EMT's w/ concealed firearms?

[Bullmastiff1]

Are there any EMT's out there that have considered carrying a CONCEALED firearm? I'm sure it is against most public and private employer policies, but if you found yourself in a worst case scenario, would you rather lose your job or your life? I am not an EMT, so this does not personally pertain to me, but I am interested in anyone else's opinion or knowledge on this topic.

[emt1581]

I've carried on the rig for years. It's against policy, but certainly not law. Hell, a cop helped fit me with body armor, so they know the risks are a very real part of the job.

-Emt1581

[Bullmastiff1]

I've carried on the rig for years. It's against policy, but certainly not law. Hell, a cop helped fit me with body armor, so they know the risks are a very real part of the job.

I assume you have a concealed carry permit, but are you Act 235 certified? If not, you might want to look into Act 235. You may be in better shape, legally, if you're carrying while on duty as an EMT and are Act 235 certified.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Bullmastiff1
I assume you have a concealed carry permit, but are you Act 235 certified? If not, you might want to look into Act 235. You may be in better shape, legally, if you're carrying while on duty as an EMT and are Act 235 certified.

I have a license to carry firearms. The act 235 is offered at a place where I don't go any more due to safety issues. What all is involved in the course? I have been shooting and competing for years, and am just curious what more I'd learn.

Also, what cost is involved?

-Emt1581

[Bullmastiff1]

I have a license to carry firearms. The act 235 is offered at a place where I don't go any more due to safety issues. What all is involved in the course? I have been shooting and competing for years, and am just curious what more I'd learn.

If you are a seasoned shooter, you won't learn much more as far as firearms. Act 235 is the PA certification to carry a lethal weapon while on duty in the private sector (ex. armed security guard, private detective, body guard, bail enforcement officer, etc.) There are 4 things you have to do to be certified; 1. pass a physical, 2. pass a psych evaluation, 3. pass a State Police background check, 4. pass the 40 hour Act 235 training course from a certified school. Costs involved: cost for your physical; $150-$200 for the psych eval; $104 total to PA State Police; $275 or more for the 40 hour course; cost for 250 rnds of ammo. This is PSP's website for Act 235:
http://www.lethalweapons.state.pa.us/lethalweapons/site/default.asp

[emt1581]

Well I'm volunteer mostly, so technically it's not a private sector situation. Plus my job has nothing to do with having to shoot as a regular part of duty. It's strictly medical. So really there is a slim chance I'd have to use deadly force, but I like knowing the option is there for that one in a gagillion chance I need it!:)

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[Bullmastiff1]

Got a little off the original topic... still interested in hearing if anyone knows of any EMT's that do or have considered carrying a CONCEALED firearm while on duty as an EMT or Paramedic.

[kevin101]

It's been a few years since I worked there but whan I worked for a commercial ambulance company I carried my G23 with an extra mag everyday. It was officially against company policy but I knew of 2 road supervisors that carried also. I would rather lose my job than my life. It was concealed in a fannypak that I placed a roll of tape and a pair of scissors in the front pocket.

[Victory]

I've been running EMS in SEPA for nearly 4 years and i was always under the impression that it was illegal for EMS workers to carry on duty.

The fact that even tactical medics, who do firearms training with the swat teams can't carry on callouts seems to support this

I've personally had my licensure threatened for carrying a 2oz can of OC (which i still carry, just in my pocket instead of on my belt.)

Then again, no one has ever been able to provide me with the actual text of the law.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Victory
I've been running EMS in SEPA for nearly 4 years and i was always under the impression that it was illegal for EMS workers to carry on duty.

The fact that even tactical medics, who do firearms training with the swat teams can't carry on callouts seems to support this

I've personally had my licensure threatened for carrying a 2oz can of OC

Then again, no one has ever been able to provide me with the actual text of the law.

Nope, no law specifically against it. I can't find a law to support this statment because it is not specifically protected (from private policy) either.

I've spoken to a few tactical medics as well and they've told me they do in fact carry a sidearm. Perhaps no rifle, since part of the test is being able to stay below a certain height (I think 10 inches) while crawling through the scene, but the ones I've talked to were all cops so that may have had something to do with it.

-Emt1581

[Victory]

Some of the Tac medics i've talked to (who are private ambulance, not police) do carry sidearms, they just tuck them away in their gear vest and keep it hush.

