Why not a semi-auto?

[cjp85]

After reading many of the threads here, it seems that the majority of people choose a pump-action for their home defense shotguns. I'm just curious as to why more people haven't opted for a semi-auto instead. Are they unreliable? Is it a money issue? I don't know much about semi-auto shotguns, so please enlighten me.

[Forensik]

I would have gotten an M1 over my Nova, but they are a bit spendy. 300 bucks vs. 1000 bucks.

Also, for a home defense gun, there is nothing better than the rack of the slide. I keep mine loaded but not chambered. That way if somebody breaks in they will hear the rack of the slide. This tells them 2 things:

1. I HAVE a shotgun

and 2. (racks slide) I just loaded it!

[UrbanCowboy]

I chose a pump because there is less chance of a malfunction. Also Semi Autos will usually not function correctly with low recoil ammo. The only advantage I see with a semi-auto is less recoil. With training you can be almost as fast with a pump as you can be with the Semi. Racking the slide CAN be a bad thing because it point your position out.

[Forensik]

I suppose it would reveal ones position, but I live in a 2 bedroom apt. The only people I worry about would be some drunk or robber in the middle of the night.

No spec ops clearing buildings or any tacticool stuff like that. Just simple home defense, so I doubt that the bad of giving my position would out weight the bad guys thought, "OMFG HES GOT A SHOTGUN!!!"

[UrbanCowboy]

The problem I see with that is if the intruder has a gun. If he/she hears the shotgun bieng racked, they might instinctively shoot at the sound. I know I would. I see racking the slide for intimidation in the same ballpark as flashing a gun. Bad idea.

[Forensik]

Maybe, I have not given that too much thought.

I dont really want to leave a loaded, chambered shotgun under my bed. Dunno why I don't like that idea, but I just don't.
The only gun I leave loaded is my G23, which is also under my bed.

I have been planning on putting a light on the front of my shotty too, do you use a light or keep your shotty chambered, just curious?

[UrbanCowboy]

I keep the mag in mine loaded but do not keep a round chambered since there is no drop safety to speak of. I figure I can just rack it as soon I pick it because the intruder will not be in the room with me. I do have a Surefire foregrip on mine.

[Ron3]

Semi-auto's are more expensive, and pump actions work fast enough for the job. Thats what it comes down to.

As for racking of the slide being intimidating, I think racking the charging handle on a semi-auto shotgun or rifle sends just as clear a message.

As mentioned though, it gives away your position. I don't see how to avoid it, unless you leave it chambered, which may be unsafe.

[Forensik]

Well, I had always pictured the situation going as such:

I wake up in the middle of the night with noise in my front room/at the front door.

I identfy/hear that an intruder is inside, grab gun, rack slide and yell from bedroom "get the f out," after I just made sure to rack the slide hard and make some noise.

Yes it means they know I am in the bedroom, but where else would I be? I would not do it in the hallway or as I approached someone from behind.

So I think that Urban Cowboy and I are on the same page, except that I want him to hear me LOAD A GUN in the bedroom, while he still has not gotten in too far. AT this point I would yell out to him to leave, call the cops and drop behind the bed. Turn on light on shotgun and cover doorway.

I just dont see how that would be a bad sequence.

Anyone got any other ideas?

[sjstill]

UC, its not the freaking hedgerows of France, its your house - the BG already has a pretty good idea of where you're at ;Q Unless you live in a 30 room mansion, there's not many places you would be at oh-dark hour - in bed or on the can....

Sling and Surefire forend or other means of mounted light are necessary on any long gun used for home defense, IMO.

My 870 is loaded cruiser ready with slugs, muzzle down beside the headboard.

[walkin' trails]

The more reliable semis are quite a bit more expensive than a decent pump. That aside, semis, even the more reliable ones can be a bit finiky with loads and may not cycle as reliably. An 870 Remington will feed anything you put in as long as it is the correct ammo for the gun regardless of the pressure of the load.

