View Full Version : PPC - why are civilians banned?
Carlitos 04-18-2006, 12:20 Found a nearby PPC match - its just a small local match - but the website lists this rule:
"ELIGIBILITY: NRA Rule 2.4- Law Enforcement Officers, active or retired. Includes full time: law enforcement officers, Police Firearms Instructors, Transit Police, Penal Institution Guards, Industrial Police (to include bank Guards and Armored and Express Company Guards.) NRA membership is NOT required for approved matches, but is STRONGLY encouraged. You may join at the match."
Civilians banned from participation? What is with the NRA??!?!
Jim Watson 04-18-2006, 12:39 Because the targets are humanoid.
Because it is the Practical POLICE Course and American Commoners are not Authorized Personnel and haven't been through the Police Academy.
Phooey.
rledwards 04-18-2006, 14:42 The REAL reason is most likely the same as why more Police don't shoot IDPA. They want a chance to win and competing with the commoners is a sure way to get beat. I gets really embarrassing to some of our boys in blue when they see how poorly they shoot, compared to the civies.
--Lin
Originally posted by rledwards
The REAL reason is most likely the same as why more Police don't shoot IDPA. They want a chance to win and competing with the commoners is a sure way to get beat. I gets really embarrassing to some of our boys in blue when they see how poorly they shoot, compared to the civies.
--Lin
Sad but true
Why whine here? Go ask the NRA and post their reply here.
The REAL reason is most likely the same as why more Police don't shoot IDPA. They want a chance to win and competing with the commoners is a sure way to get beat. I gets really embarrassing to some of our boys in blue when they see how poorly they shoot, compared to the civies.
I think rledwards is right. My future son-in-law is a LEO in South Floida. Last time we went to the range I smoked is *ss. said it was too much coffee:)
My wife can out shoot all of the guys and gals on the Hoover PD.
WellArmedSheep 04-19-2006, 08:49 Where do you get to shoot with Hoover officers?
Personally, I guess I don’t have too much of a problem with some shooting matches being closed to the general public. I can see why most police and military folks like having their private “clubs”. Law enforcement is a subculture in this country. But that’s a whole ‘nother thread. The thing that still irks me is Glock not allowing the general public to attend their official armorer and training courses. I know they claim that the demand for the courses is so great that they can only allow law enforcement personnel access. I think Glock is just placating the law enforcement community.
Obviously you guys just want to bash cops. As was previously posted, go ask the NRA.
BTW, some of the best pistol shooters on the planet are LEOs and that's common knowledge. Consider the proportion of USPSA Grand Masters who are LEOs in relation to the number of members.
If you want to compare, let's compare apples to apples. Compare LEOs who are shooting enthusiasts to their counter part in the general population. Then compare LEOs who are not shooting enthusiasts to their counter part in the general population. :soap:
Jim Watson 04-19-2006, 11:49 What, you think I make this stuff up?
The NRA does not approve of American Commoners shooting at humanoid targets, they fear it hurts their image of a peaceful sport.
Originally posted by rledwards
The REAL reason is most likely the same as why more Police don't shoot IDPA. They want a chance to win and competing with the commoners is a sure way to get beat. I gets really embarrassing to some of our boys in blue when they see how poorly they shoot, compared to the civies.
--Lin
From somebody who has spent a lot of time trying to get police friends and family members to compete, I can say for sure you hit that nail on the head, Lin.
rhino465 04-19-2006, 15:25 Originally posted by Ankeny
Obviously you guys just want to bash cops.
You're off base on that one, Ankster. You're assuming facts not in evidence.
In any case, "civilians" are not banned from NRA's PPC matches. Only civilians who do not have badges are banned. The vast majority of PPC participants are civilian law enforcement people.
It's a dying sport in any case. NRA seems either content on letting it die, or they wish for it to die. They're doing similar things to NRA Action Pistol, but at least it is open to non-LEOs.
In fact, if you want to shoot PPC, but you're among the unwashed masses without badges, you should give Action Pistol a try. It's also primarily accuracy-based, but it's more challenging and a lot more fun. The local clubs that still offer action pistol could really use more participants too.
You're off base on that one, Ankster. You're assuming facts not in evidence.
Am not, am not, so there. I am specifically addressing posters who are claiming PPC is restricted to cops because the fuzz can't shoot straight and they don't want John Q. Public thumping on their egos. That's just so much hog wash.
FWIW, I was present at a conversation about NRA approved hand gun competitions with Harlan Carter back in the old days. I don't recall anything about handgun proficiency or the lack of it being mentioned.
Jim Watson:
I wasn't directing my rampage toward you at all. It just so happens Harlan Carter told me pretty much the same thing you posted.
IMO about the only competition the NRA is interested in is shot at Camp Perry.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the rules change to allow non LEO to shoot? You can not hold a classification so you must shoot open. At least that is what I think I read on the crystal clear NRA website. Which brings up another whole thread. Who do they get to do their site?
Originally posted by Ankeny
Am not, am not, so there. I am specifically addressing posters who are claiming PPC is restricted to cops because the fuzz can't shoot straight and they don't want John Q. Public thumping on their egos. That's just so much hog wash.
Every one of us that shoots any kind of competition knows 2 things - very few police officers ever show up, especially considering the number of gun-guys that are police officers, and very few of those do well in competition, so that we are used to seeing them show up once and not come back. It's not a great mystery and I'm sure we've all seen it.
Mark L Miller 04-20-2006, 09:36 Originally posted by Bren
Every one of us that shoots any kind of competition knows 2 things - very few police officers ever show up, especially considering the number of gun-guys that are police officers, and very few of those do well in competition, so that we are used to seeing them show up once and not come back. It's not a great mystery and I'm sure we've all seen it.
I've found that is true but the ones that keep coming back, now those guys are a force to contend with! There is a group of leo guys that come from the Houston area & they can sure kick butte! There is not a nicer group of guys to shoot with, either. They aren't GM's but then again, neither am I! I would squad with them anyday if given the chance. They have an airline pilot shoots with them as well. No boxcutter is gonna intimidate that guy! MLM
Every one of us that shoots any kind of competition knows 2 things - very few police officers ever show up, especially considering the number of gun-guys that are police officers, and very few of those do well in competition, so that we are used to seeing them show up once and not come back.
That might be true where you live, but it's certainly not true where I shoot. And yes, I have been shooting a bit of competition for many years in several disciplines. FWIW, some of the better shooters in our IPSC clubs, and in our closest neighbor IPSC club are LEO's or former LEO's. BTW, there are a lot of USPSA Grand Masters that carry a badge.
In my experience, the guys that show up and don't come back are the ones with fragile egos. Usually they are folks who have shot for a number of years and they let their alligator mouths out run their canary butts. It's a shame they don't continue with the sport. I wish all new shooters would realize their ability level has nothing to do with them being more than welcome to shoot.
Jim Watson 04-20-2006, 18:42 A startup IDPA club led by the PD firearms instructor opened up on the police range in a city just at my outside limit of travel.
The first shoot, there were a substantial number of cops watching. The second shoot, most of them shot. They all tried hard and the best of the patrol cops scored nearly as well as my club's resident teenybopper, 13 yr old female.
They were handicapped, though. Shooting in uniform rig, the better cops actually shot pretty well as long as their first magazine lasted. But when it came time to reload out of those horizontal velcro flap patrol car mag pouches, they needed a substantial timeout that neither the rules nor the crooks allow for.
