View Full Version : Review of CProducts SS mags
c4igrant 04-28-2006, 09:55 I recently got some of the CProducts Stainless Steel mags in for evaluation and cannot say enough good things about them. First, lets talk about what goes in them. The first thing that catches your eye is the nice flat black finish called Mar-Lube. It is has some texture to it like a teflon mag and is NOT shiny like an HK mag. Second is the follower. These mags come with a specially designed Magpul GEN II follower. Thirdly, the spring is black CS which only takes a set on the first load.
The SS mag has a much more solid & rigid feel to it and I am UNABLE to push in the sides of the mag in like I can with an Alum. mag. More on this below.
The next thing I did was install a Magpul Ranger plate on one of the SS mags. I then loaded it up with 30rds of M855. I took another SS mag (without a Ranger plate) and loaded it up with 30rds of M855. For fun, I tried to load a 31st round into the SS mag without the RP. It went in without a problem!
After the mags were loaded, I noticed that there was room on either side of the round. So I loaded up a couple other Alum. mags and looked at the sides of the mag. They all made contact. This could lead to some failure to feed problems as the mag is holding the round so tightly (see pic below).
I then took an AR with the bolt closed and inserted the 30rd SS mag without the RP. It went in and seated as easy as say an alum. 30rd mag downloaded to 25rds! Next was the SS mag with the RP. This mag inserted and seated like an alum mag downloaded to 28rds. The other thing I noticed is that the SS mags felt thinner (narrower) to me. So I took a loaded Alum. mag and compared their widths. Low and behold, the SS mag was thinner! The reason for this is that the SS mags are heat treated and much harder than their Alum. counterparts. This keeps it from swelling and thusly easier to insert into the mag well.
The final test was the mag drop onto concrete from a shouldered weapon. I took the fully loaded SS mag witout the RP and drop tested it. The first round stripped out of the mag, but the base plate and all the other rounds stayed in place! The Alum. mag I drop tested didn't do so well.
Lets talk about weight. The SS mag weighs about 1.6 ounces more than an Alum. mag. It weighs about 8 ounces less than an HK mag. The SS mag is the sam length as an Alum. mag, but is shorter than an HK mag.
How about cost? The SS mags run about $17.99. HK mags run close to $50 if you can find them.
My conclusion is that these new SS mags from CProducts are equal to if not better than the much more expensive HK mags and you can use the Magpul L or Ranger plates with them! :D
C4
www.GRTactical.com
CProducts SS Mag
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/CProducts%20SS%20mag.JPG
CProducts SS Mag with RP
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/CProducts%20SS%20mag%20with%20RP.JPG
Notice the gap between the round and lips of the SS mag
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/CProducts%20with%20loaded%20ammo.JPG
When you compared the Stainless Steel Cp mags agains an Aluminum mag was the Aluminum mag also Cp? If so do you think the aluminum Cp mags are prone to "to some failure to feed problems as the mag is holding the round so tightly"
c4igrant 04-28-2006, 12:23 Originally posted by Sierra
When you compared the Stainless Steel Cp mags agains an Aluminum mag was the Aluminum mag also Cp? If so do you think the aluminum Cp mags are prone to "to some failure to feed problems as the mag is holding the round so tightly"
The Alum. mags I used in my test were D&H (Labelle) and Okay. I do not have any CProducts Alum. mags (Yet) so I cannot say for certain. I doubt though that there are any issues with them (as people are buying them in large QTY's).
If your on the fence as to go with an Alum mag or a SS mag, I would suggest you buy one of these SS mags before you make your decision. Once you load one up (with 30rds) and feel how easy it is to insert on a closed bolt and how nice the finish is, you won't go back to an Alum. mag.
C4
Razoreye 04-28-2006, 14:35 Thanks for the review, I appreciate it! If you have an HK mag will you review it also? I know you made a few comparisons but a more indepth would be nice.
I've read that SS CP mags were comparable with that of the HK and you listed some qualities that seem to supercede the HK. Sounds like a good product to me!
:patriot:
c4igrant 04-28-2006, 14:41 Originally posted by Razoreye
Thanks for the review, I appreciate it! If you have an HK mag will you review it also? I know you made a few comparisons but a more indepth would be nice.
I've read that SS CP mags were comparable with that of the HK and you listed some qualities that seem to supercede the HK. Sounds like a good product to me!
:patriot:
Since HK mags have been out for awhile and others have done reviews on them (like in SWAT Magazine) I don't thin I will do one.
I will gladly answer any questions you have on them though.
C4
Army of Juan 04-28-2006, 16:21 The CP aluminum mags also have the gaps on the sides between the cartridge and the mag. It is the D&H mags that make contact.
I also got some of the CP SS mags in yesterday and they seem really stout. As of yesterday Larry dropped the price from $25 per mag to $18. I will be purchasing a bunch more of these. If you order 10 SS mags they will give you 2 aluminum mags and ship the order for free.
While I cannot get real enthused about the Stainless Steel mags I must admit that Cp has the most aggressive marketing I can recall in the magazine market.
DreamWeaver88 04-28-2006, 17:18 I like the C-Products mags that I have (Aluminum).....don't care for the Mar-Lube finish. Teflon is much better, IMO.
Oh well.....mine have been Duracoated anyway.
DW
Originally posted by Sierra
I must admit that Cp has the most aggressive marketing I can recall in the magazine market.
That's a bit of an understatement ;)
They make used car sales marketing seem 'low key.'
I have some CP aluminum mags (the AR Stoner ones). Other than the easily scrathed Mar-lube finish, they feed and function perfectly and looks identical to the mag that came with my M&P15T
I will keep an eye out for those SS CP mags though, they sound great.
switch625 04-28-2006, 21:41 CP is just the latest greatest buzz. I'll pass. Guess the marlube isn't up to teflon standards.
AWDTerror 04-28-2006, 23:14 marlube is just really a baked on powder coat. or very similar to it. i might buy one or 2 to try out
Grant,
Are you going to start selling these?
I was leaning towards the HK mags for the full 30 rounds, but if these do the same thing for half the cost...
c4igrant 04-29-2006, 07:20 Originally posted by switch625
CP is just the latest greatest buzz. I'll pass. Guess the marlube isn't up to teflon standards.
It is a new product for sure, but to pass would be a mistake. Other than the HK mags, I have yet to find an Alum. mag that will easily seat on a closed bolt like these SS mags will.
I have now done 100 mag inserts and there is no wear on the mar-lube finish. It is a good as teflon IMHO.
C4
c4igrant 04-29-2006, 07:21 Originally posted by dport
Grant,
Are you going to start selling these?
I was leaning towards the HK mags for the full 30 rounds, but if these do the same thing for half the cost...
Yes I am. If you buy one and don't like it, you can return it with no questions asked! ;)
C4
switch625 04-29-2006, 09:37 Originally posted by c4igrant
It is a new product for sure, but to pass would be a mistake. Other than the HK mags, I have yet to find an Alum. mag that will easily seat on a closed bolt like these SS mags will.
I have now done 100 mag inserts and there is no wear on the mar-lube finish. It is a good as teflon IMHO.
C4 The link to Pat Rogers posted here saying to download by two allows you to seat a mag on a closed bolt.
When I can buy two aluminum for every steel, I'll have plenty of spares incase my aluminum mags self implode. I've got mags older than me that run fine. Steel is great for mil, leo or somebody who takes carbine classes and really abuses their mags. I'm not delusional, I accept my status as a high drag low speed computer commando and don't need steel mags.
I've seen more problems with CP mags in the last months than I've seen with D&H mags for years. Larry runs around giving out free mags to squash negative threads. He's like a used car salesman, I wouldn't trust either any further than I could throw 'em.
Martindog 04-29-2006, 12:47 All the reports I've read about current production stuff is all favorable. There are many reports about earlier production products, pre-SS mag release, where there were known problems, and Larry corrected them. While they may have had some teething problems awhile back, sounds to me like that's all history.
c4igrant 04-29-2006, 14:51 Originally posted by switch625
The link to Pat Rogers posted here saying to download by two allows you to seat a mag on a closed bolt.
When I can buy two aluminum for every steel, I'll have plenty of spares incase my aluminum mags self implode. I've got mags older than me that run fine. Steel is great for mil, leo or somebody who takes carbine classes and really abuses their mags. I'm not delusional, I accept my status as a high drag low speed computer commando and don't need steel mags.
I've seen more problems with CP mags in the last months than I've seen with D&H mags for years. Larry runs around giving out free mags to squash negative threads. He's like a used car salesman, I wouldn't trust either any further than I could throw 'em.
If you don't need mags then you don't need mags. This review is for the folks that are looking for more mags and are looking for an alternative to the expensive HK mags (which were/are considered the best).
As far as D&H mags having problems, I really cannot comment on that as I have them and they work just fine. From what I have read though, there have been a lot of people lately having problems with D&H mags. This could be because they are trying to keep up with demand and are rushing them out the door (who knows).
C4
c4igrant 04-29-2006, 14:55 Originally posted by Martindog
All the reports I've read about current production stuff is all favorable. There are many reports about earlier production products, pre-SS mag reelase, where there were known problems, and Larry corrected them. While they may have ahd some teething problems awhile abck, sounds to me like that's all history.