[Herdsman76]

I have a Remington Competition Master which is loaded and a round chambered. Although I totally understand the reliability of a pump action, I have difficulty using one due to a disability. Hence a semi-auto is the way for me to go.

If you decide to use a semi, definitely try out various defense loads before you actually start using it for HD. I found out that my shottie doesn't like any Winchester brand shells along with a couple of other brands. After experimentation, I settled on Remington slugs and 00 Buck as my primnary HD ammo.

Since I use the shottie in 3-Gun matches, I've become quite familiar with it's operation, strengths and weaknesses. At the very least, practice with yours should you use a semi.

Although it may already be known, Remington replaced the Comp Master with the Remington Tactical which I plan on buying at some point. Looks to be the same Shottie with a different paint job.

H76

[muscogee]

Originally posted by Forensik
Well, I had always pictured the situation going as such:

I wake up in the middle of the night with noise in my front room/at the front door.

I identfy/hear that an intruder is inside, grab gun, rack slide and


the intruder, knowing where you are and realizing you have a loaded shotgun, empties his handgun in your direction and blows you away.

I don’t want the intruder to know that I know.

[22highcaps]

My thoughts:

For HD, I prefer a semi-auto. The ammo is a known quantity. Find a brand of standard #4,#1,or #00 buck that works in your gun and stick with it. Keep your HD clean and there will be no malfunctions. No chance of short shucking the semi-auto.

For SHTF, I defer to the pump because you may not have access to ammo that works in the semi-auto.

[EmTFoRLiFe 2004]

I Have a Benelli M1 tactical with pistol grip, magazine ext, and surefire light. But if someone breaks into my house I going to shoot them with my G17 or Nova, Because my M1 was to expensive and hard to find to have it taken away becuase I just shot someone with it.

Now if the SHTF its semi-auto time. Also I have not found a load of 12guage ammo that my M1 will not cycle.

[Ron3]

Originally posted by muscogee
the intruder, knowing where you are and realizing you have a loaded shotgun, empties his handgun in your direction and blows you away.

I don’t want the intruder to know that I know.

I know what you mean. Thats one reason why it's a good idea to get behind some type of cover then chamber your round and call police. If bullets do come your way through the door or wall, you have some protection.

And if your cover isn't very good you'd better return fire fast.

I would rather have these choices then leave my shotgun with a round in the chamber.

Everyone has to decide whats best for them.

[Tacticalweapon]

The Saiga 12 is the most reliable semi-auto shotgun in the world and its not expensive unless you want to do a conversion to it. (Assault Shotgun). Charging the gun is just as loud and intimadating as a pump action.

[Tacticalweapon]

The Saiga 12 is the most reliable semi-auto shotgun in the world and its not expensive unless you want to do a conversion to it. (Assault Shotgun). Charging the gun is just as loud and intimidating as a pump action.

[CAcop]

Mostly I think the big reasons are in order:

1. Cheaper.
2. Police departments have used them forever so we are used to seeing them.
3. Cheaper.
4. On the average more reliable. You are going to have to break something on a pump to get it to fail.
5. Cheaper.
6. Intimidation of loading but autos are pretty loud anyway.
7. Cheaper.
8. People hunt with them because high volumes of fire are discouraged anyway so why bother with an auto.
9. Cheaper.

Seriously who wants to spend a lot of money on something that is going to sit around until you throw a dozen or so slugs and buck at the range. Maybe you buy some Wally World value packs but even a few dozen of those is going to start to wear on you. When I went to my instructor school my shoulder was sore from throwing a few hundred shotgun trap loads downrange in a couple of days. I hadn't fired more than a few dozen rounds in the eight years between the academy and the class and it didn't take much for me to hit what I needed to hit.

[Tacticalweapon]

Originally posted by CAcop
Mostly I think the big reasons are in order:

1. Cheaper.
2. Police departments have used them forever so we are used to seeing them.
3. Cheaper.
4. On the average more reliable. You are going to have to break something on a pump to get it to fail.
5. Cheaper.
6. Intimidation of loading but autos are pretty loud anyway.
7. Cheaper.
8. People hunt with them because high volumes of fire are discouraged anyway so why bother with an auto.
9. Cheaper.