High magazine capacity is a substantial advantage especially if you carry your reload ammo in a pouch chosen for all-day comfort instead of easy access.
rhino465 04-20-2006, 19:05 It's surprising how many cops carry their reloads on their strong side horizontally, just to the side of their belt buckle. A rare few can reload with decent speed from that configuration, but it's in spite of it, not because (as most of us realize). Trying to get them to put their spares on their weak side, vertically, is like pulling teeth.
Since we are roaming well away from the original topic . . .
I think there are some valid points here. However, I'll point out that a group of cops reflect society as a whole. In my department, maybe 7-8% are what I would call shooters (those who actually practice and do well, training or in a competitive environment). The rest view the pistol and rifle as a tool, not that dissimilar from a carpenter and his/her hammer. Their scores and attitude show it. Compete? Phftttttt. Some would rather spend the time and money tooling around the lake on a boat or watch their jumbo megatron plasma screen TV rather than practice. However, the number absolutely reflect the makeup of the population in the Seattle metro area. I would be surprised if there were more than 3-4% of the population of the area that actively competed in handgun and rifle comps. Heck, I'd be surprised if there were more than 15% of the population that actually (legitimately) owned a firearm of any kind.
From time to time at the range I train at, I will invite competitors and "outsiders" I know to join in the training. It is amusing and sobering when they do better than those I am training. I usually end up that learning lesson with the remark "Now, wouldn't it be nice to have this gun owner backing you up when no one else can?"
Steve Koski 04-21-2006, 00:36 I had a guy tell me once he was the best shooter in his local PD force. I about laughted myself silly.
I think he was trying to impress me.
rhino465 04-21-2006, 06:15 I suppose the criticism of the "average" police officer's shooting skills (or lack thereof) is affected by the nature of the career they chose. While the police have no obligation to protect any individual, they do have obligations to enforce the law, which can put them in situations that a private citizen can (and should) avoid. They (usually) carry a firearm openly as a part of their uniform to protect themselves while engaged in those duties. It just makes good sense that they would either possess adequate skills in the use of that tool, or take the measures necessary to develop them. If for no other reason, than because they are highly visible targets. When someone in that position either defies that bit of common sense logic, it leads to ... curiosity and discussions as to the nature of their skills. It also begs the question as to what other skills might be underdeveloped, but that's a whole new ball o' wax.
Now, while the same criticisms may be entirely valid for a private citizen (who is responsible for his own safety and should be able to take measures to secure it when the need arises), they are 1) far more numerous, 2) far less obvious/visible, and 3) held to less scrutiny because of 1) and 2) and because they have not made the choice to be obligated to enforce the law (and accept the consequences related to that choice).
We rightly expect someone whose uniform includes a firearm to be able to use it safely and effectively. I'd actually be happy if more (all) of them (police) were demonstratably cognizent of firearms-related safety. ;)
So would I Rhino. The hue and cry you will hear from LE firearms instructors usually revolves around not enough training time to a lack of interest. You cannot beat the enthusiasm to train if it doesn't extend from the top down.
Wanna cry? We contract with a local range for training. As part of that training, officers can use the indoor range for training at no cost to them. We also offer 50 rounds a month of training ammunition. Care to guess how many names I see on the range log? Care to guess how many actually ask for the ammo to train? I had one member of my department that was squirreling away training ammo. When I confronted him, he had over 400 rounds put away with no apparent intent to use it.
That is how it goes sometimes.
So, in the end, if I can get some officer interested in a cop only comp, then I will push him/her that way with the hopes they will like it enough to train more and get involved in other areas such as IDPA, TSA, etc. If you as Joe Citizen can encourage your local peace officers in a positive way to join you or your club, you will be better off. Don't belittle, don't laugh, don't brag, just go out, support and have fun with them. You may find that a perceived fragile ego may change into a positive and supporting member.
You can't really use the percentage of the population comparison to the percentage of LEO GM's either. How many of the average Joe's actually have a handgun as their daily working tools? I would expect a carpenter to frame circles around me, a nurse to kick my butt in bandaging wounds, and a forklift opperator to embarrass me if I went to his job and challenged him. The reason is these people have mastered the use of the tools for their job and they use them daily. Unfortunately many LEO's don't think of their handgun like this, but want the public to think they do. I wish more would attend. I've offered to let local LEO shoot for half price as an incentive, but only a few fed's from the training center show up. And that group kicks butt majorly and I enjoy shooting with them.
Have any of you stopped to consider maybe it is a regional thing? I have assited in training with several of our local enforcement agencies. Our regional Game and Fish guys could field one hell of a good 3-Gun team. The same is true of our regional Hostage Rescue Team. Furthermore, the vast majority of our deputies out in the county do just peachy keen at the IDPA type scenarios that I have put them through. I am guessing it's because the guys I work with come from a shooting back ground and a shooting culture.
On the flip side, I regularly shoot with several agency trainers and believe me they are really frustrated by declining standards, new recruits who have never even handled a firearm, apathetic trainees who value a ticket book and a pen over their firearms, etc. Yes, your points are valid and the results are probably very visible where you live. All I am saying is painting the entire LEO community with such a wide paintbrush (cops can't shoot) is unreasonable.
fwiw , there are at least 5 LEO's (that I am aware of) in the top 12 finishers last night at our little steel match.
Arizona is pretty fortunate in having top competitors serve their community , imo.
MP
Originally posted by Ankeny
Yes, your points are valid and the results are probably very visible where you live. All I am saying is painting the entire LEO community with such a wide paintbrush (cops can't shoot) is unreasonable. [/B]
I'm not trying to say it's ALL LEO's, but it's like in my profession when they say all teachers are over paid for the short hours they work, and none of them teach. Just look at the low test scores. You become guilty by assotiation. (the old saying about walking a mile in someone elses shoes comes to mind)
I do think it's a regional thing. Those midwest park service people I know were born with a gun in their hands. And it shows. I hear the trainers talk about how they lower the score to qualify or adjust the course to raise the scores. All so nobody's feelins get hurt. Bad guys don't care about your feelings is all I can think of when I hear this.
Steve Koski 04-21-2006, 18:18 Originally posted by MarkP
...there are at least 5 LEO's (that I am aware of) in the top 12 finishers last night at our little steel match.
There are bound to be a couple decent LEO shooters in every large area. The problem isn't the few that care and are good, it's the 95+% who can't draw and fire in under 4 seconds, don't know what ammo they're carrying, can't tell you the model of the gun on their belt, haven't fired a round outside of semi-annual qualification in five years, etc.
When the occasional "don't gove a damn cops" show up at a match, it is truly scary. In the back of my mind I'm thinking "If I'm ever in a tight spot, I really hope you're not on duty, you're just as likely to shoot me as the bad guy." The "shooter-cops" come back to future matches, fit in, and are great guys. It's the non-shooters that give you the willies.
The best thing that could happen (for everyone) is for these guys to have fun and come back. Unfortunately it rarely happens.
I'm really of the opinion there's at least 10 "don't give a damn cops" to every 1 "shooter-cops." Probably more like 20 or 50 to 1. It's probably very similar to the ratio of non-LEO's that are proficient with a firearm. Most gun owners are just gun owners, not shooters. Have you watched the average guy show up with his handgun at the public range? Not a good average.
Koski
There is a common thread with LE shooters. They shoot a lot of hostages.
I do get a chuckle when some of them are at our range and see my wife shoot. You can see the testosterone drain from their bodies.
I have even offered to pay their match fee just to get them shooting.
