IDPA classifier ranks, a little survey & questions

[jayfarm]

I shot my first IDPA event, and it was a classifier. I did okay for myself, being the first time out there they all gave a little extra to make sure I really felt comfortable and knew what I had to do.

I kept pace with the regulars pretty well, and the RSO's all commented on how smooth my reloads were compared to many of the guys. I placed just a bit shy of sharpshooter and so was one of the 11 or so marksman ranked shooters. There were 2 sharpshooters, and 1 guy wound up getting novice(? score too high to be marksman?).

How does this compare? Is marksman supposed to be challenging? I know I ROYALLY flubbed the last stage up via missing a few. If I had missed just a hair less I would have been SS, if I didn't miss and only got down 3's or down 1's I had a chance of making expert (slim chance, but it was there!).

Is marksman good?

All in all I had a great time, and now I know what I need to work on the most. I'm definately going to become one of the "regulars" at that club, and it's a very different than what I thought it would be. Much more relaxed and fun.

Jay

[Jim Watson]

Marksman is the fourth class down... Master, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman. Novice is those who do not make the maximum time for Marksman.

So Marksman is good in the sense that you are on the charts. You can work your way up in the annual Classifier or by winning at a match with ten or more in your class.

The third stage at 20 yards is the most demanding part of the Classifier, more time taken and points dropped there than anywhere. Too many folks practicing at 20 feet instead of 20 yards.
The other major hangup is misses on the first stage headboxes.

[jayfarm]

Originally posted by Jim Watson
The third stage at 20 yards is the most demanding part of the Classifier, more time taken and points dropped there than anywhere. Yep yep! That was the other good thing about this being a "practice" of sorts, I found out what I was weak in really quick and that was this stage.

I did REALLY well (in my opinion, and looking at others scores) on the 1st and 2nd stage. All of my crappiness in the scores came from the 3rd stage at the longer shots.

Jay

[TimP]

I personaly don't think the classifier is a good test of ones abilities.

Point being, my 11 yr old brother practiced the IDPA classifier for abotu 3 weeks and shot it in EXPERT time. he also isnt old enough to compete in IDPA. :upeyes:

[hapuna]

Originally posted by TimP
I personaly don't think the classifier is a good test of ones abilities.

Point being, my 11 yr old brother practiced the IDPA classifier for abotu 3 weeks and shot it in EXPERT time. he also isnt old enough to compete in IDPA. :upeyes:

I don't see anything in your post to indicate its not a good test of one's abilities. He practiced and shot well. No surprise there. What did you shoot in the classifier? :supergrin:

[TimP]

Originally posted by hapuna
I don't see anything in your post to indicate its not a good test of one's abilities. He practiced and shot well. No surprise there. What did you shoot in the classifier? :supergrin:

I shot Master class when I shot a classifier a few months ago.

To elaborate on your statement. Sure my kid bro can shoot expert class, but he will get hammered if he tried to compete in expert class. I "think" the classifier only makes people do 1-2 reloads but I cant remember exactly. It IS a good course of fire, but I dont think it works all the time. then again, I dont have a better idea. Thats why I dont shoot IDPA anymore, even though I won at the SC state match last yr.

IDPA is a simple game to figure out. You can simply shoot fast enough to deal with some -1's.

[Speedrock]

The Classifier is or may be, a good test. They have to HAVE something?
Where it's at fault is, it can't factor in all the running and kneling I see in our local and the few Sanctioned Matches around our neck of the Woods. Plus, it's essentially Static, you can pratice it to the point of memorization and do very, very well on it if you so desire.

Used to be an SO or MD at one of our local Clubs a few yrs back. Even have those who "game" the Da#@ thing and start dropping shots so they'll stay "Expert" and be more able to "Win" rather than work to place, etc. in Master, etc. You really can't catch or prove it as they shoot local Matchs to keep skills sharp and shoot the Circuit as craftilly as some of these "TV" Poker Players play tournaments these days.

