Mosin or Mauser??? (Accuracy, ect.)

[dunlaf05]

Well Which one is best? I'm looking for a bolt action rifle (Mil-surp) that is cheap to shoot and will double as a good hunting/range rifle.

I'd just want the best bang for the buck in accuracy and reliability. I'd like to shoot these accurately out to atleast 200 yards.

I'd also prefer to have a rifle that served in WWII, as I'm a history nut.

Thanks in advance for the help!!!

[jack19512]

I have four Mosins and two Mauser's. The two Mauser's, a K98 and a Yugo 24/47 have been much more accurate than any of my Mosins. I am buying me another Yugo 24/47 tomorrow.

I am thinking about keeping one of my Mosins and selling the rest. I may be wrong but it seems to me that the 8mm surplus ammo is much better quality than the 7.62X54 surplus ammo is.

[jack19512]

Here is a pic of what my K98 will do with my reloads I have worked up so far. Shot from 100 yards.

[jack19512]

Here is what my K98 will do with the Yugoslavian 70's surplus ammo. Shot from 100 yards.

[charlisity]

Those groups make me feel for the GIs on the receiving end. Wow. I never realized those rifles were capable of that type of performance. Is your rifle accurized somehow?

[jack19512]

No, they haven't been accurized. I purchased two of the K98's from Centerfire Systems here in Ky. I kept one and gave the other to my oldest son. His shoots just as good as mine does.

Had I known they would shoot this good I would have bought several before they sold out of them. I paid $150.00 each for them.

I recently purchased a Yugo 24/47 from AIM and it shoots real good to. I like it so much I am buying another 24/47 from Centerfire Systems tomorrow.

[wonderwolf]

I really like all my mauser guns, all half dozen of them BUT If you really want to get some bang for your buck go with the mosin nagants, They are a good solid rifle, around here I can get a like new rifle and 1000 rounds for $100 and I can hit my 12" gong out at 300 yards just about every time with the one my friend has,( i dont own a mosin) A mauser is a great rifle however its one that might have a "hidden" value and you might not want to use it for hunting or bushwork or whatever, Truth be told I really want a mosin but its another caliber and I'm already feeding about 25 or so seperate calibers.

[jack19512]

wonderwolf

Just curious, where at and what kind of rifle and 1000 rounds of ammo can you get for $100.00? I am shopping in the wrong place! :shocked:

[wonderwolf]

The milsurp dealers in my area usually have a bunch of short mosin nagant carbines and 1000 rounds ammo for $100. I have kept myself from getting one because its a new caliber. although If I see a nice one this weekend I may indulge.

[RMTactical]

I like the Mausers a lot better. More accurate.

[dunlaf05]

WOW....those are amazing groups for a rifle that was a battle rifle in the 1940's! Any got any group pics from a mosin? GRR....I would just buy both of them if I could afford it! Unfortunantly tuition and training must come before toys. :upeyes:

Well I guess I'll just shop around until I find the best deal...I'm leaning more towards the Mauser (but I want a WWII German K98).

Anybody know of anywhere that's got any in excellent to Very good quality for cheap?

[MrMurphy]

I've shot a WW1 Mauser Geweher 98 kb (not a Kar.98k) out to nearly a thousand yards, and a Lee-Enfield No4. Mk1 that far with solid hits. Man-sized hits at 600 were easy and 300-under were simple. Actual group size unknown (we weren't shooting for that) but any rifle made pre-50s for military use can easily hit out to 400+.

I've shot Mosin's a closer range for groups and even offhand, the 91/30 and M1891 were very accurate.

[jack19512]

Posted by dunlaf05

"Any got any group pics from a mosin?"





I could but I don't think it would be fair. I wouldn't want to mis-lead anyone into thinking some of the Mosin's aren't accurate. I have two 91/30's. one M44, and one M38. None of which have been very accurate with the military surplus ammo.

Now, having said that I recently got into reloading and so far I have only got around to working up a load for my scoped M38 that up until now wasn't very accurate at all.

Here is a pic of my last two reloads that I shot from my M38. Pay attention to group #1.

I have to say when it comes to my Mosin's, my K31's, and my Mauser's, the Mauser's have been the most accurate when using military surplus ammo. Followed by the K31's and then the Mosin's.