Agree. The initial run of experimental SS mags had some issues. Those have been corrected and we are now looking at the perfected products.
Just as an FYI, CProducts is about to release SS magsin 6.5, 6.8, 7.62 and 9mm! The price on these mags will be better than what folks are currently paying and will most likely be a superior product!
C4
When are you going to start stocking them?
c4igrant 04-29-2006, 19:39 Originally posted by dport
When are you going to start stocking them?
The 5.56's are in now. The 6.5 and 6.8 mags are going to be released in 1 week. No ETA on teh 9mm mags yet.
C4
AWDTerror 04-29-2006, 21:01 Originally posted by switch625
The link to Pat Rogers posted here saying to download by two allows you to seat a mag on a closed bolt.
When I can buy two aluminum for every steel, I'll have plenty of spares incase my aluminum mags self implode. I've got mags older than me that run fine. Steel is great for mil, leo or somebody who takes carbine classes and really abuses their mags. I'm not delusional, I accept my status as a high drag low speed computer commando and don't need steel mags.
I've seen more problems with CP mags in the last months than I've seen with D&H mags for years. Larry runs around giving out free mags to squash negative threads. He's like a used car salesman, I wouldn't trust either any further than I could throw 'em.
last time i checked product or vendor bashing wasn't allowed?
I hate it when people jump on here and say this or that.
why don't you let people buy one or 2 mags like i will and let them find out for themselves. considering they are only $18 a pop it's not that much.
and even if you are not happy with the mags, and you buy them through Grant he will buy them back from you no questions asked.
grant expect to hear a call from me on monday
meadmakerman 04-30-2006, 00:01 Well I ordered 10 CProducts mags, 6 30 rounders and 4 20 rounders all with the mar-lube finish, am supposed to get 1 free SS 30 rounder with the order.
S/B here next week, I'll be taking them and 500 rounds to the range hopefully next weekend. Will let y'all know how they work.
I don't want to ruin your range day but if your Cp mags are like the ones I purchased expect a dull time from them as there were absolutely no malfunctions in 2200 rounds.
I was among the few that tested out the pre-release SS mags. Mine have functioned flawlessly using several different loads, in several different weapons. I stopped counting at 1k rounds, but they are still working great. I have no need to shell out $50 ea for HK mags when I can buy 2 (almost 3) SS CP mags instead. Sure, the standard USGI mags work great as well, but the SS mags have a few bonuses. CP has been working/communicating with the end user in a way other manufacturers have not.
Comparing CP to a used car dealer is an uninformed cheap shot. I consider the SS mags to be duty ready. I placed an order for a few more.
Originally posted by Eric911
I was among the few that tested out the pre-release SS mags. Mine have functioned flawlessly using several different loads, in several different weapons. I stopped counting at 1k rounds, but they are still working great. I have no need to shell out $50 ea for HK mags when I can buy 2 (almost 3) SS CP mags instead. Sure, the standard USGI mags work great as well, but the SS mags have a few bonuses. CP has been working/communicating with the end user in a way other manufacturers have not.
Comparing CP to a used car dealer is an uninformed cheap shot. I consider the SS mags to be duty ready. I placed an order for a few more.
That's all I needed to hear. If you tested them and approve then I would have no issues ordering them and adding them to my kit.
Grant I'll have to pick some of these up the next time I'm out.
I just ordered a couple to try out, based on C4igrants review. I hope I don't like them too much, I've already got 38 DH's. :supergrin:
switch625 04-30-2006, 12:17 Originally posted by Martindog
All the reports I've read about current production stuff is all favorable. There are many reports about earlier production products, pre-SS mag release, where there were known problems, and Larry corrected them. While they may have had some teething problems awhile back, sounds to me like that's all history. I'm not talking about their early mags. I'm talking about the past few months. Anytime anything pops up Larry is quick to replace product and give out free product so people will post glowing reviews. I've seen a handful of people post pissed off feedback, then come back with glowing stories about CP. Paying off customers is one way to keep your image up.
Point is, they are still having problems.
switch625 04-30-2006, 12:22 Originally posted by AWDTerror
last time i checked product or vendor bashing wasn't allowed?
I hate it when people jump on here and say this or that.Last time I checked, giving your opinion is what these forums are all about. I'm not bashing, just making observations. I'm also not trying to make a buck of these either.
why don't you let people buy one or 2 mags like i will and let them find out for themselves.I did not realize I was that powerful. :supergrin:
Originally posted by AWDTerror
last time i checked product or vendor bashing wasn't allowed?
I hate it when people jump on here and say this or that.
Oh that's funny :P
No one is bashing CP, or DH. People are making a much bigger deal about the few DH mags that have problems, as opposed to the few CP mags that have problems.
Both manufacturers produce mags that have known problems. I personally think any company will, when making tens of thousands of an item, produce a few items that are out of spec -- that's the nature of large scale manufacturing.
With D&H some idiots will get bad mag, and then claim that all D&H mags are therefore bad. The most vocal have done this without ever live firing the weapon, they base their condemnation upon failures during hand cycling only.
With CP mags, when they have a problem two things happen 1) Larry buys silence faster than live rabbit tossed on a hot fry pan by giving out a free mag and 2) CP apologists post a bunch of CP lovefest crap.
With D&H mags, if a person post about a problem than suddenly tons of people condem the entire company out of hand (based on a very few known experinces).
Here's a mild example of what I'm talking about
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=279050 A problems with a CP mag, with the follower binding.
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=279688 a problem with a D&H mag, with the follower binding.
2 different companies, same problem. One gets condemed, the other praised.
I have seen many examples of this exact type of thing. I only have access to 5 pages of AR15 posts, or I'd cite them. I've seen just as many posts about problems with CP mags as I have seen regarding D&H mags (failuire to strip rounds, failure to feed, etc). I have even seen recent posts about sharp edges on the stainless steel CP mags causing cuts (as in, a cut to the hand upon handling the mag), now that's an important a tooling/finishing problem.
The bottom line is that in terms of fit finish and function the mags are virtually equal. And if you buy a D&H mag from a reputable dealer (such as Bravo) they will cover any defects, just like CP does.
Now Bravo and D&H aren't quite the marketing whore that CP is (and I mean that in the nicest sense of the word) ;) But they both make good mags. If Larry didn't do so much spin control (continually, every day) then I bet $$$ that both companies would enjoy exactly the same reputation. Part of Larry's spin control is placing posts on threads about D&H mags, carefully worded posts that don't directly bad mouth D&h but sure leave an impression.
And don't worry so much AWDTerror, no one is bashing anybody... we are dicussing a topic relevant to AR15s, the merits of specific products, and anylizing the marketing practices within the industry.
c4igrant 04-30-2006, 15:18 Originally posted by switch625
I'm not talking about their early mags. I'm talking about the past few months. Anytime anything pops up Larry is quick to replace product and give out free product so people will post glowing reviews. I've seen a handful of people post pissed off feedback, then come back with glowing stories about CP. Paying off customers is one way to keep your image up.
Point is, they are still having problems.
I got a news flash for you, how Larry handles people that get a bad mag is how you do business! If someone gets a bad product, sending them a good one is how you fix it.
Just as an FYI for you, every company I stock puts out a lemon now and again. I wish they all took care of their mistakes like Larry does! ;)
C4
Razoreye 04-30-2006, 16:27 I don't know about you, but replacing a bad part for no cost sounds like wonderful customer service to me.
Originally posted by Razoreye
I don't know about you, but replacing a bad part for no cost sounds like wonderful customer service to me.
No you are all wrong, he is "buying their silence" with good customer service.
:supergrin:
Originally posted by epsylum
No you are all wrong, he is "buying their silence" with good customer service.
:supergrin:
Having good customer service is a-ok.
Giving away tons of mags (potentially cherry picked mags) to established board members in order to create buzz is a bit slimy, especially when he targets board members who are vocally 'less than thrilled' with his products. I've seen it happen where if someone outright says that they don't see the need for SS mags Larry jumps in and says 'free mag!" ::puke::
Also, making quasi-disparaging comments on D&H threads is not about 'good customer service.' When a manufacturer 'in essence' seems to bad mouth their competition I think that shows their real metal.
I do agree with c4igrant "every company I stock puts out a lemon now and again." Yup, any company involved in manufacuring a large number of items will produce some out of spec units, it is unavoidable... that includes D&H, CP, RRA, Colt, etc.
I'll go out on a limb and say that I bet D&H has sold way more mags than CP since the AWB ended. A small parcentage have not meet specs, but a small percentage of CP mags also (obviously) haven't met specs either. D&H is less expensive for the consumer, is used by more governmental agencies, has a longer standing record (especially since they use the La Belle tooling), and probably when considering the total number of mags sold has a smaller percentage of defects than CP. Just my .02
I'll also add that Larry is a marketing genius, of course he's a marketing whore too ;) What some see as simply good customer service I see as a cool calculated campaign, where every move is well thought out and intended to increase market share. About the only thing they fail on is their actual website, which sucks.
I am glad CP is there, because competition is good :) We all benefit from a market, where supply drives prices down to around the $9 to $11 range ;) Maybe we need another company producing quality mags, so we can get the prices down to around $5!
