Gun mounted lights vs. handheld lights

[hankhan]

Which is better? Why?

How bright are the small handheld LED lights - in lumens? How do they compare with the Streamlight/Surefire gun mounted lights in beam dispersion? cost?

[kengps]

They are for the most part the same light heads and bulbs. Just different cases. Of course the weapon mounted cases are more expensive to make. And the "Tacti-cool" factor is higher which adds to the price. The brightest LED's are around 80-100 lumens. Makes no difference whether it's handheld or weapon mounted.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by hankhan
Which is better? Why?

How bright are the small handheld LED lights - in lumens? How do they compare with the Streamlight/Surefire gun mounted lights in beam dispersion? cost?

You need both IMHO. If you have a light JUST mounted on your weapon, that means you will have to point your gun at everything you want to look at (bad idea).

If you JUST have a handheld light, how do you open doors and such and have the light ready?

There is no free lunch and there are compromises with either setup. This is why I suggest getting both.

Most of the SF X200 series and the SF L4/L2/U2 are all about the same Lumens output. The Pentagon L2 is also a good choice for a quality LED.


C4

www.GRTactical.com


http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/G19%20X200B%20CT.JPG

SF L2
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SF%20L2.jpg

[MrMurphy]

Weapon mounted lights are good if there's a known hostile. Handhelds are better for searching but harder to open doors etc.


In my case, anything I encounter at work is pretty much a known hostile, and pointing the weapon at them is just fine. I use a handheld 6P for now as I'm awaiting my weaponmount, and it does work, but juggling an M4 carbine, light, door, sometimes a hostile, etc... it's not easy.

When I do get the mount, I'll have another handheld for basic use. Besides, some days I carry an M9.

[happyguy]

I am decidedly non-tacticool. I just use a flashlight and I think that is all that 99% of the people need.

SOME of the truly tactical people will have a need for a weapon light, but not all.

If you have both, and are using both, how does this enable you to open doors any easier?

None of my guns have rails and I don't foresee purchasing one in the near future.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by happyguy
I am decidedly non-tacticool. I just use a flashlight and I think that is all that 99% of the people need.

SOME of the truly tactical people will have a need for a weapon light, but not all.

If you have both, and are using both, how does this enable you to open doors any easier?

None of my guns have rails and I don't foresee purchasing one in the near future.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

More flashlights = more capability (tools for the tool box if you will).

You do not use both lights at once. You pick the one that best serves your need at that time.


C4

[happyguy]

Certainly, I don't know your needs.

I do know my needs, and they are not served by a weapon mounted light on a handgun.

I am not a gear junkie.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

[kengps]

You're right that 99% of people don't need a Weapon mounted light. It would also be true that 99% of people don't need guns either. So why do you have a gun? I take it you would never use a shotgun at night? Pretty much useless without a mounted light. Of course you could follow the method suggested by Thalo and use a headlamp with your shotgun.

[happyguy]

Originally posted by kengps
You're right that 99% of people don't need a Weapon mounted light. It would also be true that 99% of people don't need guns either. So why do you have a gun? I take it you would never use a shotgun at night? Pretty much useless without a mounted light. Of course you could follow the method suggested by Thalo and use a headlamp with your shotgun.

Like I said, I'm not a gear junkie, and my needs are not served by weapons lights. I don't own or use a shotgun, nor do I own or use a carbine.

If you'd actually tried to read my post you would see that I was specifically addressing lights mounted on handguns. I think that excludes shotguns, don't you?

Regards,
Happyguy:)

[kengps]

Neither am I. I'm a minimalist. Have only what I need. a WML is something that works a lot better for me than going without one. A shotgun is the only weapon you can legally own that will reliably nuetralize a threat right here, right now.

[happyguy]

Even the mighty 12 ga. requires proper shot placement to be effective. And in confined quarters you will have to be as accurate with a shotgun as you would a rifle if you are to be effective.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by happyguy
Certainly, I don't know your needs.

I do know my needs, and they are not served by a weapon mounted light on a handgun.

I am not a gear junkie.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

If you use a gun for HD, then you need to have a light (whether it is mounted or not is your decision.