What is really scary is when I watched a new LE female getting ready for qualification. At 15 yds she was putting half of her shots three feet below the target.
I had much rather have some of my IDPA buds covering my 6 than any of the LE shooters.
I worked with three Depts. in Atlanta. I helped the LE guys that were interested try and improve their shooting skills. Of the three Depts. there were only 2 guys that I would trust to help me if I got in a jam.
BTW most Qualification COFs are designed to pass LEs not fail them. They are easy to the absurd.
Originally posted by Bren
Every one of us that shoots any kind of competition knows 2 things - very few police officers ever show up, especially considering the number of gun-guys that are police officers, and very few of those do well in competition, so that we are used to seeing them show up once and not come back. It's not a great mystery and I'm sure we've all seen it.
Ok, I just have to ask, how would you know?
Do you expect cops to show up in uniform and write tickets at the IPSC match? I don't know how big the matched are where you shoot, but around here you'd never know who you were squaded up with.
Again, solid points here. However, to you citizens with concerns about cops and their shooting skills, what are YOU doing about it? Why are you sitting on an internet thread crying about the lack of (or perceived lack of) skills? Get on a public safety commision (or similar), talk to the CLEO for your agency, demand better standards. Create solid partnerships with your agencies and their firearms instructors. Until enough people do that, you will continue to see lip service about skills (and see the results of non "shooter" peace officers who wander into your competition).
But most of all, understand this: you will never have a full department of "shooters." Never. Just the same for citizens who own guns (I've met a few on the range and on the street who give cognizant gun owners like us a very bad name and image). Again, only a small minority of the 40+ million gun owners in teh US are what anyone of us would realistically call "shooters," let alone shooting competitively on a frequent basis. The best you can hope for is that you have a CLEO who will demand training to exceed case law and hopefully embrace ANY shooting competiton or discipline as a tool in ADDITION to training.
Meanwhile, the PPC is cop oriented. It will remain that way for as long as I can tell. If that chafes you, then go to the NRA and demand a citizen only type course.
"What are you doing about it", good question. I did not charge the LE guys and gals anything for their lessons. Call it "community service" or whatever. I contacted the Hoover PD on more than one occasion to offer my help now that we live here. No response. It must me some kind of mis-guided macho thing. It's like they have this little "Macho Club" they belong to. In their club they have convinced thenselves they are good shooters.
Originally posted by Ankeny
Have any of you stopped to consider maybe it is a regional thing? I have assited in training with several of our local enforcement agencies. Our regional Game and Fish guys could field one hell of a good 3-Gun team. The same is true of our regional Hostage Rescue Team. Furthermore, the vast majority of our deputies out in the county do just peachy keen at the IDPA type scenarios that I have put them through. I am guessing it's because the guys I work with come from a shooting back ground and a shooting culture.
Kentucky oficers come from a shooting background too, but you're still talking about seeing them shoot in a law enforcement only context. As an example, there is a department I won't name that recently came in near the top in a world invitational swat competition (1st place was GSG 9 from Germany) that involved a lot of shooting, including basic 3-gun competition, according to the web site describing the match. Before that they had won regional competitions to advance to that level. To practice for the SWAT matches, they came to our local club 3-gun match twice - we are mostly local-only D/C/U shooters, with 1 master and 1 or 2 A's out of about 30-40 shooters at most matches. Across the board, pretty much the whole team was beaten by nearly every civilian shooting. They went on to win in the LEO competitions, but the USPSA shooters are still talking about how surprisingly bad they were in the local 3-gun.
Originally posted by GackMan
Ok, I just have to ask, how would you know?
Do you expect cops to show up in uniform and write tickets at the IPSC match? I don't know how big the matched are where you shoot, but around here you'd never know who you were squaded up with.
I've only seen swat guys shooting as a team compete in uniform, but I know pretty much everybody that shoots at our club and a whole lot of the police who might come out. Everybody knows who is law enforcement and who isn't, including new shooters. In addition, having been one for several years, I think police officers are fairly obvious and a lot of them drive their cruisers to the matches. I have also had the chance to RO many LEO shooters (and even a couple of people who instructed me at the academy) in GSSF matches where they register as LEO. We have had all sorts of officers from probation & parole and local SWAT to federal air marshals - of the many I have seen, 1 P&P officer is a regular in IDPA and 2 local department officers are regulars in USPSA; the rest shot one match, placed from the top quarter to the bottom, and didn't come back.
I work in the headquarters of the state agency that oversees all law enforcement in our state to one degree or another (state police, corrections, vehicle enforcement, etc. work for us, as does criminal justice training, which trains and regulates everybody else). I teach classes to groups ranging from basic trainees in corrections and state police to swat/srt/cert teams, experienced officers, firearms instructors, command staff, etc. I try to talk people into competing quite a bit and very few ever do. Of the ones who take me up on it, the performances have ranged from very good to people I was embarrassed for. Even the good ones usually don't come back - best I can tell it's because they expect to win the first time. They come from being the best shot they've seen on the range to a range where a bunch of old fat guys and a few women beat them without breaking a sweat.
When I started shooting IDPA I was a former police firearms instructor and easily the best shot in the 2 departments I had worked for - it was an off day if I ever scored less than 95% on a qualification course. That put me at a low marksman level for IDPA and most of the other local shooters beat me at first. Now I'm more like top 5 or 6 shooters overall in most local matches - I shot a law enforcement competition last year and easily won the individual trophy, then won the same course again for the "top gun" trophy against people who had been practicing for this all year, but I still can't get above the middle overall (including open shooters, etc.) in our local USPSA matches.
Of course the problem isn't the shooting skill, but the mental attitude toward it. It seems to me that a person who carries a gun and goes into "harm's way" for a living should react to finding out lots of people can outshoot him by trying to learn to outshoot those people. This seems even more true when the LEO is also a gun nut like us, as many are. Instead, most of them seem inclined to just give up. Some do stay and become great shooters, most don't.
I am employed in a service oriented capacity involving local and state law enforcement, and in such I get to meet a fair ammount of officers. From a gun enthusiasts point of view I am saddened or dismayed by the ammount of officers I meet that either a) don't know what type of sidearm they are carrying and b) have no idea of the caliber. I have two that give me part of their training ammo they don't use. I'm not proud of that, but then again I'm not turning down free ammo either. One officer, a younger one probably new to the job and still excited about it, was trying to figure out a way to get me onto their informal shooting team to help boost their scores in the annual informal cop vs. cop shootout in that particular county because he was p.o.-ed that his team got their butts beat so badly the last time.
Now in local IDPA we have two officers that show up to a decent ammount of matches, and both are good, and both are sharpshooter class in CDP division. Now on the other hand, in USPSA we have a local swat team leader who is a master class shooter in limited division, and who will fairly regularly win the whole match.
Now, to be totally fair, in both USPSA and IDPA, once each, we've had a new LEO show up, and generally let it be known that they carried a gun for a living and expected to "clean up" at the match because of so. Both promptly got they butts handed to them in their classes. "Hmmm. My sights must be off, I aced my last qualification.":upeyes:
rhino465 04-22-2006, 19:38 Originally posted by Bren
Across the board, pretty much the whole team was beaten by nearly every civilian shooting. They went on to win in the LEO competitions, but the USPSA shooters are still talking about how surprisingly bad they were in the local 3-gun.