Originally posted by Veritas
I am glad CP is there, because competition is good :) We all benefit from a market, where supply drives prices down to around the $9 to $11 range ;) Maybe we need another company producing quality mags, so we can get the prices down to around $5!
And this is why it is good that he is making SS mags that don't cost $50 each. Good ole competition.
Personally I don't give a crap what kind of marketing he has. As long as the product he is selling works and if it doesn't he corrects it to my liking.
I am just a simple man in that way. ;)
c4igrant 05-01-2006, 07:21 Originally posted by Veritas
[quote]Having good customer service is a-ok.
Giving away tons of mags (potentially cherry picked mags) to established board members in order to create buzz is a bit slimy, especially when he targets board members who are vocally 'less than thrilled' with his products. I've seen it happen where if someone outright says that they don't see the need for SS mags Larry jumps in and says 'free mag!" ::puke::
Your guestimation that CProducts has given away a "ton of mags" is 100% wrong. We are talking about a VERY small amount.
If you make a product and no one has any knowledge of it, the best way to get it out there is to give it away! I have done this many times and it works very well. This is called marketing 101.
Also, making quasi-disparaging comments on D&H threads is not about 'good customer service.' When a manufacturer 'in essence' seems to bad mouth their competition I think that shows their real metal.
I have missed these comments. Larry has personally told me that he believes D&H puts out a good mag.
I do agree with c4igrant "every company I stock puts out a lemon now and again." Yup, any company involved in manufacuring a large number of items will produce some out of spec units, it is unavoidable... that includes D&H, CP, RRA, Colt, etc.
What makes a company great is how they handle the issue after a lemon is found. Most companies fall flat on their face with this.
I'll go out on a limb and say that I bet D&H has sold way more mags than CP since the AWB ended. A small parcentage have not meet specs, but a small percentage of CP mags also (obviously) haven't met specs either.
D&H pushes out a BOAT LOAD of mags (no contest here).
D&H is less expensive for the consumer, is used by more governmental agencies, has a longer standing record (especially since they use the La Belle tooling), and probably when considering the total number of mags sold has a smaller percentage of defects than CP. Just my .02
We have to compare apples to apples here. First, D&H Alum. mags and the CProducts Alum. mag are the same price. To the best of my knowledge, there has been little to no issues with CProducts Alum. mags.
CProducts SS mags is brand new design and there will always be growing pans with a new item (cars, guns, etc). Most of the issues people have had with this mag was in the very first products runs.
l also add that Larry is a marketing genius, of course he's a marketing whore too ;) What some see as simply good customer service I see as a cool calculated campaign, where every move is well thought out and intended to increase market share. About the only thing they fail on is their actual website, which sucks.
If a company is not strategically positioning themselves to take over a market, then they get what they asked for (which is nothing).
I am glad CP is there, because competition is good :) We all benefit from a market, where supply drives prices down to around the $9 to $11 range ;) Maybe we need another company producing quality mags, so we can get the prices down to around $5! [/B]
You will never see an Alum. mag below $10 bucks again (IMHO). The mag wars are over.
C4
crowkiller 05-01-2006, 13:30 Is there a specific reason why the CP SS mags use a different follower design than the standard design?
c4igrant 05-01-2006, 14:14 Originally posted by crowkiller
Is there a specific reason why the CP SS mags use a different follower design than the standard design?
Yes. From what I was told, they are not thick enough to function properly in the SS mags. If I remember correctly, Magpul is going to redesign their followers so they will work in the SS mags. I have no ETA on this though.
C4
Originally posted by switch625
Guess the marlube isn't up to teflon standards.
Yup, crap.
I recieved a few today, maralube was miss-applied on one of them, and the stuff flakes off way too easily, it seems like the adhesion to the metal is sub-par (at least on the ones I recieved).
c4igrant 05-04-2006, 09:28 Originally posted by Veritas
Yup, crap.
I recieved a few today, maralube was miss-applied on one of them, and the stuff flakes off way too easily, it seems like the adhesion to the metal is sub-par (at least on the ones I recieved).
Odd as mine are stellar. I would suggest that you contact Larry to discuss the issue as you might have gotten a bad batch.
C4
c4igrant 05-05-2006, 12:21 Some more pics.
C4
How the mags come
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/SS%20in%20bag.JPG
SS mag with Mapgul L Plate
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/SS%20with%20LP.JPG
Guys, I got my two test mags from C4 today and they are AWSOME looking. Nice and smooth dark finish. I will be trying them next week at the range.. I will let you know.
Kevin
I'm still waiting on mine. I need to call them. I haven't received a tracking number or anything.
I just received my two test mags. Very nice. I hope to get to try them out soon.:supergrin:
switch625 05-09-2006, 16:46 Veritas, very well put and better than I could have said it.
c4igrant, you have a financial stake in this. I take your comments the same as what I've read in gun rags.
c4igrant 05-09-2006, 17:13 Originally posted by switch625
Veritas, very well put and better than I could have said it.
c4igrant, you have a financial stake in this. I take your comments the same as what I've read in gun rags.
That would be a mistake on your part. When I wrote my review, I paid close to retail for the mags and was NOT selling nor had I decided to sell them.
Another thing that seperates me from many of my fellow dealers, is that I am a shooter first and a dealer second. What that means is that I ONLY stock gear that I believe is quality.
Most of my fellow dealers only stock gear that they believe they can make money on and most likely don't even use it. :freak: How some dealers recommend gear that they have never personally used just blows my mind.
C4
Wow! This thread was a good read, as far as the range report of the mags. I think I am going to go ahead and create a new word (MAGHATER). Some of you folks must not understand what it takes to bring a new product to market. I am d%^n sure that I dont know alot about it myself. But CProducts is making a needed product (SS mags) that is SUPERIOR to alum mags. And if you do not believe that SS is better than alum then you have not tried them yet. The only reason that I dont have HK mags is, they are expensive (and I am not a fan of HK). So for those of you mag conspiracy folks, at least try them yourself before you dismiss a good product that is made by a USA mfg. bigg out
I'm not sure how long some of you have been shooting ARs but I think it's safe to assume that some of you weren't around during the ban years when we had to pay $30 per mag if you could find them.
Now we have companies like CProducts producing quality mags and guys like C4iGrant and Eric doing reviews and some still aren't happy. If you won't take Grant's word for it at least listen to Eric. He probably knows more and puts more rounds down range than most everyone here put together.
And for those that won't listen to Grant because you think he's out to make a quick buck you're only hurting yourself. I've been through a lot of classes with Grant and put tens of thousands of rounds down range with him in those classes and I trust his opinions on gear. We've seen a lot of stuff fail and we've seen a lot of stuff not live up to the hype. Honestly, if it can't cut the mustard he won't sell it, period. And he's probably talked me out of more gear and saved me more money than most of you have spent on AR accessories in the past two years.
Like I said, you're only hurting yourselves and leaving more product for the rest of us to buy! :supergrin:
Originally posted by switch625
c4igrant, you have a financial stake in this. I take your comments the same as what I've read in gun rags.
That would be a huge mistake. Grant carries gear for one reason, he believes in it.
I've also not know Grant to be primarily motivated by profit. But that's just my personal experience with him.
Originally posted by m4arc
[BAnd he's probably talked me out of more gear and saved me more money than most of you have spent on AR accessories in the past two years.
[/B]
Most people I know personally who have dealt with Grant have told the same story, including myself.
Skintop911 05-09-2006, 20:50 Grant is GTG.
It never hurts to consider the source of info, but Grant's track record for making sound recommendations is well established.
I have been buying from Grant for several years and have found that he won't sell what does not work. He has the professional shooter in mind first, then business second. Like others on the board he has saved me hundreds in gear, and always replies quickly to my stupid questions, no matter how stupid they are.
Brian
Grant might be the best guy in the world, great. He could be "Mr. AR-15," fantastic. Fact is that he's a retailer like Bravo or Copes, or Midway, etc. Anytime a retailer is extolling the virtues of their wares one is right to be respectfully cautious about the retailers opinions imho.
Now, back to mags ;)
The pictures I took of my CP mags look VERY different than the pictures that Grant took of his CP mags.
Here's some pics of the CP Stainless mag with Marlube finish I recieved the other day.
Backside after 2 insertions into clean magwell, plenty of scratches already visible:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainless2.jpg
Frontside after 2 insertions, plenty of scratches, and note the bubbling/peeling of the marlube near the mag catch:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainless1.jpg
Let's see that a little closer:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainles3.jpg
That stainless mag has only been inserted in the magwell 2x, never fired. The peeling above the magcatch was there when the mag was new in wrapper.
Now on to the CP Aluminum with Marlube finish I recieved recently.
Front side after zero use, no insertions into magwell:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum3.jpg
Miss-applied Marlube on feed lip? Bubbles all over, chipped/peeling off front corner:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum1.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum2.jpg
The Marlube finish seems sub-par in general when compared to teflon. None of the D&H mags I've used, with the teflon coating, have displayed these kind of characteristics (how easily it scratches)
Marlube (when properly applied) does seem a little better than the USGI dry finish, but not as good as teflon. It almost seems like (and behaves like) a paint applied to the mag. As with any new product, time will be the real jury on how this new finish holds up.
As far as function, I still am going to guess that CP and D&H are virtually equivalent.