The way this kind of thing is handled locally, is simpley via Season Trophies and NO Prize table at all. The only way you get to the table is via buying tickets OR via award of tickets for your actual
"Worker" hours for the entire season.

You'll know what your Classification should really be once you get a few Matchs under your belt and shoot against/with your new friends. It's almost by "feel" assuming there is enough depth of individual shooters in the class your close to, either side........

Or, Just shot & have FUN, and let it sort itself out!

[TimP]

Originally posted by Speedrock
The Classifier is or may be, a good test. They have to HAVE something? Where it's at fault is it can't factor in all the running and kneling I see in our local and the few Sanctioned Matches around our neck of the Woods. Plus it's essentially Static, you can pratice it to the point of morization and do very, very well on it if you so desire.

Used to be an SO or MD at one of our local Clubs a few yrs back. Even have those whon "gmae" the Da#@ thing and start droppin g shots so they'll stay "Expert" and be more able to "Win" rather than work to place, etc. in Master, etc. You really can catch or prove it as they shoot local Matchs to keep skills sharp and shoot the Circuit as crafily as some of these "TV" Poker Players play tournaments these days.

The way this kind of thing is handled locally, is simply via Season Trophies and NO Prize table at all. The only way you get to the table is via buying tickets OR via award of tickets for your actual
"Worker" hours for the entire season.

You'll know what your Classification should really be once you get a few Matchs under your belt and shoot against/with your new friends. It's almost by "feel" assuming there is enough depth of individual shooters in the class your close to, either side........

Or, Just shot & have FUN, and let it sort itself out!

couldnt have said it any better myself.

[Steve Koski]

All tests reveal ONLY how well you do on the test. By definition, they can't test stuff that's not on the test.

Rocket science, eh?

[rhino465]

The classifier is a good test of the type of shooting skills expected in IDPA. It's just not a good predicter of match performance, which will almost always include significantly more movement for instance. How poorly it reflects match conditions depends on the club and how their stages are designed. Those who prefer run'n'gun stages with 18 rounds (i.e. IPSC-lite) are not going to match closely with the skills tested in the classifier.

It's not unlike USPSA. The classifier stages do not reflect the variety of stages one will encounter even in a club match, much less a state, area, or nationals match. There are a lot of people who can classify much higher than what they performance in big matches demonstrates (thus the terms "paper master" and "grand bagger").

[Leozinho]

I like the classifier only because it gives me an rough idea where I stand against every one else in the nation, rather than just the couple dozen of same guys I shoot with on a monthly basis. It gives me a way to judge roughly where I'm at, and whether I'm progressing.

I don't get worked up over guys sandbagging, because I look at the overall results of the match, rather than if I beat the others in my classification.

TimP: Hey, if you want to brag about about being 1st Marksman at SC state, go ahead. But I'd hardly call that "figuring out" IDPA. (unless you figured out how to sandbag and win a meaningless designation.)

[TimP]

Originally posted by Leozinho
TimP: Hey, if you want to brag about about being 1st Marksman at SC state, go ahead. But I'd hardly call that "figuring out" IDPA. (unless you figured out how to sandbag and win a meaningless designation.)

I wasn't sandbagging. I hadn't shot an IDPA match/qualifier in over 11 months prior to the SC match. What I had shot was alot of SASS and USPSA. Its all a game, and I hardly do it for the glory. But I will be the first to admit getting your name called, and getting a trophy for your hard work, is something I really enjoy. IDPA, USPSA, SASS, Highpower, 3Gun, 1000 yard etc etc, is all a game. They keep score, therefore someone has to win, I just assume it be me. Its very clear to see who is at a match to "just shoot" and who is at the match to "win". The way I see it is, if I am spending money on hotel room, equipment, entry fee, gas, then I dont want my time wasted. I put 100% into whatever match I shoot, and I want to do the very best that I can. Sometimes that means winning, sometimes it doesnt, but I am still doing my best.

That is the other main reason I like Cowboy shooting. We don't have classes in each division. Pick traditional, duelist, gunfighter, classic cowboy, whatever you want, and shoot it. See where ya end up when the scores are totaled.