Seriously who wants to spend a lot of money on something that is going to sit around until you throw a dozen or so slugs and buck at the range. Maybe you buy some Wally World value packs but even a few dozen of those is going to start to wear on you. When I went to my instructor school my shoulder was sore from throwing a few hundred shotgun trap loads downrange in a couple of days. I hadn't fired more than a few dozen rounds in the eight years between the academy and the class and it didn't take much for me to hit what I


needed to hit.


The Saiga 12 only has the recoil of a 20 gauge.

[CAcop]

Originally posted by Tacticalweapon
The Saiga 12 only has the recoil of a 20 gauge.

I said big reasons and there was a wee bit of humor in there.

[EOD]

I see racking the slide for intimidation in the same ballpark as flashing a gun. Bad idea.


Somebody gets it! I heard that intimidtation crap all through my LE training classes and career. When it happend, they responded by shooting at me. Apparently they didn't take the same classes and realize they were supposed to be intimidated. Good to see poeple using their heads instead of listening to old war stories.

Same applies to lasers. I hear these gun show types always laying that intimidation line on new customers..."The bad guys will see the red dot on them and take off." B.S. I know of one instance where the drug dealers got pissed at someone shining a red dot on them and opend fire.

[ironmind]

Originally posted by EOD
I see racking the slide for intimidation in the same ballpark as flashing a gun. Bad idea.


Somebody gets it! I heard that intimidtation crap all through my LE training classes and career. When it happend, they responded by shooting at me. Apparently they didn't take the same classes and realize they were supposed to be intimidated. Good to see poeple using their heads instead of listening to old war stories.

Same applies to lasers. I hear these gun show types always laying that intimidation line on new customers..."The bad guys will see the red dot on them and take off." B.S. I know of one instance where the drug dealers got pissed at someone shining a red dot on them and opend fire.

good stuff here. WTF do you need a laser on a shotgun for anyway? It's a shotgun fer crying out loud. White light yes! Don't wanna shoot the dog or daughters' BF. (be more descreet if you need to shoot him) I keep my loads alternated between shot/slug/shot/slug...none chambered.

[Atlasx]

I have the best of both worlds or at least good enuff :), a Mossberg with the long tube, and a Saiga 12 plus a Glock 22 all with Hornady tactical ammo

good shootin'
Atlasx:)

[epsylum]

Why an auto?

They recoil less and much higher rate of aimed fire.

I sold my only pump, 870 express, when I bought my first auto ,Saiga 12. I then bought another auto, my Remington 1100 Competiton Master. I freakin love autos.

Like someone said before just try out some facotry loads, find ones they like and stick with them. For instance I know for plinking my 1100 CM HATES the Winchester bulk pack stuff, but loves the Federal bulk pack. My Saiga feeds ANYTHING, I have sent about 1000 rounds down range of all kinds of stuff with it without a single failure.

The only other shotty I want is one of those FN Self Loading Police autos. After that I think I will have all the shotguns I want, unless I find another deal on a Saiga 12 again. ;)

[M1Garand]

For civilian home defense, a pump action and a semi works equally well. With modern design and manufacturing process, they are both reliable and accurate. Semi has additional advantage of softer recoil and faster reload.

LE tends to use pump because the variety of loads, LEO uses on duty, ie, 00 bucks, slugs, tear gas, breaching rounds, impact munitions, etc. For these variety of loads, a pump action will surely function everytime without any dependency on the type of rounds.

I believe that a lot of home owners are buying pump actions simply because the LEO are using pump actions without knowing the true reason behind the advantage and disadvantage of pump vs. semi.

[870pilot]

Originally posted by Forensik
I would have gotten an M1 over my Nova, but they are a bit spendy. 300 bucks vs. 1000 bucks.

