Had some sorta Kaboom today with Double tap

[Reyn]

I have a new G20C thats about two weeks old. I bought some doubletap ammo for the first time last month. Prior to this the only ammo fired through my gun is 50rds of Blazer with no problems.I went to shoot the DTs for the first time this afternoon. I bought a box of 135gr and 165. I also have a 22lb and 20lb spring and rod i bought through DT. The first thing i tried was the 135gr. My first 3rds were 10inches low at 20yds. This blew my mind i couldnt believe it was off that much. On the fifth round i felt a burning sensation in my right hand and the magazine blew out the bottom alond with a different boom than normal. I just knew my gun was damaged. The magazine looked scorched and has a small chunk missing but the rest of the gun looked ok. My brother looked at it and said everything looked ok except the mag. I then took a new mag and tried the Blazer which worked fine. I then tried the 165gr. Now this round was hitting where it was supposed to not 10in low but after the 3rd round the gun would not feed the rounds.I switched back to blazer 200gr FMJs and had no problems feeding. Ive left a message with DT and am waiting for a reply. Im just pissed that everything that can go wrong always seems to follow me. Everybody else has shot 1,000s of rounds of this stuff with no problems and my blows on the fifth round. Im scared to death of those 135s. That 10in low still has me confused. Im just wondering if 135s blowing is why the 165s wont feed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/reyn61/100_1631.jpg

[Reyn]

I found the casing of the round that blew.There is a slight bulge and a hole blown through the side ofthe bulge at the bottom. The rest of the casing looks fine. No cracks down the side just that 1 hole. Also some of the Blazer isnt feeding. Its not that its jamming but the slide keeps locking back every 10rds or so. I was using 20lb wolf spring and switched back to the factory spring and the last 12rds i had left cycled fine. Is it possible the wolf spring would cause it to lock back? I'll post some pics of the casing when i get a chance.

[ILikeFtLbs]

Anything's possible. Did the gun fire out of battery?

Check the locking block to make sure it isn't damaged. Also, check the mag catch. If the mag blew out the bottom, I'd bet it's damaged and your mags aren't seating right.

[Reyn]

Originally posted by ILikeFtLbs
Anything's possible. Did the gun fire out of battery?

Check the locking block to make sure it isn't damaged. Also, check the mag catch. If the mag blew out the bottom, I'd bet it's damaged and your mags aren't seating right.

Locking block looks fine. The mags click in and appear to seat fine. Ive compared it to my other Glocks with the slide off and it seems to fit just like those. My brother is a Glock armor so im gonna let him strip it down and check it. I also have an Aro-? slide release added. Some people have a problem with their thumbs tapping these and locking the slide but i made sure my thumbs were clear. Im gonna go back to factory everything and try again tommorrow.

[seanmc42]

One thing I would suggest is to set a couple of those 135gr next to some other known-good ammo and take a real good look.

I'm sure even McNett can make a mistake once in a while ;)
(No offense, Mike!)

...just to be safe.

[Reyn]

Well i found the problem with the slide locking. It was the Aro-tek slide release. I replaced it with a Glock extended release and shot 100rds without a problem. I just wonder what caused the case to blow. If its due to the lack of chamber support then its the gun and i cant use the stuff.I cant afford an aftermarket barrel right now. I really want to use this ammo but another issue was the accuracy. Im hoping it was just a bad batch. Anyone else had an issue with the accuracy?

[DavidinSA]

I'm also curious about this.
I have 1200rds ordered from DT and now I am a little nervous about the purchase.

Were you rapid firing when you had the KB?
Also, I am in the process of measuring chamber fit with various brass. The fit on my G20 chamber seems loose but could be normal.
Waiting for my new Storm Lake barrel for a comparison.

thanks for posting
David

[Reyn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidinSA
[B]I'm also curious about this.
I have 1200rds ordered from DT and now I am a little nervous about the purchase.

Were you rapid firing when you had the KB?
Also, I am in the process of measuring chamber fit with various brass. The fit on my G20 chamber seems loose but could be normal.
Waiting for my new Storm Lake barrel for a comparison.

thanks for posting


No i was squeezing off rounds at 20yds to see how they group. Mcnett left a message but we both keep getting each others voice mail. There is a lot of people who have shot thousands of rounds without any problems. I dont know why this happened on my first few rounds.Hopefully once i talk with Mike we can figure out what went wrong.

[1*45]

Your Brother will no doubt tell you this also too, The chambers in the Glock pistols are oversized to feed anything. That means that there is not much support on the bottom of the cartridge for support.
That does not mean your glocks are not safe. They are safe with normal factory spec ammo. They have a pressure curve to operate in.
With your barrel out of the G20, Take a loaded round and drop it in the barrel that you took out of your G20. look under the round as it sits in the barrel. All that brass that is exposed is not supported to handle what ever the pressur. If you are able to compare your blown round in the same barrel, you will see where it breached the level.
The 10 inches low is more than likely due to the velocity of the 135 grain round leaving your barrel earlier/faster than the normal weight rds (170-200) before your pistol recoils.