The biggest thing that has helped me with IDPA/USPSA was me starting to shoot SASS. Moreso than that, shooting in the gunfighter catagory. Shooting both 45colt pistols at the same time, one in each hand. Thats a whole nother beast right there. So when I get to use an autoloader, AND use both hands, its like I'm cheating.

Hope everyone has a great Easter holiday, and a safe time shooting
Tim

[J.P.]

I do not think the classifier is scored fairly.
as mentioned above,you can easily score "Expert" or "Master" when in reality you are a Marksman or Sharpshooter level shooter.

The way i see it,the lower you classify the better.
Sandbagging? Yes,but you will get bumped up if you are good enough and that's the way it *should* be,IMO.

[eljay45]

Originally posted by J.P.
[B

The way i see it,the lower you classify the better.
Sandbagging? Yes,but you will get bumped up if you are good enough and that's the way it *should* be,IMO. [/B]


The problem with that is in a sanctioned match there aern't always enough people in your class to get you bumped. And I have shot plenty of matches where no one enforces the bumping. If you don't volunteer your card to document your getting bumped it may never happen.

As far as classifying lower being better I have to disagree. I'd rather lose as an expert than win as a sharpshooter.

[MarkCO]

It's all relative...Marksman is decent for the first time, depending on how much you shoot and practice. The first time I shot the Classifier, I was expert, missing Master by a few seconds. I've shot it twice in the past 5 years in "practice" and shot Master by about 5 seconds in two divisions. I was kind of surprised since my USPSA rating was C class at the time. FWIW, Master in IDPA is not even close to Master, or Grand Master in USPSA. Most of our local shooters are MM and SS with a few Experts and Masters. All of the Masters (like 4 or 5 out of about 100 shooters) shoot USPSA and are solid As or Bs with one M.

The more you practice and focus on the hard skills, strong hand, 25 yards, etc. the better you will do on the classifier and the matches. When I go to the range to actually practice, I try to shoot strong and weak hand, prone, laying on my side and mostly at 30 yards or so. Then I do some 5-10 yard speed shooting. When you practice like this, the matches become pretty easy. I had not shot a match since last September when I shot the April IDPA match. Got 2nd (of about 20) in SSP with a gun that was bore sighted with a laser and I had never shot before (with a FO front sight that was also totally new to me) a new G17. I am not a 9mm fan and this was my first match ever with a 9mm. But practicing shooting a major PF .40 at longer distnaces made the 9mm shooting fairly easy. Also shot a Kahr PM9 in the BUG stage, never had fired that gun either and got 3rd (of about 25).

The classifier is a decent test of IDPA type shooting skills. It does not test foot speed or reloading, but that factors into match scores.

[Ben Stoeger]

Originally posted by MarkCO
FWIW, Master in IDPA is not even close to Master, or Grand Master in USPSA. Most of our local shooters are MM and SS with a few Experts and Masters. All of the Masters (like 4 or 5 out of about 100 shooters) shoot USPSA and are solid As or Bs with one M.



I hear this sort of thing quite a bit. Its really an apples and oranges comparison.

FWIW, I find the IDPA classifier much much tougher to get a "good" score on than the vast majority of USPSA classifier stages.

[Speedrock]

"FWIW, Master in IDPA is not even close to Master, or Grand Master in USPSA."

On the other hand, a local USPSA GM shot the local IDPA Clubs Winter indoor Classifier {under crappy flouresent lighting} and made SSP EX with a 119.69. Doubt he practiced for it, or possibly was just looking for something to do in the Winter as hasn't shot any IDPA Matchs at the same Club as it also uses its ranges for USPSA.

[Ankeny]

FWIW, I find the IDPA classifier much much tougher to get a "good" score on than the vast majority of USPSA classifier stages.

I find it the other way around. Shooting a GM score on USPSA classifiers is really tough. Shooting 100% is very difficult.

[Ben Stoeger]

Depending on the USPSA classifier, I can shoot a %100er much more easily than I can shoot the IDPA classifier.