Also, for a home defense gun, there is nothing better than the rack of the slide. I keep mine loaded but not chambered. That way if somebody breaks in they will hear the rack of the slide. This tells them 2 things:

1. I HAVE a shotgun

and 2. (racks slide) I just loaded it!

and trust me... closing the bolt on my rem 11-87 semi is just as, if not more, an alert to the bad guys... but on that note, by loading the chamber in that situation, you have identified location to the BG

i have an 870 and an 11-87... to me... equally worthy

[Tacticalweapon]

Originally posted by 870pilot
and trust me... closing the bolt on my rem 11-87 semi is just as, if not more, an alert to the bad guys... but on that note, by loading the chamber in that situation, you have identified location to the BG

i have an 870 and an 11-87... to me... equally worthy


I find a good semi auto shotgun just as loud as a pump when chambering a round.


One of the dangerous problems with a pump is short shucking. A life threating situation arises in the middle of the night while your half asleep in bed. In the stress of the moment you forget to rack your pump or rack it far enough. Its been know to happen a lot "STRESS" Or you get the first one off but miss you then don't completly rack the slide on the second round. You pull the trigger and nothing. An intruder just killed you and your family.


If your used to using a semi auto most of the time use it for self defense. Don't use a pump.


If your used to using a pump keep using it. Just don't go from a semi auto to a pump for home defense. Shotgun tactical defense instructors see this all of the time in training courses. People that always use semi autos bring pumps to the course. Put under stress the semi auto guys with pumps start short scucking. The instructors tell them to bring their autos to the course instead.

[BigFatDog]

The main reason I don't use a semi auto...I haven't found a Benelli M3 or M4 at a price I'm willing to pay. When I do the pump will join my revolver as my safe-space back-up.

[sixshooterfan]

I'm used to semiautos and O/U. I went skeet shooting with my brother and a friend and ended up using a pump. For the first round, about 1/3 the time I forgot to rack the damn thing for the second shot. Very embarrasing.

Semiauto for me.

[sjstill]

So, its the shotguns fault that YOU forgot to rack the slide?

I see....

Much easier to blame the inanimate object than your lack of common sense or training.

[sixshooterfan]

That was fairly insulting. You must be a big man to say such things on an internet forum. The point was that you should use what you are familiar with - and for me that is semi-autos.

[Tacticalweapon]

Originally posted by sjstill
So, its the shotguns fault that YOU forgot to rack the slide?

I see....

Much easier to blame the inanimate object than your lack of common sense or training.

How did you arrive at the Idea that I ment to imply that its the shotguns fault? Short shucking is always the shooters problem.


Some of the most experienced LEO and Military personel put under life threating stress will do the same thing. No amount of training will 100% prevent this problem.

[sjstill]

Oh, sweetie I'm so sorry I insulted you. Poor, poor widdle thing.

I would say the same thing to your face, have no fear.

My point is you should be aware of what tool you have in your hands and how it works.

Originally posted by speakerguy
That was fairly insulting. You must be a big man to say such things on an internet forum. The point was that you should use what you are familiar with - and for me that is semi-autos.

[sjstill]

A little reading comp might be in order. I wasn't referring to you or your post.

Yes, short-shucking IS the shooter's fault, how could it be otherwise? If the shooter doesn't understand the dynamics of the weapon, then he/she/it sholdn't be using it.

Originally posted by Tacticalweapon
How did you arrive at the Idea that I ment to imply that its the shotguns fault? Short shucking is always the shooters problem.


Some of the most experienced LEO and Military personel put under life threating stress will do the same thing. No amount of training will 100% prevent this problem.

[Tacticalweapon]

Originally posted by sjstill
Oh, sweetie I'm so sorry I insulted you. Poor, poor widdle thing.

I would say the same thing to your face, have no fear.

My point is you should be aware of what tool you have in your hands and how it works.



YOUR MAKING A MISTAKE WITH SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOUR SAYING TO PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM. EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM WILL ONLY CONSIDER YOU A COWARD FOR YOUR UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR AND YOUR ATTEMPTS TO INTIMADATE FELLOW MEMBERS.

