LEM trigger compared to Glocks?

[FatBob]

I've considered a fullsize USP 9mm for a while, to be used primarily as a range gun (I'd get a Jet funnel kit for it, while their still available) :supergrin:. I'm interested in the LEM models, but I haven't found an LEM to check out localy, but was wondering how it compares to a Glock trigger? Or is it basically a DAO gun?

I have two other USP's and both are Variant 1, and I like the DA/SA option. However, I have some Glocks, and I like the trigger on them as well.

*** I did a search, and didn't find what I was looking for. Sorry if this has been discussed 1,000 times and I missed it.

[TLHelmer]

Great question! Anyone know?

[Polluxius]

I shot a USPc LEM at the range last week, as well as my glock 19. I was comparing them for myself. The LEM was a longer trigger pull, and seemed to be quite smooth for DAO. The Glock is short, crisp, and heavy to me. The Glock seemed to have a shorter reset, but I am no expert. I love my Glock, but I am about to buy a HK P2000 with a DA/SA trigger. I liked it better.

[uncut]

The LEM is not a DAO.....
Germans call it "Combat defense action" with a Pull of about 7.5 to 8.5 pounds
It will be like on your Glock same trigger pull first to last shot....however you have double strike capability

*edit... there is also DAO for the USP's...

[Rikki]

I have a new HK uspc in .45 with the LEM.
It's a pretty long take up- but with the gun already cycled my trigger breaks at 4# 3oz...THAT pull starts at just under 1#.

For the "second strike" on a ctg. it is a hard take up all the way and breaks at 9# 8 oz. THAT pull starts at just a tick over 6#
On BOTH breaks- you can definitely feel the HK stack up just before it breaks.

I LIKE the LEM on the HK, and because of the way I train, it's probably the only HK I could ever carry.(same operator ctls as a Glock)
My Glocks break about 4#...MUCH shorter take up, but not as "crisp" a break as the HK...My Glocks are a little "mushy" when they break.

I don't shoot either gun of the 're-set'..so I can't comment on that.

[TLHelmer]

I knew this was going to be a good thread.

My Springfield XD feels the same, but it doesn't have the second strike capability.

[FatBob]

Thanks for all the info guys!

I decided to get a new USP. But I decided to stick with the Variant 1. In all honesty I never tried the LEM trigger (never had a chance too). But I figured since my other USP's are Variant 1, I want to keep them all the same (same manual of arms for training purposes). I'm picking up my new USPf tonight!

That makes THREE USP purchases for me this year (ie. in the last three months!)! "Hi, I'm FatBob, and I'm and HKaholic." :supergrin:

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know why the LEM trigger models, in the fullsize USP's, is like $100 cheaper than the others?

[ShipWreck]

The initial takeup of the LEM is very light, but the final breaking pt is heavier than I would like. I have a var 1 USP full size, and will be buying the same type in a compact USP soon.

The LEM is nice for duty carry. But I got my USp as a range gun. And, the LEM is not super conducive to that, in my opinion. While it is fairly light, it is too long of a pull for just range use, I think.

If it was my carry gun, however, I might be tempted to go with it.

[steel]

A friend of mine has a P2000 with the LEM trigger, and we have shot it side by side with our Glocks. We have a much more difficult time making accurate hits with the LEM trigger and, as a result, we both prefer the Glock trigger. You made a wise choice staying with the variant 1.

[jmoln]

Steele,

This question is a variation of the topic starter. Could you comment on the perceived recoil and flip on the P2000 versus your Glock (9mm I hope)? In addition to trigger length I find that my accuracy is sensitive to flip. I've compared a Walther P99 I owned to my Glock 19 and 26 and find the Walther to have much more pronounced flip than either Glock. While the P99 grip ergonomics are superior the short trigger pull (second shot or SA) and flip make my accuracy noticably worse. Thus I have settled on the Glock and renounced the P99. However I still have an interest in the P2000 and cannot find one to rent and don't know anyone who has one that I can try a the range.

Your thoughts please.

jmoln

[steel]

It is a P2000 in .40. We shot it side by side with several Glocks, all in .40 (G23, G22 and G35), .45 and 10mm. We don't own any Glocks or H&Ks in 9mm.

Honestly, I just didn't like the long pull before it broke/fired. I am so used to Glocks (I probably shoot as well or better with Glocks than with any other handgun - IMO the trigger is fantastic), that the LEM trigger just felt weird. I shot it a few times and said "No thanks." My friend has continued to try to improve his skill with the LEM trigger, to no avail, and now he is thinking about selling it. I felt that the LEM trigger had a longer reset than the Glocks. I also felt like it was harder to get into a rhythm of anticipated the reset. You know, with Glocks, this is pretty easy to do. The only trigger out there that's better is a good 1911, but that's a whole different subject.

I hope this helps.

[jmoln]

Thanks for the trigger comment and don't forget the H&K P7 trigger. Some have compared it to the 1911. Anyway, my primary question was the "flip". Any comments on P2000 "flip" versus Glock?

[steel]

Yea, it flipped more than my G23. It's about the same size as the G23, too. I much preferred my G23, and thought it handled the recoil better; maybe it's the angle of the grip.