For Example, I can nail a 10HF El Prez shooting my production rig with a fair degree of regularity.

Getting Under 75 or so on the IDPA Classifier (the big guys consistently run it between 65-75) is very tough. You have to shoot very well for 90 rds. Also, the scoring system in IDPA is much less forgiving.

YMMV

[rhino465]

I shot the classifer last week in 118.95, which comfortably makes "Expert" in SSP.

Unfortunately for me, I was shooting ESP. :supergrin:

This is further evidence that I am a doofus. I missed two of the head shots on Stage 1. One hit the target, but those non-scoring borders on IDPA targets are HUGE! Hehe There was no excuse for it, and I was not going too fast (31.03 raw time for the whole stage). I just pulled 'em off target by milkin' the ol' grip. No excuse for that kind of mistake, but at least I'm doing it a lot less than I was last year.

Further evidence of doofosity, Part deux. On the El Pres string of Stage II, my didn't lock back, so I didn't rack the slide after I reloaded. When I dropped the hammer on my first shot after the reload, I got that "click: you don't want to hear when you expact "Bang!" So there I am, standing there, looking at my gun and wondering why it didn't fire. Then it dawned on me that you only load six rounds for the first part, and it had to be empty. Duh. Now, someone who has been doing this stuff for a while might have planned ahead since 1) the slide on his 9mm hasn't been locking back reliably for ... a long time, and 2) there were only six round in the gun, so it had to be empty whether the slide was locked back or not. So there's a little more time there. Plus I panicked and three a couple of shots in the down 3 zone right after that happened.

On the bright side, I did better on Stage 3 than I have in the past. I think it's the first time I got all the hits, with down 1, 4, and 8 respectively. Raw time was 40.93, which isn't bad for me with the kneeling jazz and all.

So if I can shoot stage 3 okay next time and not be a moron on 1 and 2, I should make Expert in ESP.

Now, what will that gain me? Nothing other than an ego boost. Since I can't run fast or get down/up from kneeling/prone fast, I'm going to get my a** whipped at most bigger matches by a decent MM class shooter. That's just the way it is. I still have fun and I'm still getting practice with my pistola. More importantly, though, I look good while I'm doing it. :supergrin:

[rhino465]

Originally posted by Ankeny
I find it the other way around. Shooting a GM score on USPSA classifiers is really tough. Shooting 100% is very difficult.

Curiously, I too have a tough time shooting GM scores on USPSA classifiers. :supergrin:

That might be because I'm a perpetual C-class shooter who just clawed his way back up over 50% in Limited10 after having been on a constant downward spiral for the last two years. ;)

[jayfarm]

Originally posted by rhino465
On the bright side, I did better on Stage 3 than I have in the past. I think it's the first time I got all the hits, with down 1, 4, and 8 respectively. Raw time was 40.93, which isn't bad for me with the kneeling jazz and all.

So if I can shoot stage 3 okay next time and not be a moron on 1 and 2, I should make Expert in ESP. For me it's all Stage 3. My stage 1 and 2 scores beat even the fellow who made "expert" by a fraction of point. It was all in my stage 3 that I missed a bunch. It was 2 things for me, I was still tired from my saturday shooting event and party, and I don't normally shoot at those distances. I shoot farther and shorter, so now I know what to fix.

That to me was the best part of this whole thing, it identified my weak area - namely the distance - so that I can correct it and go back to rock the house next month.

:cool:

Jay

[rhino465]

Originally posted by jayfarm
That to me was the best part of this whole thing, it identified my weak area - namely the distance - so that I can correct it and go back to rock the house next month.
[/B]

That's good to know!

Of course, this also goes back to the fact that classifier is not a good predicter of match performance. It's unlikely you will find a 20 yard shot (if ever) in an actual match.

On the other hand, for overall development, you need to be able to make shots like that.

[jayfarm]

Originally posted by rhino465
That's good to know!

Of course, this also goes back to the fact that classifier is not a good predicter of match performance. It's unlikely you will find a 20 yard shot (if ever) in an actual match.

