lbs. of energy, a great deal of hydrostatic shock (what makes a high powered rifle cartridge so devastating), expanding to over .60 cal. and most of the time staying with the person being shot, so all of the ft. lbs. of energy is expended in the target. But then again....... if I don't put the bullet where it needs to be....

Jungle Work
02-17-2006, 21:11
I carried a Walther P-38 as a side arm in Vietnam for 23 months.
9mms will get the job done if you put the rounds in the right place. Shot Placement is all important in dealing with small arms. I have seen a hard core little sapper take a lung shot with a .50BMG round and still run about a hundred yards and toss a schatel charge into a TOC.
So, the name of the game with pistols and rifles is shot placement.

btw-the folks I shot with a 9mm pistol are still dead.

GackMan
02-17-2006, 22:57
I'll caveat this post with the statement that I've never seen anyone shot with a 9mm when I was in the military. But I've seen a good number of handgun wounds since I got out.

The problem with these discussions is this: No matter the caliber, it is a pistol... Handguns are unsuitable for killing people on the battle field. 9mm, .45 whatever. They suck. Nothing you can hold in your hand has the energy to kill someone. Look at the comparison between something like a 10mm or a .44 and even the most anemic cernterfire rifle rounds. No comparison.

Pistols are a defensive weapon. The military is an offensive environment.

If you are talking platforms. I hated the Beretta when I carried it in the Army. But that may be largely personal preference.

Jafo2001
02-19-2006, 21:47
As a medic I never directly observed more than a grazing wound. We did watch videos of 9mm rounds employed by Seals. Like others here have said, they can kill but shot placement is the key. They used 3 shots on every target they took out. 2 center of mass and one to the head. I will see if I can find that training video someplace, but with the current state of reporting, I doubt it is online anywhere...

That being said, being on a National Guard shooting team, the 9mm is what we used and with civilian loads I feel very comfortable with it. As a matter of fact I have one as my sidearm of choice today and am currently looking at getting another for CC.

p.s. I have not found the video, but here is an article looking at different Wound potentials for different calibers and as a bonus to GlockTalk, they use Glocks as one of the test weapons...
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf

isuzu
02-20-2006, 18:12
Originally posted by Coastietech
If you are asking whether the 9mm round is effective for the military I would say no. The military is bound by the Geneva convention and is not allowed to use JHP rounds. The only rounds the military is allowed to use is FMJ which means there is no expansion in the target and it often over penetrates making it dangerous to anything around the target. As far as 9mm for civilian use I have confidence in it. With the technology that goes into making JHP more efficent and deadly I don't think you will have a problem stopping a bg. Most name brand JHP's are made to expand in and not over penetrate the target. This argument can never be won by either side ion my opinion. Some people believe small and fast are the best answer and yet others think that big and slow is best. I personally carry an XD9 and a G19 because I can shoot better with a 9mm. The best way to stop a threat is shot placement. If you can shoot 9mm better and faster then that would be your best bet. Better to hit the bg with a 9mm then to miss with a .50 cal.

I think it's the Hague Accord.

fnfalman
02-28-2006, 12:25
I used to pack a pistol (illegally) when I deployed, but that's more because I have no faith in the M16 being reliable to keep my ass alive than anything. I think that for most soldiers, a pistol is about as useful as teats on wild boars. Pistols are primarily badges of ranks with very few practical usages. Aviators who can't pack anything bigger into the cockpits, special ops troops sneakie petes running around in civvies scouting out areas, hostage rescue, medics who don't need a rifle to get in the way with carrying their lifesaving gears or manhandling casualties, that sort of practical thing.

But otherwise, it's stupid to carry extra weight that serve little purpose.

AirAssault
03-01-2006, 16:31
i shot the 1911 .45 and the Beretta 92F 9mm both while in the army and when the **** hit the fan i would take a FMJ .45 ANY day of the week over a FMJ 9mm.

fxdwngflyr
03-02-2006, 12:33
Carry a G30 everyday concealed.

.45ACP. Slow but hard!