[sjstill]

Tacticalweapon, again, I was not referring to you or your posts.

There is a lot of misinformation being bandied about in this thread. I see no reason to sugar coat a reply, to you or anyone else, regardless of how cool your username is....

[Tacticalweapon]

Originally posted by sjstill
Tacticalweapon, again, I was not referring to you or your posts.

There is a lot of misinformation being bandied about in this thread. I see no reason to sugar coat a reply, to you or anyone else, regardless of how cool your username is....



Gun owners need to stick together and not fight one another on gun forums. Our opponents are the anti-gun owners (not each other)they just love it when they see us fight causing division in our ranks.

2008 is going to be an incredible fight for our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

[sixshooterfan]

thank you tactical

my whole point was that I am INEXPERIENCED with pumps, had never used one before and they are NOT AT ALL what I have trained with. I tried using one once with no training and GUESS WHAT? I tried to treat it like a semi or an O/U that I am used to. And I admitted it was quite embarassing.

THE WHOLE POINT was to not use something you are not familiar with or that you have not trained with, not to blame anything on the gun. try as hard as i might but after I said "pull" i went into skeet-mode and all too often forgot to rack the damn thing for the second shot. to say I lack common sense just becuase habit/muscle memory/whatever took over when I was shooting is not a legitamite comment. it is just rude. and if you are that rude in person, congratulations you are an *** in real life too

[disco stu]

Originally posted by Forensik
I would have gotten an M1 over my Nova, but they are a bit spendy. 300 bucks vs. 1000 bucks.

Also, for a home defense gun, there is nothing better than the rack of the slide. I keep mine loaded but not chambered. That way if somebody breaks in they will hear the rack of the slide. This tells them 2 things:

1. I HAVE a shotgun

and 2. (racks slide) I just loaded it!

It also tells them where you are. Do you really want to lose the advantage of concealment and surprise?

[disco stu]

Originally posted by Forensik
Well, I had always pictured the situation going as such:

I wake up in the middle of the night with noise in my front room/at the front door.

I identfy/hear that an intruder is inside, grab gun, rack slide and yell from bedroom "get the f out," after I just made sure to rack the slide hard and make some noise.

Yes it means they know I am in the bedroom, but where else would I be? I would not do it in the hallway or as I approached someone from behind.

So I think that Urban Cowboy and I are on the same page, except that I want him to hear me LOAD A GUN in the bedroom, while he still has not gotten in too far. AT this point I would yell out to him to leave, call the cops and drop behind the bed. Turn on light on shotgun and cover doorway.

I just dont see how that would be a bad sequence.

Anyone got any other ideas?

So he knows you have a gun in the bedroom. if he's not conmpletely stupid, he'll leave. If he has any smarts, he'll come back when you're not home, go to your bedroom and take your weapon.

[Short Cut]

I like a semi auto although they are more expensive. The recoil is considerably softer and I find it is faster on follow ups than a pump. This a special version of a Remington 1100 called a Competition Master. It has a capacity of 8+1 and comes with everything except for the light.

A pump can be a great HD gun and you get a lot for your money, but when their fervent supporters start talking about how they are so much more reliable than a good semi-auto like a Remington 1100 I just roll my eyes. If you use good ammo a gun doesn't get much more reliable than an 1100 that's cared for. I'd say that the odds of this gun having a failure with Federal 00 buckshot is every bit as low as a trained person short stroking a pump shotgun.

Here's mine:

http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/HD_Shotgun.jpg

[sixshooterfan]

How does the 1100 compare to the 1187? Can I get them in 18.5" with all black hardware/finish?

[Short Cut]

The 11-87 takes 3" shells whereas the 1100's max is 2.75". The model I posted was discontinued and now is available again with slight changes and an 18" version.

Here's more info:
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/tactical_shotgun_specs.asp

[sixshooterfan]

Yeah the OD green just doesn't do it for me. I'm a fan of basic black. Hrm... Thanks for the clarification about the 1100 and 1187 btw.