I know that this is a HG forum, but I would suggest that you use an AR or Shotgun for HD before a HG.


C4

[kengps]

Shot placement is king. But I'll take 9 holes and upto to 3500 lb/ft over 1 hole and 400-500 lb/ft any day or night.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by kengps
Neither am I. I'm a minimalist. Have only what I need. a WML is something that works a lot better for me than going without one. A shotgun is the only weapon you can legally own that will reliably nuetralize a threat right here, right now.

I would disagree that a shotgun is the best choice for HD. The reasons why it is not:

1. Wide pattern (cannot control shot placement).
2. Over penetration (could end up shooting your neighbors)
3. Low round count

A shotgun however is a better choice than a HG IMHO though.



C4

[happyguy]

Originally posted by c4igrant
If you use a gun for HD, then you need to have a light (whether it is mounted or not is your decision.

I know that this is a HG forum, but I would suggest that you use and AR or Shotgun for HD before a HG.


C4

I will email you my address and you can send me one. I'd like an M4 clone like the tacticool spec-ops guys carry, please. I am of the mind that shotguns are overrated for the typical home defense encounter.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

[happyguy]

C4igrant,

I just looked at your web site. Please tell me you don't use a carbine with all that stuff hanging on it!

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[happyguy]

Originally posted by hankhan
Which is better? Why?

How bright are the small handheld LED lights - in lumens? How do they compare with the Streamlight/Surefire gun mounted lights in beam dispersion? cost?

A hand held is more flexible, you can use it with any handgun, it rides well in a pocket, and if you use the right technique it eliminates the need for night sights.

However, it does require you to relinquish one hand to the light which means one less hand for the weapon and it makes using that hand for other tasks problematic. This is a bigger problem if you are using a weapon that requires two hands to employ.

Regards,
Happyguy:)

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by happyguy
C4igrant,

I just looked at your web site. Please tell me you don't use a carbine with all that stuff hanging on it!

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Actually, that pic is missing my PVS-14.;)

I will submit that folks buy gear believing that it will make them a better shooter. The problem is that they couldn't shoot in the first place.


C4

[betyourlife]

I have both (M3 and Z2, G2) and here is my take on it:

The mounted lights are overrated.

Why?

Try concealing one mounted on your gun or even on your person, IWB OR OWB. It is not only very uncomfortable, but also prints really bad.

If you carry one detached from the gun, and think you are going to attach it at the first sign of trouble, good luck.

They are best used on a dedicated HD pistol, or just put one on when you get home and put it where ever you usually put your gun.

Carrying one concealed is very hard.

Not only that, but here is another problem: when you need to use your light to work on your broken down car or whatever at 2am, you don't want the only person that stopped to help you to see a weird light that says GLOCK!! on it. You might as well put up a sign that says, stop here, die here!

And yet another problem: with it attached to your gun, everything you point your light at is exposed to the threat of NG.

With a handheld light, you can point the light at them without pointing your gun at them.

Also, whenever I am traveling through a dark area, I like to pull out my G2 or Z2 and light the area up to make sure it is not an ambush. I can't draw my weapon mounted light and do that unless I am a cop or soldier.

The mounted lights are really bulky to carry too. I hardly even use mine anymore outside of home. PM me, I might sell you mine...;)

[FreakyBig]

Originally posted by kengps
I take it you would never use a shotgun at night? Pretty much useless without a mounted light.

And why is a shotgun useless at night without a light? I dont know about your house, but mine is not a pitch black envoronment. If I know my wife is still in the bed and there is someone else in the house with us, I dont need to check the color of his eyes before pulling the trigger, nor do I need to give away my position or the element of surprise with a light or laser.

A light is only useful when you dont have the luxury of having the element of surprise.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by FreakyBig
And why is a shotgun useless at night without a light? I dont know about your house, but mine is not a pitch black envoronment. If I know my wife is still in the bed and there is someone else in the house with us, I dont need to check the color of his eyes before pulling the trigger, nor do I need to give away my position or the element of surprise with a light or laser.