On the other hand, for overall development, you need to be able to make shots like that. I usually go with 25 yards for my distance. Which means I was overcorrecting on the shorter 20 yard distance. You're right that this doesn't represent real matches, but I use all different types of competition I go to as weak area / strong area identification so I can fix what's wrong and continue to do what works. =)

Jay

[Ankeny]

Depending on the USPSA classifier, I can shoot a %100er much more easily than I can shoot the IDPA classifier.

How many 100% classifiers do you have on file?

[J.P.]

Originally posted by eljay45
The problem with that is in a sanctioned match there aern't always enough people in your class to get you bumped. And I have shot plenty of matches where no one enforces the bumping. If you don't volunteer your card to document your getting bumped it may never happen.


you might have a point there.
I just figuredthat if you are truly good enough,you will earn your rank rather than "win" it during a classifier.

[Ben Stoeger]

A54313 if you care to look it up.

[Ankeny]

Ben:

I am not trying to rattle your cage. I am probably painting with a real wide brush, but I am interpretting you as saying it's more difficult to achieve the highest level in IDPA (Master) than it is to achieve the highest level in USPSA (GM).

On the other hand, if you mean it's probably easier at your skill level to burn a USPSA classifier to the ground in 5 seconds than it is to remain consistent enough through out the duration of the IDPA classifier to get a killer score, then I would agree. Are we on the same page?

BTW, I looked your scores up. Those are the most consistently high bunch of classifiers I have ever seen. I am thinking you are kind of speedy. I have Production envy. ;)

TY43321

[Ben Stoeger]

Ron,


What I was saying was this part:

"it's probably easier at your skill level to burn a USPSA classifier to the ground in 5 seconds than it is to remain consistent enough through out the duration of the IDPA classifier to get a killer score"

As for whats easier to accomplish MA in IDPA or GM in USPSA.... I think we all know the answer to that question.

[rhino465]

Originally posted by Ben Stoeger

As for whats easier to accomplish MA in IDPA or GM in USPSA.... I think we all know the answer to that question.

Oh, yeah. I'm pretty sure that if I practiced the IDPA classifier a while that I could shoot a master class score. I'd barely make it, but I think I could do. The hard part for me would be the movement to the barrel and kneeling on stage 3.

As far as USPSA goes ... if I practiced, I know I could make B in Limited and Limite10. I was at 54% a couple of years ago and starting to shoot 60% classifiers.

I'm not so confident that I could make A class. Maybe, but I'd have to practice a LOT and get lucky a few times. In any case, I'd be a "paper" A class shooter.

I don't think I have a prayer of getting to M. Me getting to GM is beyond my comprehension.

[Speedrock]

"The hard part for me would be the movement to the barrel and kneeling on stage 3."

Me too! But, from a bad back and being over 60.

Being able to do a "Footballers" move from the barricade to the barrel at warp speed on Stage 3 hasn't much to do with Master level shooting skills does it?

They Bytch 'cause am using knee pads with thick gel capsules. {Have a letter from M.D.} Certainly not willing to blow out a bulged disc., etc.

[Andrew Colglazier]

Originally posted by Speedrock
"The hard part for me would be the movement to the barrel and kneeling on stage 3."

Me too! But, from a bad back and being over 60.

Being able to do a "Footballers" move from the barricade to the barrel at warp speed on Stage 3 hasn't much to do with Master level shooting skills does it?

Sure doesn't *hurt* your score....

:)

Andy C.

[rhino465]

Originally posted by Speedrock
Being able to do a "Footballers" move from the barricade to the barrel at warp speed on Stage 3 hasn't much to do with Master level shooting skills does it?

Amen! Furthermore, I'm curious what the "tactical" motivation might be to move from really good simulated cover to significantly less good simulated cover. But then, logic and common sense don't apply in Big Bill's Arbitrary & Capricious Land. :supergrin:


Originally posted by Speedrock

They Bytch 'cause am using knee pads with thick gel capsules. {Have a letter from M.D.} Certainly not willing to blow out a bulged disc., etc.

