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cl147
02-27-2006, 12:37
I was hoping you guys could shed a little light on a rumor I'd heard recently about ISP's Troopers having problems with their Glock 22's.

The types of problems were not specified, but it was mentioned that the guys were not happy with the transition and actually wanted their Beretta 96's back.

Any information is greatly appreciated. :)

TLHelmer
02-27-2006, 17:02
It is true some of us are having problems with the new G-22's. I have had about six FTF's in 900 rounds. Others cannot get through a mag without a several FTF's in each mag.

Glock is acting like they are working on the problem, but if they are they are not doing it quickly. They also made a mistake in handling at first when they said it was a limp wristing problem. They stuck to that until some of our best shooters Instructors, Emergency Response Team continuued to have the FTF in large numbers.

I am carrying my G-22, but would feel better if they would figure out the problem. I felt fine with it when I finished transition. But, I found out from one of our instructors that some Troops that didn't have problems during transition were starting to have problems later. Two Troopers at my district are refusing to carry the Glock because of the malfuntions and kept their Beretta's.

I read an article in Guns and Ammo that the LAPD sent their Glocks back for a different type of problem.

Snowman92D
02-27-2006, 20:40
Glock Perfection....what can you say? ^b

cl147
02-27-2006, 21:14
TLHelmer,
Thank you for your response. I'm sure this is a big let-down for you guys. The two troopers I'd talked to last year were excited about the change.

FTF's...Could it be a possible magazine or locking problem?

Snowman, thank you for your informative contribution to this thread. ;)

rhino465
02-27-2006, 23:59
It's unfortunate they didn't issue G17s instead. Easier to shoot, cheaper to feed, the most reliable of the Glock breed and least likely to KABOOM. Too bad the LEO world is infatuated with the .40S&W!

DCSO0322
02-28-2006, 00:55
I don't know about newer Glocks but my father has carried a G22 since 1998, and I have Carried a G35 since 1999 and neither of us have had a single malfunction with either weapon through thousands of rounds.

TLHelmer
02-28-2006, 04:41
The latest news is that it may be a locking block issue. The dept. sent the guns that had the most problems back to Glock and they said the locking block was on the extreme end of the specs.

A lot of us were excited about the change. I have been a Glock fan for years. On a side note, at my district the overall shooting scores went up.

Snowman92D
02-28-2006, 06:19
Did they get you guys the factory 5.5 trigger, or a New York variant...?

mpholic
02-28-2006, 07:34
Originally posted by rhino465
the most reliable of the Glock breed and least likely to KABOOM.

That statement in general could be applied to any manufactueres 9mm models compared to their .40S&W models

As others have said I have been shooting Glock .40S&W models for may years and have never had a problem with functioning or a KB. This includes a wide range of different ammo ranging form very expensive SD ammo to my own reloads and everything in between.

The ISP experience with their Glock 22s is unfortunate. I would have hoped that any wepons Glock sent to a military unit or LE unit would be double QC checked. Apparently that is not the case. I hope Glock wakes and smells the coffee on this one.

cl147
02-28-2006, 08:06
I hope Glock wakes and smells the coffee on this one.
I agree with this statement.

TLHelmer
02-28-2006, 18:41
We have the standard 5.5 lb trigger.

I will be completely secure once they have determined what the problem is and fix it.

sjstill
02-28-2006, 19:43
Even though it could be considered a bad pun, I think the Glock 40 S&W kB's are way overblown. This is coming from someone who HAS kB'd a G22.

I like and respect Rhino, but if Glocks kB'd the way he is intimating, NO LE would be using them.

When will this horse die??

TL, I hope the problem gets resolved in a timely manner. Keep us informed, please.

rhino465
02-28-2006, 20:47
Originally posted by sjstill
I like and respect Rhino, but if Glocks kB'd the way he is intimating, NO LE would be using them.


Dude, I wasn't implying a .40 glock is a time bomb in your holster waiting to go off.

I was, instead, praising the Glock 17. It's a better gun in what I believe to be a more sensible caliber for almost all useful purposes beyond gun games.

I also wasn't implying that Glock .40s are the only guns with potential kaboom problems, but exactly what I said: the G17 is the least likely Glock to have such problems compared to other Glocks. It may not happen often, but it has and will in the future, and it will almost assuredly be with .40s and .45s, not the 9mms.

My primary criticism is that of the wholesale migration from 9mm to .40. The real differences in terminal ballistics between modern 9mm JHP ammunition and the .40 is minimal at best. For almost everyone, the 9mm is easier to shoot quickly with acceptable accuracy, especially in a light weight gun like a Glock. Ammunition is a lot cheaper, especially ball ammo practice in 9mm.

The adoption of the .40 by most police departments across the country was like dominoes falling or Lemmings jumping off cliffs. It wouldn't be such a big deal if the average cop was a better shooter, but they aren't. Giving them a .40 when their skills are marginal (at best) with a 9mm is not a great idea in my opinion.

I don't doubt that qualification scores went up when the switch from Berettas to Glocks happened, but that's more of a function of the platform than the round. A .40 Glock is easier to shoot than a .40 or 9mm Beretta for most people, but a 9mm Glock is better still.

So don't get all excited because I'm bashing .40 Glocks, because I'm not. I just think the 9mm Glocks are a better choice, especially for big police departments.

But what do I know?

Snowman92D
03-04-2006, 07:59
Originally posted by rhino465
The real differences in terminal ballistics between modern 9mm JHP ammunition and the .40 is minimal at best.

I just think the 9mm Glocks are a better choice, especially for big police departments.

But what do I know?

Don't disagree with you in the main, Rhino. But I do take exception to the "minimal" differences between the two calibers. I've attended LE-related autopsies with great regularity for the past 25 years. When you're talking premium jhp ammo in both calibers, the woundtracks in a torso from a .40 S&W jhp are usually larger and much easier to follow than those from a 9mm. .40's usually leave a bloodshot trail that you can track, and the 9mm's don't often do that.

Not to say that a quality 9mm jhp is any sort of a slouch, mind you, but a .40 S&W wound is certainly more destructive. The difference between a .40 S&W and a .45 ACP often is hard to see (at least for me), but there's a noticeable difference between a 9mm and a .40, and I'd personally never describe it as "minimal". It's just an observation, though, since neither are as destructive as .44 magnums and a lot of the .357 magnum loads. Those things really trash tissue.

This still doesn't mitigate the need to hit well during a gunfight, as you've noted. I often think that the bulk of the people we're getting in LE work these days would be better off armed with a 9mm and some good quality ammo.

rhino465
03-04-2006, 18:53
All handgun calibers (that are practical for personal defense use) are wimpy. That's what I meant by minimal difference. I don't see a big difference between 9mm and .45ACP either. They're both anemic compared to a rifle or shotgun.

kahrcarrier
03-05-2006, 07:33
Huh. This is the first I have heard of this.

Very interesting and a bit surprising, and I hope the problem gets rectified soon.

On a side note; I just want to point out how it is possible to discuss firearms on this board from different points of view and not have it turn into a flame-fest.....

rhino465, Snowman92D, sjstill, cl147, and all the rest of you,; this thread is a class act. ;c

rhino465
03-06-2006, 02:24
Ordinarily I'd be significantly more disrespectful and rude, but I know sjstill will kick my a**! ;f

sjstill
03-06-2006, 06:02
;z ;z ;z

I was going to post something like "Your maternal parental unit wears footgear that would be best suited to MOUT or other similar endeavors", but it took too much thought and made my brain hurt. ;e

Yeah, this did have the potential to go south. Glad it didn't.

KSFreeman
03-06-2006, 06:20
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earf and a younger KSFreeman was selling guns at Galyan's when the G22 and 23 came out, we had the exact same problem with Glock 40s (or is it for-dees?).

One would expect Glock to solve this problem is the last 15 years!;P

rhino465
03-08-2006, 16:20
You can't improve on perfection!

;f

KSFreeman
03-09-2006, 11:25
rhino, that's what our rep at Galyan's said. Basically the 'tude was coming from Herr Glock.

He simply could not accept the notion that his perfect paper weapon had teething problems when they went S&W with their line and made the pistol in a multitude of flavors. "Mein waffe es perfecten!"

I did/do not understand why every friggin' tool has to do every job now.

The Glock 17 is such an excellent weapon, why not leave it alone? Oh, well, such is the way of the world.

rhino465
03-09-2006, 11:55
Jawol, Herr Freemensch!

TLHelmer
03-30-2006, 16:51
The last information I posted on this was that Glock was going to examine some of the guns that are having problems. They did and determined that it might be a locking block (out of Specs) problem. They sent about 30 guns back from a new run of G-22's.

They tested them on up in Indy on Wednesday 3/29 with the intent to send the same guns back to some of the districts for further T&E. I was one of the lucky ones who was going to get to test the guns today. I got a call last night telling me that the guns didn't pass the tests in Indy and that they would not be sending them out to the districts for further testing. Out of the thirty guns they sent us 20 had serious malfunction problems.

Today, A Glock engineer came to Indy from Austria to evaluate their guns since we are still having problems. Apparently he denied there was a problem until the gun malfunctioned on him as well. Rumor has it that they only have a short time to determine what the problem is and respond before our dept. decides to switch weapon manufacturers. In fact I have heard that they are already in the process in case Glock doesn't respond appropriately.

I love Glocks and it would be great if they would figure this out and correct it ASAP.

RF7126
03-30-2006, 18:59
http://www.px4storm.com/dati/ContentManager/images/px4/01.jpg

? ;) :supergrin:

TLHelmer
03-30-2006, 19:10
Beretta soured our relationship with their response to the cracked rails. That is what prompted us to switch in the first place.

kfoley
03-30-2006, 19:40
Originally posted by KSFreeman
(or is it for-dees?).

I believe it's fo-tee, at least that's what it said when I looked in the dictionary.

On a serious note though, it would be disappointing for the ISP to switch manufactuers. However, if Glock doesn't take care of the problem I can't blame them.

minuteman32
03-30-2006, 20:47
If they do switch, I hope they go w/ Sig, like they almost did when they originally went w/ Berreta!

Since ISP has already invested in the leather, maybe they should just concider going w/ the 17 or 19, though. (What am I thinking? A government agancy actually trying to SAVE money!):freak:

rhino465
03-30-2006, 22:05
Wait! They can't go to the G17! It would be 100% reliable, almost indestructible, and easier to shoot well. It just makes too much sense! :supergrin:

RF7126
03-30-2006, 23:50
Another vote for Sig here too. I wasn't aware of the problem with Beretta before, I'm kinda disappointed with them now. :frown:

TLHelmer
03-31-2006, 05:02
The Armorer I spoke to last night about this problem said that they discussed going to the Springfield Armory XD-45 if Glock didn't fix the problem. I like the .45, but I prefer the trigger on the Glock. That may be because I am use to it.

They ruled out the .45 earlier because the Glock .45 was thought to be too thick in the grip for our female Troops and small handed male Troops. The XD-45 is as thin as a G-22.

TLHelmer
03-31-2006, 05:08
The head firearms instructor said they wont go back to the 9mm "because that would be a step back from the .40" I don't agree with this, but I would rather carry 13 rounds of .45 than 17 rounds of 9mm.

When we looked at Sig this last time it was determined that they were too expensive.:upeyes:

Patrick Graham
03-31-2006, 10:28
Originally posted by TLHelmer
Beretta soured our relationship with their response to the cracked rails. That is what prompted us to switch in the first place.