[haywood]

i previously had a g27 (subcomp .40) and think it is a very good shooting .40cal. had it about 3 months then handled a p2000sk in .40cal and the grip alone made me want it.

after taking my p2000sk to the range, i concluded that the p2000sk handled .40cal noticeably better than my g27. not to say my g27 was bad, but there was a significant difference... not as much snap/flip as my g27. i am guessing it is the bulkier slide (or could be the hk recoil system) but the g27 definitely had more snap/flip to it (still decent, tho).

the LEM trigger is a damn good trigger system.... ONCE you learn it. the LEM is not a trigger you can go and shoot a couple of times to evaluate it. as for me, it took a good 500rds before i actually started to learn the trigger. in the end, you should test it decide for yourself.

PS- i have since sold my g27.

[unloaded]

The LEM pull can be changed with different springs. There's a nice thread on it HERE. (http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=288918&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)
I have the P2000 in .40 V3. There were no LEM's available locally. Since then I've dry fired one. Hard to make a call based on that. If it is completely uncocked though, it feels the same as the first pull on my gun. When you start from "half-cocked" there is a noticeable difference, but because it was dry fire, I couldn't get a good feel for it or the reset.

peace.
unloaded

[haywood]

i estimate the reset on the LEM trigger is about a 1/4 of an inch (travel from tip of trigger) until reset. on that note, i am able to fire my p2000sk faster than my previous g27, after getting used to not fully releasing the trigger.

to add to "unloaded's" previous post:
you can never put the v2-LEM trigger, in the v3-SA/DA "completely uncocked" heavier trigger-pull state.

there is no way to optionally place your LEM into that condition on your own. the LEM trigger was made to have the same consistant trigger pull each and every time (like the glocks). the difference with the LEM is... once you load a round into the chamber, the trigger will stay at the DA position but with a light takeup before the SA trigger pull. think of it as basically a 7-8 pound DAO (unless you do the HK spring swap to 5 pounds) with a light takeup.

the ONLY time it will be that heavy is during the "2nd-strike" capability on a misfired cartridge. otherwise, each time the slide is racked... it will be pre-cocked in the previously explained LEM state.

[unloaded]

haywood is right, by "uncocked" I meant after the dry-fire without racking the slide to pre-cock it. I joined a gun club recently and hopefully will run into another member with an LEM gun. I really would like to try one with actual rounds. I'm thinking of getting into some of the pistol games at the club, but that first DA shot on mine is quite heavy. Maybe I just need to practice more with it. Shot my father-in-law's Para-Carry 6.45 LDA last weekend. Now that is a sweet trigger system. I wonder how the LEM with lighter springs compares to it?

peace.
unloaded

[haywood]

i have the two HK springs that are needed to do the trigger job to make the trigger pull just about 5.5 pounds, but i have only tried replacing the trigger return (TR) spring. it made the LEM trigger have almost no resistance in the take up before the actually SA trigger pull.

i did not like the feeling of it what so ever (being my sk is for SD/HD) and so i put in the original TR spring back. in comparison, i do like the resisitance of the stock pull... but just may try only using the other spring (FPB) to lighten just the SA pull. i am actually happy with the stock LEM, especially after trying the TR spring but i do believe that just swapping only the FPB spring will make it it that much better. it is already a very smooth trigger and so far, it hits exactly what i am aiming at. the FPB spring alone should make it just THAT much smoother.

theres a thread on HKPro by BigBore that shows exaclty how the trigger job is done. i am not sure if they found a way to lighten up your v3 trigger yet, tho. happy shooting.

[Rodman]

i rented an H&K USP 9mm with the LEM trigger system last week and i didnt like it. mainly because of the length of trigger pull and the reset. i am so use to shooting 1911s and Glocks. i much preferred the Glock trigger to the LEM, but thats just my opinion. i kept expecting it to break and then i noticed i was dropping the barrel and shooting low. i havent done this since i started shooting many years ago. i am sure i could get use to it if i shot it exclusively but i dont think i would be as accurate or as fast with it as i am with the 1911s and glocks. it was a nice setup but just not my cup of tea. if i was going with another H&K it would be a DA/SA. hope that helps some, good luck in your decision.

[haywood]

it kind of was like that for me in the beginning, but as most people who who have learned the LEM, will tell you... you have to get used to how to shoot it. i had my g27 (first glock) for almost 4 months before getting my p2000sk LEM. when i first got my glock i had to get used to it too. every time i shot it i seemd to have to guess when it was gonna break, due to the spongy area before it actually fired. i had to learn when it was going to actually fire. my old ruger p95 was not like that, so i had to transition. the same went for my SK, after getting used to the glock. i also shot low at first, because the trigger seemed so different. as time went on it actually get easier and easier. the LEM is learned or transitioned to... its not a trigger system that most will pick up in just a range session.

alot of people fully release the trigger and think the trigger pull is too long. then youre defeating one of the main features of the LEM. after the light LEM take-up, my p2000sk trigger is a 1/8 inch and 1/4 inch reset.

-one of the FIRST things i learned (for target shooting) was to ignore the light take-up before the SA pull. i would pull all the light take-up until i felt the SA resistance and hold it there.

-from that point, i have the same SA as a v3. after each shot i would only release the trigger one quarter of an inch (where the reset is set) and then fire again.


this may seem like a slow process, but thats how it will be at first and eventually become a learned reflex. my SK is only maybe 2 months old, but i shoot the LEM like a SA now. (NOTE) my LEM was purchased for SD/HD. if you are looking strictly for a range only gun, the v3 SA/DA may be a better choice for you.