I need to use knee pads too, or I'm going to get hurt! Fortunately the local match directors let me use them for club matches. The one time I shot a regional match, they made me do the soft pads under the pants thing. That resulted in the now famous "The Day the Pants Failed" story. I shall not repeat that experience, thank you.

I don't think anyone locally complains about me using them, at least that I know about. It's pretty obvious that I need them.

The "knee pads are cheating unless we can't see them" rule is among the worst in IDPA (which is saying something!).


Originally posted by Andrew Colglazier
Sure doesn't *hurt* your score....

True! As is the converse!

[Andrew Colglazier]

Originally posted by rhino465


True! As is the converse!

What is the inverse? That it doesn't help your score? I disagree.... movement from position to position is one of the places where a MA will prove the difference from SS and below.... Consistency and accuracy are where a MA will prove the difference between MA and EX....

You can only make up so much time over the competition by pulling the trigger... accuracy is key, but aside from that, Masters don't win while pulling the trigger, necessarily. And they certainly don't stand around looking at the landscape when they need to be haulin' buttocks to the next position.

Andy C.

[Speedrock]

"...they made me do the soft pads under the pants thing."

Have no problems re, local matchs either, may be they know am not using the pads to game anything? As you had, at one Sanctioned Match, some aggressive nazzi tried to jump me for just "having" them haning off my range bag. Went thru the pants routine too. Told him no way was i going to wear long pants in 90 degree heat and humidity when only used them once in a while, etc. Guy persisted until I told him would be glad to have the ADA Lawyer send him a letter explaining just WHO has to recognize federal law concerning the '94 "Americans with Disabilities" law/rights, etc. Shomehow his hat size shrunk right down to normal ASAP.....

[eljay45]

Originally posted by Speedrock
"

Guy persisted until I told him would be glad to have the ADA Lawyer send him a letter explaining just WHO has to recognize federal law concerning the '94 "Americans with Disabilities" law/rights, etc. Shomehow his hat size shrunk right down to normal ASAP.....

I'd have told you to have him send the letter. If you want to play IDPA with pads then wear pants. It may be dumb rule but it's a rule. All games have them.

[bruce282]

I've shot both USPSA and IDPS for a little over a year now, and have stayed out of the 'us vs them' and the 'How Stupid Is That' rants here and on other sites but.............

First I feel good traction while moving with a loaded gun is a gun safety issue, and knee/elbow pads are a personnel safety issue.

I could get a FTDR or a match DQ for wearing a pair of baseball, football, or golf cleats. But I can go to any police supply store and buy a pair of SWAT boots with the gnarliest cleats you're ever seen and they're legal. Makes no sense at all.

As far as the knee and elbow pads go, I have no idea why the litmus test is "Can you see the damn things". What's going to happen when someone shows with knee pads under cutoffs that go just below the knee, legal or not?

Just me 2 cents, and of course YMMV.

Bruce

[rhino465]

Originally posted by bruce282

First I feel good traction while moving with a loaded gun is a gun safety issue, and knee/elbow pads are a personnel safety issue.

I could get a FTDR or a match DQ for wearing a pair of baseball, football, or golf cleats. But I can go to any police supply store and buy a pair of SWAT boots with the gnarliest cleats you're ever seen and they're legal. Makes no sense at all.

As far as the knee and elbow pads go, I have no idea why the litmus test is "Can you see the damn things". What's going to happen when someone shows with knee pads under cutoffs that go just below the knee, legal or not?

You're absolutely right on all counts, and you show a significant amount of insight for someone who has only been shooting in the sports a year. It's unfortunate that the owner of IDPA and those who influence him can't see things as clearly.

It is my opinion that were cleats and pads not used frequently in USPSA/IPSC, they would not be disallowed in IDPA. It's one of those "we can't be like IPSC" rules.

I'm going to use knee pads when I feel I need them. I'm not going to increase my risk of heat-related injury just to hide them. If that means I get a procedural or the absurd "failure to do right" penalty, then it's a small price to pay to avoid injury.