I missed the Beretta part.. What happend?? was it with 92's or 96's ??? What did/didn't Beretta do?

Justice23
03-31-2006, 12:15
Great...I just ordered a new one.

I hope Glock straightens this out quickly.

TLHelmer
03-31-2006, 14:30
The frame rails were cracking with only a few thousand rounds and Beretta denied they had a problem.

B Coyote
03-31-2006, 17:03
Any updates?

Has Glock handled the problem to ISP's liking?

Thanks,
bc

MakeMineaP99
03-31-2006, 23:24
Originally posted by B Coyote
Any updates?

Has Glock handled the problem to ISP's liking?

Thanks,
bc

Hey B Coyote,

Have not seen you around these parts for a while; good to see you back.

Sorry for the hijack... we now return to the the orginal thread.

Dan

TLHelmer
04-01-2006, 06:25
B Coyote,

We are still waiting to hear from Glock.

B Coyote
04-01-2006, 07:14
Originally posted by MakeMineaP99
Hey B Coyote,

Have not seen you around these parts for a while; good to see you back.

Sorry for the hijack... we now return to the the orginal thread.

Dan
It's good to be remembered. :)

I've been on www.AR15Armory.com for awhile, and before that, I lurked quite a bit.

How have you been?

bc

B Coyote
04-01-2006, 07:15
TLHelmer,
Thanks for your reply. Looks like Glock is dropping the ball on this one....shame on them.

bc

MakeMineaP99
04-01-2006, 21:17
Originally posted by B Coyote
It's good to be remembered. :)

I've been on www.AR15Armory.com for awhile, and before that, I lurked quite a bit.

How have you been?

bc

We would never forget you, bc. Glad to hear your doing fine, things haven't changed much with me.

Dan

B Coyote
04-01-2006, 21:20
Originally posted by MakeMineaP99
We would never forget you, bc. Glad to hear your doing fine, things haven't changed much with me.

Dan
Sometimes a lack of change is a GOOD thing. :) I know I like things a comfortable "same".

bc

TLHelmer
04-06-2006, 18:36
Right now it looks like we may be switching to the Glock 17! They are looking at the Speer 124 gr. +p Gold dot ot the Speer 147 gr. Gold dot.

We are still waiting on the decision to be made.

B Coyote
04-06-2006, 18:47
Originally posted by TLHelmer
Right now it looks like we may be switching to the Glock 17! They are looking at the Speer 124 gr. +p Gold dot ot the Speer 147 gr. Gold dot.

We are still waiting on the decision to be made.
That's EXCELLENT news!!

I wonder how long it will be before someone says you'll be going "down" in your choice?

Please, keep us posted.

Regards,
bc

TLHelmer
04-06-2006, 19:13
It has already been said by several of the Troops I supervise. To some going to the 9mm is a step backwards.

B Coyote
04-06-2006, 19:15
Well, didn't you guys have very good luck with the 9mm in your Beretta 92's when you issued that gun/caliber?

bc

sjstill
04-06-2006, 19:20
Well, it sounds like a smart decision, at least.

So, are any of your Troops going to field a team for the GSSF Match at Eagle Creek in June???

B Coyote
04-06-2006, 19:23
Originally posted by sjstill
Well, it sounds like a smart decision, at least.

I'll agree. Personally, I think the .40 is the most over-rated, over-hyped caliber in existance today. YMMV, and probably does.

bc

TLHelmer
04-07-2006, 05:16
SJSTILL


I dont know if we have a team. When is it?

sjstill
04-07-2006, 06:05
June 17-18. IIRC, all you need for a team is 3 guys (or gals).

www.gssfonline.com has all the info on registration.

Its a pretty fun time, lot of nice folks show up to shoot.

Just as much social event as match:supergrin:

rhino465
04-07-2006, 12:57
I briefly spoke to a couple of ISP troopers at Darrel's in Cayuga today. I asked them about the Glock 22 problems, and he told me pretty much what I'd learned here. I mentioned we'd been discussing it online. He asked me where, so I told him about the clubhouse, so we may have a new member soon.

INTrooper4255
04-07-2006, 13:34
New member here! I have discussed this same issue for a while now with B Coyote over on AR15Armory.com and he told me that this thread was going on. I personally own two Glocks, a G26 that I carry as a backup and a G29 that I carried as an off-duty a while back. I do have to say that I am one that had problems with my issued G22 and for the first two days of transition, I had numerous malfunctions.
I was a Glock fan up to this point, but with the way that Glock has dealt with this issue, I will never purchase another Glock handgun and I was extremely dissapointed to hear that we were changing to the G17. Not only do I think that it is a huge mistake to stay with Glock, I think that it is a bigger mistake to backslide to the 9mm, and nearly every trooper that I have spoke with has agreed with this.
One thing that I don't think that was brought up was that with the 150 G22's that Glock sent our department to try since they "fixed" the problem had a 55.5% failure rate after 5,000 rounds! I've heard our instructors say, "But the G17 is a great weapon and we only had 2 malfunctions when we tested them after thousands of rounds." This really doesn't mean that much to me because I will never trust another Glock completely again. I will always wonder not if, but when is it going to malfunction. I guess our department didn't do their research and see all of the problems that the Illinois State Police had with their Glocks and from what I understand, Glock never really fixed the problem there. But, then again, everything that we do is based on low bid and you get what you pay for. There are some things that you just don't skimp on!

rhino465
04-07-2006, 13:53
Welcome to the clubhouse!

TLHelmer
04-07-2006, 18:50
The official memo came out last night. We are switching to the Glock 17. I believe we are going to the Speer Gold-dot 124 gr. +p, but that was not in the memo. We will not be switching back even if they fix the G-22's.

Greetings INTrooper4255 welcome to the board.

INTrooper4255
04-07-2006, 19:15
Originally posted by TLHelmer
The official memo came out last night. We are switching to the Glock 17. I believe we are going to the Speer Gold-dot 124 gr. +p, but that was not in the memo. We will not be switching back even if they fix the G-22's.

Greetings INTrooper4255 welcome to the board.

Yeah, I was talking to one of our instructors today and he said that he thought that the ammo would be the 124 gr +P Gold Dot also (He said that was what the instructors asked for anyway). I just hope that they stay away from the 147 gr. subsonic like last time.

B Coyote
04-07-2006, 21:11
The 124+P Gold Dot is an excellent load...It should serve the citizens of Indiana well. ;)

rhino465
04-07-2006, 22:14
That's what I carry when I carry a 9mm.

TLHelmer
04-08-2006, 06:58
Iam sure it will work fine. I am partial to Winchester Ranger's which is what we used prior to switching to the Gold-dot's. We had several shootings with the 165 gr. Rangers and they worked great.

S. Kelly
04-08-2006, 10:45
All the problems seem to be centered around the G22, why not go to the G23? My dept issues the G23 and G27 (180 gr Gold Dot duty ammo) and have had no problems at all since we transitioned to them in '98.

TLHelmer
04-08-2006, 14:06
They didn't even consider it as far as I know.

KSFreeman
04-09-2006, 13:57
I'm glad that ISP read my posts on this thread and realized their error. I just wish more of the world would listen to me.:supergrin:

I carry the 115 gr. from Black Hills for my bug Kahr P9 in 9mm. Got to dig that Gold Dot bullet.

S. Kelly, I would imagine it is because the problems that plagued the G22 are the same problems that plague all the Glock fortays to this day. We had rotten luck with the 23 and 27 when they came out as well. (However, it is my opinion [and you know what opinions are like] that the problem in the 23 and 27 were traced to the bullet setback in the fortay and not so much because of design like the 22).

4255, welcome to Glock Talk and the Indiana §.

B Coyote
04-09-2006, 14:01
I'm glad that ISP read my first post on this thread and realized their error. I just wish more of the world would listen to me.


All guns should be 9mm.
All 9mm's should be Glocks.
All Glocks should be G19's.
James Yeager
Or in this case G17's. ;)

bc

minuteman32
04-11-2006, 17:36
I'd heard that the problem doesn't seem to be from the guns. The problem seems to be a power struggle w/ in the ISP. Someone I spoke w/ today said that they had fired the very G22's w/ the alleged problems. This person fired about 1000 rounds through the guns w/o a single malfunction. "All" the malfunctions could be attributed to "limp wristing" or similar "operator errors". This evidently didn't go to well w/ some, as they were the ISP & "know how to shoot".
Most of the ISP were happy or neutral on the issue of going w/ the G22 and had 0 malfunctions w/ them. Some are okay w/ the G17. A minority are unhappy w/ Glock. Period. Most of our Troopers could really care less what they are issued, they just want something that works!
Good luck ISP. I personally think y'all are the most profesional LE agency in the state. I am a little biased, as you were the folks we'd call if we had a problem in the middle of the night on our farm. Nothing wrong w/ our Sheriff, just the only deputy on duty might me on the other side of the county & the Trooper would probably get there quicker.

RF7126
04-11-2006, 20:01
I don't think you're biased minuteman, I'd even go so far as to say that ISP is one of the most professional departments in the country at the patrol level.

rhino465
04-11-2006, 20:53
Originally posted by minuteman32
I'd heard that the problem doesn't seem to be from the guns. The problem seems to be a power struggle w/ in the ISP.


I get the opposite impression, that it is a problem with the guns. The trooper with whom I spoke last week told me his personal gun was not one with problems, but that the problems were real. He told me they could actually predict when the malfunctions would occur while shooting the guns. I'm not sure how that works, but I have no reason to doubt him.

Application of Occam's Razor leads me to look at the problems being real, rather than looking for some other agenda.

What do our resident troopers have to say about it?

Agrippa
04-13-2006, 06:14
Originally posted by INTrooper4255
Yeah, I was talking to one of our instructors today and he said that he thought that the ammo would be the 124 gr +P Gold Dot also (He said that was what the instructors asked for anyway). I just hope that they stay away from the 147 gr. subsonic like last time.


If I may ask, were the problems with the 147 grain or the brand? I was under the impression that the Winchester Ranger 147 HP was a good round.

INTrooper4255
04-13-2006, 07:44
Originally posted by Agrippa
If I may ask, were the problems with the 147 grain or the brand? I was under the impression that the Winchester Ranger 147 HP was a good round.

We used the Federal 147 gr Hydra Shok at the time. It is just the fact that the 147 grain rounds have the worst street record and are known for their over penetration issues. I know that the ammo has come a long wat since then, but there is better ammo out there than the 147 gr loads.

sparky315
04-13-2006, 13:05
Look at the Federal 124-grain Tactical load. We have had excellent results in shootings with it. It's not rated as +P, but it's gotta be close. Very accurate and reliable out of all of our guns. The 124-grain +P Gold Dot is a good load as well, but Speer changed the jacket thickness of a lot of the Gold Dot bullets when they changed hands. Some of the wunderkind engineers figured they could save a penny a bullet or so by doing this, and it changed how the bullets perform.

INTrooper4255
04-13-2006, 13:23
Supposedly they are doing ammunition testing as we speak. Who knows what their standards or methods of evaluations are?

TLHelmer
04-13-2006, 18:26
They tested bullets Thursday 04/13/06. I have not heard what the results were. INTrooper 4255,Let me know if you hear.

INTrooper4255
04-13-2006, 18:48
Originally posted by TLHelmer
They tested bullets Thursday 04/13/05. I have not heard what the results were. INTrooper 4255,Let me know if you hear.

I just read the memo that they were going to be testing. One of our instructors here at the Versailles post has been very active in this. If I hear thing, I will share!