[9mmMike]

http://www.therallypoint.org/forum/index.php?topic=522.0

[9mmMike]

Originally posted by Short Cut
The 11-87 takes 3" shells whereas the 1100's max is 2.75". The model I posted was discontinued and now is available again with slight changes and an 18" version.

Here's more info:
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/tactical_shotgun_specs.asp

The new G3 1100 can use 3" shells.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_G3.asp

Mike

[Short Cut]

Originally posted by 9mmMike
The new G3 1100 can use 3" shells.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_G3.asp

Mike

That's a nice looking shotty. Almost too pretty for mucking around in a duck blind.

clic pic

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/lgsil_1100g3.jpg (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_G3_specs.asp)

[epsylum]

I also have the Comp Master. I like it, but it is more picky about ammo than my Saiga (my HD shotty). Also I have had some light surface rust issues with the 1100.

http://www.photodump.com/direct/epsylum/MyLongGuns5-17-06a.jpg

[9mmMike]

Please stop posting pictures of those wicked Saiga's. My safe is full and this can only lead to one (or two) thing(s)...... ;)

[9mmMike]

Originally posted by Short Cut
That's a nice looking shotty. Almost too pretty for mucking around in a duck blind.

clic pic

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/lgsil_1100g3.jpg (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_G3_specs.asp)

Did you notice that the wood is fake?

"New Realwood™ carbon reinforced Semi-Fancy Walnut laminate stock and matching fore-end"

Pretty cool!

[epsylum]

Originally posted by 9mmMike
Please stop posting pictures of those wicked Saiga's. My safe is full and this can only lead to one (or two) thing(s)...... ;)

I hate to rub salt in the wound, but wait until you shoot one. ;) If I had to have only one shotty, that Remington would be gone in a heartbeat.

[mstirton]

epsylum, wait till you get that FN SLP, I just picked one up and it is SWEEEEET!

[Short Cut]

Originally posted by epsylum
I hate to rub salt in the wound, but wait until you shoot one. ;) If I had to have only one shotty, that Remington would be gone in a heartbeat.

It looks like it would balance a lot differntly/better than the Remington when they are both fully loaded. The Saiga looks like most of it's loaded weight is in the middle. Is that so? How do they compare that way?

[Ignition]

saw a sagia 12 at a gun show today.... almost picked it back up, but because i need to purchase some plane tickets and car problems again i am delayed in picking up the best all around shotgun hands down... only problem is getting extra mags and dealing with stupid importation.... if only they could be made in the USA

[epsylum]

Originally posted by Short Cut
It looks like it would balance a lot differntly/better than the Remington when they are both fully loaded. The Saiga looks like most of it's loaded weight is in the middle. Is that so? How do they compare that way?

I am keeping my Remmy for when I finally try my hand at some shotgun sports (I am mainly interested in skeet). The Remmy is my sporitng shotty and the Saiga is my HD shotty.

Re: balance, the Saiga balances a lot like an AK, especially setup the way I have it (pistol grip, folding stock 18" barrel etc.) The old "sporter" way is sort of an odd feeling at first as it is long and has a normal long gun type stock, but it is balanced more like a semi-auto rifle, with the weight right in the middle.

Right now I do have about the same amount in my Saiga as I do in the Remmy, but that Saiga brings a smile to the face of anyone that shoots it (especially me :supergrin: ) so I feel it is worth it and would do it all over again (and may with another one ;) ).

Ignition, I hope you get another one. Don't forget that FBMG has them and you can even order them already converted by Tromix IIRC.

[Ignition]

yup saving money to order from fmbg.... that was my orig plan but the gun show i went to really made me want it even more

[demusn79]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/th_IM000763.jpg (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/IM000763.jpg)
Daytime Remmy Mod 11 loaded safety on
Nighttime AR loaded safety on
No warning noises if you ain't runnin I'm gunnin.:shocked:
That means your back towards me headed for the door!:wow: