Something Put The Ar-15 To Shame

[smile_at_u90012]

Just came across this fine link yesterday.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/133585.php

[RMTactical]

That is such a joke. It's been proven false several times on just about every board it's been posted on, including this one, IIRC.

[RMTactical]

OK, here's a couple threads on this exact same thing from the past. Go ahead, read them...

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=463091

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=462140

[jonathon]

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001951.html

[smile_at_u90012]

OKOK, so i am like 20 yrs behind :supergrin: as my location implied,thanks for the input though.

[crazymoose]

Originally posted by smile_at_u90012
OKOK, so i am like 20 yrs behind :supergrin: as my location implied,thanks for the input though.

Geez, get with The Program. We all know that the AR-15 is a super reliable weapon, in any environment.*

*When maintained scrupulously, meaning cleanings several times a day.

:beer:

[Hines57]

Originally posted by crazymoose
Geez, get with The Program. We all know that the AR-15 is a super reliable weapon, in any environment.*

:beer: Pfffttttt, Ack, Ack
Let them think the AR is a good system, there are already to many people buying up all the AK ammo.

[smile_at_u90012]

Originally posted by crazymoose
Geez, get with The Program. We all know that the AR-15 is a super reliable weapon, in any environment.*

*When maintained scrupulously, meaning cleanings several times a day.

:beer:

Crazymoose did not read those info in the links above, if not,please do so.

[DaleGribble]

Here's my take on things.

The AR is the best weapon ever made! All of you AK owners need to sell your AK's, your mags and your ammo and switch over to the AR platform.

Do it for the children!

:supergrin:

[graveman]

With proper training, the AK is about as accurate as the AR. Too many people have the mythical TV image of the "bad guy with AKs" spraying about and not hitting jack, all the while the "good guys with M16s" taking them out one-shot, one-kill. Yes the sights on the AK aren't the best for castrating a rabbit at 100 m, but with enough practice one can accomplish such task. A lot of people judge the weapon by the sterile and totally meaningless "bench accuracy" .... in that department the AR wins hands down. Out in the dirt, both weapons have roughly the same accuracy, except that the AR will often fail to go bang if exposed to the elements.
A lot of those defending the AR cannot come to grips with the fact that a rifle of a third of the price of theirs will get the job done with twice the reliability. Kinda like custom $1500+ 1911's vs. Glocks.

:deadhorse:

[crazymoose]

Originally posted by smile_at_u90012
Crazymoose did not read those info in the links above, if not,please do so.

What am I missing? Ask guys that are actually using the AR-15 family over there. You have to clean them, and frequently. Often, you have to squirt some CLP into the action to keep it going. The more gunked up it gets, the more lube you need to keep it going. The more lube, the more sand that attracts. The only remedy is a field stripping and thorough cleaning when you get the chance. I understand that some dry lubes are working better, but they aren't as efficient in terms of friction reduction. In fairness, sand is tough on guns. Even the FAL had problems in Israeli service. The AK and it's offspring are about the only guns that really thrive in the desert. We ought to be using the SIG 550. AR accuracy and AK reliability.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by graveman
With proper training, the AK is about as accurate as the AR. Too many people have the mythical TV image of the "bad guy with AKs" spraying about and not hitting jack, all the while the "good guys with M16s" taking them out one-shot, one-kill. Yes the sights on the AK aren't the best for castrating a rabbit at 100 m, but with enough practice one can accomplish such task. A lot of people judge the weapon by the sterile and totally meaningless "bench accuracy" .... in that department the AR wins hands down. Out in the dirt, both weapons have roughly the same accuracy, except that the AR will often fail to go bang if exposed to the elements.
A lot of those defending the AR cannot come to grips with the fact that a rifle of a third of the price of theirs will get the job done with twice the reliability. Kinda like custom $1500+ 1911's vs. Glocks.

:deadhorse:

OK, lets be honest here. The AK is a very robust design that is known for reliability, but just like I said in another post, the reliability of AR's tends to be exaggerated just like the accuracy of the AK tends to be exaggerated.

The AR may not win the reliability battle (as far as burying it in mud or what-not, not that many folks do that too often with their battle carbines), but the AR has arguably better terminal effectiveness, and not only close in like when compared to the 7.62x51, but at further ranges than the 7.62x39 because it is capable of hitting accurately hundreds of yards further. Granted, the bullet has lost a lot of steam at that point (still much more effective than a .22 has at the muzzle past 500 yards though).

I like the AK, I have a kit I have been meaning to build for the past year, I owned one previously, and I will own more in the future. They are great rifles for what they are, but I simply believe the AR is a better overall design. You may disagree, and that is fine.

I used to think poorly of the AR. I spoke badly about it, but when I shot one, I fell in love. I can tell you that I don't have reliability issues with mine, and I know it can't just be luck because everyone I know who owns them thinks highly of them. And I know a lot of guys with AR's.

People get pissed off when I tell them about my friends who served in Iraq and had perfectly reliable M4/M16's. Sorry, it's the truth, these guns are working just fine. Not a ton of maintenance either.

You have to be able to love and admire the qualities of both rifles.

Similarly, I love Glocks, I love 1911's. Although I prefer Glocks, the 1911 is a very sound design. Same thing with the AR vs. the AK.

[betyourlife]

Originally posted by GoreLicks
OK, lets be honest here. The AK is a very robust design that is known for reliability, but just like I said in another post, the reliability of AR's tends to be exaggerated just like the accuracy of the AK tends to be exaggerated.

The AR may not win the reliability battle (as far as burying it in mud or what-not, not that many folks do that too often with their battle carbines), but the AR has arguably better terminal effectiveness, and not only close in like when compared to the 7.62x51, but at further ranges than the 7.62x39 because it is capable of hitting accurately hundreds of yards further. Granted, the bullet has lost a lot of steam at that point (still much more effective than a .22 has at the muzzle past 500 yards though).

I like the AK, I have a kit I have been meaning to build for the past year, I owned one previously, and I will own more in the future. They are great rifles for what they are, but I simply believe the AR is a better overall design. You may disagree, and that is fine.

I used to think poorly of the AR. I spoke badly about it, but when I shot one, I fell in love. I can tell you that I don't have reliability issues with mine, and I know it can't just be luck because everyone I know who owns them thinks highly of them. And I know a lot of guys with AR's.

People get pissed off when I tell them about my friends who served in Iraq and had perfectly reliable M4/M16's. Sorry, it's the truth, these guns are working just fine. Not a ton of maintenance either.

You have to be able to love and admire the qualities of both rifles.

Similarly, I love Glocks, I love 1911's. Although I prefer Glocks, the 1911 is a very sound design. Same thing with the AR vs. the AK.


Yeah, and everyone I know with an AR, is constantly telling me that they are reliable...as long as you have the right brand AR, download your magazines a couple rounds for reliable feeding, shoot the right ammo, lube it a certain way and clean it every couple hundred rounds. Oh and wash your hands before you shoot them:supergrin: Ok that last one was a joke.

Look, the AR has a reputation for being unreliable. The AK has a reputation for being inaccurate (after a LONG distance). I have found both of these to be true.

The AR had constant jamming problems in Vietnam. They have fixed SOME of the problems, but I would not trst my life to a gun that has had more versions than Rocky and craps itself everytime it fires.

The AK is no sniper rifle, but it is a much better weapon than the AR according to soldiers serving overseas right now, and a REAL aricle stating that has been posted here several times, including by me. But the AK bashers refuse to accept that fact.

The AR dominates the US and only the US. Outside of here, the AK rules the world.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by betyourlife
[B]The AK is no sniper rifle, but it is a much better weapon than the AR according to soldiers serving overseas right now, and a REAL aricle stating that has been posted here several times, including by me.[B]

I was GONNA leave this one alone, until I read this part... Simply not true.

Look, we can agree that some folks prefer the AK and some folks prefer the AR, but to flat out say that the AK "is a much better weapon than the AR according to soldiers serving overseas right now" is just straight up BS.

If that were true, the guys I knew who spend time in the sandbox would have been carrying the AK exclusively.

For instance, a good friend of mine does have an AK pistol that he carries often (G19 is his sidearm), working PSD (Former Army). But when he wants a rifle, he grabs an M4.

He's been over there off an on since the war started.

Here is him with his AK pistol.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/AK-Kelly11.jpg

another (that might be an underfolder actually)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/kellyBaghdad2.jpg

and one with his M4

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/kellyIraq2.jpg

I don't know why it made my pics so tiny, they must be very good res.

I have another friend, did 9 months in and around Baghdad (Sgt. in the Marine reserves). They did a lot of training and working with Iraqi officers in the Iraqi Army. He could take an AK out of the armory any time he wanted to. He never wanted to. He loved his M4, claimed it NEVER FAILED HIM (why am I not surprised?), and he claimed he never saw a failure with anyone's in his squad.

They willingly trust their lives with the AR. They must know something about these weapons.

[graveman]

Well they can't much ***** about their issued weapons, that would be like complaining to your wife about her cooking :supergrin: .
Keep in mind a lot of these guys never held an assault rifle before going in the service so the AR / M16 is all they know.
I used to like my Bushmaster, which was basically the same as the FN-made one that I was issued in my little "stint" between 1999 and 2000 ( medical discharge ) except for select fire. If the AK wasn't simpler, more durable, and about a third of the price, I would buy one again just to have one.
In my neck of the woods ( literally ) in upstate SC there are no "wide open spaces" to justify the need for something that can reach out to 3-400 meters, so the AK fits the bill.

:deadhorse:

BTW nice Krink your friend got there. Massive firepower within 25 m and kicks like a mule if it's 7.62, even with the stock extended. It definitely wouldn't be a good AK to use for comparison with the M4, that would be like an OlyArms pistol vs a fixed-stock AK.

[Hines57]

Originally posted by GoreLicks
I was GONNA leave this one alone, until I read this part... You know we count on that fact, don't you? It provides hours of entertainment. Anytime, anywhere on the internet a discouraging word is said about an AR, we count on Gorelicks to come to the defense.

All in good fun, thanks!

:popcorn: :beer:

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by Hines57
You know we count on that fact, don't you? It provides hours of entertainment. Anytime, anywhere on the internet a discouraging word is said about an AR, we count on Gorelicks to come to the defense.

All in good fun, thanks!

:popcorn: :beer:

I... JUST... CAN'T... RESIST...

These threads are like Krytonite to me. They just draw me in... I have stopped the .45, .40, 9mm caliber debates for the longest time, but I just can't stop posting in these kind of threads... :frown:

:supergrin:

[Fear762]

Originally posted by GoreLicks
[BI have stopped the .45, .40, 9mm caliber debates for the longest time [/B]

Whats your take on the caliber debate?

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by Fear762
Whats your take on the caliber debate?

My personal take is that the difference between most self defense calibers is so insignificant (power-wise), that you really just need to pick a caliber and train with it. The only way to eliminate threats is rapid shot placement at COM.

No such thing as a reliable one stop shot.

"Discussing Power among handgun cartridges is much like discussing rank among Privates."

Look at this thread.

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=393223

[454]

Talked to my buddy, who was on leave from the sandbox. They did not have much problems with their M-4, as far as jamming, but penetration sucks. Bullets bounced off the windshields and car bodies.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by 454
Talked to my buddy, who was on leave from the sandbox. They did not have much problems with their M-4, as far as jamming, but penetration sucks. Bullets bounced off the windshields and car bodies.

Yeah, standard FMJ isn't good in that caliber with glass. Too bad they can't have Trophy bonded bear claws. :supergrin:

[graveman]

Originally posted by 454
Talked to my buddy, who was on leave from the sandbox. They did not have much problems with their M-4, as far as jamming, but penetration sucks. Bullets bounced off the windshields and car bodies.

:laughabove:

TOLD YOU SO

:deadhorse:

[jonathon]

Originally posted by 454
Talked to my buddy, who was on leave from the sandbox. They did not have much problems with their M-4, as far as jamming, but penetration sucks. Bullets bounced off the windshields and car bodies.

Does not make sense to me.. what ranges are we talking?

[crazymoose]

Originally posted by jonathon
Does not make sense to me.. what ranges are we talking?


Glass is very hard and will often deflect even 7.62x51 rounds. Doesn't matter if the glass shatters, the bullet's already knocked off course. You can get specialty loads that do better, but regular FMJ sucks in both 5.56 and 7.62.

[454]

What he said :)

[Critias]

Originally posted by graveman
:laughabove:

TOLD YOU SO

:deadhorse:

What are you even talking about? The quote (especially the part you highlighted) says "they didn't have much problem as far as jamming." What makes you think that's something for you, the anti-AR guy, to be laughing about and saying "I told you so?"

I mean, "they didn't have much problem as far as jamming." That could just as easily be a sentence GoreLicks just typed. Why are you claiming some sort of victory, here?

[Ramses II]

I've seen this post all-over the net too. Every forum seems to easily debunk it.

Does anyone know of any honest opions from GIs who have served? Thanks,
Ramses II

[454]

Ramses, all I have to go by is my buddy, who spent the last 6 months in the Sunni triangle. His unit did not have problems with M4 as far as jamming. They did have hard time getting to BG if car glass was involved. I have no reason to doubt what he said.

In short, they have good weapons, good ammo, that might require several shots to put BG down in some instances.

That's all I want to say on a public forum. He is back in the sandbox, and I am sure our enemies search internet for any tidbit of usefull info they can find.

[fnfalman]

According to Samuel L. Jackson, if you were to want to kill every mofo in the room, you need an AK-47.:cool:

If you were to want to scare them to death then you bust down the door and run in all decked out in commando gear and the cute Barbie doll.

[Ramses II]

454,
Good Point. I hadn't thought of that :clown:
Jim M.