Bottom line is no two glocks are the same, your barrel could be on the border line of ramp demensions in regards to high pressure.
I amsorry for your "BOOM" and hope your flich will soon be cured.
McNett will work with you and remember that it could be any manufacturer, the potential is always there

Dont beat yourself up on this, Think positive and learn that mechanical things break.
Good luck to you and good shooting.

[1*45]

That smiley you are looking at in your pic is a sign of over pressure.
You need to read some of the re loading manuals so you can tell if a round is over pressure in your guns chamber.
When you purchase a companies new hot round I would try one factory round of new ammo in your pistol, to see how it handles the load. Most people read about how good a round is and load up. The rounds you are using are in the +P range i suspect and its just a caution that I would pass to all who strive to live on the edge. Its the same caution that ammo reloaders live with, testing to the limits, you need to use caution and look for signs of exceeding safe pressures.
A round that flings empty brass 30-40 feet away from the pistol would tell you something too, HOT.
My .02 worth.

[Masque]

Couple of things to clear up.

First off, sights are not set to compensate for recoil. The bullet's gone LONG before the recoil impulse even HINTS at affecting sight picture.

Second, to the person above who said DoubleTap ammunition is "in the +P range" - are you sure? Have you measured it? From what I know, DoubleTap loads their ammunition to a couple thousand PSI lower than SAAMI spec. Have you got something that contradicts this?

[squirreld]

wow, DT sure is getting alot of bad rap lately.

[Reyn]

Originally posted by squirreld
wow, DT sure is getting alot of bad rap lately.

I want everyone to know this thread is not attempt to knock DT ammo. Like i said thousands of rounds have been fired. Im just trying to get advice from people more experienced than me and this is one of the best places to hear from people who have 10mm's.

[DavidinSA]

A couple of points to think about:
1)I have only heard of a few KB's using DT loads.
2)DT loads are HOT.
3)The couple of KB's may have nothing to do with DT's process.
4)DT is trusting the Brass manufacturer
5)DT is trusting Glock's manufacturing
6)DT is trusting the powder manufacturer
7)DT is trusting the firearm owner for proper maintenance and operation of the firearm used.

You get my point.
It may be that some DT loads are just pushing the envelope too far on stock Glock barrels or there has been a change or quality control issue with one of DT's suppliers that is starting to show up.

Anyway, just some other things to think about before anybody says DT has a problem.

Thanks
David

[Reyn]

I went and recovered about 20rds of the 165gr casings. 2 had noticeable bulges and most had a SLIGHT bulge but you had to turn it to notice it. Im thinking its my barrel support.I also have some Texas arms ammo coming but now i wonder if i should chance it. Im thinking about getting a storm lake barrel. I assume it will work depite mine being a G20C. Can anyone tell me if a SLIGHT bulge is normal with hot loads and factory barrels?

[ILikeFtLbs]

Brass expands whenever you fire it, but there should be no bulge. That's a sign of excessive pressure.

[agtman]

If you get slight case bulging with different ammo in the same barrel, then this indicates (to me) an issue with the barrel's chamber not fully supporting the case in critical areas, rather than an issue with the ammo being "too hot," whatever that means. :upeyes:

DT's 10mm ammo is within SAAMI specs. I'm another satisfied DT user who's put several thousand problem-free 10mm rounds through various pistols and their factory barrels, including my G20 and G29.

If I were you, I'd shoot some of Texas Ammo's 10mm loads thru your G20C and see if you detect similar case bulging. If you do, then it may be a chamber problem, not an ammo problem.

But as DavidinSA pointed out, it could just as well have been a brass problem, or a combination (Federal had a REAL BIG brass splitting problem with some 9mm and .40 ammo, IIRC). Defective brass - if that's determined to be the cause - is a supplier problem for the ammo-maker, which they're still going to want corrected right now.

Obviously, "kabooms" can and do happen with Glocks. The .40S&W Glocks lead the league here, though, in fairness, a lot of those KABOOMS are caused by overly-ambitious reloaders trying to hotrod their 40 loads into 10mm territory. Still, there are several variables to consider, and bad brass and lack of sufficient chamber support are two that come to mind.

Contact McNett directly via phone or by PM on this board so he can get to the bottom of problem and assist you, as the issue is one I'd want resolved as well.

:cool:

[mmncw]

Before I replaced my g20 glock barrel with a kkm, everything except blazer ammo came out bulged / smileyed: fed 180hs, rem 180fmj, hdy 180xtp. Several of the hdy 180xtp cases even split lengthwise. Went to the kkm - and at least 5k rounds later - no problems.