Yah, I agree, those look like schit. I would probably send them back, hopefully they will get that issue worked out soon.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 07:44 Originally posted by Veritas
Grant might be the best guy in the world, great. He could be "Mr. AR-15," fantastic. Fact is that he's a retailer like Bravo or Copes, or Midway, etc. Anytime a retailer is extolling the virtues of their wares one is right to be respectfully cautious about the retailers opinions imho.
Now, back to mags ;)
The pictures I took of my CP mags look VERY different than the pictures that Grant took of his CP mags.
Here's some pics of the CP Stainless mag with Marlube finish I recieved the other day.
Backside after 2 insertions into clean magwell, plenty of scratches already visible:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainless2.jpg
Frontside after 2 insertions, plenty of scratches, and note the bubbling/peeling of the marlube near the mag catch:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainless1.jpg
Let's see that a little closer:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainles3.jpg
That stainless mag has only been inserted in the magwell 2x, never fired. The peeling above the magcatch was there when the mag was new in wrapper.
Now on to the CP Aluminum with Marlube finish I recieved recently.
Front side after zero use, no insertions into magwell:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum3.jpg
Miss-applied Marlube on feed lip? Bubbles all over, chipped/peeling off front corner:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum1.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum2.jpg
The Marlube finish seems sub-par in general when compared to teflon. None of the D&H mags I've used, with the teflon coating, have displayed these kind of characteristics (how easily it scratches)
Marlube (when properly applied) does seem a little better than the USGI dry finish, but not as good as teflon. It almost seems like (and behaves like) a paint applied to the mag. As with any new product, time will be the real jury on how this new finish holds up.
As far as function, I still am going to guess that CP and D&H are virtually equivalent.
You are correct that buyers need to be aware of manufacturers and dealers telling everyone that product A is the best and product B sucks. This rule however doesn't apply to me as I don't play that game. As some of my customers have pointed out, I talk them out of a lot of gear that they either don't need or won't fill the role they want to use it in.
Now onto your mags. Those of you that have used REAL USGI mags (No D&H's are NOT real USGI mags) they use a dry film finish. This finish gets wear marks VERY easily and is supposed to look used right out of the sealed bag. The Black Mar-Lube finish is VERY similar to the dry film finish, but wears better. The finish on the D&H mags is a teflon (non Mil-Spec) and does look "Prettier" if that is what your into.
The mar-lube finish on your mags (specifically the clumping together) does NOT look good. It appears that you got a bad batch (which can and does happen to all Manufacturers). I am SURE that you have contacted CProducts about the issue instead of just jumping on the internet to complain. Right?
I sell and have used D&H mags for about a year now. The CProducts Alum. mags might somewhat compare to the D&H Alum. mags, but they do NOT give you any of the capabilities of the SS mags (which is what my thread is about).
For the record, I have gone through about 100 CProducts SS mags and not seen any of the finish issues shown here. This leads me to believe that you got a bad batch and am sure that Larry will correct the mistake.
C4
crowkiller 05-10-2006, 07:51 Grant is a topnotch fella and Ill put my word on it.
Veritas those mags look like a 3 year old finger painted them Id send them back.
Originally posted by c4igrant
You are correct that buyers need to be aware of manufacturers and dealers telling everyone that product A is the best and product B sucks. This rule however doesn't apply to me as I don't play that game. As some of my customers have pointed out, I talk them out of a lot of gear that they either don't need or won't fill the role they want to use it in.
Hmm, always humorous to see someone say something to the effect "yes that's the wise thing to do, but of course it doesn't apply to me" ;) This ain't about you Grant, it's about reviewing CP mags. Like I said, you might be God's gift to retail, and it wouldn't matter. In fact, let's all agree that Grant is the hypothetical God of internet retailers and keep this thread about the mags ;)
Originally posted by c4igrant
The Black Mar-Lube finish is VERY similar to the dry film finish, but wears better. The finish on the D&H mags is a teflon (non Mil-Spec) and does look "Prettier" if that is what your into.
Prettier? If "prettier" translates to "it stays on the damn mag better" then yes, I like prettier ;) The finish ranking from best to worst seems to be A) Teflon B) Marlube, when applied correctly C) Dry film.
I agree, Marlube is very similar to the dry film finish. It appears to be only a marginal improvement. A stainless CP mag with Marlube may be slick, but the finish still kinda sucks when compared to a D&H aluminum mag with Teflon.
I can stuff a Telfon mag in the magwell all day, and it shows zero scratched. Marlube shows noticeable wear after 2 insertions. That does not bode well for the longevity of the Marlube finish, in comparison to Teflon. It ain't about pretty, its' about how long will the finish protect the mag. Time will tell if this is a decent finish, but the initial reports I've been hearing, as well as my experience, says it isn't all that great.
Originally posted by c4igrant
The mar-lube finish on your mags (specifically the clumping together) does NOT look good. It appears that you got a bad batch (which can and does happen to all Manufacturers). I am SURE that you have contacted CProducts about the issue instead of just jumping on the internet to complain. Right?
So you're saying I should just shut up, and let people be in blissful ignorance about quality control problems with CP mags, and the apparent sup-par performance of the Marlube finish (when compared to teflon). Hmmmm well then no one would ever hear that CP has problems, just like D&H ;)
It seems that when a CP mag has a problem, and someone posts about it, defenders of CP always say "why didn't you just call Larry?" But when someone posts about D&H mag with a problem people go "wow, thanks for posting about those crappy mags so everyone knows about'em." Yes, I've seen that exact scenario unfold on AR115.com. That's a dbl standard. Problems with any product or manufacturer should be discussed openly, with no "peer pressure" to just shut the f up.
And btw, did I call your original CP stainless mag review "marketing for CP?" No, so why accuse me of just "complaining" about my mags? I received 2 sub-standard mags (in regards to fit finish and/or function). Both were CP mags, one was stainless.
I simply contributed my experience to the review (this is an open forum and that should happen), and I shared my first hand experience (backed up with pictures). This info is as relevant to consumers as your original post was ;)
While I'm sure Larry would be thrilled if every person who had problems with CP mags contacted him INSTEAD of letting the AR-15 community know about it, I think I'll just go ahead and let folks know. Sharing info like this is what the forum is about.
Originally posted by c4igrant
For the record, I have gone through about 100 CProducts SS mags and not seen any of the finish issues shown here. This leads me to believe that you got a bad batch and am sure that Larry will correct the mistake.?
Twice now you've said it must have been a bad batch. I don't believe that's the case. I would believe that if both mags were the same kind, but they aren't.
I assume CP runs their manufacturing process in batches, and that the batches are divided into aluminum and stainless -- therefore it's unlikely the mags would be combined during the coating process. I'll even admit this is speculation on my part ;)
And regardless of the speculation about batches, the defects on both mags are slightly different, not quite similar enough (to me anyways) to imply it's the exact same problem (something unusual in manufacturing).
I'm sure Larry would take care of these messed up mags, no doubt about it in my mind. Just because a manufacture will fix a problem is no reason not to let other consumers know about the problem – I like the idea of 'informed consumers.'
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 15:16 Originally posted by Veritas
Hmm, always humorous to see someone say something to the effect "yes that's the wise thing to do, but of course it doesn't apply to me" ;) This ain't about you Grant, it's about reviewing CP mags. Like I said, you might be God's gift to retail, and it wouldn't matter. In fact, let's all agree that Grant is the hypothetical God of internet retailers and keep this thread about the mags ;)
The reason that I brought up the point that I am not like other dealers, is that you TRIED to imply that I was selling a product that wasn't all that good simply because I could make money on it. This is why I had to set the record straight.
Prettier? If "prettier" translates to "it stays on the damn mag better" then yes, I like prettier ;) The finish ranking from best to worst seems to be A) Teflon B) Marlube, when applied correctly C) Dry film.
That is prettier. Most folks that are serious about their gear (Military/LE/Personal Defense oriented Civy's) don't care about how things "look", but how they perform. If you want "pretty" mags then stick with teflon.
I agree, Marlube is very similar to the dry film finish. It appears to be only a marginal improvement. A stainless CP mag with Marlube may be slick, but the finish still kinda sucks when compared to a D&H aluminum mag with Teflon.
I can stuff a Telfon mag in the magwell all day, and it shows zero scratched. Marlube shows noticeable wear after 2 insertions. That does not bode well for the longevity of the Marlube finish, in comparison to Teflon.
Not sure why the finish is more important than the functionality. D&H mags are pretty good, but are NOT USGI mags and exhibit some issues that could lead or do lead to functionality issues (SS springs, 3rd tier green followers, sharp feed lips). I personally would rather have a more reliable out of the box mag, than a mag that will remain "pretty" for a longer period of time.
It ain't about pretty, its' about how long will the finish protect the mag. Time will tell if this is a decent finish, but the initial reports I've been hearing, as well as my experience, says it isn't all that great.
Hmm, interesting. The Military uses a dry film finish. They are also the hardest on mags. It would appear that protecting the outside appearance of a magazine is VERY low on their priority list. Maybe we could learn from what is more important to them.