Skpotamus
04-16-2006, 20:27
I have a quick Q for the officers on board here, is it true you guys were shooting lead reloads during your qualifications and practice sessions?

thanks

INTrooper4255
04-16-2006, 22:19
Originally posted by Skpotamus
I have a quick Q for the officers on board here, is it true you guys were shooting lead reloads during your qualifications and practice sessions?

thanks

Not for the Indiana State Police, we were using our duty ammo, CCI 180 grain Gold Dot.

Snowman92D
04-19-2006, 08:27
Ugh.....heard that the committee decided to recommend the 147-grain 9mm Gold Dot as the ISP's service round.

sjstill
04-19-2006, 08:59
Snowman!! How the heck are you?

INTrooper4255
04-19-2006, 09:51
Originally posted by Snowman92D
Ugh.....heard that the committee decided to recommend the 147-grain 9mm Gold Dot as the ISP's service round.


PLEASE tell me that you are joking! But, for some reason that wouldn't suprise me in the least bit.:upeyes:

Snowman92D
04-19-2006, 13:24
Sad to say, I'm not joking. It's just the recommendation from the committee at this point, so I'm hoping the superintendent will have sense enough to over-ride it. Not sure what 9mm load they used when he was at Ft. Wayne PD. The "committee" is dominated by jello testers, and the 147-grain Gold Dot expanded slightly bigger in jello than the 124-grain +P Gold Dot. In all other jello "barrier" tests the two rounds pentrated/expanded about the same. Apparently some folks are convinced that jello testing is the be all/end all in bullet selection.

I'm dismayed to hear this because Chicago PD is currently in the process of phasing out the 147-grain Gold Dot (which they've used a long time) and replacing it with with the 124-grain +P Gold Dot. The 147-grain GD just didn't expand reliably through people and didn't impact with enough effect to take the BG's out of the fight with a shot or two. You can figure that Chicago PD had ample experience with the load, but then that doesn't hold a candle to jello tests in some folks minds. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the street effectiveness of the 124-grain +P version. Still, if the troopers do their part the 147-grain GD will do it's part. We used to use .38 Special 158-grain +P jsp's at IPD years ago, and it was "adequate" if sure to zip T&T on torso hits.

I think that somebody ought to check, though, and see statistically how often our road-dog troopers are attacked by laboratory jello blocks.

Steve...you, you, you male equivalent to a $2 horizontal jezebel, you. How be ya...? :)

INTrooper4255
04-19-2006, 13:37
Originally posted by Snowman92D
Sad to say, I'm not joking. It's just the recommendation from the committee at this point, so I'm hoping the superintendent will have sense enough to over-ride it. Not sure what 9mm load they used when he was at Ft. Wayne PD. The "committee" is dominated by jello testers, and the 147-grain Gold Dot expanded slightly bigger in jello than the 124-grain +P Gold Dot. In all other jello "barrier" tests the two rounds pentrated/expanded about the same. Apparently some folks are convinced that jello testing is the be all/end all in bullet selection.

I'm dismayed to hear this because Chicago PD is currently in the process of phasing out the 147-grain Gold Dot (which they've used a long time) and replacing it with with the 124-grain +P Gold Dot. The 147-grain GD just didn't expand reliably through people and didn't impact with enough effect to take the BG's out of the fight with a shot or two. You can figure that Chicago PD had ample experience with the load, but then that doesn't hold a candle to jello tests in some folks minds. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the street effectiveness of the 124-grain +P version. Still, if the troopers do their part the 147-grain GD will do it's part. We used to use .38 Special 158-grain +P jsp's at IPD years ago, and it was "adequate" if sure to zip T&T on torso hits.

I think that somebody ought to check, though, and see statistically how often our road-dog troopers are attacked by laboratory jello blocks.

Steve...you, you, you male equivalent to a $2 horizontal jezebel, you. How be ya...? :)


I wonder if they even looked at actual street results from the ammunition tested??????

RF7126
04-19-2006, 17:11
I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about 147g vs. something lighter but would a 147 go through a windshield better? Perhaps retain its trajectory and/or velocity better?

TLHelmer
04-19-2006, 17:54
called me today to tell me about the decision. It seems like we are going back to the problem we tried to get away from when we went to the .40!

I appreciate the information Snowman, but I wish they had come to another decision.

INTrooper4255
04-19-2006, 18:32
Originally posted by TLHelmer
called me today to tell me about the decision. It seems like we are going back to the problem we tried to get away from when we went to the .40!

I appreciate the information Snowman, but I wish they had come to another decision.

Isn't it great how they come up with these decisions. I love how the people making these choices aren't really the ones having to stake their lives on this equipment every day!

Snowman92D
04-20-2006, 10:32
Punching through an automobile windshield is a mixed bag. In the first place, a handgun will never do the job that a one ounce 12-gauge rifled slug will do. Then too, defeating laminated auto glass successfully is often a matter of kinetic impact energy and bullet weight and construction. The 124-grain +P Gold Dot usually does a better job on windshields than the 147-grain Gold Dot does, simply because it's a middle-weight bullet and carrying more kinetic striking energy than the 147's typically develop. At least in all the glass-testing I've ever seen. But, you can rig a lab test to arrive at whatever conclusion you desire...and the 147-grain subsonic load is the long-time darling of all the laboratory academics. So if the ammo committee's info was dominated by lab results, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Will a 147-grain 9mm jhp work okay? You betcha. If you need to limit yourself to a standard-pressure 9mm jhp, then the modern, better-engineered designs of the 147-grain are as good as it gets, truthfully. It was noted during the committee meeting that the 147-grain Gold Dot recoils less than the 124+P version does...and that this is a plus for the IBT's (Itty Bitty Troopers). I suppose that's so, but then I thought the IBT's were able to handle the harder-kicking .40 S&W loads okay. True...? If you can control a .40 caliber load out of a service pistol, you should be able to control a 124-grain +P 9mm load also. Perhaps ISP should take a tip from the Delaware State Police who generally issue the .357 Sig Gold Dot, but also maintain and issue the standard-pressure 147-grain GD for their IBT's who shoot better with it.

Please understand that the last thing I want to do is cause anyone to not have faith in their equipment. I've been a metro police officer for 34 years and I've taught officer survival not only locally but across the U.S. for a long, long time. I personally don't care for the 147-grain subsonic 9mm loads, chiefly because of their low recoil. That lower recoil certainly is a plus for "challenged" shooters during training, but it also means that the subsonic cartridge generates less rearward slide velocity as the pistol cycles. Recoil-operated pistols need something solid to kick against, plus nicely-lubed slides and enough rearward oomph on the slide to make the gun's mechanism function and stay in action.

That normally ain't a problem during training on the square range...where everbody's remembering to keep their elbows and wrists consistently locked, so that the recoil-operated pistol has something solid to recoil against. But during the hurly-burly of a gunfight, when the shooter may be turning, twisting and shoving as he shoots, it's a whole 'nother smoke. Here in Marion County, we had a few occasions when an officer had to draw his weapon while pushing off an attacker and fire his subsonic 9mm across or under his own arm. A shirt or coat sleeve would be in the way, and that little bit of extra friction was too much for the sluggish 147-grain subsonic slide velocity to overcome...and the gun would stove-pipe.

Happily, in every case the involved officer would clear the malfunction and prevail in the fight, but it sure was enough to make every street cop a trifle nervous. That presented a large and continuing problem as the 147-grain subsonic is (as previously noted) the darling of the lab-coat brigade and they, with their now-defunct IWBA, all-too-often had the ear of police admin types. IPD dealt with this problem for a time by having Federal Cartridge custom-load a slightly hotter 147-grain 9mm service load cataloged as XM9MS using the old-style deeper cavity 9MS-1 bullet. That load worked great, but was hard on the old-style locking blocks in IPD's then-issue Berettas. Thus the change to the more durable Glocks.

If there's a happy note in all this, it's that CCI/Speer can be relied on to load their premium ammo just as hot as it's advertised. You don't have to worry so much about their production lots of ammo having velocities 50-to-75 fps slower than their book velocity. That's a relief when you're buying case-lots of 147-grain subsonic ammo. Plus, the Gold Dot 147-grain jhp has just as deep a cavity as that wonderful old Federal 9MS-1 jhp did. If I were an Indiana trooper, I'd do some bent-elbow, or limp-wrist shooting until I'd established my confidence in the subsonic round. Then I'd take pains to insure that the slide rails on my 9mm pistol were cleaned and lubed on a religious basis. (That's what God made Q-tips and slide-lube for.) If I were responsible for training troopers, I'd be in their ***es to do the same.

I know some hard-cased men policing the streets with LAPD, LA County Sheriff, Chicago PD, Cincinnati PD and St. Louis PD who have used the 147-grain subsonic to good effect in real streetfights. Those guys understand that the operative part of the term "gunfight" isn't "gun"...it's "fight". I know a number of Indiana troopers who are just as hard who would flatten an adversary regardless of whether they were using a .40, a 9mm or a .22 rimfire. From everything I can recall of ISP's previous use of the 147-grain Hydra-Shok from their 92G Berettas, they usually managed to put a stop to the fight with the first solid hit or two...and that's about as good as it gets from any handgun. The 147-grain Hydra-Shok had core/jacket separation problems at times, though, and often bounced off auto metal and glass anytime the impact angle was much less than 45 degrees. Welcome to the low-recoil (and corresponding low impact energy) world of the 147-grain 9mm subsonic.

But then most handguns fare poorly against vehicles. That's just the reality of street-policing. (I've spent most of my career trying to wean administrators and street cops onto the 12-gauge rifled slug for vehicle-related problems.) The biggest "problem" that I personally was able to establish with ISP's previous use of the 147-grain Hydra-Shok was the troop's gun jamming after the first shot because the Beretta's slide rails weren't adequately lubed. (Beretta's are finicky about that, especially with low-powered, soft-recoiling 147 subsonics.) NYPD actually counts on the "+P" of their 124-grain Gold Dot ammo to provide them a margin-of-error that will keep poorly-maintained guns cycling during a fight. Their stats showed that over 70% of the guns their officers used in gunfights hadn't been cleaned and re-lubed since the officer's last range session. Troopers armed with softer-recoiling 147-grain subsonic 9mm ammo have to be scrupulous about weapon maintenance...

...and they need to keep a gauge handy, too. Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves. :)

RF7126
04-20-2006, 18:20
Thanks Snowman, up until now I've been carrying 147gr. hydrashocks as I never saw a problem with them, I'm always glad to learn about things like that.

B Coyote
04-20-2006, 18:27
NYPD actually counts on the "+P" of their 124-grain Gold Dot ammo to provide them a margin-of-error that will keep poorly-maintained guns cycling during a fight.
This statement is a sad comment on how people maintain their firearms.

One would think that with their life depending upon that machine on their hip, they'd want to maintain it to the best of their ability....but still, they don't and Administrators have to make up for the line officer's stupidity.

Please, LEO's, don't take this as a slam on you personally...unless you're one of the guys who does not maintain their equipment.

bc

Snowman92D
04-21-2006, 10:14
Originally posted by RF7126
Thanks Snowman, up until now I've been carrying 147gr. hydrashocks as I never saw a problem with them, I'm always glad to learn about things like that.

Historically, you could bank on Federal Cartridge to slightly under-load even their premium self-defense ammo. The 147-grain Hydra-Shoks were, case lot by case lot, sometimes 60 or 70 feet per second lower than their advertized catalog velocity. This usually wasn't a problem when you're using a full-size service pistol, unless (as I mentioned above) your pistol's slide rails weren't lubed, or an article of clothing happened to drag across the slide as it cycled. This "problem" was increased a bit if you were using a sub-compact pistol, I always noticed.