[blaster668]

This is exactly what happened with my g-29 and 180gr GD DT's. But at least my locking block was damaged as well. I sent the gun into glock to be completely inspected. Mike said he'd take care of everything, I shipped the remaining ammo back to him to test it. I am thinking it was either over-loaded or bad brass.

[Reyn]

More bad news. I bought a box of factory Win. silvertips and fired 10rds with no notice of problems until i just found one of the casings. Its split down the side but i never felt anything when firing. Im gonna post a pick as soon as it uploads. Heres is what my barrel looks like with a doubletap rd in it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/reyn61/100_1652.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/reyn61/100_1650.jpg

2nd from left is the Win sivertip case. Others are Blazer and 1 DT.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/reyn61/100_1647.jpg

[bakjr]

All my Winchester Silver Tips are nickel cased.

The one that is split is brass???

[Reyn]

Originally posted by bakjr
All my Winchester Silver Tips are nickel cased.

The one that is split is brass???

Really? This was the only box on the shelf at the store. Isnt the box supposed to be white? Mine is gray. Double checked all mine are brass. Reads personal protection 175gr silvertip hollowpoint.20rds

[bakjr]

My bad....

Strange... I've got 2 of the silver boxes left and one is nickel and one is brass. The 2 boxes I shot last month were both nickel. I never looked at the other boxes until just now. My white box is brass as well.

[bakjr]

All the silver boxed Winchester Silver tips that are nickel came from my local dealer. I wonder if it was old stock or new stock?


The silver box that is brass came from a gun show and the white box, which is pretty old, came with my 1066 along with about 350 rounds of various brands of 10mm.

[kernal_panic]

Originally posted by agtman
If you get slight case bulging with different ammo in the same barrel, then this indicates (to me) an issue with the barrel's chamber not fully supporting the case in critical areas, rather than an issue with the ammo being "too hot," whatever that means. :upeyes:

DT's 10mm ammo is within SAAMI specs. I'm another satisfied DT user who's put several thousand problem-free 10mm rounds through various pistols and their factory barrels, including my G20 and G29.

If I were you, I'd shoot some of Texas Ammo's 10mm loads thru your G20C and see if you detect similar case bulging. If you do, then it may be a chamber problem, not an ammo problem.

But as DavidinSA pointed out, it could just as well have been a brass problem, or a combination (Federal had a REAL BIG brass splitting problem with some 9mm and .40 ammo, IIRC). Defective brass - if that's determined to be the cause - is a supplier problem for the ammo-maker, which they're still going to want corrected right now.

Obviously, "kabooms" can and do happen with Glocks. The .40S&W Glocks lead the league here, though, in fairness, a lot of those KABOOMS are caused by overly-ambitious reloaders trying to hotrod their 40 loads into 10mm territory. Still, there are several variables to consider, and bad brass and lack of sufficient chamber support are two that come to mind.

Contact McNett directly vis phone or by PM on this board so he can get to the bottom of problem and assist you, as the issue is one I'd want resolved as well.

:cool:

he's right. the other ammo you tried, the blasers, aren't as powerfull as the DT loads. you might have a defective chamber and not realize it.

it is odd that this is the 3rd DT kaboom in the last month.

alsoi the stock glock barrel is alot looser in in the chamber than aftermarket barrels. I've got a fac barrel thats definatly tighter than stock.

[Crazy Ed]

OK I had to throw this in again ...

http://www.rodgersweb.net/ccix2.jpg

These are the spent CCI Blazer cases that came with my new G20. What story do they tell? I have never owned any type of handgun that did this to the casing. I'm thinking I want a KKM barrel BEFORE I take this one to the range. Observations? Comments? Do these cases even look like they were new before being fired?

Thanks in advance for your replies and I'm not trying to hijack this thread. I posted this separately before and only received one reply. Sorry. I've got the itch real bad to go blow the hell out of something with this cannon ... I want to try DT ammo ... I think I just need the advice of the experienced folks who have been through this stuff before.

Thanks again,

Ed

[Reyn]

Crazy Ed, if it makes a difference those look just like the Blazer cases that came with my Glock 20.All my spent rounds have resembled this also. I assume thats normal otherwise someone at Glock isnt paying attention.

[Crazy Ed]

Makes ya wonder though. I just hate to find out things the hard way, especially when it comes to ammo and explosives. I'd love to go pump some DT and Hornady XTP just to see what happens ... but, then again, I don't want to screw up my confidence in Glock if only a mere aftermarket barrel change will stop the case bulges. I wonder if anyone from Glock is reading these posts? Seems like a lot of people are going with aftermarket barrels. So if they don't affect reliability, why doesn't Glock just increase their chamber support a little?

I'm going to wait until my KKM comes in. I think it's a sorry way to do business .. "Hey, buy our gun but don't shoot Double Tap ammo until you replace the stock barrel." :freak: The darn thing should be able to handle any spec ammo right out of the box.