So you're saying I should just shut up, and let people be in blissful ignorance about quality control problems with CP mags, and the apparent sup-par performance of the Marlube finish (when compared to teflon). Hmmmm well then no one would ever hear that CP has problems, just like D&H ;)
What you have done is a common problem I find all over the internet gun forums. Customer "A" gets a product and it has a problem. Believing that everything should be perfect 100% of the time and that mistakes never happen, they proceed to tell the world (via the internet) that said product sucks and people are foolish for buying it.
Prospective customer "B" reads the thread from customer "A" and thinks the product is junk and finds another alternative (which is actually worse than the product he was going to buy). Come to find out that there was a bad batch of products that came out, but it was a very rare mistake and has been addressed and resolved. Now customer "A" has done a great disservice to his fellow shooters by leading them to believe that everything that company puts out sucks. When in actuality the company puts out a quality product 98% of the time and quickly fixes the other 2%.
If you look at the pics I posted, the mags I have do not look anything like mags you posted. I have also gone through more than 100 of the SS mags and none of them look like the mags you got. So this would lead me to believe that you got some mags that were improperly finished and is an isolated case. Notifying the company of the issue so they can check their QC process is correct thing to do. Posting pics, not contacting the manufacturer and trying to make people believe that the products sucks is NOT THE CORRECT thing to do.
It seems that when a CP mag has a problem, and someone posts about it, defenders of CP always say "why didn't you just call Larry?"
This is what you should do with ANY manufacturer.
But when someone posts about D&H mag with a problem people go "wow, thanks for posting about those crappy mags so everyone knows about'em."
How people have attacked D&H is done in poor taste as well and don't agree with it. I have addressed some of those posts on ARFCOM and is why I am setting you straight as well (two wrongs don't make a right).
Yes, I've seen that exact scenario unfold on AR115.com. That's a dbl standard. Problems with any product or manufacturer should be discussed openly, with no "peer pressure" to just shut the f up.
It is a double standard and shouldn't be that way. Read my above comments about how to properly handle a problem with a manufacturer. If you don't want to read the scenario again, here it is in four easy steps:
1. Contact the manufacturer!
2. Resolve the problem and make it clear that you are not happy.
3. If the company does NOT help you THEN come onto the internet and tell the world that the company snubbed you. This IS being a good, informative shooter to your brother and sisters in arms.
4. If the company fixed the problem and you are happy and someone asks for opinions on said product, you tell them what happened (got a bad product and the company corrected it).
And btw, did I call your original CP stainless mag review "marketing for CP?" No, so why accuse me of just "complaining" about my mags? I received 2 sub-standard mags (in regards to fit finish and/or function). Both were CP mags, one was stainless.
You tried to imply that my review was not to be trusted. I would say that your opinion is not be trusted as you have only come into contact with two C Products mags.
I simply contributed my experience to the review (this is an open forum and that should happen), and I shared my first hand experience (backed up with pictures). This info is as relevant to consumers as your original post was ;)
See my above comments on how to properly handle receiving a bad product.
While I'm sure Larry would be thrilled if every person who had problems with CP mags contacted him INSTEAD of letting the AR-15 community know about it, I think I'll just go ahead and let folks know. Sharing info like this is what the forum is about.
Larry would be thrilled and so would the shooting community. Your post has most likely scared some folks off from getting one of the best mags on the market.
Twice now you've said it must have been a bad batch. I don't believe that's the case. I would believe that if both mags were the same kind, but they aren't.
It is 100% likely that they are out of the same batch. Reason? They most likely coat SS mags and Alum. at the same time. As I stated, I have now handled over 100 mags and none of them look like yours.
I assume CP runs their manufacturing process in batches, and that the batches are divided into aluminum and stainless -- therefore it's unlikely the mags would be combined during the coating process. I'll even admit this is speculation on my part ;)
There is no reason for them to spray the Alum. and SS mags seperately. They could very well be from the same batch.
And regardless of the speculation about batches, the defects on both mags are slightly different, not quite similar enough (to me anyways) to imply it's the exact same problem (something unusual in manufacturing).
Do not agree.
I'm sure Larry would take care of these messed up mags, no doubt about it in my mind. Just because a manufacture will fix a problem is no reason not to let other consumers know about the problem – I like the idea of 'informed consumers.'
You have mentioned several times about "letting the consumer know" and you are doing a "good thing." It appears to me that you know what your doing is wrong and are trying to make people think the opposite by repeating yourself.
C4
I think there is someone with an agenda here, and it isn't Grant.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 16:02 Thinking something was kind of funny with the above pics, I did my own test. I grabbed a SS mags (that had already gone through T&E) and inserted into a LMT mag well 25 times. I then took pics of both sides of the mag. Wear spots on the mag are where they should be (on top of the catch and on the corners). How Veritas got the mags to wear half way down the mag is beyond me (especially after two insertions).
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/Wear%20on%20SS%20mag.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Mags/wear%20on%20SS%20mag1.JPG
Originally posted by c4igrant
The reason that I brought up the point that I am not like other dealers, is that you TRIED to imply that I was selling a product that wasn't all that good simply because I could make money on it. This is why I had to set the record straight.
Incorrect, that was a different person:
Originally posted by switch625
c4igrant, you have a financial stake in this. I take your comments the same as what I've read in gun rags.
Originally posted by c4igrant
Not sure why the finish is more important than the functionality. D&H mags are pretty good, but are NOT USGI mags and exhibit some issues that could lead or do lead to functionality issues
Finish is not 'more' important, but it is part of the 3Fs (fit, finish and function). You can rank those 3Fs in whatever order that yanks your crank.
Ok, D&H are not USGI, but neither are CP – especially their stainless mags with it's oddball sized follower that is incompatible with USGI standard followers.
Originally posted by c4igrant
If you don't want to read the scenario again, here it is in four easy steps:
1. Contact the manufacturer!
2. Resolve the problem and make it clear that you are not happy.
3. If the company does NOT help you THEN come onto the internet and tell the world that the company snubbed you. This IS being a good, informative shooter to your brother and sisters in arms.
4. If the company fixed the problem and you are happy and someone asks for opinions on said product, you tell them what happened (got a bad product and the company corrected it).
An excellent opinion. Like I said, forums are for sharing information. What a PITA to have to pack up the mags, go to the post office and wait in line, eat shipping costs, and then wait week to get acceptable mags. I see nothing wrong with letting other consumers know about the potential for needing to take all those actions.
Originally posted by c4igrant
You tried to imply that my review was not to be trusted. I would say that your opinion is not be trusted as you have only come into contact with two C Products mags.
You're hypersensitive, I implied no such thing. Everyone should take what I say with a grain of salt (this is the internet after all) and they should also take what you say with a grain of salt, even if you are God's gift to retail… supposedly the only altruistic, non-revenue based retailer I have heard of, one who refuses to sell requested products to his customers. ;) whatever, go on with your bad self and enjoy your stellar rep.
Personally I don't know you, never heard of you, never dealt with you and so I'm going to have the same attitude toward you as I do any other Internet retailer, cautious and respectful skepticism. You may be a 'shooter first' as you claim, but in your sigline you have www.GRtactical.com sales@GRTactical.com, and those links make you money (God I love the smell of Capitalism in the morning!)
Originally posted by c4igrant
There is no reason for them to spray the Alum. and SS mags seperately. They could very well be from the same batch… It is 100% likely that they are out of the same batch. Reason? They most likely coat SS mags and Alum. at the same time. As I stated, I have now handled over 100 mags and none of them look like yours.
The "Henry Ford" principle would dictate that you don't mix components 1/2 way through the assembly process, it is generally less efficient.
For example, separate to manufacture, mix together to paint, separate again to box up. That adds to labor costs significantly. Ford would roll over in his grave. Fact is though, unless you have 1st hand knowledge about their manufacturing process we are both speculating, and you are not 100% sure, at least I admit that.
Also, on AR15.com Larry has stated something to the effect that "every mag is hand inspected, and hand fitted into a magwell to test for function." If that's true you can't hardly get better QC than that, and yet I still got bum mags. Hmmmm
Originally posted by c4igrant
Your post has most likely scared some folks off from getting one of the best mags on the market.
Ummm, no LOL. At best it made them aware of a potential issue.
Originally posted by c4igrant
How people have attacked D&H is done in poor taste as well and don't agree with it. I have addressed some of those posts on ARFCOM and is why I am setting you straight as well (two wrongs don't make a right).
Good luck with that, considering I don't need to be "set straight" Dad. Could you be more condescending to me, or to the community at large? Geesh please. And I never 'bashed CP.' I criticized their marketing practices, and posted my first hand issue with their mags, but that's it.
Originally posted by c4igrant
You have mentioned several times about "letting the consumer know" and you are doing a "good thing." It appears to me that you know what your doing is wrong and are trying to make people think the opposite by repeating yourself.
Hmmm, well you keep repeating that you're some special breed of retailer again and again and again. Also that you have the power and unique knowledge to 'set people straight.' Oh yeah, and you're a shooter first, retailer second (what pays the bills?). And you say you're totally unbiased in regards to a CP review and your subsequent criticisms of my posts (and pictures), even thought you're a retailer selling CP products.
Let's just agree that I'll keep repeating myself, you keep repeating yourself ;)
Originally posted by dport
I think there is someone with an agenda here, and it isn't Grant.