I breifly scanned the PA EMS Act for the words "weapon" and "firearm" and revealed nothing. I guess my DC freaking out about my pepper spray was unwarranted.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Victory
I breifly scanned the PA EMS Act for the words "weapon" and "firearm" and revealed nothing. I guess my DC freaking out about my pepper spray was unwarranted.

I garantee he/she is a democrat ;)

My captain gave me the same spiel about about not having firearms on company property, but as I said, I'm for the most part volunteer, so go ahead and fire me!...Can't touch my certification or my license to carry no matter how much pissin and moaning they do about it.

Up until a few years ago when the fields were turned into a shopping center, they would hunt, plink, etc frequently right accross from the station.

-Emt1581

[Victory]

Well, this is something i'd like to find out more about. I'm picking up my permit from the sheriffs office tomorrow and while i won't be carrying while working shifts (outside of open carry there's no where to put the gun on my uniform) i'm not planning on taking it off to walk inside the firehouse for social visits or for second emergencies where i'm just running to the station from home and throwing a jumpsuit over my street clothes. (throwing the gun in my gear rack would just be irresponsible)

[emt1581]

Not to hi-jack here, but Victory, what guns do you have to choose from?

Concealability/access has NEVER been an issue for me.

-Emt1581

[Victory]

We wear tucked in police style uniforms which are pretty form fitting, especially since i wear a vest. I also can't ankle carry since between the taper cut of the pants and the size of my boots it's impossible.

Aside from onduty, i'm planning on carrying a G19 in a comp tac ghurka and G26 as a BUG in a Galco Ankle Glove.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Victory
We wear tucked in police style uniforms which are pretty form fitting, especially since i wear a vest. I also can't ankle carry since between the taper cut of the pants and the size of my boots it's impossible.

I'm planning on carrying a G19 in a comp tac ghurka and G26 as a BUG in a Galco Ankle Glove.

Ok, then I really have no advice for carrying other than a vest holster (not sure if you wear body armor while on duty) or smartcarry.

I pocket carry either a S&W 649 or P3AT in my front pocket and haven't had any issues of any kind.

-Emt1581

[Victory]

I do wear a vest on duty. Unfortunately the shirt was sized for me without the vest on (no one else here wears a vest), so my G26 in a vest holster would look like a freaking tumor.

I already carry too much crap in my pockets to pocket carry. OC takes up the weak side pocket and keys take up the left (since i never keep anything in the same pocket as the OC)

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Victory
I do wear a vest on duty. Unfortunately the shirt was sized for me without the vest on (no one else here wears a vest), so my G26 in a vest holster would look like a freaking tumor.

Smartcarry?

-Emt1581

[Victory]

Smart carry would probably be difficult with the vest and gear belt getting in the way of the draw. I'm not so concerned with carrying in uniform.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Victory
Smart carry would probably be difficult with the vest getting in the way of the draw. I'm not so concerned with carrying in uniform.

Ok but why not carry while in uniform?

-Emt1581

[Victory]

i just have nowhere to put the thing.

[emt1581]

And you can't invest in another, more concealable firearm?

-Emt1581

[Victory]

I can make a concious decision to put my gun in the safe before doing a scheduled shift, but responding there i'm likely to have my gun on me. This is why i'm interested in the legalities, not so much where to put my gun.

[JGinzo]

Where I work is a pretty dangerous area. There are some parts of the city I wouldn't go unless I had a reason to like a fire or EMS call. But I wouldn't risk my career, pension, and possible jail time to carry concealed on duty. It's just not worth it.

Personally if we are dispatched to ANYTHING of a potentially violent nature we will stage a few blocks away until SO can clear the scene for us. I couldn't care less if the entire house burned down to the foundation or if someone bled to death, if I think it's gonna get me 86'ed I wait for the cops, and I got 24 hours to wait.

And this goes for something as simple as a minor domestic to a stabbing or shooting.

[G21FAN]

Most always during my 15 years. Didn't give a damn about company policy or state EMS law prohibiting. They can't arrest me, only fire me so I figured I WILL take care of myself because ambulance companies sure as hell won't. Saved my partner's life and mine on two separate occaisions without a shot fired or managers being the wiser to it.