Ed

[Crazy Ed]

Originally posted by Reyn 61
Crazy Ed, if it makes a difference those look just like the Blazer cases that came with my Glock 20.All my spent rounds have resembled this also. I assume thats normal otherwise someone at Glock isnt paying attention.

Have you been using a stock barrel and if so, what make/load ammo are you using? Are all the cases bulging?

Ed


**** Sorry, I forgot you're the one who originated this thread.

[Reyn]

Yes,stock barrel. So far ive tried Blazer 200gr FMJs, 175gr.Win Silvertips, DT 135gr. GTs and the 165gr DT GDs.The case failure i got was with my 3rd round of the 135s. I shot the 165s and had several smileys on those. What went wrong i can only assume at this point was a lack of chamber support.Maybe some chambers arent the same just ever so slightly off enough to cause this. I agree that if a load is within pressure specs then you shouldnt have this problem. Ive ordered some more ammo from Texas ammo an im gonna give it a try. Im probably gonna order a Storm Lake barrel and try the DTs again. If anything i hope it will help the accuracy.Some of the DTs were groupng ok but were 5in low on the point of aim at just under 15yds. I dont know if this was due to the chamber deal or not. BTW,the DTs were from Feb and March of this year. Dont have the box in front of me now so i dont know the lot #. All my cases have looked like the one in your picture with the exception of the Double taps.

[Crazy Ed]

Thanks for that info. I guess what bugs me the most is the fact that my G20 cost at least $200 more than any of the handguns I currently own, and none of the others have any problems even close to this chamber support business. Maybe Glock should just sell guns without barrels for a cheaper price or at least give the option of upgrading to an aftermarket barrel at the time of purchase for minimal cost minus the price of the stock barrel.

This subject is giving me a headache. They say they have a loose chamber so it can feed anything ... well I don't want it to feed anything, just 10mm spec ammo.

Ed :soap:

[DavidinSA]

My 2 cents.

Just looked at my cases that came with the G20 collected date of Feb06.
Looks the same as those pictured.
I have put over 500rds of various ammo including Corbon, Fed Personal Defense, Hornady, Blazer, and American Eagle.
All of them look the same with the bulge.

Some perspective.
I have many, many 1000's of rds of Hot loads through my G19 and G27.
Never had a blowout with either the 9mm or the .40 caliber.
I am making a big assumption that the chamber design is the same as the G20.
Think of all the millions of rds that Glocks have fired including the overpressured reloads through factory Glock barrels.
If there was a real problem as a whole, Glock would have corrected it.
Now, like I said in my previous post, there are a number of places that an issue can occur.
I have worked in Research, inparticularly reverse engineering, structural testing, and prototype development for over 16 years. One thing that I have found is it was not uncommon for a manufacturer to make changes in production techniques to save a penny or obtain material from a different supplier with the same "specifications" and the resulting change causing a quality issue (failures) down the line. One time we were having failures with some telecom frames and tracked the "new" failures to a new welder that was starting his weld from the opposite direction than the previous welder. (which should not have been an issue but it just happened that at this particular stress point, it did make a difference.)
Anyway, before anyone starts pointing fingers at any one step, we need to do more investigation.


Just my 2 cents.

Thanks
David

[RayRevolver]

Someone on here mentioned to try to put the cases back into the chamber to see if it fired out of battery or not.

When I tried this the DT ammo would not go into the chamber very far, and I didn't want to cram it in there. The same day I also shot Rem UMC and it went all the way in with a little nudge. The UMC had some minor bulging (less than Crazy Eds), but I only recovered 4 cases of UMC.

My chamber seems to be very loose in general. Either the DT or UMC seem to fit very loosely. Maybe too loosely? It is a 2nd Gen from April 1991 and I need to send it in for the upgrade.

Should I let them know its bulging DT ammo, or will they consider DT reloads and void the warranty?

For the time being I won't shoot my DT (the 135gr DTs are next on my list). I do have a Federal Barrel incoming and will probably get a 6" Storm Lake.

[kernal_panic]

comparing the chambers of my fac barrel to my stock barrel and too my cz-75 sa (very reliable pistol) it seems to me glock went overboard on the loose tolerances of the chamber. when i went to reload my brass that had been fired from the stock barrel resizing took alot more effort than the brass fired from the fac barrel.

it might be with the warmer 10 loads the ones that are closer to true 10 mm power rather than long 40s, are stretching the brass in the stock barrels too much.

[nvrquit]

There are ways to eliminate a G20 stock barrel for excessive chamber dimensions.

One, have a skilled experienced machinist measure the chamber dimensions of a suspect chamber. Then compare these measurements to the SAAMI min/max established dimensions for which caliber the barrel is chambered.

Two, have the chamber cast using an established standard methodology and materials. Then compare the chamber casting to the established SAAMI standards for the case dimensions of the cartridge for which the barrel was chambered.