Hopefully in response to years of complaints, Federal's new HST line of premium 9mm jhp's is now loaded hotter than the older Hydra-Shok line. I notice it especially in comparing 1st generation HST's to the newest version. I recently clocked some 147-grain HST's from my 4-inch Smith and got an average of 968 fps. A string of 147-grain Hydra-Shoks averaged 917 fps from the same gun. CCI/Speer pretty faithfully loads their production lots of ammo to, or very near, their catalog velocity (when it's measured from an actual pistol, not a test barrel). If ISP's set on using a 147-grain load, I'd say they're best served by using the Gold Dot version.

Wanted to comment that those of us in LE work have seen cases where a citizen defensive shooter's pistol has malfunctioned at the moment of need because of poor maintenance too. Luckily, poor weapon maintenance is even more prevalent among members of the criminal element. If you think for a minute, I'm sure you'll recall news articles where a perpetrator's gun jammed after a shot or two was fired here locally. Thank God for small favors.

I know of two cases in past years where ISP troopers had their 9mm Berettas choke due to poor slide rail lubrication during real gunfights. Both of those troops were older guys who'd served most of their careers with simple, forgiving service revolvers...and the shots they fired before their pistols jammed up were sufficient for them to win the fight. But we've got a whole generation of troopers out there now who have carried nothing but autoloaders their entire careers. I don't think you'll see any of them being that slipshod about weapon maintenance. ISP has a good firearms program, far better that a lot of other comparable agencies.

B Coyote
04-21-2006, 16:38
Wanted to comment that those of us in LE work have seen cases where a citizen defensive shooter's pistol has malfunctioned at the moment of need because of poor maintenance too.
Shame on them, too.

Luckily, poor weapon maintenance is even more prevalent among members of the criminal element.
Somehow, this doesn't bother me much. ;)

bc

Xelloss
04-22-2006, 00:09
Originally posted by Snowman92D
Wanted to comment that those of us in LE work have seen cases where a citizen defensive shooter's pistol has malfunctioned at the moment of need because of poor maintenance too. Luckily, poor weapon maintenance is even more prevalent among members of the criminal element. If you think for a minute, I'm sure you'll recall news articles where a perpetrator's gun jammed after a shot or two was fired here locally. Thank God for small favors.

I know of two cases in past years where ISP troopers had their 9mm Berettas choke due to poor slide rail lubrication during real gunfights. Both of those troops were older guys who'd served most of their careers with simple, forgiving service revolvers...and the shots they fired before their pistols jammed up were sufficient for them to win the fight. But we've got a whole generation of troopers out there now who have carried nothing but autoloaders their entire careers. I don't think you'll see any of them being that slipshod about weapon maintenance. ISP has a good firearms program, far better that a lot of other comparable agencies.

Unfortunately, I've seen this among some of the local (county) LE weapons while shooting with them... I was DISMAYED when red dust came off the slides of their Berettas as they fired... Guess what this red dust was??? RUST!!! About floored me... How could anyone leave a weapon their LIFE might depend on in such condition??? The general excuse seemed to be that since they were just issued them and didn't own them, they didn't have time to maintain them... This was a while back (about 2 years ago), and there's a new sheriff in charge now, so hopefully this has changed...

-Mark

Snowman92D
04-22-2006, 06:16
Seems very odd that this would be so, but I'm not doubting you. Around here, since my life may one day hinge on you and your marksmanship skills, anyone who gets caught poorly maintaining his weapon is branded an ***hole and gets some pretty direct comments leveled at him or her. When I started out 30-some years ago, a punch in the mouth might well have been substituted for the comments. As you said, there's just no excuse for failing to maintain a tool upon which your life, and the lives of others, may depend.

Berettas and Glocks need regular preventive maintenance. Unlike, say, Ruger P-series or 3rd generation all-steel S&W autos, they need to have their rails checked over and Q-tipped clean and lubed real regularly (even if you haven't shot them). The slide on a Glock needs to be detail-stripped periodically to ensure that crud isn't building up in its firing pin channel. This is especially true if you're firing hard-primer ammo like CCI/Speer or milspec surplus.

I was at St. Louis PD awhile back watching some of their veteran officers during an in-service qualification. There were several whose Beretta's slide jammed due to lack of routine maintenance. Those officers were escorted from the range and sent home to face administrative discipline on a future date. I just don't think you'd ever see anything like that with our State Police.

Rikki
04-22-2006, 06:32
So a Glock 17 needs maintaince?
What about Chuck Taylors???

Xelloss
04-22-2006, 07:43
Originally posted by Snowman92D
Seems very odd that this would be so, but I'm not doubting you. Around here, since my life may one day hinge on you and your marksmanship skills, anyone who gets caught poorly maintaining his weapon is branded an ***hole and gets some pretty direct comments leveled at him or her. When I started out 30-some years ago, a punch in the mouth might well have been substituted for the comments. As you said, there's just no excuse for failing to maintain a tool upon which your life, and the lives of others, may depend.

I was at St. Louis PD awhile back watching some of their veteran officers during an in-service qualification. There were several whose Beretta's slide jammed due to lack of routine maintenance. Those officers were escorted from the range and sent home to face administrative discipline on a future date. I just don't think you'd ever see anything like that with our State Police.

It certainly surprised me... Of the four deputies shooting only my friend's beretta was free of the red dust (he was a military veteran who knew how to maintain his firearms)... The other three told me, upon my inquiry, that they had to spend too much time doing other things, like paperwork, than to worry about keeping their issued weapons oiled and clean... As I said, though, hopefully this isn't allowed to continue under the current sherriff (my friend moved to another state, so I no longer have any inside info)...

I agree that most departments in this state are much better trained than that... The local city officers that I know are much better at caring for their arms and, in my experience, better shots as well, though the fact that they're gun enthusiasts may have something to do with that... The chief of police here is VERY pro-gun and pro-concealed carry...

I imagine you are dead right about the ISP... Although I've never been shooting with any of them, they do seem much more professional (and probably better trained) than the local LEOs...:) :) :)

prism
04-29-2006, 10:16
brief news items

http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_story_102231432.html


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060412/LOCAL/604120560

Skpotamus
05-05-2006, 23:41
Curious as to how the Glock 17's have been performing since the switch?

Have there been any problems with them?

INTrooper4255
05-06-2006, 05:45
Originally posted by Skpotamus
Curious as to how the Glock 17's have been performing since the switch?

Have there been any problems with them?

We've not gotten them yet, but we will defintely keep everyone updated!

TLHelmer
05-06-2006, 06:53
We are scheduled to start transition to the G-17 on the week of May 15th.

marinr
05-16-2006, 15:43
I'm appalled by what I've learned in this thread.

I've had a G27 for over ten years and I LOVE it. I have been considering getting it a new big brother (G23), but I don't know about that now.

If a state police agency had these problems with Glock (the company) and Glocks (the pistols) what could a sailor expect?

B Coyote
05-16-2006, 15:44
Originally posted by TLHelmer
We are scheduled to start transition to the G-17 on the week of May 15th.
How's your transition going?

bc

TLHelmer
05-16-2006, 15:51
It was postponed till May 22nd due to logistical reasons (not enough 9mm ammo).

I will let you guys know.

B Coyote
05-16-2006, 16:09
Originally posted by TLHelmer
It was postponed till May 22nd due to logistical reasons (not enough 9mm ammo).

I will let you guys know.
Not enough ammo? Ooops.

Thanks for keeping us posted, TLH.

bc

TLHelmer
05-16-2006, 16:47
I will bet we still have plenty of .40S&W, but we are waiting on 9mm.:freak:

TLHelmer
05-20-2006, 17:59
I am transitioning to the Glock 17 on Monday.

IMHO, We should have stuck with the G-22 and had Glock fix the guns that were experiencing FTF's.

They didn't ask me.

R. Emmelman
05-22-2006, 05:27
Originally posted by TLHelmer
I am transitioning to the Glock 17 on Monday.

IMHO, We should have stuck with the G-22 and had Glock fix the guns that were experiencing FTF's.

They didn't ask me.
If you miss it so much I will let you shoot mine.... :rollsmiley: :supergrin: :rollsmiley:

YukonGlocker
05-22-2006, 05:49
Tag. I just want to know how the G17 works out for you guys. It us unfortunate that Glock couldn't find any reliable G22s for you guys.

I am sorry if I missed it in this thread, did your agency think about the 357Sig? I am not saying it is superior to 9mm or anything like that. I am not wanting to start a caliber war. Ohhh, it's too late for that!!! I am just curious if the Glock 31 was an option???

TLHelmer
05-22-2006, 05:51
Actually, the majority of the G-22 worked fine. We had about 150 guns that had problems and Glock couldn't seem to fix them.

I will let you know how it goes.

TLHelmer
05-22-2006, 05:52
Nope, they only looked at the .40 S&W. When we had problems they only considered the 9mm.

Rusty Phillips
06-04-2006, 06:18
BTT

I have read all 5 pages and have been thinking about this

so the ISP went from 147 grain 9mm's (low recoil) in Berettas (big heavy gun) to 180 grain 40's (sharper recoil) in Glocks (light weight gun) & had problems?

Shooting a big old Beretta with 147's would feel like a pellet gun next to the thumping from a G22.

it sure sounds like a training / operator error (limp wristing) issue to me (and not a hardware problem)

I wonder how many of the "problem guns" were in the holsters of IBT's (Itty Bitty Troopers)?

I guess because the customer is always right it makes sense for Glock to trade them out for 9mm's rather than fight a losing battle - I hope Glock will sell those ISP G-22's to GSSF members for $200.... I might have to buy a couple.

but then again - maybe not - I really dont like shooting the 40 cal Glocks that much.....



Originally posted by minuteman32
I'd heard that the problem doesn't seem to be from the guns. The problem seems to be a power struggle w/ in the ISP. Someone I spoke w/ today said that they had fired the very G22's w/ the alleged problems. This person fired about 1000 rounds through the guns w/o a single malfunction. "All" the malfunctions could be attributed to "limp wristing" or similar "operator errors". This evidently didn't go to well w/ some, as they were the ISP & "know how to shoot".
Most of the ISP were happy or neutral on the issue of going w/ the G22 and had 0 malfunctions w/ them. Some are okay w/ the G17. A minority are unhappy w/ Glock. Period. Most of our Troopers could really care less what they are issued, they just want something that works!




Originally posted by Snowman92D
Will a 147-grain 9mm jhp work okay? You betcha. If you need to limit yourself to a standard-pressure 9mm jhp, then the modern, better-engineered designs of the 147-grain are as good as it gets, truthfully. It was noted during the committee meeting that the 147-grain Gold Dot recoils less than the 124+P version does...and that this is a plus for the IBT's (Itty Bitty Troopers). I suppose that's so, but then I thought the IBT's were able to handle the harder-kicking .40 S&W loads okay. True...? If you can control a .40 caliber load out of a service pistol, you should be able to control a 124-grain +P 9mm load also......

I personally don't care for the 147-grain subsonic 9mm loads, chiefly because of their low recoil. That lower recoil certainly is a plus for "challenged" shooters during training, but it also means that the subsonic cartridge generates less rearward slide velocity as the pistol cycles. Recoil-operated pistols need something solid to kick against, plus nicely-lubed slides and enough rearward oomph on the slide to make the gun's mechanism function and stay in action.......