Yeah, the Fomeister shared similar information with me once. :supergrin:
Sounds to me like the problem is the standards where you guys live. For instance, take this quote: it's the 95+% who can't draw and fire in under 4 seconds Obviously, that's just for the purpose of dicussion and it's untrue, well it's untrue around here. The very first stage for Wyoming peace officers is to draw and fire one round COM in one second on a turning target. For agencies that don't have turning targets, the time is increased to two seconds with an electronic timer, none of the stop watch bull.
To the best of my knowledge, 95% of the guys in our local agencies have no problem making that standard. At first, guys with Level III holsters struggled. But it's amazing how fast they got when told to either make the grade or seek employment elsewhere. Raise the standards to a realistic, but attainable level, then properly fund the program and the problem will be solved. Too bad it isn't that simple.
skorpio:
I came in last at my first USPSA match and it didn't have as much to do with my ability as it did my lack of understanding of points per second. How did you do at your first match?
Steve Koski 04-22-2006, 21:27 Originally posted by skorpio
"Hmmm. My sights must be off, I aced my last qualification.":upeyes: LOL ! ! !
I shot a police qualification course a few years back. Cleaned it first try. It was really easy - like draw and fire 3 rounds at the man sized target from 7 yards in TEN SECONDS.
Steve Koski 04-22-2006, 21:30 Originally posted by Ankeny
The very first stage for Wyoming peace officers is to draw and fire one round COM in one second on a turning target. Huh?
It's not common for "good" shooters to draw from "normal" holsters and get the first shot on target in under a second. I hardly think even the best shooter could do it from a duty rig.
Something else I thought about today while I was at the range... most cops work Saturdays. I suspect it is hard to chase a hobby like IPSC or IDPA when you can't actually go to any of the matches.
Steve Koski 04-22-2006, 23:11 Originally posted by GackMan
Something else I thought about today while I was at the range... most cops work Saturdays. I suspect it is hard to chase a hobby like IPSC or IDPA when you can't actually go to any of the matches.
Not really. Cops bid for days off (that I'm familiar with). The more senior, the more likely you are to get your choice of days off. Many cops get Saturdays off.
50% of them anyway... but the more aggressive ones, the more serious ones, the ones who are probably the better shooters who practice on their own time generally want to work on Saturdays.
I'm sure on some other internet board there are a bunch of cops wondering why all the non-LEOs they golf with suck at it.
Edit to add: to bring this back to the original topic, no cops I know under the age of 50 shoot PPC. All the gun gomer cops shoot IPSC if they play any games off duty.
By the way, when I say I try to encourage officers to shoot competition, I'm serious - it isn't just a lead-in to a "cops can't shoot" comment. I was a police officer and now work in connection with multiple LEO agencies. My brother and cousin are state troopers; both have been involved in duty shootings. My father is a retired state trooper and another cousin is a city officer and I have lots of friends who are police officers. I seriously would like to convince more of them to build their skills, but even the "this will make you next qualification really easy" argument doesn't work on most of them.
Originally posted by GackMan
Something else I thought about today while I was at the range... most cops work Saturdays. I suspect it is hard to chase a hobby like IPSC or IDPA when you can't actually go to any of the matches.
Actually, most medium-large departments work 24/7, so any particular officer is no more likely to work a Saturday day shift than any other shift. Since day shifts disproportionately go to commanders, detectives, etc., (Saturdays maybe to more non-command oldtimers) and, since they tend to put more people on in the evening-night shift, as opposed to days or graveyards, most of your younger officers should be available for a Saturday morning match.
I hardly think even the best shooter could do it from a duty rig. Turning targets. The exposure is one second.
DaleGribble 04-25-2006, 01:16 Originally posted by rledwards
The REAL reason is most likely the same as why more Police don't shoot IDPA. They want a chance to win and competing with the commoners is a sure way to get beat. I gets really embarrassing to some of our boys in blue when they see how poorly they shoot, compared to the civies.
--Lin
I don't know about the league Carlito is trying to shoot in but in the SC PPC league I used to shoot in the competition was incredibly tough and the shooters were top notch. 1480 and up were common in the 1500 matches.
Here's some numbers to compare.
At the SC 2005 Regional Phil Strader shot a 1488 in the 1500 match. That's a damn good score for a damn good shooter.
At the Governers Twenty Match twenty one shooters participated, three shot below 1480 while the other 18 shot a 1480 or higher.
Anyway, it's been my experience that most cops aren't shooters, but the ones that are rank equally up there with there civilain counter parts.
Plus you also have to consider the fact that the guys that take PPC seriously spend a lot of time and money on equipment and practice. They aren't showing up to shoot Glock 22's just to qualify.
rhino465 04-25-2006, 12:06 Originally posted by Ankeny
Turning targets. The exposure is one second.
What am I missing here? Unless they can start drawing before the target presents itself, how can ALL of them do it in one second?
I couldn't do it, even from my trusty Blade-Tech dropped/offset, unless I didn't use my sights, and then it would be pushing it to my limits. I'm no speed demon, but I doubt if I am slower than every single cop where you live.
bill rayburn 04-25-2006, 19:17 Everyone is welcome at the local ppc competition in fact the local tactical competition ( kinda like IDPA ) reccomends new shooters to start there shooting from the holster.
Bill
Steve Koski 04-25-2006, 20:29 Originally posted by rhino465
What am I missing here? Unless they can start drawing before the target presents itself, how can ALL of them do it in one second?
I couldn't do it, even from my trusty Blade-Tech dropped/offset, unless I didn't use my sights, and then it would be pushing it to my limits. I'm no speed demon, but I doubt if I am slower than every single cop where you live.
There must be at least a second of "slack time" where the target starts to move but isn't fully exposed yet, and the shooter draws at the first motion.
another okie 04-26-2006, 10:09 He's saying the target is exposed for one second, not that the shooter draws and shoots in one second. At least I think that's what he's saying.
rhino465 04-26-2006, 12:30 Ah, okay. That's different, then. Never mind!
(was it Emily Latilla or Roseanne Roseannadanna who said that on SNL?)
Taipei Personality 04-26-2006, 13:29 Originally posted by rhino465
Ah, okay. That's different, then. Never mind!
(was it Emily Latilla or Roseanne Roseannadanna who said that on SNL?)
Emily, especially when referring to violins on TV . . .
reconvic 04-26-2006, 16:42 I won't bash the LEO's myself because I feel they are doing there job.
Seems alot of people bash them yet when they need help they call the police?
I am not a LEO , but have many friends that are and we all shoot together. Their jobs are high stress at all times , I just want to show some repect. My 2 cents
Terminator 04-26-2006, 23:54 Dalegribble touched on a point id like to mention, but also want to point out that Phil Strader is the measuring stick for the rest of the LEO's when it comes to competition shooting. He is legitimately one of the best shooters in the world period!
The reason the non-LE is not allowed to compete in large "Sanctioned" PPC matches is because its the rules. Easy as that. Nobody is picking on you. Just the rules. Same reason you cant shoot your 1911 or Sig at a GSSF match.
Around here the PPC league lets anyone shoot. Sanctioned matches however, you must be LE. I am Military and I am not allowed to play, but I dont get my panties in a bunch over it.
Life is too short to sweat small stuff.
rhino465 04-28-2006, 07:36 I don't believe anyone was contesting the literal content of the rules. I believe the topic was inspired by wanting to know why the rule excluding private citizens exists.
It's a legitimate question. Just try to throw a match and specify "no LEOs" in the rules and see what happens.
Carlitos 05-02-2006, 16:35 Originally posted by rhino465
I don't believe anyone was contesting the literal content of the rules. I believe the topic was inspired by wanting to know why the rule excluding private citizens exists.