Using these two methods should eliminate, with a reasonable degree of certainty, the question of the chamber dimensions in a suspect chamber. If the chamber is found to be within acceptable SAAMI standards for the given case dimensions of the cartridge in question, then other factors should be pursued.

[DavidinSA]

Where can you get SAAMI specs without having to join?

Thanks
David

[ILikeFtLbs]

I've read other information that Glock chambers are tighter than Colt and S&W (Although that has nothing to do with case support).
Link - look at "Glock Quirks" (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10mmtips.htm#glocks)
I have verified this info on my 3rd gen. 10mm and .45 Glocks v. 1911s. The glock chamber was definitely tighter.

So far, I have fired Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Silvertips, and my own handloads out of a stock harrel. No bulges or smiley faces. The only case cracks occasionally occur on multi-reloads.

[ppro]

Lots of questions and a few answers come to mind when this topic comes up.

Glock chamber dimensions are generous to enhance feeding reliability under any and all conditions....period. Good bad or otherwise, the intent is to insure that the weapon will feed and the presumption is, that the more generous chamber dimension contributes to the feeding characteristics of the weapon. I say presumption because I had no hand in the design of the firearms nominal chamber dimensions. In general, the tighter the chamber tolerance, the greater the chance for feeding problems under any and all conditions (mud, dirt rain ice, snow etc. etc.). Again, the Glock was designed to function/operate under normal and extreme adverse conditions.

If your a law enforcement officer, or if you absolutely demand that your weapon MUST function when called upon to do so, then the matter of the chamber dimensions may be secondary to other considerations, namely, the highest probability of function.

Few of us demand that our weapons WILL function and operate properly, when drug through the mud, dirt and other extremely adverse conditions for example, since we are spending more range time than anything else. While we probably would like to believe that or G 20's will function just as well as the factory barreled Glock (when we put the custom tighter chambered barrels in the weapon) under those same adverse conditions, it is a gamble...pure and simple.

If and when I go afield and I EXPECT to be in really dusty dirty conditions, possibly hunting in freezing rain and snow or in general in more extreme conditions...you will only see my G 20's fitted with the factory barrels. On the other hand, if I were hunting in good conditions, short stints to the site and possibly mainly even road hunting where a completely clean weapon is the norm, OR I don't expect to encounter things with teeth that bite back, then my tighter chambered barrels are always just fine. This is not to say there is anything wrong with the tight chambered replacement barrels, just that I factor in the reliability under adverse conditions and whether I think I absolutely need that large chamber potential margin of reliability or not. My Glock 29 is my serious personal defense weapon and as such, it will probably keep it's factory barrel for now. When I have completely rung the G 29 out with a quality aftermarket barrel and IF it performs flawlessly after consuming copious quantities of ammunition that I intend to carry in it, then I will stay with the tighter chambered barrel (but I also will not be dragging my G 29 through the mud either). To qualify this, I have tight chambered Glock G 20's that have been totally reliable with tighter chambered high quality after market barrels, and I wouldn't hesitate to stake my life on them in general use.

Are the Glock 20's prone to occasional cartridge failure?

Probably no more or less than most other semi auto high pressure cartridge makes/models. I say this because blowups with the Glock 20 (from what I can find) are very rare. However, there are fewer G 20's in service than most other models too.

Are there models of Glocks that I THINK might be more prone to a K.B. than some other semi auto makes/models?

Outwardly I would say possibly, but considering the numbers in the field and also the time Glock has had to refine chamber dimensions and all, I certainly couldn't say for sure, and it is pure speculation on my part, even having read all that I can find on the topic....I would leave it at possibly and nothing more.

Is it possible that some of the Glock barrels in various G 20's are not created equal...that is...are more likely to show pressure than another G 20 with its particular barrel?

ABSOLUTELY ! From all my experience this is a given.

So the prudent shooter will make note of the condition of their fired brass, no matter the firearm. If the brass looks overworked, seek a second opinion, test some other lots and brands of ammunition....if the brass still is not looking right, then you may choose to send the weapon back to the manufacturer with a complete explanation.

Were I to have a K.B., AND have brass showing more than usual amounts of smiley's or apparent brass stress, I surely would send the guns in with a complete explanation.

Paul

[wxl]

Glock stock barrels are more prone to bulge in the brass due to design and the less support. Reloaders know brass from a stock Glock barrel expand more and bulge is more common than not. Glock barrels do have less support on the brass than aftermarket barrels whether they are $90 or $200. That is how Mr Gaston specs them out. Also why his barrel rifling spec does not recommend lead bullets but many do use lead and feel they need to push the envelope. I do not risk lead bullets in my stock barrels.

However, stock barrels are generally safe with factory jacketed loads and brass are safe to reload but life expectancy is less due to more stressing. This is why many who reload prefer aftermarket barrels for their Glocks. I reload and have aftermarket barrels in most of my Glocks but I do not hesitate using my stock barrels particularly with my less than high end recipes or the very seldom purchased factory offerings. Because I do push some loads to near max for hunting, I prefer to keep the aftermarket barrels in those guns since I am not very organized in keeping all of my loads 100% catergorized.