That presented a large and continuing problem as the 147-grain subsonic is (as previously noted) the darling of the lab-coat brigade and they, with their now-defunct IWBA, all-too-often had the ear of police admin types. IPD dealt with this problem for a time by having Federal Cartridge custom-load a slightly hotter 147-grain 9mm service load cataloged as XM9MS using the old-style deeper cavity 9MS-1 bullet. That load worked great, but was hard on the old-style locking blocks in IPD's then-issue Berettas. Thus the change to the more durable Glocks.

If there's a happy note in all this, it's that CCI/Speer can be relied on to load their premium ammo just as hot as it's advertised. You don't have to worry so much about their production lots of ammo having velocities 50-to-75 fps slower than their book velocity. That's a relief when you're buying case-lots of 147-grain subsonic ammo. Plus, the Gold Dot 147-grain jhp has just as deep a cavity as that wonderful old Federal 9MS-1 jhp did. If I were an Indiana trooper, I'd do some bent-elbow, or limp-wrist shooting until I'd established my confidence in the subsonic round. Then I'd take pains to insure that the slide rails on my 9mm pistol were cleaned and lubed on a religious basis. (That's what God made Q-tips and slide-lube for.) If I were responsible for training troopers, I'd be in their ***es to do the same.

I know some hard-cased men policing the streets with LAPD, LA County Sheriff, Chicago PD, Cincinnati PD and St. Louis PD who have used the 147-grain subsonic to good effect in real streetfights. Those guys understand that the operative part of the term "gunfight" isn't "gun"...it's "fight". I know a number of Indiana troopers who are just as hard who would flatten an adversary regardless of whether they were using a .40, a 9mm or a .22 rimfire. From everything I can recall of ISP's previous use of the 147-grain Hydra-Shok from their 92G Berettas, they usually managed to put a stop to the fight with the first solid hit or two...and that's about as good as it gets from any handgun. The 147-grain Hydra-Shok had core/jacket separation problems at times, though, and often bounced off auto metal and glass anytime the impact angle was much less than 45 degrees. Welcome to the low-recoil (and corresponding low impact energy) world of the 147-grain 9mm subsonic.

The biggest "problem" that I personally was able to establish with ISP's previous use of the 147-grain Hydra-Shok was the troop's gun jamming after the first shot because the Beretta's slide rails weren't adequately lubed. (Beretta's are finicky about that, especially with low-powered, soft-recoiling 147 subsonics.) NYPD actually counts on the "+P" of their 124-grain Gold Dot ammo to provide them a margin-of-error that will keep poorly-maintained guns cycling during a fight. Their stats showed that over 70% of the guns their officers used in gunfights hadn't been cleaned and re-lubed since the officer's last range session. Troopers armed with softer-recoiling 147-grain subsonic 9mm ammo have to be scrupulous about weapon maintenance...

Rusty Phillips
06-04-2006, 06:34
Originally posted by rhino465
I get the opposite impression, that it is a problem with the guns. The trooper with whom I spoke last week told me his personal gun was not one with problems, but that the problems were real. He told me they could actually predict when the malfunctions would occur while shooting the guns. I'm not sure how that works, but I have no reason to doubt him.

Application of Occam's Razor leads me to look at the problems being real, rather than looking for some other agenda.

What do our resident troopers have to say about it?

Im not a resident trooper but....

my guess would be that the problems start occurring at round count 100 or when the shooter starts to fatigue & the trooper's grip starts to weaken....

and if you were to give that "problem gun" to a fresh shooter he can burn off mag after mag with no problems

if this is not the case - I would love to hear more about how they can predict when the malf's occur

TLHelmer
06-04-2006, 06:40
Nice "theory" Rusty, but the problem with your theory is that Glock sent someone from Georgia first who discovered there was a problem with FTF's. An engineer from Austria came over and found the same thing. FTF's in specific guns approximately 150 guns. They acknowledged that there is a problem, but didn't know what it was.

The limp wristing theory was tested as well by having troops who were having trouble with the guns they were issued shoot guns that weren't having problems. The FTF's disappeared when they shot a different gun. The instructors would shoot a gun that had been experiencing FTF's and the gun continuued to have FTF's.

We went from the Beretta 92G in 1998 carrying the 147 gr. Hydro-shok to Beretta 96-G's. When we went from the 96-G's this year we were carrying 180 gr. Speer gold-dots. We stayed with the 180 Gold-dots when we went with the Glock 22. We are in the process of switching to the Glock 17 and they went with the 147 grain Gold-dots.

INTrooper4255
06-04-2006, 06:58
Originally posted by Rusty Phillips
BTT

I have read all 5 pages and have been thinking about this

so the ISP went from 147 grain 9mm's (low recoil) in Berettas (big heavy gun) to 180 grain 40's (sharper recoil) in Glocks (light weight gun) & had problems?

Shooting a big old Beretta with 147's would feel like a pellet gun next to the thumping from a G22.

it sure sounds like a training / operator error (limp wristing) issue to me (and not a hardware problem)

I wonder how many of the "problem guns" were in the holsters of IBT's (Itty Bitty Troopers)?

I guess because the customer is always right it makes sense for Glock to trade them out for 9mm's rather than fight a losing battle - I hope Glock will sell those ISP G-22's to GSSF members for $200.... I might have to buy a couple.

but then again - maybe not - I really dont like shooting the 40 cal Glocks that much.....

Yeah, I am one of your "Itty Bitty Troopers" that was having malfunctions with my Glock. I'm 6-03", 220lbs. I can assure you, I was not "limp wristing" it.:upeyes:

thiscoplovescoins
06-04-2006, 07:08
I didn't even know you guys(ISP) even carried mattels(Glocks look like toys) until I went down yesterday to take the test in Lakeville,IN.

I will admit I do like the style. But if I can help it I would never own one. I do own the SW Sigma series .40 and 9mm which pretty much is the same style as the Glock minus the arc in the grip.

TLHelmer
06-04-2006, 07:10
Not trying to pile on here, but at my district we have four female troops and one male that are the smallest troops we have. None of them had the problem guns. They qualified without any problem.

I am a Glock fan. I still carry my G-27 as my primary off-duty gun. I can say with 100 % confidence that Glock has a problem they need to deal with.

INTrooper4255
06-04-2006, 07:22
Originally posted by williampelish
I didn't even know you guys(ISP) even carried mattels(Glocks look like toys) until I went down yesterday to take the test in Lakeville,IN.

I will admit I do like the style. But if I can help it I would never own one. I do own the SW Sigma series .40 and 9mm which pretty much is the same style as the Glock minus the arc in the grip.

Yeah, myself and another troop went to the 1500 gun and knife show yesterday with our wives. I bought my wife a Springfield Armory XD40 Sub-Compact. When we were looking at guns to see what fit her hand, the other troop came up and asked if we were going to buy a Glock (the Springfields just happened to be by the Glocks). He knew that I wasn't, he was just prodding me, because he knows that I will never buy a Glock again!

thiscoplovescoins
06-04-2006, 08:53
Springfields are very nice. I like the PARA DA myself. That 45 is compact enough to make a nice bug. However, I wouldn't complain if I had an XD.

Will

INTrooper4255
06-04-2006, 09:32
Originally posted by williampelish
Springfields are very nice. I like the PARA DA myself. That 45 is compact enough to make a nice bug. However, I wouldn't complain if I had an XD.

Will

Yeah, we looked at the Para's but she liked the feel of the XD's the best.

thiscoplovescoins
06-04-2006, 09:35
Let me put it this way...Woman and Guns...I never argue.

thiscoplovescoins
06-04-2006, 09:39
My Smith


http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/120025_large.jpg

In case you didn't know what it looked like.

I also have a Ruger P90 .45 that thing is sweet!

INTrooper4255
06-04-2006, 09:41
Originally posted by williampelish
Let me put it this way...Woman and Guns...I never argue.

Yeah, it was going to be her gun, so I let her try what she wanted and choose what she wanted.

sjstill
06-04-2006, 16:26
You own two of the butt-ugliest pistols ever made, and you have the nerve to call Glocks mattel-toys??? Sheesh.....:freak:

Originally posted by williampelish
I didn't even know you guys(ISP) even carried mattels(Glocks look like toys)

B Coyote
06-04-2006, 16:29
Originally posted by sjstill
You own two of the butt-ugliest pistols ever made, and you have the nerve to call Glocks mattel-toys??? Sheesh.....:freak:
:laughabove:

No kidding. The Glock is a toy, but the Smegma isn't?

I'd advise stepping away from the crack pipe, sir. (Not you, sjstill.)

bc

rhino465
06-04-2006, 17:06
Actually, the later Sigmas are nice guns. I owned two of the original SW40F models when they were new on the market, so I know a little about them. Smith & Wesson has worked out most of the the bugs in terms of reliabilty and durability from what I can tell, and the trigger is a lot, lot better (which isn't saying much, though).

I think they're pretty much dead now that the S&W M&Ps are on the market, though. The M&P is being marketed to police departments very aggressively and I think it's a winner of a product. If nothing else, even people with fingers as short as mine can reach the trigger properly! Woo-hoo!

The trigger pull itself (in stock guns) is significantly better than any stock Glock I've felt. It's a lot more like the feel of the trigger in the XD. Nice guns.

INTrooper4255
06-04-2006, 17:10
Originally posted by rhino465
Actually, the later Sigmas are nice guns. I owned two of the original SW40F models when they were new on the market, so I know a little about them. Smith & Wesson has worked out most of the the bugs in terms of reliabilty and durability from what I can tell, and the trigger is a lot, lot better (which isn't saying much, though).

I think they're pretty much dead now that the S&W M&Ps are on the market, though. The M&P is being marketed to police departments very aggressively and I think it's a winner of a product. If nothing else, even people with fingers as short as mine can reach the trigger properly! Woo-hoo!

The trigger pull itself (in stock guns) is significantly better than any stock Glock I've felt. It's a lot more like the feel of the trigger in the XD. Nice guns.

I put about 100 rounds through my wifes new XD Sub-Compact 40 today without any problems and I can tell you that I prefer it over the Glock a lot. It has a much better trigger pull and it shoots really nice. It think that she will be pleased with it.:)

rhino465
06-04-2006, 17:55
Originally posted by INTrooper4255
I put about 100 rounds through my wifes new XD Sub-Compact 40 today without any problems and I can tell you that I prefer it over the Glock a lot. It has a much better trigger pull and it shoots really nice. It think that she will be pleased with it.:)

I think she'll like it too!

thiscoplovescoins
06-04-2006, 19:22
Originally posted by sjstill
You own two of the butt-ugliest pistols ever made, and you have the nerve to call Glocks mattel-toys??? Sheesh.....:freak: Mattels or Glocks do look like little toys.

Shootin Student
06-18-2006, 16:11
In. Troopers, I looked through all of these pages and some posts in other areas and could find it, or just missed it. Can you describe the type of malfunction? I'm curious if they are the same as we are having.

We are having a problem with some of our G22s (my G35 also does it on occasion) and the malf is the round being loaded is hitting the feed ramp and stopping before going into the chamber.

I have sat with these guns and replaced mag springs, recoil springs, cleaned them to spotless, oiled them with a real good lube, and they still do it. I even started to check the mag lips to see if there is much difference in the size of the openings between various mags.

Glock techs have not been able to answer this one for me and some of them blame the ammo, but its not that. My fun meter is pegged.