[bruce282]

Rhino,

A couple of points.

:soap:

I truly believe that IPDA took the "Not Invented Here (i.e. if they ever did in IPSC, it's illegal here)" motto to an extreme when coming up with their rules.

My dearly departed Mother would accused people of "talking out of both sides of their mouth" when they would take opposite sides of an argument depending on who around. Cleats and pads are great examples.

Right hand, "Cleated shoes designed for specific sports (i.e., football, baseball, golf, etc.) may not be worn."

Left hand, "Psst buddy, go to any tactical store and buy a pair of SWAT boots, better cleats than Nike whatevers, and they're legal."

BTW what happens when Nike markets a pair of cleated shoes with the product description "Not designed for any specific sport or competition", are they legal?

Right Hand, "You may not wear hard shell knee pads".
Left Hand. "You may wear soft pads, but only if they can't be seen".

Copied from the rule book "The rationale for this is found in the
Purpose and Principles at the beginning of this book." Well there are 6 different Purpose and Principles in the front of the book and I'm not sure which one explains why visible knee-pads are bad, and invisible knee-pads are fine.

Now having said all that, IDPA is a game. IPSC is a game. IPDA is Bill Wilson's game, he owns it, he has the right to set the rules. My problem is some of his rules make no sense, or contradict themselves depending on where you are in the rule book. If I want to play his game, I play by his rules, regardless of what I think of them. If I don't like his rules I am free to go elsewhere.

If I were King of IDPA for a day, here's what I do.

1) Ask all my players to review the rule book and point out to HQ possible changes to make it more clear. I don't mean a ***** session, but areas that need clarification or further explanation.

2) Make sure that every email sent to HQ is answered. I sent them an email last December asking if the CZ97B was a legal CDP gun. I am still waiting for an answer. Have people answer the phone when someone has a question, rather than wanting to buy something. The image that IDPA-HQ has right now among some IDPA shooters is pretty tarnished, "they all sit at HQ and watch the money roll in for doing nothing". Not saying this is true, but that's the perception among some folks.

3) Remove any language from anything related to IDPA that sounds like IPSC/USPSA bashing or badmouthing.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Bruce

[Speedrock]

"It may be dumb rule but it's a rule. All games have them."

Your point is well taken. However, the health and welfare of participants in an organized sport or competition takes precedence.

According to the M.D.'s {some that shoot} and the attorneys have talked to, people that have taken the trouble to get letters stating "Medical necessity" for use of certain braces, pads, etc. have done IDPA, etc. a FAVOR by protecting them from law suits. If I choose to participate in a match with said letter and use gel pads then get hurt, the fault lies with ME and no one else, otherwise it could be easily argued in court that sufficient padding was NOT provided as per IDPA's "New" rules:

"If knee-pads are necessary for the competitor, they may use soft
knee pads WORN UNDER THE CLOTHING."

Does NOT mention or include: "Medically Necessary"....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"When designating areas where low cover is to be used, match
directors and CoF designers should use carpet, cardboard or some
other padding at those points in the CoF where competitors are
expected to kneel. Brass, rocks and other objects should be
removed from that area between competitors during competition."

Tossing a piece of cardboard down on wet grass is a joke!

Carpet slips too, once "lubed" by squished grass and a few shooters grinding down on same at speed, etc. What real "padding" does a square of carpet provide? And, on what surface?

Removing stuff "between competitors" just doesn't work in truth does it? A Dream statement!

Kind of obvious they did not have any legal Eagles review the text before printing their new rule book?


Bottom Line? Just like anything else in Life: CYA

[eljay45]

Originally posted by Speedrock
Just like anything else in Life: CYA


That's why every place I have ever shot has made me sign a waiver.
I'm not sure how you could sue someone after you signed a waiver saying they weren't responsible if you get hurt. But this is America so I guess anything is possible.

I think the knee pad rule is kind of silly, but if somoene came up to me and threatened to have an attorney send me a letter if I didn't change the rules for them. I'd probably get an attitude.