I have the Glock 26, G30 (w/ KKM barrel, G32 sig stock plus Firedragon 40S&W barrel, G33 357sig plus KKM in 40S&W and KKM in 9mm, G20 w/ KKM stock length and 6" KKM hunting barrel. I reload for all and also shoot my 45acp and 10mm in my 1911s, Colt Delta and S&W 610.

Have not used DT but have always wanted to and will probably do so some day. The slight edge in velocity in DT has not been high enough draw yet as some of my loads are pretty close and do not have a strong enough urge for another 50 to 100 fps. Many of my loads generally are at least equal to factory loads and generally more. Most of my loads are closer to factory or just below for the enjoyment of shooting in large volumes. Some guys have to have that Hemi but I am content with a BIG V-8.

Reyn 61, hope you resolve your issues whether it is ammo or a little too loose barrel chamber. Shooting should be a fun sport also.

[ppro]

WXL

I quoted part of your post as noted below:

" Also why his barrel rifling spec does not recommend lead bullets"

I have had trouble finding offical Glock statements that lead bullets are not recommended so I was wondering if you could point me to the offical Glock information to that effect.

Not that it would surprise me, rather, I have been unable to find it. Can you help me out with the offical source for your information regarding Glock barrels and lead bullets ?


thanks

Paul

[wxl]

ppro,
No, I have not seen it in writing by Glock, Inc. Only reported frequently by others so it is only a recommendation? Boils down to how an individual feels whether there is merit to it.

Here is typical quote from www:Glockfac.com

"Can I shoot lead bullets in my Glock?
This has been debated on rec.guns and GlockTalk about 10,000 times. There are basically 2 schools of thought:

School #1: Don't Do It
Glock barrels use special polygonal rifling not found in most handguns. This rifling is one of the main reasons Glocks are extremely accurate guns. However, the same rifling can cause a high degree of leading when not using jacketed bullets. In other words some lead from the bullet sticks to the inside of the barrel when it is fired. Too much leading can quickly lead to high pressures which can cause the barrel and/or gun to break or even explode. Most people who weigh in on this subject fall into this category including Glock Inc.

School #2: Don't Worry About It
If you clean your barrel well and do it every time you shoot there will be no significant leading. Many, many people use lead bullets almost exclusively in their Glocks and do not have any problems whatsoever.

Additional notes from Hoss:
Not all lead is created equally. You can shoot lead in your Glock (probably) but you should use a hard lead from a reputable manufacturer. The homemade lead bullets made from wheel weights and other recycled lead should be avoided! Just becuase one type of lead bullet and load shoot fine in one glock does not mean it will be safe in others. Each barrel is different and must be carefully checked when first using lead.

Additional notes from JT:
You *can* shoot lead in a polygonal barrel, as many Glocksters do. But you need to be aware of some potential dangers in using lead bullets, not to mention voiding your Glock warranty if you use non-factory ammo.

First, if you decide to use lead bullets, use hardcast bullets at medium velocities for best results. This will reduce potential leading of the bore. Theoretically, polygonal rifling allows the bullet to seal the gases better than traditional land and groove rifling, thereby increasing velocities but also increasing potential problems with bore-leading-induced pressure spikes. Lead particles from the bullets have no where to hide in polygonal rifling as in the lands and grooves of conventional rifling and with better bullet-to-bore sealing, serious pressure spikes can develop when the bore is fouled.

However, note that some dismiss the purported velocity increases with polygonal rifling. Mike Orrick (GlockTalk's "BrokenArrows") has pointed out that his chronographed results of identical loads in conventionally-rifled barrels versus same-length polygonal barrels yielded higher velocities in some of the conventionally-rifled barrels.

Secondly, absolutely get all the lead out after at least every 200 rounds to avoid lead buildup, pressure spikes and potential corresponding kBs! With the tighter seal of the bullet, pressures can increase significantly in polygonal barrels. There have even been reports of Ranier-type bullets shedding bits of copper jacket in polygonal barrels, causing the same pressure spikes that are caused by excessive leading. Just be sure to use hard-cast lead bullets or good-quality jacketed bullets and keep the velocities down to earth.

Thirdly, polygonal rifling doesn't get the same grip on the bullet as conventional rifling. This may affect accuracy with some loads, especially hot ones. Even with using copper-jacketed bullets, some LEAs have reportedly banned the use of polygonal barrels in duty guns because of the potential difficulty in forensically identifying the rifling patterns on a bullet shot from a polygonal barrel. IOW, it's sometimes impossible to identify which polygonal barrel a particular bullet was shot from. Who shot whom?