When it comes to handloading only time will tell. But, had I known what I know now I probably would have just stuck with the Mauser's.

[jack19512]

Posted by wonderwolf

"The milsurp dealers in my area usually have a bunch of short mosin nagant carbines and 1000 rounds ammo for $100."




I assume you are referring to the M44 and the M38. I would suspect they are selling the M44 and ammo for $100.00 as the M38 usually sells for more than the M44.

I have seen a pretty good looking M44 at a gun show for $50.00 one time but I already had one and didn't want another.

If you can get a M38 and 1000 rounds of ammo for $100.00 I would think that would be a pretty good buy. I personally like the M38 better than the M44.

[Rigormootis]

I own both as well as a slew of Enfields, K31s, and such...and I have yet to fire a sub $600 mil-surp bolt-gun that has been more accurate than my Finn M39. So, there are accurate MNs out there...

[fowler]

With all surplus it depends on the barrel. I have had Russian and Finn 91,s shoot sub 2" 100 yds. groups. Check the bore and crown for errosion and counter boring. I take a pulled bullet and insert it in the muzzle to check for wear. A real good bore it should not go more than 1/4 of the way.

[wonderwolf]

sorry about not being specific , The Surplus dealer I deal with at one point in time had both "new" M44 and "abused" 91's for sale both for $50 and another $50 for the ammo. I went to a gun show today and Picked up ANOTHER turkish Mauser for $50 I love them,. (my friend asked me how many that makes now, and I'm still not sure)

[jack19512]

Posted by Rigormootis

"I own both as well as a slew of Enfields, K31s, and such...and I have yet to fire a sub $600 mil-surp bolt-gun that has been more accurate than my Finn M39. So, there are accurate MNs out there..."




I know the Finn M39 is well known for their accuracy. Do you have a pic of your groups from a distance of 100 yards?

If you would I would like for you to compare your groups from your M39 to my groups from my K98. One group was shot by me and the other by my son-in-law.

Both of the groups I have previously posted from my K98 were fired from the hood of my pickup.

[Rick O'Shay]

For sheer accuracy with a Mosin, I recommend the 91/59. I bought one that was new from refurb, still in the cosmo. Cut the X at 50 yards with the first shot. An amazing little rifle. I normally shoot at 50 yards, so don't have any reports at 100 yards. Old eyes, you know.

One more bit of information:
I have an 8mm M48A Yugo Mauser, and it kicks like a 12-gauge shooting slugs! It also shoots about 7" high at 50 yards, with the lowest sight setting. SO, if recoil and short-range accuracy are a consideration, go for Mosin 39 or 59, with Finn markings if possible. If recoil and short-range accuracy aren't a consideration, then the Mauser is probably as good or better. Right now, I'm not convinced that a Mauser could out-shoot my 91/59 Mosin.
I have never seen a 91/30 that was very accurate, although there might be some out there.

[paccw]

Yugo 24/47 for $119.00

Hands down the best,I myself also called AIM for another one.

Best bore of any gun I have bought for $119.00.
The straight bolt is not a problem at all.

[paccw]

Originally posted by jack19512
Here is a pic of what my K98 will do with my reloads I have worked up so far. Shot from 100 yards.

You must have had the rifle in some kind of stand.
I wasn't doing that well free hand.But all my shots free hand would fit under a paint can lid no problem,at 100 yards.

[Rigormootis]

I don't keep targets as it seems silly to me. My M39's shoot as well as I can at 100 yds with iron sights - which is about 2MOA on a good day. I shoot 5 shot groups. A better shooter with better eyes might improve this....I don't know. SUpposedly the Finns didn't let any M39 "pass" unless they were capable of 1.5 MOA.

[jack19512]

Posted by paccw

"You must have had the rifle in some kind of stand."





Both the groups were shot from the hood of my truck using a bi-pod. I shot my reloads and let my son-in-law shoot the Yugoslavian 70's surplus ammo.

[jack19512]

Posted by paccw

"I wasn't doing that well free hand.But all my shots free hand would fit under a paint can lid no problem,at 100 yards."





What size paint can? I'll admit, offhand I probably couldn't hit my truck at 100 yards. But I can do pretty good from just about any kind of rest.