Yeah, it's not the guy selling the product, nope. It must be the consumer. Yeah, that's the ticket! :) A picture is worth 1000 words, go take a look at the pics of my mag, that's no agenda, it's just fact.
Originally posted by dport
I think there is someone with an agenda here, and it isn't Grant. I agree 100%. I think this is the first time somebody has recieved a blemished product and instead of contacting the mfg they just want to whine about it.
I apologize if my statement seems harsh but we all know that there is always a chance of getting subpar products when purchasing over the internet. But I base my choices on first hand experiences and what, more knowledgable, folks have to say.
If I had recieved those mags, I would have simply made a phone call. And rest assured, I know Larry would have made it right. bigg out
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 16:29 Originally posted by biggl35
I agree 100%. I think this is the first time somebody has recieved a blemished product and instead of contacting the mfg they just want to whine about it.
I apologize if my statement seems harsh but we all know that there is always a chance of getting subpar products when purchasing over the internet. But I base my choices on first hand experiences and what, more knowledgable, folks have to say.
If I had recieved those mags, I would have simply made a phone call. And rest assured, I know Larry would have made it right. bigg out
Agree. People that post things like Veritas did are generally doing it for attention. If they were serious about gear and shooting, they would have dealt with the problem professionally IMHO.
I have problems with gear I get all the time (some I sell some I don't). You won't find me running all over the internet screaming that the sky is falling.
C4
Razoreye 05-10-2006, 16:51 Originally posted by Veritas
Grant might be the best guy in the world, great. He could be "Mr. AR-15," fantastic. Fact is that he's a retailer like Bravo or Copes, or Midway, etc. Anytime a retailer is extolling the virtues of their wares one is right to be respectfully cautious about the retailers opinions imho.
Now, back to mags ;)
The pictures I took of my CP mags look VERY different than the pictures that Grant took of his CP mags.
Here's some pics of the CP Stainless mag with Marlube finish I recieved the other day.
Backside after 2 insertions into clean magwell, plenty of scratches already visible:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainless2.jpg
Frontside after 2 insertions, plenty of scratches, and note the bubbling/peeling of the marlube near the mag catch:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainless1.jpg
Let's see that a little closer:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Stainles3.jpg
That stainless mag has only been inserted in the magwell 2x, never fired. The peeling above the magcatch was there when the mag was new in wrapper.
Now on to the CP Aluminum with Marlube finish I recieved recently.
Front side after zero use, no insertions into magwell:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum3.jpg
Miss-applied Marlube on feed lip? Bubbles all over, chipped/peeling off front corner:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum1.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/Alum2.jpg
The Marlube finish seems sub-par in general when compared to teflon. None of the D&H mags I've used, with the teflon coating, have displayed these kind of characteristics (how easily it scratches)
Marlube (when properly applied) does seem a little better than the USGI dry finish, but not as good as teflon. It almost seems like (and behaves like) a paint applied to the mag. As with any new product, time will be the real jury on how this new finish holds up.
As far as function, I still am going to guess that CP and D&H are virtually equivalent.
Originally posted by c4igrant
Agree. People that post things like Veritas did are generally doing it for attention. If they were serious about gear and shooting, they would have dealt with the problem professionally IMHO.
I have problems with gear I get all the time (some I sell some I don't). You won't find me running all over the internet screaming that the sky is falling.
C4 I disagree here. He gave an honest, no b.s. assessment of the product in a review for that product. He didn't interject any opinion that was for or against the mags. Just simple pictures and comments describing said pics. I find it very informing and he did the right thing - documented it. Sure he will probably get replacements at no charge, but if **** goes wrong later then we have previous data to back it up.
I think y'all are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Ahh yes, say something bad about CP mags and get your character attacked, say something nad about D&H and one will typically get praise ;)
"Funny with the pics?" lol
Top left, CP aluminum with bad finish. Loaded in magwell 30 times.
Top right, D&H loaded in magwell enough times that I have no idea how many ;) Maybe 50 or 60.
Bottom right, CP stainless loaded in magwell 30 times.
All were loaded with Lulu. I slapped the Lulu on and off the 2 CP mags a few time, to simulate a couple of range trips.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/3magspost.jpg
The CP mags have fairly bad wear marks and bare metal is visible on both. The D&H has some surface marking on the finish only, no bare metal is visible, no finish is 'worn off' the mag.
The magwell and Lulu were both checked for burs and rough edges, both seemed perfectly fine.
As far as 'blemished mags' go, I only consider the aluminum mag I recieved to be umm, blemished. Defective application of coating would be more like it. The stainless is NOT blemished imho.
The Marlube finish seems to wear like crap, on both my blemished mag, and the unblemished stainless. The CP dry film mag I recieved is exactly as would expect it to be, just fine in all respects.
Finish is part of the 3Fs, CP needs to work on theirs a bit and figure out something that is on par with Teflon. btw, I never criticized the function of CP mags, I'm sure they work fine.
Now feel free to continue your regularly scheduled character attack ;)
Originally posted by c4igrant
People that post things like Veritas did are generally doing it for attention.
Vendors/Retailers who post a review like c4igrant did are generally doing it for marketing/sales.
Hmm, 'general statements' -- gotta love them ;)
I repeat Grant, I never said anything disparaging about your possible motives... well until you started attacting my integrity ;)
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:00 Originally posted by Veritas
Incorrect, that was a different person
You implied the same so I lumped you in with them.
Finish is not 'more' important, but it is part of the 3Fs (fit, finish and function). You can rank those 3Fs in whatever order that yanks your crank.
You mentioned it several times. I think it is the number one thing to you which tells me a lot.
Ok, D&H are not USGI, but neither are CP – especially their stainless mags with it's oddball sized follower that is incompatible with USGI standard followers.
Actually, CP mags are very close (if not better) as they follow the .Mil specs (if the consumer chooses to get them that way).
The SS mags with the Mar-Lube do not follow the traditional specs for mags, but actually offer a better product. The HK mags follow the same principles and ARE being issued to our troops. We may see the C Products SS mags issued to the troops in the future.
An excellent opinion. Like I said, forums are for sharing information. What a PITA to have to pack up the mags, go to the post office and wait in line, eat shipping costs, and then wait week to get acceptable mags. I see nothing wrong with letting other consumers know about the potential for needing to take all those actions.
Forums are a place to hang out and exchange info. They are full of good info and bad info. Posting info on getting 2 bad mags and not contacting the manufacturer is what I would classify as bad info.
You're hypersensitive, I implied no such thing. Everyone should take what I say with a grain of salt (this is the internet after all) and they should also take what you say with a grain of salt, even if you are God's gift to retail… supposedly the only altruistic, non-revenue based retailer I have heard of, one who refuses to sell requested products to his customers. ;) whatever, go on with your bad self and enjoy your stellar rep.
Not sure where you got some of this info, but I will set the record straight (again). I sell products, tons of products in fact. When my customers request gear I sell it to them. When my customers come to me and say I am thinking of buying an ACOG (for instance) I ask them questions to help them ID their needs. This is called customer service.
Personally I don't know you, never heard of you, never dealt with you and so I'm going to have the same attitude toward you as I do any other Internet retailer, cautious and respectful skepticism. You may be a 'shooter first' as you claim, but in your sigline you have www.GRtactical.com sales@GRTactical.com, and those links make you money (God I love the smell of Capitalism in the morning!)
Marketing myself and company is required to sell gear. I am in business to make money. I am also in the business to help people make informed decisions on gear (hopefully getting them what they want and saving them money). Responsible capitalism is how I run G&R.
The "Henry Ford" principle would dictate that you don't mix components 1/2 way through the assembly process, it is generally less efficient.
For example, separate to manufacture, mix together to paint, separate again to box up. That adds to labor costs significantly. Ford would roll over in his grave. Fact is though, unless you have 1st hand knowledge about their manufacturing process we are both speculating, and you are not 100% sure, at least I admit that.
I am not a manufacturer so I cannot comment on how to do things best. I do believe that how they do things is working pretty well (based on the feedback on other forums).
Also, on AR15.com Larry has stated something to the effect that "every mag is hand inspected, and hand fitted into a magwell to test for function." If that's true you can't hardly get better QC than that, and yet I still got bum mags. Hmmmm
I have not seen this quote. They still have employees that don't always put the companies best interests first. This is how bad products get out and is normal.
Ummm, no LOL. At best it made them aware of a potential issue.
Yes, if there is a problem. There is no problem as far as I can see.
Good luck with that, considering I don't need to be "set straight" Dad.
I would disagree. You have done just about everything wrong and are doing a diservice to the shooting community.
Could you be more condescending to me, or to the community at large? Geesh please. And I never 'bashed CP.' I criticized their marketing practices, and posted my first hand issue with their mags, but that's it.
I could be more condescending, but you most likely stil wouldn't understand. You did critisize their marketing and I and others called you on that as well. This should tell you something.
Hmmm, well you keep repeating that you're some special breed of retailer again and again and again. Also that you have the power and unique knowledge to 'set people straight.'
Actually, my customers keep repeating it. No one is repeating what you are saying, but you.
Oh yeah, and you're a shooter first, retailer second (what pays the bills?).
What pays the bills is my DoD job. My shooter first comment simply means that I actually shoot, train and educate myself on all the gear that is available.