I find some of the rules in IDPA and USPSA to be stupid. But I like to play so I follow the rules. And I doubt that wearing long pants instead of shorts is going to give anyone a heat stroke. So it isn't very hard to protect yourself and still play by the rules.

[bruce282]

Does NOT mention or include: "Medically Necessary"....

I meant to mention this myself and forgot about it. I do believe "medically required" would trump the rule book in this case. My match shooting so far has been mainly inside or in good weather. I'm not fast anyway and running in wet grass or mud would slow me down even more. Of course the opposite is true, I was reading on I think Brian's forums about folks taking a tumble when their cleats hit wet wood.



I'm not sure how you could sue someone after you signed a waiver saying they weren't responsible if you get hurt.

You would think it couldn't happen, but Mark Donahue's (sp?) family managed to sue Goodyear for millions after he died in crash testing new Goodyear racing tires with a signed waiver in place. Granted this was in late 70s early 80s IIRC. I used to race sports cars around the same time and we would always laugh about it when we signed our "I can't sue the track, the SCCA, or anyone if I get killed" waivers.


Bruce

[eljay45]

Originally posted by bruce282
I do believe "medically required" would trump the rule book in this case.


Bruce


I'm not sure that it would. No one is forcing you to play so what good is a doctors letter. I'm sure this is politically incorrect but I feel like if you are not physically able to play a game in accorance with the rules then you should find a new game rather than expecting the game to change to suit an individuals paticular needs. This isn't like requiring wheel chair ramps at the courthouse. Once again, I think the kneepad rule is silly.

This thread has sure gotten off topic.

BTW Bruce, IDPA HQ hasn't replied to my last 4 emails so I know how you feel.

[Speedrock]

Some good points from all......

Much more background than can or want to relate but have even asked to be "allowed" to pay and shoot "not for score", etc.

IMO, it boils down to the phrase/thought the SOI kept revisiting last time we had an SO class at our local Club: "Did the shooter do/use it to gain a competitive advantage?"

In my own case am slow as molasses, when the young fellows run or sprint I'm stuck walking or shuffling "fast". Pay enough of a price in indirect time penalties in the 1st. place. Not to mention the COF 5 is on of their hard and fast rules:

"CoF 5. Avoid designing courses of fire that will substantially
disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters."

Our local Club makes ALL their COF's so that if there is a shooting position requiring kneeling, it is the last one of the String or Stage, FWIW. IOW, they don't discriminate. We have a couple of guys in their mid-60's who've shot guns their entire lives including WW II & Korea, and when I was MD or local IDPA organizer surely was not about to tell anyone like that "to find another sport or pastime" out of simple respect. One shoots a P-35 or a Makarov and hands shake noticeably, his draw is horrible and he is SLOW, can't hear the start tone half the time but once the sights are up and on his accuracy is superb! Shot Bulls-eye for decades. If he enjoys it he belongs in our Club, no question. Not to mention he shows up at Summer matches in a black Russian motorcycle with a sidecar with his wife along for the ride......

"There is more to life than increasing its speed"

Gandhi (1869-1948)

[bruce282]

Originally posted by eljay45
I'm not sure that it would. No one is forcing you to play so what good is a doctors letter. I'm sure this is politically incorrect but I feel like if you are not physically able to play a game in accorance with the rules then you should find a new game rather than expecting the game to change to suit an individuals paticular needs. This isn't like requiring wheel chair ramps at the courthouse. Once again, I think the kneepad rule is silly.

This thread has sure gotten off topic.

BTW Bruce, IDPA HQ hasn't replied to my last 4 emails so I know how you feel.

First let me say I agree with you, but I 'm sure most golf folks, and almost all golf pros had the same feeling and felt there was no way Casey Martin would win his suit. The whole thing really muddied the waters as far as the ADA act goes. But like I said earlier, if I have to wear long pants to cover the pads, if I want to wear them, then that's the rules, and you should play games by the rules.

Time to get back to the real topic.

Bruce