If you can let me know what yours were experiencing, I'd appreciate it.

thiscoplovescoins
06-18-2006, 16:22
It seems to me that Mattels Malf more than most wepaons. However, I do keep in mind that all weapons malfunction at one time or another. That is a no brainer.

I am considering still buying a Glock? Not sure which one I want though.

TLHelmer
06-19-2006, 19:26
I believe that Pena or Pina County in Arizona is also having similar problems.

thiscoplovescoins
06-20-2006, 00:33
Originally posted by TLHelmer
I believe that Pena or Pina County in Arizona is also having similar problems. Pima or Pinal. Depending on which part of the state your refering too. Not the vocab Police. However, I am curious more so what part myself only because one of them has Tucson in the county and one doesn't

TLHelmer
06-20-2006, 16:02
Your correct! I believe it was Pinal County. I only remembered the correct spelling after reading how you spelled it.

CaptDoug04
06-24-2006, 14:36
Originally posted by rhino465
You can't improve on perfection!

;f

That is why I bought a SA-XD40 I get a better weapon for a lot less cash!:supergrin:

thiscoplovescoins
06-24-2006, 14:50
Originally posted by Lt.Doug29
That is why I bought a SA-XD40 I get a better weapon for a lot less cash!:supergrin: This is very very true! XD's are far better than Mattel's!

sjstill
06-24-2006, 17:28
Originally posted by williampelish
This is very very true! XD's are far better than Mattel's!

Do you actually add anything of value to a thread, or just post dumbass comments?

thiscoplovescoins
06-24-2006, 17:44
Originally posted by sjstill
Do you actually add anything of value to a thread, or just post dumbass comments? Do you always act like an a s s or is this your first time? Didn't your momma ever teach you if you don't have anything nice to say that you don't say it at all?

thiscoplovescoins
06-26-2006, 19:47
I still am not in favor of Mattel's/Glocks. However, at least this is an improvement

New Guns for Indiana State Police
( Air Date: 6/26/2006 )
Indiana State Troopers from the Terre Haute Post got to try out some brand new firearms Monday.

The post had been using Glock 40 caliber pistols, but after some reliability issues, decided to try something else.

Now the Troopers are fitted with a 9 millimeter Glock model 17, and they’re excited to have the new resource. "We`ve gotten a lot of positive feedback,” says State Trooper and Firearms Instructor Sam Stearley, “reliability has been 100% so far. It’s a low recoil cartridge and everybody is shooting very well.”

Troopers say besides being more dependable, the model 17`s are also much easier to handle.

INTrooper4255
06-27-2006, 08:27
Originally posted by williampelish
I still am not in favor of Mattel's/Glocks. However, at least this is an improvement

Well, from an "inside" standpoint, the only people that I have talked to that are happy about going back to the 9mm are command members and firearms instructors. Take it for what it's worth.:shocked:

thiscoplovescoins
06-27-2006, 09:18
Originally posted by INTrooper4255
Well, from an "inside" standpoint, the only people that I have talked to that are happy about going back to the 9mm are command members and firearms instructors. Take it for what it's worth.:shocked: You wouldn't hear me complain if that is what I was told to use. I would just shut up and use it. I have a 40 cal here (SW) and I don't shoot it often. It just feels weird. I am happy that you guys got the better end of the stick on this one and it all worked out.

INTrooper4255
06-27-2006, 09:25
Originally posted by williampelish
You wouldn't hear me complain if that is what I was told to use. I would just shut up and use it. I have a 40 cal here (SW) and I don't shoot it often. It just feels weird. I am happy that you guys got the better end of the stick on this one and it all worked out.

It is still pretty pathetic that while other agencies continue to progress and advance, we are stuck in the past and refuse to better ourselves, to say....the .357 sig or the .45ACP! Ohhhh, that's right, we need something that the "small framed" people can shoot! The big joke around our post while we were at the range going to our "little nine" was that the next thing the department would probably do would be to trade in our 870 12ga's for .410's so that the "small frame" people can shoot them well also.:supergrin:

YukonGlocker
06-27-2006, 12:03
Do you have to carry what is issued? I mean, can you purchase a different gun yourself, qualify with it, and then carry it on duty?

INTrooper4255
06-27-2006, 12:28
Originally posted by YukonGlocker
Do you have to carry what is issued? I mean, can you purchase a different gun yourself, qualify with it, and then carry it on duty?

No, unfortunately we can't, we have to carry what they give us. We can carry what we want as an off-duty, backup or plain clothes duty gun if we qualify with it, but unfortunately, I am in uniform so I have to carry what they think is best for everyone.:upeyes:

YukonGlocker
06-27-2006, 13:03
:shakehead: :headscratch:

meeko
06-27-2006, 15:29
I am not running anything but after the problem and grief Glock gave your department I wish you would have told them to get bent. That S&W MP 40 or M&P 357 when they come out would have been nice.

To go from a 40 back to a 9mm is nuts. It's one thing to stay with a 9mm for say ammo compatability etc (having same cal SMG's and the like)At the federal prison we use 9mm of different makes but with the budget the way it is and all the 9mm SMG's we have we will probably never go to a any other caliber. Good luck with your 9mm's

maybe when the next evolution of firearms happens and they are lasers the Indiana will let you go forward to a bigger caliber.

INTrooper4255
06-27-2006, 19:54
Originally posted by meeko
I am not running anything but after the problem and grief Glock gave your department I wish you would have told them to get bent. That S&W MP 40 or M&P 357 when they come out would have been nice.

To go from a 40 back to a 9mm is nuts. It's one thing to stay with a 9mm for say ammo compatability etc (having same cal SMG's and the like)At the federal prison we use 9mm of different makes but with the budget the way it is and all the 9mm SMG's we have we will probably never go to a any other caliber. Good luck with your 9mm's

maybe when the next evolution of firearms happens and they are lasers the Indiana will let you go forward to a bigger caliber.

Well, a lot of us hoped that our Super would have told Glock to go screw themselves and give us our money back for the guns and holsters, allowing us to buy real guns. That didn't happen and I lost a lot of faith in this administration. As for the S&W M&P, I handled one for the first time at the last gun and knife show and really liked the feel of it. It has more of a "beavertail" that would help me a lot since the Glock chews the web of my hand up. Supposedly, those that tested the guns on our department preferred the Springfield XD .40, but we ended up with the Glock instead.

Fenway
06-27-2006, 20:44
What "real gun" were you hoping for?

Originally posted by INTrooper4255
Well, a lot of us hoped that our Super would have told Glock to go screw themselves and give us our money back for the guns and holsters, allowing us to buy real guns. That didn't happen and I lost a lot of faith in this administration. As for the S&W M&P, I handled one for the first time at the last gun and knife show and really liked the feel of it. It has more of a "beavertail" that would help me a lot since the Glock chews the web of my hand up. Supposedly, those that tested the guns on our department preferred the Springfield XD .40, but we ended up with the Glock instead.

INTrooper4255
06-27-2006, 21:45
Originally posted by Fenway
What "real gun" were you hoping for?

Anything other than a Glock, such as a Sig, HK, Smith, Springfield, etc.:cool:

Fenway
06-27-2006, 22:44
Are you sure you are on the right site? :supergrin:

Originally posted by INTrooper4255
Anything other than a Glock, such as a Sig, HK, Smith, Springfield, etc.:cool:

INTrooper4255
06-28-2006, 06:59
Originally posted by Fenway
Are you sure you are on the right site? :supergrin:

Like I posted previously, I personally own two Glocks and there were a couple models that I would like to have had. After the deal with Glock and our department, I will never purchase another Glock again. That is why I bought my wife a Springfield Armory XD.;)

TLHelmer
06-29-2006, 17:08
Not all firearms instructors are happy with the 9mm!

mpholic
07-05-2006, 10:55
Originally posted by INTrooper4255
Like I posted previously, I personally own two Glocks and there were a couple models that I would like to have had. After the deal with Glock and our department, I will never purchase another Glock again. That is why I bought my wife a Springfield Armory XD.;)

Hope you don't ever need any parts for it in a hurry.

I too love the XDs but when I inquired about buying a few parts I was told NO. "If it's broke send it to us, we will fix it." Glock parts can be found anywhere.

It's too bad Glock screwed you guys like they did. It is an unpleasant situation at best. I own four and plan on buying more. I personally haven't had any problems with mine and am not willing to throw out the baby with the bath water.

shimmy1000
07-20-2006, 20:15
It isn't all bad, I shot a "possible" for the first time with the 9mm.....

B Coyote
07-20-2006, 23:49
Originally posted by shimmy1000
It isn't all bad, I shot a "possible" for the first time with the 9mm.....
Possible meaning perfect score?

bc

TLHelmer
07-21-2006, 06:13
Yep! Good Job Shimmy! I threw one out of the 8 ring with my off hand. So close yet so far. I was hoping this was my year.

boilergonzo
07-21-2006, 09:42
Okay, so you LE folks that are impacted by this (and others who want to chime in!)...

let's pretend YOU get to make THE decision (and have to pay for it, so don't go nuts, and do keep overall price in mind!). What would be your three finalists (model and caliber)?

For example, Glock 31 (357Sig), Spfld XD (.45ACP), and Sig229DAK (40S&W).

Would any 9mm make your list? Would your old Beretta's be preferred over the new G17's?

INTrooper4255
07-21-2006, 10:37
Originally posted by boilergonzo
Okay, so you LE folks that are impacted by this (and others who want to chime in!)...

let's pretend YOU get to make THE decision (and have to pay for it, so don't go nuts, and do keep overall price in mind!). What would be your three finalists (model and caliber)?

For example, Glock 31 (357Sig), Spfld XD (.45ACP), and Sig229DAK (40S&W).

Would any 9mm make your list? Would your old Beretta's be preferred over the new G17's?

I personally think that serious evaluation should have been given to the HK USP and the Sig P229 with the DAK. NO 9mm, it should have only been evaluated for .40 S&W or possibly the .357 Sig and .45 ACP. Both the HK and the Sig are fabulous guns and they stand behind their products. Now owning a Springfield XD, I would have really liked to have seen them go with the XD also. The grip feels really nice and the trigger pull is great, much better than the Glock, which stacks all 5.5 lbs at the last second.

I personally think that Glock made the ISP look foolish. They gave us a junk product (the G22), then even after not admitting to fault in that junk product, got us to accept a firearm with an inferior caliber in it's place. To this day, I still cannot believe that our command staff allowed that to happen. Again, while other agencies around the country are progressing to better weapons and calibers, we continue to stay in the past with the 9mm. Everyone talks about how the .357 Sig and the .45 ACP was not even a consideration because of recoil and that the "smaller framed" people cannot handle them. Well, maybe the "smaller framed" people would need more training to deal with a larger caliber to get up to speed with everyone else! Show me another agency (other than us)in this country in the past year or so that has progressed from a larger caliber to a 9mm? I bet there's not many, if any at all! :rofl:

mpholic
07-21-2006, 12:53
Originally posted by B Coyote
Possible meaning perfect score?

bc

Yes.

During qualification (USMC) we called a perfect score for a particlar round a "possible". I'm not sure why they callit this other than the fact it is not truly a perfect score until it is verified by the Range Master?

shimmy1000
07-21-2006, 14:48
Yeah I remember there was some fuss about the smaller hands. I don't know why it's not possible to give them a different gun. I know of other large departments doing it. If I could have my pick I'd probably go with a .45. We're talking over a thousand troopers here, so give 99% the .45 and the two small ones who can't get their hands around the gun a 9mm. Same manufacturer, same type weapon, just a different caliber. I don't know why that would be out of the question....