And you say you're totally unbiased in regards to a CP review and your subsequent criticisms of my posts (and pictures), even thought you're a retailer selling CP products.
I acknowledged that there is an issue with your mags and that they need to be addressed. My critism of you is because you are doing the same thing that the D&H bashers are doing. I am starting to think that you bought the mags with the intention of trying to make C Products look bad (as you had already critisized them for their marketing strategy.
Let's just agree that I'll keep repeating myself, you keep repeating yourself ;)
You are the only one that is having to defend yourself. I do not need to repeat myself.
Yeah, it's not the guy selling the product, nope. It must be the consumer. Yeah, that's the ticket! :) A picture is worth 1000 words, go take a look at the pics of my mag, that's no agenda, it's just fact. [/B]
A pic is woth a thousand words. Look at the pics I have posted (especailly the ones of the 25 insertions). There are no issues with these mags and you simply got two bad ones.
C4
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:05 Originally posted by Veritas
Vendors/Retailers who post a review like c4igrant did are generally doing it for marketing/sales.
Hmm, 'general statements' -- gotta love them ;)
I repeat Grant, I never said anything disparaging about your possible motives... well until you started attacting my integrity ;)
You are generally correct. Luckily I have customers (end users of G&R Tactical) that verify that isn't how I do things. Gotta love facts!
C4
Originally posted by Veritas
Yeah, it's not the guy selling the product, nope. It must be the consumer. Yeah, that's the ticket! :) A picture is worth 1000 words, go take a look at the pics of my mag, that's no agenda, it's just fact.
Well, I know Grant personally. I have had numerous transactions with him. The last transaction with him I begged him to make a profit off of me. He declined.
I know from personal experience he is a shooter first and a dealer second.
I don't always agree with him, but I do know that when he lists a product he does so because he believes it is the best product available to the shooter.
Personally I think it's FANTASTIC to be arguing (well, criticizing anyways) about the finish. That leads to refinement of the product, advacement and improvement -- it only happens when consumers demand it.
Both CP and D&H mags function great. If the CP stainless mags came with Teflon I'd be agog over how cool they are.
Originally posted by dport
Well, I know Grant personally. I have had numerous transactions with him. The last transaction with him I begged him to make a larger profit off of me. He declined.
I know from personal experience he is a shooter first and a dealer second.
I don't always agree with him, but I do know that when he lists a product he does so because he believes it is the best product available to the shooter.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:12 Originally posted by Veritas
Ahh yes, say something bad about CP mags and get your character attacked, say something nad about D&H and one will typically get praise ;)
"Funny with the pics?" lol
Top left, CP aluminum with bad finish. Loaded in magwell 30 times.
Top right, D&H loaded in magwell enough times that I have no idea how many ;) Maybe 50 or 60.
Bottom right, CP stainless loaded in magwell 30 times.
All were loaded with Lulu. I slapped the Lulu on and off the 2 CP mags a few time, to simulate a couple of range trips.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g223/flashlightforums/3magspost.jpg
The CP mags have fairly bad wear marks and bare metal is visible on both. The D&H has some surface marking on the finish only, no bare metal is visible, no finish is 'worn off' the mag.
The magwell and Lulu were both checked for burs and rough edges, both seemed perfectly fine.
As far as 'blemished mags' go, I only consider the aluminum mag I recieved to be umm, blemished. Defective application of coating would be more like it. The stainless is NOT blemished imho.
The Marlube finish seems to wear like crap, on both my blemished mag, and the unblemished stainless. The CP dry film mag I recieved is exactly as would expect it to be, just fine in all respects.
Finish is part of the 3Fs, CP needs to work on theirs a bit and figure out something that is on par with Teflon. btw, I never criticized the function of CP mags, I'm sure they work fine.
Now feel free to continue your regularly scheduled character attack ;)
The mar-lube finish is SUPPOSED to be similar to the mil-spec dry film finish and will wear, just like the mil-spec finish does. To compare either against teflon finish is not a valid one. The mar lube finish is excellent and like to it over every other finish I have seen to date as it has the feel of dry film, but is not reflective like the black HK and D&H mags.
Just to be sure you understand, no one is attacking you about D&H mags. I have about 50 of them in stock right now and DO sell them. They however are not as good as the SS mags for several reasons (can list if you like).
C4
Well after looking at the pictures, I agree they look terrible. But did they function? I bet they did. Oh well, Im tired of this thread. I have never posted this much to a single thread ever.:shocked:
crowkiller 05-10-2006, 17:18 Question: If a person has a problem with a D&H mag how can they contact the manufacturer(D&H) to get it replaced?
That is the good thing about C products is you can contact them for problems and order your mags straight from manufacturer.All my mags are D&H but Ill be buying C products in the future.I like the idea of being able to deal with the actual maker of the mags and especialy when he has a good rep at making things right.
Veritas I know how it feels to be mad for getting something defective,but it has happend with many of good products.Id would like to know how Cproducts makes it right.
Grant,
So you admit to lumping me in with others.
You admit CP is not mil-spec, just like D&H isn't
You flat out ignored the fact I pointed out you were wrong when you stated your 100% confidence my mags were finished in the same batch. To be correct in your confidence you would have to have 1st hand knowledge of the CP manufacturing process, and apparently you don't.
The fact you cannot flat out admit you're wrong about your earlier statement is telling.
You can admit forums are about sharing info, but make some wild claim that no one should post about problems with a product without first telling the manufacturer. This is America man, we can do things like share our experience without asking permission.
I feel no need to contact Larry, or get these mags replaced, and that's my prerogative. I do desire to share my CP experience with other consumers in the appropriate place, again my prerogative. This could be an isolated incident, and I fully admit that… but if people don't share their experience we'll never know ;)
Obviously you and I have different prerogatives, retailer vs consumer, and you can keep repeating yourself about how you're a special retailer all you want ;)
I never trust the guy who keeps having to tell me how honest he is, the men I know who are truly honest don't ever seem to feel the need to announce it to the world.
We also disagree about who's doing a disservice to the shooting community. Me who wants to share info, or you who seem to want to see it suppressed.
People are surely judging me by this thread, and they are also judging you too Grant.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:22 Originally posted by Veritas
Personally I think it's FANTASTIC to be arguing (well, criticizing anyways) about the finish. That leads to refinement of the product, advacement and improvement -- it only happens when consumers demand it.
Both CP and D&H mags function great. If the CP stainless mags came with Teflon I'd be agog over how cool they are.
Whining about something and not contacting the manufacturer does ZERO GOOD. So that leads to the next question, have you or are you planning on contacting C Products?
C4
Originally posted by crowkiller
Question: If a person has a problem with a D&H mag how can they contact the manufacturer(D&H) to get it replaced?... Veritas I know how it feels to be mad for getting something defective,but it has happend with many of good products.Id would like to know how Cproducts makes it right.
Contact the dealer you bought it from. A comapny like Bravo will take care of you as well as Larry, in my experince.
On the converse, the direct manufacturer thing just shows how small time CP is compared to D&H. I'd have to guess they produce a fraction of the mags that D&H makes, otherwise the direct consumer contact would be overwhelming.
And I'm not mad ;) Just relating my experince. I have no desire to get the mags replaced, to much of a hassel to even deal with. I'm sure CP would do right by me if contacted.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:25 Originally posted by crowkiller
Question: If a person has a problem with a D&H mag how can they contact the manufacturer(D&H) to get it replaced?
That is the good thing about C products is you can contact them for problems and order your mags straight from manufacturer.All my mags are D&H but Ill be buying C products in the future.I like the idea of being able to deal with the actual maker of the mags and especialy when he has a good rep at making things right.
Veritas I know how it feels to be mad for getting something defective,but it has happend with many of good products.Id would like to know how Cproducts makes it right.
Since you cannot buy D&H mags directly, you would have to go back to the dealer to make it right.
Since ALL companies make mistakes, how they handle the mistake is what defines a company IMHO. However, if the person that has a problem NEVER contacts the manufacturer then nothing is ever addressed.
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
Whining about something and not contacting the manufacturer does ZERO GOOD. So that leads to the next question, have you or are you planning on contacting C Products?
C4
::shrug:: I'd rather just go use'em :P
Originally posted by c4igrant
However, if the person that has a problem NEVER contacts the manufacturer then nothing is ever addressed.
So now the only thing you can dig at me with is the fact I don't care about getting the mags replaced? Geesh that's grasping at straws.
It's America, land of the free, if I want to keep and use a defective or sub-par product I can :::singing the star spangled banner:::
;)
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:28 Originally posted by Veritas
Contact the dealer you bought it from. A comapny like Bravo will take care of you as well as Larry, in my experince.
On the converse, the direct manufacturer thing just shows how small time CP is compared to D&H. I'd have to guess they produce a fraction of the mags that D&H makes, otherwise the direct consumer contact would be overwhelming.
And I'm not mad ;) Just relating my experince. I have no desire to get the mags replaced, to much of a hassel to even deal with. I'm sure CP would do right by me if contacted.
This is what I expected (that you wouldn't contact the manufacturer).