[charlisity]

Originally posted by paccw
I myself also called AIM for another one.

Who is AIM? I'm getting more and more interested in these so I might call too.

I've been doing some asking around and the two friends that have owned them had good things to tell me. I've never thought about owning one before but at that price and performance, I'm starting to reconsider.

Thanks for sharing.:beer:

[jack19512]

Posted by Rigormootis

"I don't keep targets as it seems silly to me."




Why is it silly? I shoot three 8mm Mauser's, two K31's, one 30-06, four Mosins, one AR-.223, one 9mm carbine, one AK, one NEF .223 Ultra Varmint, two SKS's and I think there are more, I just can't remember right now. And that doesn't include all of my rimfires, my 22LR's, 22 Mag's, and my 17 HMR's.

I have to keep at least one target for each so I can refresh my memory what kind of accuracy I should expect from each. Maybe I just have a poor memory. Not to mention if a fellow Glock Talk member wishes to see a target of mine from a particular rifle I can show them. :)

[jack19512]

Posted by charlisity

"Who is AIM?"








http://www.aimsurplus.com/ (http://http://www.aimsurplus.com/)

[charlisity]

Originally posted by jack19512
Not to mention if a fellow Glock Talk member wishes to see a target of mine from a particular rifle I can show them. :)

And we thank you for it.:beer:

Just checked AIM and they seem to be out. Lots of Mosins though.

[jack19512]

Posted by Rigormootis

"I shoot 5 shot groups."




I'll be honest with you, now that is something I have never understood. I shoot 3 shot groups and have actually shot 2 shot groups before. Mainly to keep barrel heat up to a minimum.

All of my rifles are mainly for hunting and I have never felt that any of the game I have shot with the first shot was going to need another or was going to stand there and let me shoot it 4 more times. :)

[Rigormootis]

Originally posted by jack19512
Posted by Rigormootis

"I shoot 5 shot groups."

I'll be honest with you, now that is something I have never understood. I shoot 3 shot groups and have actually shot 2 shot groups before. Mainly to keep barrel heat up to a minimum.

All of my rifles are mainly for hunting and I have never felt that any of the game I have shot with the first shot was going to need another or was going to stand there and let me shoot it 4 more times. :)


To be perfectly honest, I'm really not sure why I am letting myself get baited into this, but here goes:

3 round groups are OK, and sure that’s what I always did in the 10 years I spent in the Marine Corps. But, that said, when it comes to really wringing out both my shooting technique and my rifles, I just don't feel that unless I shoot & record my 5-round groups (with plenty of time taken between shots – given the barrel weight on the rifle in question) I have created enough of a "group" worth measuring. Yes, those 4th and 5th round fliers do tend to piss me off, but it also keeps me & my rig honest. Do you see what I mean? 1 & 2 shoots might be "luck"...maybe lady luck will give you a 3rd, but not likely strings of back-to-back 5 round groups That said, repeated strings of 3 round groups is perfectly respectable too, but all-else-equal, 3rd groups are likely to be smaller than 5 rounds groups as every shot carrier with it the opportunity to open things up. Of course, this is more to keep the shooter "honest" than the rifle - assuming you keep he barrel cool too. FWIW, I doo keep records of overall group size for the rifle I shoot for such purposes. That way I can keep a running average and inform myself about changes in my shooting...I guess I just still do think it "silly" to keep a file of spent targets around.

As for posting pictures of groups...

I know how my rifles and I shoot...and "we" shoot regularly. I don't take my targets home from the range except for very special circumstances. To each his own – right? I guess have seen plenty of folks take targets home after shooting their rifles at 25 yard indoor ranges and I know of one forum-mate that posts here from time to time that claimed were his "100 yard groups" that were the very same groups I witnessed him shoot 2 night earlier in this manner. My point is that simply showing a picture of 3-5 holes in a target and saying it was done at 100 yards doesn't seem to me to be any more informative than me or anyone else reporting our groups. Sure, you have a picture, but what does that really “prove”? Please understand I am not saying your groups are legit at all, I am just saying I don't see the "real" value in posting pictures of paper targets when who knows the actual conditions they were fired at…not does that mean that anyone viewing them from his/her armchair commando perch could actually reproduce them with the very same rifle since the rifleman’s skill is also a factor in making said groups.