It's a legitimate question. Just try to throw a match and specify "no LEOs" in the rules and see what happens.
Exactly! Thanks for bringing this back on topic Rhino.
To clarify, HERE IS THE NRA RULE:
"ELIGIBILITY: NRA Rule 2.4- Law Enforcement Officers, active or retired. Includes full time: law enforcement officers, Police Firearms Instructors, Transit Police, Penal Institution Guards, Industrial Police (to include bank Guards and Armored and Express Company Guards.) NRA membership is NOT required for approved matches, but is STRONGLY encouraged. You may join at the match."
-NRA = NATIONAL rifle association. To those who pointed out that there are a few local clubs that might not follow the ban on civilians, thanks. However, there are still 2 problems:
1) Those clubs are not following the NATIONAL rules and
2) They are not around here. Anyway, this is the net & it covers the whole USA. This is way I see it,
-the NRA should NOT ban civilian NRA members from participating in an NRA sponsored competition that WE - THE CIVILIAN NRA MEMBERS PAY TO SUPPORT. I guess I'd like to know why. Looked around their website - no answer. There is an e-mail address I found & they did not e-mail me back.
Since they don't seem interested in telling me the answer, can anyone answer the question on their behalf?
Thanks,
C.
PS - I support all LEOs who want to participate in any sort of handgun competition since I believe it only helps improve their skill with a handgun.
We just told you the answer - everybody agrees that it's a good thing to have the police compete, since it builds and maintains skills, but the police aversion to competing with civilians is very well known in the shooting community. I have little doubt that, because of that, somebody in law enforcement or NRA decided that police needed their own type of competition that would involve the skills they use and which they would participate in because it is LE only.
I believe it was just last year when they changed to rules to allow military policemen to shoot (other military, i.e., infantry/artillery, still can't).
Originally posted by Bren
We just told you the answer - everybody agrees that it's a good thing to have the police compete, since it builds and maintains skills, but the police aversion to competing with civilians is very well known in the shooting community. I have little doubt that, because of that, somebody in law enforcement or NRA decided that police needed their own type of competition that would involve the skills they use and which they would participate in because it is LE only.
I believe it was just last year when they changed to rules to allow military policemen to shoot (other military, i.e., infantry/artillery, still can't).
I would bet it was back in the day when it was created...
I’d bet it was invented by some dinosaurs at the NRA a million years ago and with “combat” in the title and the door has been closed ever since.
Since the NRA seems to be so spooked about training or advocating any sort of realistic skill - case in point: has anyone see the Personal Protection Outside the Home syllabus yet?
Carlitos 05-04-2006, 10:20 Gackman wrote: "Since the NRA seems to be so spooked about training or advocating any sort of realistic skill - case in point: has anyone see the Personal Protection Outside the Home syllabus yet?"
Good point.
And, it is relevant to the topic of NRA policy RE: civilians and guns.
Why does the NRA not support - or at best remain "neutral" on the topic of carrying concealed weapons/CCW?
Why would I claim that they are neutral on the issue? Because, the only "personal protection" course they offer is IN THE HOME. Outside of the home (ie CCW) there is no NRA class or NRA support that I can find. Am I wrong here?
The majority of states are now SHALL ISSUE states and something like 48 out of 50 have some sort of Concealed Carry permit (though many restrict these rights).
I would also like to know why the NRA is not heading up this important Second Amendment issue for us?
Yes I support the NRA and yes I know they protect our interests in many ways. But I also know that in 2 areas (PPC for Citizens and Civilian CCW) they could do a lot better & I'd like to know why they act this way? Maybe this deserves its own thread.
Back to the discussion: PPC for civilians.
Bullzye22 05-06-2006, 14:40 I think a big reason LEOs don't participate in competition is training issues. We have to follow policies. I have to wear my mags horizontal, strong side, in front of my holster. I have to use a specified holster (Safariland 295). I'm trained on how to do a "tactical" reload differently than the IDPA rule book. I have to "tap, rack, re-access", not "tap, rack, bang"... etc.
It is very frustrating to practice for hours and hours and thousands of repetitions to be a good competitive shooter following NRA or IDPA or IPSC rules when the rules you have to live by EVERY day are different.
When the **** hits the fan, your gonna do what you train, and that better be the department policy, not the IDPA rule book, cuz the dept lawyer isn't gonna defend IDPA rules in court. He will, however, defend the fact that you followed dept policy.
I shoot IDPA and I will not allow myself to be competative. I take a 3 second procedural on every reload cuz on the street, I'm not gonna retain my magazine. I'm strippin it and reloading and heading for cover and could give a rats ass where my magazine went. To be competative, I'd have to do things the IDPA way, and that isn't the way it's gonna go down in the street.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a better shooter and have a learned a lot by participating. Still, I'll always have my ass handed to me by the 13 year old girls who follow the rules, which is much better than having it handed to me by the defense attorney of the guy I just shot cuz I didn't follow dept training and policy.
Just my $.02.
As an aside, I NEVER said in any of that that I agreed with or liked some of the dept's training or polocies. I think the IDPA way is in many cases better, I just don't have that luxury. I can say with certaintly, that when the lead starts flyin, you WILL do what you've trained to do, no matter how good or how bad that training was.
LiberalHater 05-07-2006, 15:01 I think everyone is reading too much into the reason for the rule. I think it is simple, when it was formed, the NRA probably believed one or more of a couple of things:
1. Police have more marksmanship training than the average shooter, keep them seperate to keep it fair for all, you know, put apples with apples.
2. Their aim was to create a division of competition for LEO's. A place to see who was the "top cop" shooter.
To say, why can't I shoot in a LEO only match is like saying why can't my daughter join the boy scouts. Just not created for that. If you like the course of fire, duplicate it at your club, open it up for civilians and then petition the NRA to create a civilian division in addition to the LEO division.
And as far as creating a match that excludes LEO's, we had one right here in the Midwest, the Ottawa KS Special Olympics Benefit match used to do something similar. LEO's were forced to shoot in their own category and could not shoot with civilians.
I think the other things stated about cops not shooting with civilians for all the different reasons has grown out of the simple design of #1 and #2 I stated above.
I am a 16 year LEO with a medium size department outside of Kansas City, MO and I can tell you that I have made plenty of calls on the midnight shift responding to the homes of "gun guys" who called me to investigate the noise in the basement. So for all the posters who are bragging that can outshoot the cops and how pathetic we are, that is only half the equation. Putting bullets on target must be coupled with the WILL and courage to enter the dark basement. I would be glad to take any of the good folks on this board (from whom I have learned plenty from in the reloading forum) and put you in a force on force exercise with simunitions in a low light exercise and have you peeing down you leg. There was a quote long ago from a name that escapes me about...."I have found many men who are able, but few are willing, and they will hesitate...." someone help me with this quote if you know it.
Lib
Steve Koski 05-07-2006, 15:38 Originally posted by Bullzye22
I think a big reason LEOs don't participate in competition is training issues. We have to follow policies. I have to wear my mags horizontal, strong side, in front of my holster. I have to use a specified holster (Safariland 295). I'm trained on how to do a "tactical" reload differently than the IDPA rule book. I have to "tap, rack, re-access", not "tap, rack, bang"... etc. That's a bunch of crap and a non-starter excuse.
Every match I've ever been to will allow LEO's to use duty weapons and duty procedures. You might not win, but you'll be following the same procedures you use on duty, and gaining more experience and skill.