Another recommendation is to moly-coat your lead bullets and/or treat your barrel with one of the spaceage lubricants, such as TW25B spray from Kleen-Bore. This will definitely help the cleaning process and may even increase velocities slightly and help with accuracy.

Last, but not least, most experts recommend getting a conventionally-rifled barrel from replacement barrelmakers such as Jarvis or Bar-Sto if you shoot a lot of lead. These barrels generally offer more case support than stock Glock barrels as a bonus. Use your replacement barrel for practice and the stock barrel for carry."

You can probably find others who defend using lead in their Glocks and I have no problem with their decision. I do not since it is so "controversial?", I have no strong reason to risk it. I do reload lead in some of my other handguns but generally do not as cost is not a factor to me. I even reload 230gr Golden Sabres as a plinking load in my 45acp for convenience of having a "decent load" for most situations if I have to grab a box of ammo out of my range bag.

[ppro]

WXL

That was a pretty good treatis on the subject. I used to have a bullet manufacturing company (lead bullets) so I am pretty familiar with all the points of view but I had never actually seen any in print fact from Glock, that they (lead bullets) are not recommended or do void their warranty in factory ammunition.

As to lead buildup causing problems, it can if you leave a heavy lead buildup in the bore, then fire a jacketed high pressure load over the top of the lead layed down in the barrel. Light leading I have not seen a problem with per say but note, that leaving a heavy buildup of lead and firing a high pressure jacketed load over the heavy lead buildup is NOT A WISE IDEA in any barrel type, Glock poly not withstanding.

I have shot moly coated lead in Glock barrels with very good success read, no problems but I have used moly in all types of bores pistol and rifle so, nothing special there.

Some of us do shoot lead in various weapons not just as a matter of low cost rather, better performance. Usually you can obtain higher velocities at lower pressure than with jacketed. The bear Tooth line of Double Tap ammo is a good example of this.

I don't think it's a matter of defending the use of lead or not, rather, just following good practice as you would and should with the use of lead in any barrel, Glock or otherwise.

If you ever do see that information on lead factory ammunition not recommended or voiding Glock warranties.....let me know. I just thought to ask if you had the facts on it.....

kind regards

Paul

[Tazz10m]

A little something that everybody seems to be missing here. The slide release lever was found to cause problems after the kb and so was changed out for a different one. If that slide release lever was hindering slide movement it could cause the slide to not go back fully into battery and so cause the gun to fire out of battery. The discription of the blown case, etc., fits a gun firing out of battery. Ones thumb putting upward pressure on the slide release lever could cause it to hinder slide movement and so cause the slide not to go fully into battery and so cause a kb. What ever caused the kb could also damage other parts of the gun (like the barrel, slide release, mag catch, etc.,) and not be readily noticeable. Damage to these parts (and others) could cause problems down the road. The barrel should be magnafluxed before firing again. The split in the silvertip case could be caused by a cracked barrel chamber... a crack that you can't see with the naked eye... The split could also be caused by the ammo being ammo that was reloaded (by some low life) and put back into the box and put on the shelf and sold as new ammo... at a gun show or even the local highly regarded gun shop. It has been known to happen. There are several other things that could have happened that i haven't mentioned as well as others have already commented on. Sorry, but no, i am not going to break this out into proper paragraphs, etc., etc., etc... Oh, i almost forgot, remember... be careful, guns can be dangerous. :supergrin:

[blaster668]

Ok guys, Mike just called me. He said after testing all 47 rds that I returned him, the cause of the failure was determined to be thin brass. The rounds were all dead on pressure wise, but he also had a couple failures and large bulges. He will be contacting everyone who purchased the lot numbers using this brass. Mike seems to be a great guy, he told me he would take care of any charges that Glock bills me.

[ppro]

Blaster

quote: Were I to have a K.B., AND have brass showing more than usual amounts of smiley's or apparent brass stress, I surely would send the guns in with a complete explanation.

Nothing missed, the gun needs to go to Glock with a complete explanation.

Paul

[WarMonkey]

I just want to let everyone here know that I had a good conversation with Mike on the phone today, he explained the whole deal with the "thin brass". This is the first time his factory has received bad brass, and he has prior to this shipped over five million rounds without a single problem. It sounded to me like he's spending the whole week answering the phones himself so he can talk to guys like us who have questions.

He's sending out e-mails to everyone who has ordered 10mm from him since this started, so he can recall all the questionable ammo, and set everybody straight.

You know, this problem can (and does) happen to even the biggest company's out there (Speer, Winchester, ect..), but how many times have we heard of the CEO of Speer answer the customer service phones when they've had a problem with a shipment?

Hats off to Mike and the rest of Double Tab, they've just gotten my buisness for life.

[ppro]

That's good service. Just what you would want.

Paul

[Reyn]

Along with Blaster and warmonkey, Mike contacted me today also and explained the brass problem. Great guy. Top notch service.

[agtman]

Ditto what WarMonkey said.