[Victory]

Originally posted by JGinzo
Personally if we are dispatched to ANYTHING of a potentially violent nature we will stage a few blocks away until SO can clear the scene for us. I couldn't care less if the entire house burned down to the foundation or if someone bled to death, if I think it's gonna get me 86'ed I wait for the cops, and I got 24 hours to wait.

And this goes for something as simple as a minor domestic to a stabbing or shooting.

What about a "sick person" or "unknown medical"?

1) cops don't always show up to every call
2) It's never the call you'd expect.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Victory
What about a "sick person" or "unknown medical"?

1) cops don't always show up to every call
2) It's never the call you'd expect.

+1 Good point. I agree!

I've already been dispatched to a few calls that started out as "unknown medical" and ended up being assaults, domestics, etc.

-Emt1581

[JGinzo]

What about a "sick person" or "unknown medical"?

1) cops don't always show up to every call
2) It's never the call you'd expect.

Ok I guess we can play the "what if..." game until the cows come home. Look I have been in those situations that have turned ugly. It also comes down to situational awareness. Merely carrying a concealed weapon does nothing for you if you have forgotten other things like making sure that there is a way out for you, or keeping a safe distance from people when first appraoching them, etc.

Again I can "what if" all day long. It still won't make my job easier to carry concealed on the job, especially when the clientele I serve immediately associates gun=cop.

PLus, it's still not worth me losing evrything and going to jail over it.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by JGinzo
What about a "sick person" or "unknown medical"?

1) cops don't always show up to every call
2) It's never the call you'd expect.

Ok I guess we can play the "what if..." game until the cows come home. Look I have been in those situations that have turned ugly. It also comes down to situational awareness. Merely carrying a concealed weapon does nothing for you if you have forgotten other things like making sure that there is a way out for you, or keeping a safe distance from people when first appraoching them, etc.

Again I can "what if" all day long. It still won't make my job easier to carry concealed on the job, especially when the clientele I serve immediately associates gun=cop.

PLus, it's still not worth me losing evrything and going to jail over it.

Ok, the jail part I can understand, and I agree.

But you make it seem like you have to carry a gun on your hip. Remember concealed means CONCEALED!;)

About the "way out" reason...it takes a few secs to draw and shoot if you are rusty or a thug. A way out ain't doin squat for ya. You may have been lucky in these situations but luck will get you just so far.

Again, don't break the law!!!:)

-Emt1581

[Bullmastiff1]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I'm not an EMT, but was still curious about the topic. I've thought about getting my EMT certification just to have it and because my Dept. is looking for EMT certified officers for the Hostage Rescue Team. If I would decide I wanted to go that route, the option would be open. Something else that crossed my mind was that if I were to get certified, I should work part time as an EMT to keep my skills sharp. The problem with that would be, working full time in corrections and part time in law enforcement, I come in contact and deal with a lot of felons. Therefore, it would be very likely that I would run into someone (that I have dealt with or locked up), as an EMT out on the street. Of course I already have 1 1/2 jobs (40-80 hrs/wk), 3 college classes, a wife, 3 kids, 2 dogs, and 2 cats, so I'm not sure if I have any time left to work as an EMT.

[Medic08]

I've been toatin around a pistol for years on the job. I am pretty sure in PA if you get caught your certs can be pulled.

[emt1581]

Originally posted by Medic08
I've been toatin around a pistol for years on the job. I am pretty sure in PA if you get caught your certs can be pulled.

Not a chance ;)

Since it really can't be proven that you can carry, feel free to prove you can't.

Thanks

-Emt1581

[oldcop1971]

I've worked on two private ambulance companies. The first one was rural with many runs into Birmingham hospitals. The ambulance crews were usually better armed than the police were. In fact, we loaned some "ambulance guns" to the cops one night during a sniper situation.
The other company was in Birmingham, night shift 1800-0600. They frowned on guns on company property, much less on the trucks. I never was too worried about the calls, but the night life critters had me worried when we'd stop at a waffle house or stop and rob during the shift. We did have a drunk woman run up to the truck one night complaining about someone stealing her purse. I'm like, duh, we're an ambulance, not the PO-lice!
They didn't pay enough to get hurt or killed because I could not exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. I no longer work on an ambulance, and probably won't again because of 1. low pay in alabama and 2. i'm not going to injure myself picking up some 400 lb lardass and be disabled for the rest of my life.