Bullzye22 05-07-2006, 16:51 Originally posted by Steve Koski
That's a bunch of crap and a non-starter excuse.
Every match I've ever been to will allow LEO's to use duty weapons and duty procedures. You might not win, but you'll be following the same procedures you use on duty, and gaining more experience and skill.
WOW! Flame on...
If you actually read the post, I stated that I do shoot and I do take the procedural hit for dropping my loaded mags. I didn't say they wouldn't let me, I said to be competative I'd have to play by their rules and their rules are not the same as mine. I even stated [QUOTE]Don't get me wrong, I'm a better shooter and have a learned a lot by participating. [/QOUTE].
Now take a deep breath and actaully read the post this time. And if your gonna quote me, don't pull one piece of a paragraph out of context to appease your hostility.
Bullzye22 05-07-2006, 17:05 Originally posted by Steve Koski
Huh?
It's not common for "good" shooters to draw from "normal" holsters and get the first shot on target in under a second. I hardly think even the best shooter could do it from a duty rig.
I don't know what you'd consider common but our "average" officer can draw and fire in about 1.2 seconds. There is a 1.5 second "goal" set to qualify (it's not enforced). Our better officers routinely do better then 1 second. This is starting from the interview position and using a Safariland 295 (lvl 2) holster. We are shooting poppers from 4yds so it's obvious if you miss, it doesn't fall. My personal best is .85 seconds but I can consistently get between .95 and 1.1 and I don't consider myself a "good" shooter, so it's very doable.
And just for your benefit.... I contribute my ability to shoot that time to the practice and lessons learned while shooting IDPA matches. ;)
Now, what any of this has to do with the question posed in this thread.....:dunno:
Steve Koski 05-07-2006, 17:16 What timing equipment are you using?
Steve Koski 05-07-2006, 17:17 Originally posted by Bullzye22
WOW! Flame on...
If you actually read the post, I stated that I do shoot and I do take the procedural hit for dropping my loaded mags. I didn't say they wouldn't let me, I said to be competative I'd have to play by their rules and their rules are not the same as mine. I even stated [QUOTE]Don't get me wrong, I'm a better shooter and have a learned a lot by participating. [/QOUTE].
Now take a deep breath and actaully read the post this time. And if your gonna quote me, don't pull one piece of a paragraph out of context to appease your hostility.
So you make an excuse, then refute it? What exactly is your point then?
Bullzye22 05-07-2006, 17:30 Originally posted by Steve Koski
What timing equipment are you using?
Not sure of the model but we use PACT timers. They are about 5 years old and are the same timers used by the club that hosts the matches I shoot in.
And to answer your other question, I didn't make any excuse for ME. I was simply stating that some officers may not participate because of the "rules" differences and they don't want to learn "bad" habits that might screw them up on duty. I have been told this by fellow officers and experienced it personally as I was very hesitant to participate for this very reason. I got interested but when I read the rules I didn't want to get involved in something that would ingrain "different" training habits. It wasn't until I finally went to a match and asked some questions that I realized I could shoot by my depts "rules" but would just have to take the penalties. It's a valid concern to those officers that haven't taken the time that I did to actually look into it and realize they can participate. That was all I was trying to say.
Steve Koski 05-07-2006, 21:30 Sub 1 second draws from a snapped/(whatever) duty holster are damned hard, I don't care who you are. Now you're target is pretty big and pretty close, so that gives you an advantage.
If you're starting at a buzzer and getting hits at that speed, my hat is off to you.
I still don't buy your excuse for others, seeing how most cops shoot like shieit and obviously don't even practice their normal procedures. Unless, of course, you consider "qualifying" every 6 months practicing.
rhino465 05-08-2006, 00:12 Sub-one second draws from any kind of retention duty holster is better than good. It's as fast as some really fast USPSA shooters from their speed rigs. Either the guy doing it is being modest, or there is "more to the story."
If the "average" officer at that department can do it in 1.2 seconds, they're probably the fastest group of cops in the country.
Originally by Liberal Hater
. . . I have made plenty of calls on the midnight shift responding to the homes of "gun guys" who called me to investigate the noise in the basement. So for all the posters who are bragging that can outshoot the cops and how pathetic we are, that is only half the equation. Putting bullets on target must be coupled with the WILL and courage to enter the dark basement. I would be glad to take any of the good folks on this board (from whom I have learned plenty from in the reloading forum) and put you in a force on force exercise with simunitions in a low light exercise and have you peeing down you leg. There was a quote long ago from a name that escapes me about...."I have found many men who are able, but few are willing, and they will hesitate...." someone help me with this quote if you know it.
Ah, where to start . . .
First of all, calling the police to clear your house if your really believe someone is there is the smart thing to do if you have the option, regardless of how good of a shooter you are. It's their job. Trying to clear a building by yourself, even if you know how, is not a wise thing to do. How often do you do it by yourself? And why do you do it by yourself if you have a choice?
Second, a lot of people who are not LEOs do force on force training all the time. I don't see or hear of a many cases of wet pants. Maybe they issue diapers to the non-LEO students in the classes so they won't embarrass themselves by their lack of cop-like resolve.
Third, the criticism was of shooting skills, not tactics, room/building clearing, mindset, force on force, real life combat skills, or anything else. I'm sure we could interject a variety of skills that are not the point, but they would be, uh, beside the point.
Fourth, overly defensive responses that interject strawman arguments are quite telling.
rhino465 05-08-2006, 00:19 Originally posted by Bullzye22
I don't know what you'd consider common but our "average" officer can draw and fire in about 1.2 seconds. There is a 1.5 second "goal" set to qualify (it's not enforced). Our better officers routinely do better then 1 second. This is starting from the interview position and using a Safariland 295 (lvl 2) holster. We are shooting poppers from 4yds so it's obvious if you miss, it doesn't fall. My personal best is .85 seconds but I can consistently get between .95 and 1.1 and I don't consider myself a "good" shooter, so it's very doable.
Average guy is 1.2 seconds?
Better is under a second?
From duty rigs with level 2 retention?
You're blazing fast. You should be dominating matches with small stages, because it's unlikely you'll find anyone at a club level match that can match your speed (assuming you can get good hits). If your transitions are anywhere close to that, you should be M in IDPA and at least A or better in USPSA and winning fairly big matches in your class.
But poppers at 4 yards? Why are you shooting steel so close? That's freakin' dangerous.
Hmmm. Just got done training my people last week. I have some officers who know their level II+ and III holsters so well (Safariland 070 model and the Tactical Design Labs Professional among them) that they can draw (from an interview position) and fire one round COM in 1.46-1.6 seconds, CED 6K timer. Second shots are no more than 1.75-1.9 seconds. Nothing fancy other than they actually practice in their off time drawing from that holster (lots of general folsk and cops don't for odd reasons). Then I have shooters who give themselves atomic wedgies with their level II holsters each training session where drawing and speed are combined (in an attempt to mimic real life).
Again, as we drift off topic, there is a bright line between the games and reality. Comps I have attended and things I use in games don't parlay to the street. Simple reality. However, I do learn things at the games about my gun, my trigger manipulation and other little things. That is wher I find the value.
Heck if any of the gun games were realistic for the Joe Citizen, not only would he complete his shooting, he would be required to dial 911, then get arrested for the investigation, placed in a patrol car and on occasion, hauled to a station house for an interrogation or wait for an attorney. I am yet to see any gun game simulate that. PPC included.
