The FBI 1076s: Some "Hidden History" ...

[agtman]

Maybe most 10Ringers have already seen the page at the link below, but a lot of thanks goes to Gary ("gnappi") over on 10mmTalk.com for posting it.

The link takes you to a new page on Gary's 10mm site containing previously unknown information concerning the FBI's adoption of the 10mm AUTO and the Bureau's difficult relationship with Smith & Wesson over the 1076 pistols.

Gary's source is a now-retired agent who had been assigned to the Bureau's FTU. He was intimately involved in the adoption of the 10mm 1076. Gary's article does a great service for those who are less familiar with this aspect of the gun's history.

For fans of the 10mm cartridge and/or the 1076 pistol, the information provided reveals some "hidden history" from inside the FBI in the very late 80s and early 90s.

It's simply too good not to receive a wider distribution.

See: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/history.htm

:cool:

[Masque]

So the FBI found a 10mm 180gr Sierra JHP at 980fps to outperform the vaunted 230gr HydraShok .45ACP?

And DoubleTap's 180gr Gold Dot loads are 1300fps?

Oh boy. Here we go. Post this in General Glocking and watch the .45ACP fans go nuts.

This should be fun. :popcorn:

[nvrquit]

So, let's see if I've got this one straight.

Owing to an internal urination contest between new fav's and ex-fav's, of which one of the latter will not participate in oral administration of homage to the posterior of the new pack leader, this leads to the most effective round/pistol combo(disputably perhaps) being killed in infancy.

To top this off, the lone supplier then shorts the lifespan of the product line related to said pistol on a buyout with our own tax dollars. Oh, this is so sick in political male bovine feces and near cowardice of a producer/manufacturer, that decided(speculatively on my part) there existed no viable free market desire for such a product. And this is then all covered with a fanciful story of agents not capable of handling the new line's power(not to mention a few other missives that accompanied that cover).

I wonder just what S&W would like to say to this, should one bring this up at, oh say, the SHOT Show, in front of a lot of other fellow 10mm'ers with a nice petition/request for re-intro of the line. Then again, that would be counter-productive I suppose. But hey, S&W hasn't been very responsive to polite and courteous requests.

Ah heck, I guess I'm just a little to passionate about this.....

[nickE10mm]

Originally posted by nvrquit
So, let's see if I've got this one straight.

Owing to an internal urination contest between new fav's and ex-fav's, of which one of the latter will not participate in oral administration of homage to the new pack leader, this leads to the most effective round/pistol combo(disputably perhaps) being killed in infancy.

To top this off, the lone supplier then shorts the lifespan of the product line related to said pistol on a buyout with our own tax dollars. Oh, this so sick in political male bovine feces and near cowardice of a producer/manufacturer, that decided(speculatively on my part) there existed no viable free market desire for such a product. And this is then all covered with a fanciful story of agents not capable of handling the new line's power(not to mention a few other missives that accompanied that cover).

I wonder just what S&W would like to say to this, should one bring this up at, oh say, the SHOT Show, in front of a lot of other fellow 10mm'ers with a nice petition/request for re-intro of the line. Then again, that would be counter-productive I suppose. But hey, S&W hasn't been very responsive to polite and courteous requests.

Ah heck, I guess I'm just a little to passionate about this.....

HA! Well spoken. I agree.

:beer:

[noway]

I was cool with most of the text in that reference page except this stuck out ;



No. We are saying it is as good as the .38 Special which has served us for a long time.
It has severe limitations which we are not willing to accept. It is woefully inadequate
for shooting at people in cars, for example, and over half of our shootings involve
vehicles. It is a marginally adequate wounding agent. We have had a number of 9mm
shootings over the past couple of years, and if you define a good shooting as one in
which the subject stops whatever he was doing when he gets shot, we have yet to have a
good one, and we are hitting our adversaries multiple times. We have shot half a dozen
dogs in the past year and have not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant
veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round. It is just nowhere
near as effective as the 10mm and .45 offerings, and the disparity between it and the
larger calibers has remained a constant throughout all the testing we have done over the
past two years.






The references to vehicle shooting from a bureau stand point. Just how many agent involved shootings does the bureau go thru that involves vehicles when compared to a patrol officer or deputy? I find it hard to believe the feds would be in alot of shootings to warrant this concern vrs a sheriff deputy. I would be surprise that the feds also test this or any round out on dogs and why would be next question, since a dog and a human is not in any shape of fashion comparable.

i also disagree with his comments about the 9mm and 357magnum and their performance. Like posted in another ongoing thread, some of the biggest PDs ( chi/nyc for example ) are using their 9mms with good results and are in quick immediate need to changing them out ;) or maybe they didn't get the news reports that their gun/caliber sections is a bad choice.

[agtman]

Noway:

Regarding the comment about shooting dogs - he's not talking about "testing" their cartridge selections by shooting dogs. He's referring to incidents like high-risk warrant service where some wanted fugitive or felon is holed up in a structure with attack dogs (like pitbulls) running loose on the property. When the dog charges one of the agents executing a search or arrest warrant, or who is in hot pursuit of a fleeing suspect, they shoot them.

And, by the way, it's the same for our local cops here too. Their 9mms were doing a p*ss-poor job of stopping pitbulls, Rotts and other drug-dealer type guard dogs on warrant service (or whenever encountered). About 3 years ago the cops here switched over to .40S&W Sigs. I'm told they've had nothing but one-shot stops (OSS) on attack dogs since the switch (not claiming this is in any way related to OSS on human BGs, just so we're clear).

[MakeMineA10mm]

noway,
I bet the FBI goes through more vehicle-involved shootings than any Sheriff's Dept. in the US in a year. They're a federal agency, with a LOT of agents, and just have more exposure...

The data related there seemed to be from reports of actual field shootings, not tests...




I find this information extremely interesting. I'm not saying I know any better, but there is always two sides to any story. This retired FBI Agent obviously has an axe to grind with the people who killed the 1076 (and who replaced him and his former boss, whom he obviously has an affinity for, since they wrote a book together after retiring...), so some of the opinion expressed and even some of the information expressed as factual data is in question in my mind, both due to the axe to grind and to a finincial motive regarding the book.

It's probably safe to say we will never know 100% of the truth of what happened.

It's possible a LOT of what is said at that link is true, but the skeptic in me wants to hear the other side, see some reports and internal data, and interview all parties with some probing questions. Even then, I think I'd only have a better idea, and not really know 100% of the dynamics of what happened...

[Dave Williams]

Thanks for the good read.

Definitely going to pick up their book.

Dave Williams