A light is only useful when you dont have the luxury of having the element of surprise.

If you know your State laws (meaning you can shoot an unarmed intruder in your home) then I guess you don't need a light. It is however ALWAYS better to ID your target than not too.


C4

[dport]

Originally posted by c4igrant
I would disagree that a shotgun is the best choice for HD. The reasons why it is not:

1. Wide pattern (cannot control shot placement).
It requires some knowledge of how your gun reacts, true, but then again you also need to know sight offset when it comes to your carbine.
Old Painless and I had a very constructive discussion about this a few months back on arfcom. He was using a 12 pellet round, I was using a 9 pellet. The only real concern about pattern with an 8 or 9 pellet round indoors is the shotcup.


2. Over penetration (could end up shooting your neighbors)
Betweent the carbine and the shotgun, it's about a wash. Both are probably leaving your house should you miss. The only advantage is if you want to play with penetration you have a wide set of choices with marginal ammo, birdshot/varmit rounds, with both systems.

3. Low round count
I think you need to add slow reloads to this as well.

Other than that, +1, IMO.

[FreakyBig]

Originally posted by c4igrant
If you know your State laws (meaning you can shoot an unarmed intruder in your home) then I guess you don't need a light. It is however ALWAYS better to ID your target than not too.


C4

Laws are always a last concern in a self defense situation. I'd rather ID someone by pulling the ID from their wallet rather than letting them have the first shot.

[chevrofreak]

Originally posted by c4igrant
Most of the SF X200 series and the SF L4/L2/U2 are all about the same Lumens output. The Pentagon L2 is also a good choice for a quality LED.

The L2 and U2 are actually quite a bit brighter than the X200A. The U2 and L2 both put out around 100 true lumens, while the X200A is about 60. The X200B uses a Luxeon V like the L2 and U2 and has similar brightness.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by chevrofreak
The L2 and U2 are actually quite a bit brighter than the X200A. The U2 and L2 both put out around 100 true lumens, while the X200A is about 60. The X200B uses a Luxeon V like the L2 and U2 and has similar brightness.


This is true, the U2 and L2 have more output than the X200 series. The X200A however, has better throw than the U2 or L2 IMHO and the 20-30 Lumens difference between them is not very noticiable (at least not to me).



C4

[RayB]

From responsible articles printed, and soldier's e-mails forwarded, I've consistently read that weapon-mounted lights are getting a "thumbs up" from our forces in Iraq, where sweeping and clearing buildings is routine. I've read comparable comments from LEO sources. I figure these people rapidly find the value of any equipment offered, conceptual or practical.

ON HARDWARE...

We have both X200A and X200B SureFires for our G21 & G19. These are pricey little gizmos, but the construction and workmanship are remarkable and first-rate. What was said about the beam patterns and outputs is true. The attached pic shows the focus of both models... The wide disbursement X200B is the better choice for indoor use (it'll light most rooms wall-to-wall), while they X200A, for it's size, offers amazing range to acquire and ID a target--say, up to 250-feet, with good eyes.

As was alluded to, with SureFire you are paying for top-notch optics and mechanical integrity, with cost being a secondary consideration. As with watches, where you are mostly paying for the case, crystal & bracelet, the age-old question applies: Does it absolutely, positively have to work?

ON TACTICS...

It's true, as with most things, there is an inverse to consider. The problem with not firing until you see the whites of their eyes, is that they can see the whites of your eyes! :shocked: A misused tactical light is a beacon leading right to you.

I find it very effective to skip the X200's light off the ceiling, in a short burst, to glimpse an entire room. If it makes sense, you can then flood the perp briefly with light, and determine his status. If apparently unarmed, use the light to blind and target the intruder.

ON CHOICES...

In our home, weapon-mounted lights make sense, as it is never pitch black, and I know at a glance who should be here and who shouldn't. It is unlikely that I would pursue someone far outside the house. My free hand is good to open doors, etc., and if need be, use my cell phone.

Both our Glocks have SureFire X200s, LaserMax, and tritium sights installed. I like the independent and redundant systems.

--Ray