So relax kids, have fun at the games but make that bright separation between them and real life. If you want to see what real life will do to supposedly competent gun owners, just read about the Tacoma Mall shooting victim in last Saturday's Seattle Times.
In the meantime, this horse is so beat dead that flies are now a problem. PPC will be cop driven and oriented, just like IDPA is citizen driven (no special LE category). To each their own happy game land.
Bullzye22 05-08-2006, 11:41 Originally posted by rhino465
Average guy is 1.2 seconds?
Better is under a second?
From duty rigs with level 2 retention?
You're blazing fast. You should be dominating matches with small stages, because it's unlikely you'll find anyone at a club level match that can match your speed (assuming you can get good hits). If your transitions are anywhere close to that, you should be M in IDPA and at least A or better in USPSA and winning fairly big matches in your class.
But poppers at 4 yards? Why are you shooting steel so close? That's freakin' dangerous.
Okay, I'm confused here. I don't consider myself that fast. I have practiced (quite a bit) and do 250 draws at least one day everyweek. I still don't understand why that is so fast. Maybe I'm nieve, but we draw at the buzzer and fire one round. We start at 4 yds and progress to 7, 15, and 25. Granted, I'm point shooting at 4 yards but even at 7 my average is 1.3 seconds, 1.8 at 15 and about 2.5 at 25. I'm not the fastest but I'm probably in the top 10. Still, about 85% of our guys are 1.5 or less from 4 yds.
I don't know what my times are at matches, I rarely score well because I always drop my mags, empty or not, so take at least one procedural on every stage.
As for the poppers, we shoot frangible ammo so it just goes "poof". I have, on RARE occasion, felt a little splatter but it's very rare.
This has peeked my curiosity. I'm gonna recheck my numbers but I'm pretty sure of the times. I'll run a check on our FATS data base as we do more holster drills in there and keep track of draw time and splits. The FATS is from threat presentation to first lethat hit on target so it's more in line with the first post about 1 second shots on turning targets. I think the numbers will be fairly close though because we came up with the 1.5 qual number by taking an average from the FATS scores.
BTW, the Safariland 295 is very fast. I'm quicker out of it then my Blackhawk CQC Serpa. I've tried other level 2's and they were a lot slower.
I guess I'll have to take pictures next time we shoot and post em for ya. If I can get video I'll do that to so you can see the whole process.
Ok, I went and looked at my last qual numbers.
The drill is:
On the buzzer, draw and fire one round, COM, from the interview position.
4 yrd times:
1 - 1.09
2 - 1.19
3 - 1.09
4 - 1.21
5 - .97
6 - 1.05
7 - .99
8 - 1.01
9 - 1.03
10 - .98
7 yrd times: (not recorded last time, not sure why)
15 yrd times:
1 - 1.74
2 - 1.53
3 - 1.66
4 - 1.97 (doh)
5 - 1.70
6 - 1.80
7 - 1.78
8 - 1.73
(apparently missed twice :embarassed: )
25 yrd times aren't recorded as we do this as a "fun" competition.
I wasn't allowed to get other peoples times but I'll make a note to do some personal note taking next time and hopefully can take pictures and video.:
Steve Koski 05-08-2006, 11:49 The officers are standing, arms & hands relaxed naturally at sides, eyes forward, and the buzzer goes off right? Hand is not on gun, no "countdown" is given, the buzzer is a surprise, right?
Bullzye22 05-08-2006, 12:05 Interview position is facing target, hands clasped in front (simulated position as if taking notes), "poised" position (knees slightly bent with weight slightly forward).
Oh, and yes the buzzer is a suprise. Instructor is behind student with buzzer held near weakside shoulder.
rhino465 05-09-2006, 09:11 Well, you're the fastest group of cops to my knowledge, or close to it. You should form a team and compete. You'd crush the competition, especially police only action shooting matches.
Bullzye22 05-09-2006, 10:03 Okay, this has gotten WAY off topic, but does anyone else have numbers they can post? I'm just finding it really hard to believe that those time are considered "fast" and that only one other dept had anything close and that was under 1 second. I know there are some LE firearms instructors out there. Do you guys record this kinda stuff? Can you get an average? I have access to our FATS records, not quite the same but pretty close. I'll go in tonight and do a real average using all the numbers from the last qual. I think we had about 20 in the last group it was a good representative group so I'd think the numbers will be close.
A 1.2 par time draw average for an entire agency would indeed be very, very good. Your average draw of 1.06 is pretty quick considering the gear.
rhino465 05-09-2006, 20:54 My best (recorded) from 2003. I might be a tiny bit faster now, but I doubt it.
Single stack 1911 .45ACP
Blade-Tech standard belt holster
USPSA/IPSC metric target
distance 7-10 yards (didn't measure)
surrender position
one A-zone hit, seeing my front sight before I pressed the trigger
best time: 1.1 seconds
In matches, I probably average 1.4-1.75 seconds drawing to full targets at 10 yards or less.
If it matters, I'm a middle of the pack C-class Limited10/Limited/1911Single Stack shooter in USPSA, Sharpshooter in IDPA CDP and ESP (although I'm close enough to expert that I'd probably get it if I shot the classifier a couple of times in the same day ... missed head shots and forgetting to rack the slide on the El Pres can add up!).
For our training, those times have been in conjunction with shooting at 7 and 5 yards as part of the close quarters training (in reflection of the training wants of the chief as well as real world shootings between cops and offenders). Times would likely be a shade faster if those students were using open topped holsters like many citizens do at matches. I have no doubt that if we were to push to 10 yards and beyond, those first shot times would increase as officers would take the extra fraction of a second to acquire the front sight better. Then again, there is the atomic wedgie crowd.
Nothing special. It all comes down to practice with the holster and being familiar with the duty pistol. Nothing hard about that. As a personal example, I transitioned from a Safariland 070 level III with my personal average of 1.6 seconds from tone to first round fired. That went up when I started using the TDL Professional as I was getting familiar with the holster (up to an average of 2.0 seconds). It's back down to an average of 1.6 seconds. I suppose I could do faster if I wasn't as concerned about effective shot placement.
What I would like to see is comp shooters also round out that stuff with FoF training in Simunitions or similar. Practical stuff gets all sideways when the target is shooting back and aggressing on you. Some of my best static shooters (in scores and times) get all wild when the threats are shooting stuff back.
LiberalHater 05-10-2006, 12:35 Originally posted by rhino465
Ah, where to start . . .
First of all, calling the police to clear your house if your really believe someone is there is the smart thing to do if you have the option, regardless of how good of a shooter you are. It's their job. Trying to clear a building by yourself, even if you know how, is not a wise thing to do. How often do you do it by yourself? And why do you do it by yourself if you have a choice?
Second, a lot of people who are not LEOs do force on force training all the time. I don't see or hear of a many cases of wet pants. Maybe they issue diapers to the non-LEO students in the classes so they won't embarrass themselves by their lack of cop-like resolve.
Third, the criticism was of shooting skills, not tactics, room/building clearing, mindset, force on force, real life combat skills, or anything else. I'm sure we could interject a variety of skills that are not the point, but they would be, uh, beside the point.
Fourth, overly defensive responses that interject strawman arguments are quite telling. [/B]
Rhino,
I thought a trip through recent history might be of interest to you. I went back and read this thread again from the beginning and found several incidents that you should read since I am "interjecting strawman arguments".
"My wife can out shoot all of the guys and gals on the Hoover PD."