Double Tap Ammo is a first-rate, reputable company, and Mike is a stand-up guy. :rock:

I wouldn't hesitate to buy from DT again. :thumbsup:

:cool:

[ppro]

Mike does have a good company, good product and good service.

And I will continue to buy from him.

Hats off to Mike for taking care of the problem quickly, efficiently and for the good communiciatons and service follow through.

Paul

[Crazy Ed]

Originally posted by WarMonkey
I just want to let everyone here know that I had a good conversation with Mike on the phone today, he explained the whole deal with the "thin brass". This is the first time his factory has received bad brass, and he has prior to this shipped over five million rounds without a single problem. It sounded to me like he's spending the whole week answering the phones himself so he can talk to guys like us who have questions.

He's sending out e-mails to everyone who has ordered 10mm from him since this started, so he can recall all the questionable ammo, and set everybody straight.

You know, this problem can (and does) happen to even the biggest company's out there (Speer, Winchester, ect..), but how many times have we heard of the CEO of Speer answer the customer service phones when they've had a problem with a shipment?

Hats off to Mike and the rest of Double Tab, they've just gotten my buisness for life.

Mike, if you're reading this I just ordered two boxes of 200gr XTP. Send me the good stuff. After 22 years in bomb disposal, things that don't go bang properly worry me. I'm impressed with how you are dealing with the above issues and can't wait to try your ammo. Thanks for making my decision to buy Double Tap an easy one. If your ammo turns out like everyone says ... "the best" ... I'll need to start ordering in mass quantities.

Ed :supergrin:

** My KKM barrel will be here Tuesday! :cool:

[Glockman454]

Originally posted by ppro
WXL

I quoted part of your post as noted below:

" Also why his barrel rifling spec does not recommend lead bullets"

I have had trouble finding offical Glock statements that lead bullets are not recommended so I was wondering if you could point me to the offical Glock information to that effect.

Not that it would surprise me, rather, I have been unable to find it. Can you help me out with the offical source for your information regarding Glock barrels and lead bullets ?


thanks

Paul

Don't mind me for butting in. I have never read anything from Glock regarding lead bullets either, BUT, I called them and spoke to them and they said a big NO as far as lead bullets. I ask about heavier weight jacketed bullets and they said no problem as long as they are within SAAMI specs. So 200 -220 gr. jacketed are okay, but they say lead is NO NO NO !

[ppro]

Thanks Glockman454...you do good work !

This then begs the questions:

1. Why the information is not officially placed in the manual
2. Because a shooter is so advised, but not officially (in the manual for example), does Glock then warrant or not, a damaged firearm which fired factory lead ammunition. In otherwords, will they automatically deny a replacement claim or charge the customer for replacement costs if lead was used.
3. Is there anywhere that Glock has this information posted in writing such that it IS available to the end product user.

Did you happen to ask any of these questions? Not that you had to , but I just wondered.

thanks

Paul

[ppro]

On the subject of lead bullet ammunition there may be a few generalisms that may apply.

Considering the VERY wide variety of lead bullet ammunition available to the shooter it may well be that the only thing that Glock CAN do, is not recommend it.

That is, if you accept as fact that Glock factory barrels have a greater tendency to lead foul in general, Glock then cannot recommend it's use, in light of the range of lead bullet ammunition available.

There are offerings like the gas checked Double Tap hard lead bullet ammunition that do quite well in Glock barrels however there is also ammunition out there that uses much softer projectiles with poor lubricating qualities and which generally lead rather quickly in non-Glock stand rifled barrel let alone the Glock factory barrel.

Herein lies the rub....should Glock then categorically say in print that they do not recommend / warrant weapons used with lead ammunition....or....simply disrecommend it as required when pressed on the topic and then deal with claims / issues, as they arise.

Some shooters are perfectly comfortable operating in this grey area and others simply cannot and are only comfortable with black and white.

In any case, I am sure that some shooters will continue to shoot lead in their Glocks and others simply will not.

It is nice to have choices but along with those choices go the responsibility / necessity of understanding cause and effect relationships (at the very least) when dealing with lead bullet ammunition.

Paul

[WarMonkey]

Well said ppro. I think the issue just boils down to Glock taking the smart route (i.e. the one recommended by their lawyers) by giving a blanket statement about not using lead ammo. It relieves them of the worry that some idiot will damage his gun (or his person) using improper lead bullets, and then sue Glock.

This isn't an uncommon occurence nowadays. Yesterday I came home from the drugstore with a box of Q-tips that had "WARNING: DO NOT INSERT INTO EAR CANAL" printed on the carton.




Crap. I just realized I put "smart" and "lawyers" in the same sentence....

[DavidinSA]

WarMonkey? "smart" and "lawyer"? what were you thinking? :)

[ppro]

A few Glock K Booms from the Brian Enos forum....

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=34354

Both factory and handloads.

I feel much safer with my 10MM in general.

Paul