Perka
03-13-2006, 08:44
Originally posted by fnfalman
I used to pack a pistol (illegally) when I deployed, but that's more because I have no faith in the M16 being reliable to keep my ass alive than anything. I think that for most soldiers, a pistol is about as useful as teats on wild boars. Pistols are primarily badges of ranks with very few practical usages. Aviators who can't pack anything bigger into the cockpits, special ops troops sneakie petes running around in civvies scouting out areas, hostage rescue, medics who don't need a rifle to get in the way with carrying their lifesaving gears or manhandling casualties, that sort of practical thing.

But otherwise, it's stupid to carry extra weight that serve little purpose.

+1. As an officer (but not in US Army) I always carried my G3 on my back. IMHO the service pistol is just to keep your own men in check and to give you some kind of security. As a real weapon against the enemy it is close to useless....

Bill1954
03-13-2006, 17:24
Perka,

That G3 you carry in my humble opinion is about as good as it gets for a battle rifle. I thinlk a lot of others could learn something from Estonia. Bill

Perka
03-15-2006, 02:35
Originally posted by Bill1954
Perka,

That G3 you carry in my humble opinion is about as good as it gets for a battle rifle. I thinlk a lot of others could learn something from Estonia. Bill

I've served in the Swedish forces, but we have given a a couple of 100.000 of our G3s to the Estonian army. The G3 is extremely reliable, has fantastic penetration power, and is superbly accurate even as a sniper rifle considering that it is a automatic mass produced assaultrifle. As I see it, it only has one drawback.... it is heavy.

In Swe we have more or less replaced it with our AK5 (a gun we developed together with FN). Much lighter and smaller ammo (5.56).

In any case our Swe officers carry Glock 17s (although we call it Pistol88). The Glocks are really the only guns that could handle our m39b ammo which was designed for submachineguns....

{TEX}Hawaii 5-0
03-15-2006, 18:37
The M9 and army issue mags for it are terrible.. My company had 13 when I was in Hawaii. We took all of them to a shooting competition in Austrailia and 11 of them broke (safety sheared off). The army issue mags jam in the harsh conditions of the desert way to easy. we bought civilian mags from Beretta and Wolfe springs. The Army is changing to a new pistol soon. I will be happy then, I hope....

Halojumper
03-15-2006, 18:45
Originally posted by Linh40
If you do a search there is a guy that "accidently" shot himself while cleaning his glock (don't remember the caliber) and he post pics of his injuries.

It's a 40 caliber Hydrashok

volkstrm
03-15-2006, 19:48
Originally posted by Jungle Work
I carried a Walther P-38 as a side arm in Vietnam for 23 months.
9mms will get the job done if you put the rounds in the right place. Shot Placement is all important in dealing with small arms. I have seen a hard core little sapper take a lung shot with a .50BMG round and still run about a hundred yards and toss a schatel charge into a TOC.
So, the name of the game with pistols and rifles is shot placement.

btw-the folks I shot with a 9mm pistol are still dead.



how did you get a p-38 to vietnam?the p-38 still killing communust,thats great.

Halojumper
03-16-2006, 20:20
Originally posted by volkstrm
how did you get a p-38 to vietnam?the p-38 still killing communust,thats great.

He probably picked it up there. There was a lot of stuff floating around from prior wars and countries.

Cav
03-20-2006, 20:45
The 9MM works well. It will stop as good as any round, maybe better than some in FMJ.

The .45 can have penitration issues. No penitration, no major wound, no death. 7 rounds in a gunfight goes quick, 15 will give you a chance.

In my Unit we all carried M9's and whatever other weapons we needed. Used Beretta mags with Wolff extra power springs (not the Checkmate brand). Had no issues other than a few clearing barrels shot in OIF I/II. Great for working in bulidings.

I will take a .380 or .45 on the streets in the USA, but a 15 shot 9MM does well in Iraq for me.

matsig
03-21-2006, 10:35
My dad carried a Lugar in Vietnam!! He picked it up there

BRAVHART
03-24-2006, 03:41
Before I started training Iraqi police I was working at the Major crime unit in baghdad. An iraqi police captain gave me an Remington Rand 1911 with four magazines full of 230FMJ. I carried it in my blackhawk instead of my M9. Its was great. I carried it for about 1 month until some scumbag ******** officer tried to confiscate it on the way to the chow hall one time because it wasnt authorized. So I had to give it away to another Iraqi police friend of mine. I loved that gun. Wish i could have kept it.. I shot it quite a bit at the range at the academy and it worked great. Funny thing is after I got rid of it. I was stopped about a month later by the same damn prick for having a glock 19. This time it was authorized. What a F-stick.