What do you think Ben?
;)

TLHelmer
07-21-2006, 16:02
If it was completely up to me, I would go with a Sig 229 in .40 S&W, A working Glock 22 or a Glock 21.

How ya doing Gonzo?

INTrooper4255
07-21-2006, 16:23
Originally posted by shimmy1000
Yeah I remember there was some fuss about the smaller hands. I don't know why it's not possible to give them a different gun. I know of other large departments doing it. If I could have my pick I'd probably go with a .45. We're talking over a thousand troopers here, so give 99% the .45 and the two small ones who can't get their hands around the gun a 9mm. Same manufacturer, same type weapon, just a different caliber. I don't know why that would be out of the question....

What do you think Ben?
;)

I agree 100%. There are a lot of departments that give their officers more than one choice of a weapon and it only makes sense. If they want to stick with Glocks, let those few that can't or don't want to handle the .45 ACP carry a 9mm and then let the rest, or as you say the 99% carry .45's.;)

Oh, and who is shimmy1000?? I take it that you know me.:)

shimmy1000
07-21-2006, 17:57
I'll tell you who I am at our deposition on August 17. haa haa

INTrooper4255
07-21-2006, 18:12
Originally posted by shimmy1000
I'll tell you who I am at our deposition on August 17. haa haa

Dag gone kentuckians!!!;) :rofl:

4949shooter
08-20-2006, 22:15
I'm just curious. I read the entire thread and didn't see any ammo tested by the ISP other than 180 grain Gold Dot. Did the ISP or Glock try ammo of different weights or different manufacturers? Here in the NJSP there exists this rigid mentality that our duty ammo is set in stone and the weapons platform must be tailored around it. The ISP may also subscribe to this mentality. I know this may sound painfully obvious but often rigidity and logistics stand in the way of rational thinking.

TLHelmer
08-21-2006, 05:37
We are perfectly capable of demonstrating that exact mentality, but I don't know that was the case this time. We didn't look at any other .40 S&W round for the G-22. We looked at a number of rounds for the evaluation from the G-22 to the G-17. Someone in Indy likes the Gold-dot and that seems to be the round no matter the caliber.

sigpro-fessor
08-22-2006, 22:01
Originally posted by mpholic
That statement in general could be applied to any manufactueres 9mm models compared to their .40S&W models




very true, i find the 9mm XD's to be more reliable than the .40's as well. i am partial to 9mm for this reason.

John NYPD
03-12-2007, 19:03
How are you guys making out with your new G17?

thiscoplovescoins
03-12-2007, 19:06
now this is a topic that just wont die and I like it

RF7126
03-12-2007, 23:54
I was wondering about this very topic just the other day.

4sarge
03-13-2007, 05:59
Man, this thread has a life. We went from S&W L frame 357 wheel guns to the Sig 220 45 acp., sometime back in the 80's. Yes, and I know that I'm old :) Great pistol and an excellent caliber. After several years, we switched to the Glock 21 45 acp and never had any problems with FTF. I liked the Glock for it's durability and easy cleaning. I do own a G27 40 for personal carry but haven't fired thousands of rounds thru it but seems to function correctly. I owned a Sig 226 9mm and it was a sweet shooting pistol but I'm just not a big 9 mm fan. 45 acp is the way to go but it's not PC to carry such a cartridge. The 40 was easier to sneak thru the PC radar and it enables the sale of new weapons, holsters, ammo etc. One would think that Glock would jump to rectify this problem but I recall some other department making the switch away from Glock (different caliber I think) because of Glock problems. Did Doug Kiesler handle this sale or did ISP buy straight from Glock?

Good luck, Glock is still a great pistol but attitudes from manufacturers sometimes cannot be overcome. Glock has the market share now and evidently the ego to go along with it. Good luck in making the transition but hopefully Glock will see the light and make this right. I never could keep up (probably Glock designed) or care for Glock changing the model generations in lieu of a recall. I still am a Glock believer :upeyes:

ynot
03-13-2007, 07:05
so what is the verdict on the 22? have the glock folks come up with a solution? are the newer 22 glocks trustworthy?

boilergonzo
03-13-2007, 08:46
The reason this thread got resurected is that several G22 threads from NJ have sprung up where they are having G22 problems, and the Indiana State Police and Illinois State Police historical information is being brought up. NJ issued a teletype on the topic (I assume to light a fire under Glock's behinds), so this thread is back. ISP got G17's after bailing out on the G22's. I haven't heard of any problems, and can't imagine there being any.

Kiesler's did get the old Beretta's, so my guess is they brokered the Glock deal, but I have no actual knowledge of this.

RF7126
03-13-2007, 13:45
Do we know how much are the old Berettas going for? I'm not sure I'd carry it, but it'd be a great range gun.

4949shooter
03-13-2007, 14:16
Originally posted by ynot
so what is the verdict on the 22? have the glock folks come up with a solution? are the newer 22 glocks trustworthy?

I have a 22 purchased last December. There have been no problems with it so far.

KSFreeman
03-13-2007, 14:51
How many rounds through it in 4 months?

4949shooter
03-13-2007, 15:20
Originally posted by KSFreeman
How many rounds through it in 4 months?

Not enough...250. But it is a start.

TLHelmer
03-14-2007, 18:31
The Indiana State Police have not had any problems with the G-17's since we transitioned from the G-22's. I am issued two G-17's since I am on the Emergency Response Team (SWAT). They have been 100% reliable.

Patrick Graham
03-14-2007, 19:08
Originally posted by TLHelmer
The Indiana State Police have not had any problems with the G-17's since we transitioned from the G-22's. I am issued two G-17's since I am on the Emergency Response Team (SWAT). They have been 100% reliable.

Do you have one for just regular carry and one when you do SWAT???

Do you use the same type of ammo for both???

Do either of them have night sights?

Did ISP do anything special to any of the G17s like a 2.5 lb trigger?

I've got a G17 with well in excess of 20k rounds through it. I've used it in IPSC, IDPA and 3 gun over the last 6 years.. without a single mechanical problem.. I had one brass failure with one of my famous reloads.. it blew the mag out the bottom.. there was some soot.. I slapped the mag back in and kept shooting.. didn't hurt the gun one bit.. G17 is the best gun ever made..

TLHelmer
03-14-2007, 19:43
Correct! One for duty and one for ERT. We use the same ammo in both guns. No modifications are allowed to either gun with the exception of a light. Both guns have night sights.

Hoosierbilly
06-02-2007, 20:35
got a new G22 a month ago, only shot 100 rounds thru it (no probs of course) because i will be waiting for another 10 or 11 weeks for my permit from what it sounds like at this time

i realy just dont understand how glock CANT find the problem with the G22's....

1. what is it not doing...firing
2. what makes it fire...this, this, and this
3. which part is not doing its job....o, well this
4. improve/fix this

i dont know, but if they put a small team on this, i dont see how they wouldnt be able to figure this one out

maybe the G22's are just haunted by a higher power that decides when they will not fire...

TLHelmer
06-03-2007, 06:02
They had a group of Glock engineers come down to look at the guns and what we were doing. The problem guns had FTF's on the Glock engineer. That is when they admitted there was a small problem with some of the guns.

The solution was to switch us new Glock 17 for all our Glock 22's.:shocked:

the iceman
06-03-2007, 21:27
No way! I just purchased a brand new G22. They are pieces of crap?

TLHelmer
06-04-2007, 05:28
They may have fixed the problem with the G-22's. It has been over a year since the problem came up.

KSFreeman
06-04-2007, 05:36
Hmmm, problems with the Glock 22 and 23 have been around since I was slinging guns at Galyan's sixteen years ago when the 22/23 were released. Herr Glock did not "fix" the problem in 1992 (he just yelled at people in German and stormed around his office) and the problems will not be fixed in 2007.

ISP did the right thing and went with the proven weapon instead of the "flavor of the month" gun which has caused Glock so many stomach aches.

the iceman
06-04-2007, 18:56
Originally posted by TLHelmer
They may have fixed the problem with the G-22's. It has been over a year since the problem came up.

I really hope the problems have been fixed. I wasn’t aware of any. It was my friends in law enforcement that talked me into getting a .40. I was considering the 17 but they said I was better off getting a .40 because they were more powerful and reliable.

Every gun will have its problem sometime right? They are machines and no machine is perfect.

John NYPD
02-10-2008, 20:31
Any update how your new Glock 17's are working out?

Did Glock ever find out what caused all the problems with your G22?

John

TLHelmer
02-16-2008, 07:15
The G-17's have been 100%! I haven't had a single problem with either of my dept. G-17's and we get to shoot more than other troopers.

Glock never admitted there was a problem, but they swapped us to keep us quiet.

Mike Elzigun
02-16-2008, 14:43
wow, looks like maybe Rhino was right in the beginning.

I will still never understand how people automatically equate bigger bullet diameter with a "better round".

I will also never understand how people can own XD's, look at them from a mechanical perspective, and call them better than anything. Or how people can actually want to use an HK complete with its **** triggers and ridiculous price tag.

It is totally possible that I am as biased as others in this thread but if you can get a Glock to run 100% I cant see any other better choices for the intended use.

Hopefully the ISP ends up with something that works and they can all trust. Whether that comes through firearms education or a better quality product in the end might not matter.

B Coyote
02-16-2008, 16:02
wow, looks like maybe Rhino was right in the beginning.

I will still never understand how people automatically equate bigger bullet diameter with a "better round".

I will also never understand how people can own XD's, look at them from a mechanical perspective, and call them better than anything. Or how people can actually want to use an HK complete with its **** triggers and ridiculous price tag.

It is totally possible that I am as biased as others in this thread but if you can get a Glock to run 100% I cant see any other better choices for the intended use.

Hopefully the ISP ends up with something that works and they can all trust. Whether that comes through firearms education or a better quality product in the end might not matter.

Good post.

bc

rhino465
02-17-2008, 11:43
wow, looks like maybe Rhino was right in the beginning.

There's a first time for eveything! Maybe this was "it." :supergrin:

kahrcarrier
02-17-2008, 12:16
I just bought a new G22.

Any certain block of serial numbers that seem to display these functioning problems?

Have there been very many problems reported by armed citizens?

AFA1CY
02-18-2008, 05:01
I just bought a new G22.

Any certain block of serial numbers that seem to display these functioning problems?

Have there been very many problems reported by armed citizens?

My G22 has worked great, however I have not run thousands of rounds through it.

sjstill
02-18-2008, 09:16
Odd, my MCSD issue G22, S/N BSHxxx is still going strong. Hard telling how many have 'owned' it before it was issued to me. Only problems I had with it was when there was a snap cap in the mag :shocked:

rhino465
02-18-2008, 20:47
You're always going to be able to find individual examples that run just fine. You can do the same with a Jennings or Bryco.

The bottom line is that across the thousands of guns in service, the original Glock 17 is the most reliable and trouble free gun that Glock makes or will make.

MakeMineaP99
02-18-2008, 21:09
The bottom line is that across the thousands of guns in service, the original Glock 17 is the most reliable and trouble free gun that Glock makes or will make.

A huge +1!

MTS532
02-22-2008, 18:39
Any certain block of serial numbers that seem to display these functioning problems?

Does anybody know the answer to this question? My G22 has a serial number prefix of "LEU" and has the 10-digit number stamped on the frame. It's completely stock except for the addition of Glock brand night sights.