"My future son-in-law is a LEO in South Floida. Last time we went to the range I smoked is *ss. said it was too much coffee"
"unwashed masses without badges – rhino"
"It also begs the question as to what other skills might be underdeveloped, but that's a whole new ball o' wax. Rhino"
You got called out early on in this thread for "bashing cops" and took offense to it. To use words like "unwashed masses without badges" and questioning their skill sets is nothing more than a cheap shot at cops who you think hold themselves above the citizens they serve. That may be some cops (the ones the news cameras focus on) but the "masses with badges" are good guys like myself who truly serve their communities.
As far as building checks go and house checks the point was being made that no matter how well you shoot, there is a long list of other skills required of LEO's.
Morris states my point better:
"Practical stuff gets all sideways when the target is shooting back and aggressing on you. Some of my best static shooters (in scores and times) get all wild when the threats are shooting stuff back."
That is what I am trying to illustrate to you.
Or, as another Glock Talk poster said once:
"IDPA is about as real life as is the average porn movie"
They are gun GAMES, I play em, I shoot in the matches, but I don't pretend to believe that it has direct correlation to real life scenarios. I get to put rounds down range and work on draws, trigger squeeze and other fundamentals.
Lib
Hey guys, the issue of "time" came up because this is a competition forum and as we know, some competition shooters eat, drink, and breath, by the timer. I think rhino is just trying to put the notion of a sub one second draw from a level II or III holster into perspective. As one approaches their limits of human function, very small decreases in time comes at a huge expense.
BTW, a 1.6 second draw is a long, long way from one second. Let me know when you get that under one second cold and on demand. ;)
Will rarely, if ever, happen in a level 2+ or 3 holster, at least for sub 1 second. Well, maybe you could get a shot off but will it be an effective hit? That's the reality. That is the reality of PPC as well. PPC, even as it is, reflects this and reflects the use of duty gear and bacon bits stuff. When I want to do citizen style stuff, I'll head over to the TSA or IDPA. No problem there. If I want to get racy, USPSA baby!
Duty gear has moved from level 1 drop leg or low ride to nearly anything you can imagine. Times change to reflect that. Sure, times may have been a shade faster with that older holster, but with many agencies mandating level 2 or better holsters, times move up.
(Oh lord, please do not let this thread start straying into that evil abyss of sighted versus point shooting . . . )
Originally posted by Hozer
The reason the non-LE is not allowed to compete in large "Sanctioned" PPC matches is because its the rules. Easy as that. Nobody is picking on you. Just the rules.
Thank you Captain Obvious. With a thread title:
"PPC - why are civilians banned?"
Obviously he already knows the rules, and wants to know "WHY".
A simple perusal of say, GSSF match scores comparing times of LEOs to non-LEOs will give you the answer - few LEOs would be involved or would win anything if it was a level playing field. Kinda like Womens Sports.
:laughabove: Law enforcement categories in the shooting sports exist to recognize those folks for the role they play in society. It has nothing to do with handing out cupie dolls to the inept. That's what classes are for. :)
so you know how fast that is.
i'm a A class limited uspsa shooter. and cold i'd be lucky to get a 1.2 second hit at 7 yards from my speed rig. once i'm warmed up .95's are common but to get good A hits i need to slow down to 1.0 to 1.2's in matches 1.2 to 1.5's are the rule.
so 1 second draws and hits with your duty rig is real fast, keep it up.
Originally posted by LiberalHater
"IDPA is about as real life as is the average porn movie"
Which makes most other shooting on the range, including law enforcement training, "about as real life as a science fiction porn movie."
In an interview, the current IPSC World Champion said he was "delighted" to average a "1.2 second draw" across all stages of fire in a match. Of course in practice just fooling around there are a lot M and GM shooters routinely breaking the first shot in the .7's.
Steve Koski 05-11-2006, 22:54 Originally posted by Bren
Which makes most other shooting on the range, including law enforcement training, "about as real life as a science fiction porn movie."
Aint it the truth! LOL!
rhino465 05-12-2006, 09:20 :supergrin:
rhino465 05-12-2006, 09:31 Originally posted by Ankeny
:laughabove: Law enforcement categories in the shooting sports exist to recognize those folks for the role they play in society. It has nothing to do with handing out cupie dolls to the inept. That's what classes are for. :)
In understand the concept, but why is one profession recognized, but not another? Why, for instance, don't firefighters have a specific category? Or people who work at abused spouse/children shelters? Or someone from one of the really, really dangerous professions such as commercial fishing? They all serve absolutely essential roles in our society and are just as valuable (no more or less) than any other.
I suppose the above is more rhetorical than actual questions, of course.
Anyone know why we no longer had profession-oriented categories in USPSA or IPSC?
As to why the private citizens are still disallowed in PPC (under the rules, anyway), is probably a moot point. The better (albeit related) question is, why hasn't NRA taken a good look at a dying sport and their reasons for their decisions? Why have they not concluded that allowing private citizens to shoot in the game would only serve to help things? The answers to those questions may rest in how they are handling NRA Action Pistol (i.e. helping to kill another dying sport by making illogical rule changes while ignoring the voices of the shooters).
I suggest that perhaps NRA isn't really as supportive of actual shooters as we'd like to think, and far less supportive than they should be. The farther you get away something politically innocuous like trap and skeet or static bullseye shooting, the less support NRA seems to show.
I maintain that those who control NRAs day to day operations care more about NRA (as an entity) than they do about indivudals, their RKBA, or their shooting activities. Whether or not that is justfiable is ... debatable. Once the view of the trees has been obscured fully by the forest, do the trees still exist?
Jim Watson 05-12-2006, 10:39 You got a point there.
As I said here early on, NRA does not support Americans shooting at humanoid targets, it might give the semi-tame politicians an idea what the Second Amendment is really about.
Also, if you have an outfit that pays Wayne LaPierre $800,000+ a year and devotes 46% of its income to more fundraising projects, you can see what the real priorities are. (Per latest Hardcorps Report from Neal Knox's widow and son.)
Flexmoney 05-12-2006, 19:00 I think non-LEO's can shoot PPC in OHIO:
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/arena/2351/
Michigan also...50 td targets are fun!!!
Tom
Michigan also...50 td targets are fun!!!
Tom
rhino465 05-12-2006, 23:39 Hey, Tom! I still need to test that 9mm ammo you gave to me! D'OH!
Yes, there are some clubs that let everyone shoot, but it's still against the NRA PPC rules.
Hey joe it's great ammo so just save it.
If you really want to get discouraged,check and see how much (1.4 million )the NRA had New Mexico spend for this years NPSC championship for one year in Albuquerque.
Tom
rhino465 05-13-2006, 15:45 I don't want to know!
:freak:
Originally posted by pnhurst
Thank you Captain Obvious.
Thats MSgt Obvious. I couldnt be an officer, my parents were married...
Sometimes the obvious *is* the answer. And sometimes the rules are the rules. Black and white rulebooks are good.
Do I like the fact I cant shoot a sanctioned PPC match? No.
Do I agree with it? No.
Do I accept it? Yes. Then I move on. Life is too short.
Why, for instance, don't firefighters have a specific category?
In GSSF they do have a special category for fire fighters.
rhino465 05-15-2006, 20:36 Originally posted by Ankeny
In GSSF they do have a special category for fire fighters.
Thank you, Mister Smarty-Pants!
Actually, I did not know that.
I know why GSSF has all the police categories/recognition, because GSSF is a marketing tool. Their two domestic markets are 1) civlian police and 2) private citizens.
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