Madis
03-24-2006, 13:54
a few years ago a norwegian gun magazine called Vapenjournalen did a test with various calibers against layers of kevlar (as used in bodyarmor).

Heres how many layers the calibers in question penetrated:


.22LR: 0 layers
.32ACP Silvertip: 0 layers
.32ACP GECO FMJ: 0 layers
.38spec. +P FMJ: 0 layers
.45ACP 230 Fed HS: 0 layers
.45ACP 230 FMJ: 0 layers
.44mag Norma 240 HP: 6 layers
.44mag Fed HS: 7 layers
9mm FFV NATO: 15 layers
9mm (Swedish made) M39B armor piercing FMJ:65 layers
5.54X18PSM (Russian AP round): 49 layers

97BRAVO
03-24-2006, 17:19
Seen a few people shot with various makes of 9mil CONUS never in a deployed environment. The results were enough to make me not own any 9mils. I own and carry the G21. Problem with the 9mil is you have to "mozambique" (head & heart shot) to get them to stay down! The 4 times I have personally seen guys shot with 9mils they did NOT stop aggressive actions fast enough for my taste. The 2 times I have seen people shot with 45s neither of which was center of mass they chilled out real quick! Holding their wounds and crying out for help, "it burns" ,etc... Shot placement is key with the 9mil. And ohh yeah... Its ok to use jhp against non uniformed personnel/tangos.

Personally I like the sig 226/228 more than the 92f but every unit doesn't have it. The Socom 45 is nice but again there are limited numbers avaialble. I say pack the 92f if u must with reliable magazines and put the rounds where they need to be OR use it to back up a shotgun or m4.

My .02

Perka
03-27-2006, 00:40
Originally posted by Madis
a few years ago a norwegian gun magazine called Vapenjournalen did a test with various calibers against layers of kevlar (as used in bodyarmor).

Heres how many layers the calibers in question penetrated:


.22LR: 0 layers
.32ACP Silvertip: 0 layers
.32ACP GECO FMJ: 0 layers
.38spec. +P FMJ: 0 layers
.45ACP 230 Fed HS: 0 layers
.45ACP 230 FMJ: 0 layers
.44mag Norma 240 HP: 6 layers
.44mag Fed HS: 7 layers
9mm FFV NATO: 15 layers
9mm (Swedish made) M39B armor piercing FMJ:65 layers
5.54X18PSM (Russian AP round): 49 layers

One of the main reason the Swedish forces chose Glock is that it is one of the few pistols that could handle our m/39B ammo without cracking.

meeko
04-24-2006, 11:10
Originally posted by Coastietech
If you are asking whether the 9mm round is effective for the military I would say no. The military is bound by the Geneva convention and is not allowed to use JHP rounds. The only rounds the military is allowed to use is FMJ which means there is no expansion in the target and it often over penetrates making it dangerous to anything around the target. As far as 9mm for civilian use I have confidence in it. With the technology that goes into making JHP more efficent and deadly I don't think you will have a problem stopping a bg. Most name brand JHP's are made to expand in and not over penetrate the target. This argument can never be won by either side ion my opinion. Some people believe small and fast are the best answer and yet others think that big and slow is best. I personally carry an XD9 and a G19 because I can shoot better with a 9mm. The best way to stop a threat is shot placement. If you can shoot 9mm better and faster then that would be your best bet. Better to hit the bg with a 9mm then to miss with a .50 cal.

The USAF Security Forces (formerly Security Police) have been issuing 124gr JHP for duty use in the M9 at stateside bases since approximatly 1998-99 time frame. This is not anywhere against the Geneva convention. The FMJ restriction comes I belive from the Hauge agreement but is often referd to as from the Geneva. The AF leadership went to the JHP due to the amount of shootings increased dramaticly from the late 80's to the mid 1990's. The AF leaedership had enough forward thinking to realize this. Its about the only thing they have done right in recentb memory. The AF JAG has determined JHP is legal on stateside bases due to stateside duty being more of a domestic Law Enforcement duty. Now in the future with contractors taking on more and more who knows. The M4's/16 is still issued with NATO ball as well as everywhere overseas.