TLHelmer
02-23-2008, 05:29
All of ours had ISP in the serial number.

Apocalypse_Now
07-05-2008, 14:27
I didn't even know you guys(ISP) even carried mattels(Glocks look like toys) until I went down yesterday to take the test in Lakeville,IN.

I will admit I do like the style. But if I can help it I would never own one. I do own the SW Sigma series .40 and 9mm which pretty much is the same style as the Glock minus the arc in the grip.

I own a Sigma .40.. and IMO S & W never made a bigger pile of doggie dooly in the history of their operations. I wouldn't even put it in the same category with a Glock. The trigger on my Sigma is like a manual construction stapler, and it is unreliable in function (yes, I have utterly cleaned it and blown it out with compressed air, and used the best lubes) I only use it for a "loaner" target gun and would never issue it to anyone for self defense. That's my experience with the Sigma, anyway

Apocalypse_Now
07-05-2008, 14:32
You're always going to be able to find individual examples that run just fine. You can do the same with a Jennings or Bryco.

The bottom line is that across the thousands of guns in service, the original Glock 17 is the most reliable and trouble free gun that Glock makes or will make.

Unless you're a 125 lb, 5 ft 5 female like my wife, who had constant FTF and stovepipes with her Gen 1, G17

It wasn't the gun, because I had zero problems and liked the G17. But I'm an ogre :supergrin: IMO it simply isn't a good weapon to issue to those with weaker grips. Her primary CCW is a M65 S & W .357 (stainless version of the of FBI gun) with full house 125 grain Remington JHPs, and she is quite profecient, so it's not like she's some wimp, just that the G17 was not a good choice for her

I have a factory rebuilt Gen 3 G22 on my desk right now with a Streamlight M3X light mounted. I'm going to shoot it for the first time on Monday and will report back on what I experience

Apocalypse_Now
07-05-2008, 14:38
I really hope the problems have been fixed. I wasn’t aware of any. It was my friends in law enforcement that talked me into getting a .40. I was considering the 17 but they said I was better off getting a .40 because they were more powerful and reliable.

Every gun will have its problem sometime right? They are machines and no machine is perfect.

The .40 is better on tempered auto glass and in tissue, with the right loads. The 9MM can do the job, but the .40 is a tad better..however there is no denying the 9MM is faster firing and easier to shoot well

I wouldn't want to be stuck with 147 grain subsonic loads, however.. all the praise in this thread for the Winchester Ranger and Speer Gold Dots in 124 grain are apparently well-warranted

Arc Angel
07-05-2008, 15:27
I really hope the problems have been fixed. I wasn’t aware of any. It was my friends in law enforcement that talked me into getting a .40. I was considering the 17 but they said I was better off getting a .40 because they were more powerful and reliable.

Every gun will have its problem sometime right? They are machines and no machine is perfect.

I love good rationale. (It's a skill!) :thumbsup:

I can hear it now: 'It's just a machine; it's just a machine!' as the bad Mo-Fo's are counting your money, taunting your wife, and beating you to death with your own pistol.

Has anyone else noticed that everytime Glock exchanges a department's malfunctioning G-22's for another model all of a sudden the gun discounters start advertising really great deals on used G-22's?

Seems to be more regular than sunrise; and, within a month of a reported factory exchange, there they are - All at a really good price, too. ;)

John NYPD
07-06-2008, 19:15
I love good rationale. (It's a skill!) :thumbsup:

I can hear it now: 'It's just a machine; it's just a machine!' as the bad Mo-Fo's are counting your money, taunting your wife, and beating you to death with your own pistol.

Has anyone else noticed that everytime Glock exchanges a department's malfunctioning G-22's for another model all of a sudden the gun discounters start advertising really great deals on used G-22's?

Seems to be more regular than sunrise; and, within a month of a reported factory exchange, there they are - All at a really good price, too. ;)

True...Its buyer BEWARE....

ISP Glocks are out there somewhere.

Glocks are good....but far from perfect.


John

Robocop
07-11-2008, 00:37
Well, my dept bought about 1200 new Glock 22 to replace our 15yr old 22's. So far we have issued out about half during our spring in service and have yet to have a single malfunction. We were sweating it when we received the new guns. Thankfully, we do not to send them back.

BuckyP
07-11-2008, 07:48
Well, my dept bought about 1200 new Glock 22 to replace our 15yr old 22's. So far we have issued out about half during our spring in service and have yet to have a single malfunction. We were sweating it when we received the new guns. Thankfully, we do not to send them back.

Were the old ones second gens? Are you running lights on the new ones?

Robocop
07-11-2008, 12:57
Were the old ones second gens? Are you running lights on the new ones?
Yes, they were second generations. There are a few of us (myself included) that were issued 3rd generation pistols when they first came out so we still have those. At this time we are only replacing the oldest pistols. No, no lights on the new ones. I have a light on mine but its not new. The SWAT team got new ones with Surefire lights and they are running Ok. Thats a small percentage but its a start. One of the range supervisors tried to get his new gun to malfunction with a Surefire. He tried pretty much everything he could think of including firing it while holding it between his thumb and first finger and it wouldn't jam. So far so good.

Apocalypse_Now
07-11-2008, 13:02
A buddy and I just took my factory rebuilt G22 with (Streamlight M3X light mounted) out into the tall trees for a little shooting session.. with well over 120 rounds fired, not one single problem, 180 grain JHPs and even a magazine of mild 155 grain lead reloads. It's gen 3, made in late 2006

9mm Luger
08-03-2008, 21:53
Any updates from the members here with the ISP, has Glock offered a reason behind all the troubles with your G22's?

TLHelmer
08-04-2008, 04:29
Any updates from the members here with the ISP, has Glock offered a reason behind all the troubles with your G22's?


Nope! They swapped us the G-17's for the all the G-22's. There was a lot of testing and turmoil that went into this. Several Glock representatives looked at the problem Glocks and a Glock Engineer from Europe came over to examin the problem Glocks. They agreed to some of the instructors that there was a problem, but never diagnosed it.

For the record the G-22 I was issued never had a problem. Two of the officers I transitioned (from the Beretta to the Glock) with had problems. One refused to carry it.

We haven't had any problems with the G-17's!

9mm Luger
08-05-2008, 22:58
Nope! They swapped us the G-17's for the all the G-22's. There was a lot of testing and turmoil that went into this. Several Glock representatives looked at the problem Glocks and a Glock Engineer from Europe came over to examin the problem Glocks. They agreed to some of the instructors that there was a problem, but never diagnosed it.

For the record the G-22 I was issued never had a problem. Two of the officers I transitioned (from the Beretta to the Glock) with had problems. One refused to carry it.

We haven't had any problems with the G-17's!
Good to hear the G17's are running well for the troopers.

After all this time I would have figured they might have come to some conclusion as to why a whole lot was so dodgy. It just seems strange, since Glocks for the most part don't fail.
Stay safe and thank you for your service. :patriot:

TLHelmer
03-11-2009, 19:21
Just FYI, The G-17's are working like champs! No problems at all!

Robocop
03-11-2009, 19:39
Just FYI, The G-17's are working like champs! No problems at all!

I don't know what Glock changed but we bought 1800 G22's last year and so far not a single malfunction. We use either the Surefire X200/300 or TLR1 with them. My personal opinion is that there was a problem with the polymer mix causing the problems. They could have corrected it without looking like they fixed anything. Again, just my own view. Glad the G17's are working well, they are good guns and 9mm is still a very capable round. I wouldn't feel bad carrying it.

TLHelmer
03-11-2009, 19:51
I have no problem with the 9mm, but I would have preferred that we waited for Glock to fix our G-22's. Some Troopers had a problem going back to the 9mm round.

mrheythere
03-11-2009, 23:17
Some Troopers had a problem going back to the 9mm round.

Really? Like what?

Many thanks.

B Coyote
03-11-2009, 23:18
Really? Like what?

Many thanks.

I'd wager that the 9mm round isn't "good enough" or that going from a .40 to a 9mm was considered a step backward.

bc

TLHelmer
03-12-2009, 05:36
I'd wager that the 9mm round isn't "good enough" or that going from a .40 to a 9mm was considered a step backward.

bc

Some of the troops felt exactly that way. I felt like they needed to make Glock find and fix the problem. Either way we now have guns that work.

TLHelmer
03-12-2009, 05:41
Really? Like what?

Many thanks.

We went to the Beretta .40 in 1998 because we had several shootings where the 9mm Federal hydra shok round were failing to expand. We carried the Beretta 40's until they started to experience major breakages. We went to the Glock 22's from the Beretta 96 until we started to have FTF's from some of the guns in the batch we received. There is a longer version of this in the thread I linked.

Some troops didn't like going back to the 9mm because they remember the problems we had with the 9mm. They didn't realize that it was a round issued not a 9mm issue.

Robocop
03-12-2009, 05:50
I'd wager that the 9mm round isn't "good enough" or that going from a .40 to a 9mm was considered a step backward.

bc
Yes, I have heard some of that from my department in reference to the ISP problem. I think that saying it is a step backward suggests that is was a step towards a more unsafe round, or less effective round. Modern 9mm ammo is quite effective.

BuckyP
03-12-2009, 06:17
We went to the Beretta .40 in 1998 because we had several shootings where the 9mm Federal hydra shok round were failing to expand. We carried the Beretta 40's until they started to experience major breakages. We went to the Glock 22's from the Beretta 96 until we started to have FTF's from some of the guns in the batch we received. There is a longer version of this in the thread I linked.

Some troops didn't like going back to the 9mm because they remember the problems we had with the 9mm. They didn't realize that it was a round issued not a 9mm issue.

That's usually the issue with the 9mm. Are they still using the 9mm hydra shok, or did they move to something more effective?

TLHelmer
03-12-2009, 06:19
That's usually the issue with the 9mm. Are they still using the 9mm hydra shok, or did they move to something more effective?

We are now issued the Speer Gold Dot 147 grain 9mm round.

IndyBassin
03-12-2009, 07:44
Just FYI, The G-17's are working like champs! No problems at all!

Heh, looks like Rhino made a good call early on in this post :cool:

Personally, I'd be comfortable shooting either round.

IndyBassin
03-12-2009, 07:45
We are now issued the Speer Gold Dot 147 grain 9mm round.

Do you guys test different rounds? I carry a G19 with HST's, because I hear they were a step up from the Hydra-shoks. I hear great things about the Gold Dots as well.

TLHelmer
03-12-2009, 13:49
The firearms section did test a number of rounds. Their specs for this trial stated that it had to be a bonded round. We almost always seem to go with the heaviest grain round in that caliber. We did carry a 165 gr. .40 round in the late nineties when we were issued the Beretta 96-G.

"Cold Dead Hands" !
03-12-2009, 17:28
"Wow, what a great response" !!!
I didn't know it, but this .40 Glock problem thread started on 02/27/2006
Proud to say I started this thread again, 3 years later, on 03/11/2009
Because the Stopping Power forum had threads about .40 Glock problems.
What a great Forum.
It took hours to read all of the posts.
But, the info was excellent & entertaining.

I guess were still not sure if the .40 cal. Glocks are perfected yet ?

bradp
03-12-2009, 18:36
"Wow" !!!
"Proud to say I started this thread, what a great response" !
What a great Forum.
It took hours to read all of the posts.
But, the info was excellent & entertaining.
Needless-to-say, I will be buying a 9mm or .45 GLOCK !
Thank you all !

Not a .357 SIG, I love mine and no FTF's either