Also, it seems you want me to go and take pictures of my groups so we can compare said targets with yours...again, to what end I don't know. In my mind, doing so would not separate what differences (if any) were due to our respective abilities, or our rifles. They are clearly intertwined and unless you and I swap hardware, we’ll just never know. So, as I have made clear by now, I just don't see the point in making the “silly” comparison. (Sorry – I guess - if this word “silly” got under your skin...but remember I said I (me, and me alone) thought it such - no harm no foul I would hope).

Ok...this post of mine is already much longer than I intended, so let me wrap this up.

IMHO, ANY 50-100+ year old surplused military rifle & rifleman that shoots CONSISTENT and HONEST sub-4" groups at 100 yards with issued iron sights is doing just fine. Rifles & shooters of this nature that manage to shoot under 2" at 100 yards CONSISTENTLY with standard military iron sights are something special...and the shooter has both GREAT eyes and technique. In my experience, there are VERY FEW rifles/shooters out there that can actually do this anyway…so worrying about if one’s rifle is up to this is moot if the shooter won’t put the time and practice into making him/herself up to snuff.

Thus, if you and your son shoot that well with your Mauser, than my hat is off to you both. My Finn 39s, 1 of my K31s, my Garand and I are all very good & reliable shooters too.


Hopefully this settles things a bit…..and it’s “past my bedtime”.



Final Note:

I'll probably re-read this "little" post in the morning and regret some of its "tone" or text...but I tired and off to bed. Please accept my apologies in advance for said "tone" if I have been too gruff or cranky.

:beer:

[jack19512]

I've taken nothing personally, it's all in good fun and a chance to learn from others. I have heard so much about the Finn M39's I would really just like to see what they are capable of in the hands of a competent shooter.

When it comes to rifles and shooting I know there are just too many variables involved for any one target to represent the whole picture. When I post a pic of one of my targets I hope everyone doesn't expect the exact same outcome from their shoot.

I know Some will be better than mine and some will be worse. I just hope everyone else knows this also. Not putting my son down or anything but he can't shoot for crap. He did do really well with the K98 though. He likes to shoot but just doesn't have that much experience.

I see we have one thing in common, part of our training came from the same place. 2/4 Marines 1969-1971 :)

[Rigormootis]

Semper Fi Mac!
Well, yeah, I was pretty beat when I wrote all that. The next time I take the Finn out, I'll try to bring back some "100 yard paper" for yah.

:beer:

[jack19512]

Thanks, I would appreciate it. Don't worry I will look at the pic with an open mind. I know it may not be your best or conditions may not be good etc...etc...

I just use my targets as a rough example, just something to use as a comparison not as a guideline. I enjoy looking at others targets. It doesn't matter to me whether it is a tight group or not so tight group as long as they enjoy sharing.

[Rick O'Shay]

Scientifically (I'm an old research scientist)and statistically, a minimum data set is 20 points. I'm sure this does not apply to the firing range, though. Of course, I never shoot 20 rounds at one target with the same rifle. But I do generally shoot one magazine full. Therefore, my bolt action rifles usually are 5-round groups, but my M1 carbine and SKS targets generally have 10 shots. And for some @#$% reason, there's always ONE flyer!

My thinking is that 5 rounds will include variables such as heating up the barrel and also barrel resonance factors, plus shooter-related factors. It is a better (more thorough) evaluation of ammunition as well.

[Rigormootis]

:) Yeah, I teach research methods too. I started in microbiology and ended up in social psychology. I'm a little "harder science" than most of my fellows.

:beer:

[paccw]

AIM has 24/47's back in stock.

Just got my 2nd one today.

[wonderwolf]

how many shots you put into your target might depend on the gun and your level of marksmanship , I know some people who do the 3 shots and some who do 5 or 10 or even 20, Personally I shoot alot of compitition so I know where the bullet is gonna go if I do my part (plus that one flyer), Calling your shots is a key part in learning how to be a good/great marksman. I will shoot a 3 shot group and after every shot I will have a copy of the target sitting beside me and I will place that spent case on the exact spot where I think that shot went after three shots I look at the target either through a scope or by physicaly examining the target. shooting more shots might just wear you out, heat up your gun and cause you maybe to rush your shots. also, I know windage adjustments are not a major thing for milsurp guns that dont have MOA sights but try to watch the wind, even at 100 yards it WILL drift your shot, and make EVERY shot as if it was a THE shot, you know, the one shot match,the one shot you get to win the world cup, the one shot you get at that trophy elephant before he turns on you and makes you into jelly, that one shot you get before you hear the sigh of the lion right before he charges. that kind of thing,

And I have the little 3" & 1" white spotters we use for highpower and mini palma (.22lr shot prone with a sling at 200 yards, its fun esp on a calm day) that started out life new before I had came to the line, what my club does is if you shot the big 3" spotter on slow fire then they will give you a 1" spotter if you shoot that one they give you a golf tee and at 200 & 300 yards thats a small peice of wood, I have kept my 3" spotter that has 13 hits in it before the guy was told to give me a 1" spotter and I have my 1" spotter that has 4 hits in it 3 in the white , the 4th hit the spindal and it blew up (this was with .22lr at 200 yards prone and sling with), they gave me a golf tee and I blew 3 of those up before the wind shifted and I did not catch it. Needless to say knowing your rifle and how it prints under what conditions is important. Light,wind, gun being dirty or spanking clean, gun that is broken in with 5,000 rounds through it or a gun that has only had 50 rounds through it, it all makes a difference. Find out what works for you and stick to it with a open mind for other ideas as well,

also try shooting and not lining up your sights exactly correct, you will be amazed at what a "hair off" on your sights looks like on paper. ok I'll stop talking now, I'm sure nothing I have said has anything to do with the topic but oh well.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

Originally posted by jack19512
Posted by charlisity

"Who is AIM?"








http://www.aimsurplus.com/ (http://http://www.aimsurplus.com/)

I always thought that AIM stood for American Indian Movement. :)

I'd be thinking long term ammo availability, which would probably give the edge to the 8mm k 98.

Also, unless I'm wrong, the MN lacks a safety, which bugs me on a rifle.

For the record though, I've alway found Mausers to shoot about 8 inches high at 100 yards. I'm told this is a deliberate design, since they were looking to hit COM on human torso out to X meters.

Are you guys having problems getting your Mausers to shootdead on at 100 yards?

[Rigormootis]

Taller front sights can be had for both (helps with the shooting high part) - check out http://www.tngunparts.com/. Manual safeties are a nice thing, but the real safety is the shooter (though, I know what you mean - FWIW, you can let the MN's bolt "down" on a chambered round, but I woudn't want to drop said rifle in this condition). The continued production and use of 7.62x54r as a machine gun round actually bodes well for it to be available in surplus longer than many other "old" calibers. Perhaps in the very far-off future it will only be on links, but I don't think we'll see the loss of 7.62x54r milsurp anytime soon (this later goes for *mm Mauser too). This is one of the things that attracted me to these particular mil-surps. Both can be had so cheaply now, one can easily stock-up on more than you or your barrel can handle - especially if you own several. When "good surplus" can still be had a $70-80/1000rds or so, a few hundred dollars goes a LONG way with either caliber...

[jack19512]

Posted by Squaw Man Wolfer

"Also, unless I'm wrong, the MN lacks a safety, which bugs me on a rifle."





You're wrong, the Mosin's do have a saftey. Not liked by a lot of people but they do have one.

[jack19512]

Posted by Squaw Man Wolfer

"Are you guys having problems getting your Mausers to shootdead on at 100 yards?"






My K98 is a scope only rifle but the Yugoslavian 24/47 I purchased just recently shoots dead on at 70 yards. Haven't shot it at 100 yards yet.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

Originally posted by jack19512
Posted by Squaw Man Wolfer

"Also, unless I'm wrong, the MN lacks a safety, which bugs me on a rifle."





You're wrong, the Mosin's do have a saftey. Not liked by a lot of people but they do have one.

Did a bit of web search, and you are RIGHT! I'm wrong.

I guess that most folks just don't see an external lever, and jump to that conclusion. I've read that for YEARS!

Not sure if it is the BEST safety (in terms of ease of manipulation),

as your post implies.