There was a guy on ARFCOM that bought an LMT. He stated that he had issues with it. He however would NOT send it back to the dealer or manufacturer. His reason? If he no longer had the LMT upper, then he couldn't complain any more. This is a theme I am seeing more and more (consumer gets a bad product, but keeps it so he can complain every time a pro "whaterver" thread comes up. :upeyes:
C4
RMTactical 05-10-2006, 17:30 D&H and CProducts both put out good stuff for the most part. If you have problems, I'd take it up with the company who made them or possibly the company you bought them from.
As for the SS mags, I'll pass. I am sure they are high quality and all, but I don't see the need in the use of SS over aluminum. They may be a bit more robust, but I want to keep the excess weight off...
Originally posted by c4igrant
This is what I expected (that you wouldn't contact the manufacturer).
There was a guy on ARFCOM that bought an LMT. He stated that he had issues with it. He however would NOT send it back to the dealer or manufacturer. His reason? If he no longer had the LMT upper, then he couldn't complain any more. This is a theme I am seeing more and more (consumer gets a bad product, but keeps it so he can complain every time a pro "whaterver" thread comes up. :upeyes:
C4
I repeat (since I get accused of repeating so much, I might as well actually do it):
So now the only thing you can dig at me with is the fact I don't care about getting the mags replaced? Geesh that's grasping at straws.
It's America, land of the free, if I want to keep and use a defective or sub-par product I can :::singing the star spangled banner:::
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 17:32 Originally posted by Veritas
::shrug:: I'd rather just go use'em :P
Funny as you just stated that you hoped your post would help C Products to improve their products. Now you won't send them back so they can understand what went wrong.
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
Funny as you just stated that you hoped your post would help C Products to improve their products. Now you won't send them back so they can understand what went wrong.
C4
I trust you've done your due diligence as a CP vendor and have informed them of this thread ;)
If not, feel free to do so.
Originally posted by Veritas
People are surely judging me by this thread, and they are also judging you too Grant.
They sure do. That's why he has the highest positive feedback of anyone at arfcom.
Originally posted by GoreLicks
As for the SS mags, I'll pass. I am sure they are high quality and all, but I don't see the need in the use of SS over aluminum. They may be a bit more robust, but I want to keep the excess weight off...
I don't think they're that much more, weight wise. And it appears they allow 30 rounds to be inserted easily with a closed bolt.
That was the reason I was looking at the HK mags, but these are 1/2 the price.
crowkiller 05-10-2006, 18:06 Dude I dont understand why do you not want to send them back?Why keep them if you are not happy?Give the people a chance to make things right its unfair to expect ANY company/product to be perfect every time.Besides its the way a company handle themselves when things go south that defines customer service and shows their integrity.
I think since you have now told the whole internet world what went wrong you should at least make an attempt to let Cproducts redeam themselves.And to lessen the chance of any one else recieving the same finger painted finish.How can they do that if you never let them inspect your mags.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 18:14 Originally posted by GoreLicks
D&H and CProducts both put out good stuff for the most part. If you have problems, I'd take it up with the company who made them or possibly the company you bought them from.
As for the SS mags, I'll pass. I am sure they are high quality and all, but I don't see the need in the use of SS over aluminum. They may be a bit more robust, but I want to keep the excess weight off...
The main reason why the SS mags are superior is simple. You can get 30rds in the mag (with a ranger plate) and get them to EASILY insert on a closed bolt. Of course the feed lips are less likely to be bent, and the mag is less likely to be crushed. The weight difference is NOT noticeable.
C4
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 18:16 Originally posted by Veritas
I trust you've done your due diligence as a CP vendor and have informed them of this thread ;)
If not, feel free to do so.
Done (since you won't do it).
C4
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 19:52 Originally posted by Veritas Grant,
So you admit to lumping me in with others.
Yes, I lump like minded people together.
You admit CP is not mil-spec, just like D&H isn't
If you read what I said, CP mags CAN be mil-spec if the consumer chooses to get the dry film finish and the green follower. You cannot get the dry film finish with the D&H mags and their green followers are from mil-spec.
You flat out ignored the fact I pointed out you were wrong when you stated your 100% confidence my mags were finished in the same batch. To be correct in your confidence you would have to have 1st hand knowledge of the CP manufacturing process, and apparently you don't.
You said that they couldn't be from the same batch. I said they could. We are both just guessing here. It would explain how they both came out with poor finish. This is an easy analogy to make.
The fact you cannot flat out admit you're wrong about your earlier statement is telling.
Since I am not wrong why would I admit to it. You cannot prove anything and nor can I. We are speculating and nothing more.
You can admit forums are about sharing info, but make some wild claim that no one should post about problems with a product without first telling the manufacturer. This is America man, we can do things like share our experience without asking permission.
This is correct. Forums are for sharing info (hopefully good info). The info you are sharing does no one any good. If you believe differently, advise us on how your post helps the average shooter looking for the best mags for the money. You have done nothing but scare them off from what could be the very best mag on the market. This is why you post is a disservice.
I feel no need to contact Larry, or get these mags replaced, and that's my prerogative. I do desire to share my CP experience with other consumers in the appropriate place, again my prerogative. This could be an isolated incident, and I fully admit that… but if people don't share their experience we'll never know ;)
I called you on your agenda awhile ago and know all to well why you won't send them back (then you couldn't whine and complain as CProducts would have corrected the mistake).
Obviously you and I have different prerogatives, retailer vs consumer, and you can keep repeating yourself about how you're a special retailer all you want ;)
As I said earlier, I don't need to (my customers do that for me). Your perogative is to scare people away from a good mag because you got a bad one (sorry bad two).
I never trust the guy who keeps having to tell me how honest he is, the men I know who are truly honest don't ever seem to feel the need to announce it to the world. [/quote
Once again, I don't have to do that. My customers do that for me. Some folks questioned my motives for doing a review and I explained why. If another member wouldn't have questioned my intention, you would have never heard me say anything.
[quote]We also disagree about who's doing a disservice to the shooting community. Me who wants to share info, or you who seem to want to see it suppressed.
What service are you providing. If no one buys another C Products mag and they go out of business, does that help? The civy consumer has about 2 options right now for a constant supply of mags. They are HK and D&H. C Products is the new kid on the market, but they are doing things that the other two companies are not. It appears to me that you would like to remove them as an option for your fellow shooter. I look forward to hearing why you think you are donig a service to the shooting community.
People are surely judging me by this thread, and they are also judging you too Grant. [/B]
I have no problem with that. I am VERY well known for being one of the most reputable, informed dealers on the net.
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
I called you on your agenda awhile ago and know all to well why you won't send them back (then you couldn't whine and complain as CProducts would have corrected the mistake).
You are truly clueless.
This is not about what CP would do if I contacted them, it's about what they already did in regards to products that hit the shelve.
If you cannot understand that, well then you're not only clueless you're hopeless too ;)
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 20:11 Originally posted by Veritas
You are truly clueless.
This is not about what CP would do if I contacted them, it's about what they already did in regards to products that hit the shelve.
If you cannot understand that, well then you're not only clueless you're hopeless too ;)
What is even more "clueless" is that you can't seem to understand that EVERY company puts out a product that is bad. How a company fixes the mistake is what defines them. If YOU cannot understand that then YOU need a reality check.
Interesting how you don't answer the question about what your post informs or gives back to the shooting community. I look forward to your comments.
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
What is even more "clueless" is that you can't seem to understand that EVERY company puts out a product that is bad. How a company fixes the mistake is what defines them. If YOU cannot understand that then YOU need a reality check.
Clueless is your inabilty to actually comprehend what I have written.
I have stated several times (on this thread and your RRA bashing thread) that every large scale manufacturer of products will occasionally produce out of spec units.
I have conceded (granted) the fact that CP would indeed take care of this problem if I choose to contact them. Their track record of that is fairly well known... some of their mags have problems (just like D&H), and when they do replacements are provided (sometimes shipping is covered, sometimes not). If you cannot understand the rhetorical device, of conceding a point, then back to school with you ;)
How they would resolve this this issue (replacing the mags) isn't the problem. The point of my post is a critique of the Marlube finish and the QC at CP, and that fits in well with a review of the new stainless mag, it is a valid point.
BTW grant, when I said that "I never trust the guy who keeps having to tell me how honest he is, the men I know who are truly honest don't ever seem to feel the need to announce it to the world" that was an analogy in a sense, I think you missed the meaning.
I was alluding to your constant protestations about how you're a different breed of retailer. If you truly were, then I suspect you wouldn't feel the need to keep trying to make it seem like a fact by constantly repeating it, and tooting your own horn about it.
So let's assume you're a sharp guy (I'm willing to do that), and you did know what I meant. Your reply was:
Originally posted by c4igrant
Once again, I don't have to do that (my customers do that for me).
I call BS, that's a downright lie. You repeatedly claimed (you yourself, in your own words) repeatedly made that exact claim. See below:
Originally posted by c4igrant
Another thing that seperates me from many of my fellow dealers, is that I am a shooter first and a dealer second. What that means is that I ONLY stock gear that I believe is quality.
Originally posted by c4igrant
Most of my fellow dealers only stock gear that they believe they can make money on and most likely don't even use it. How some dealers recommend gear that they have never personally used just blows my mind.
Originally posted by c4igrant
You are correct that buyers need to be aware of manufacturers and dealers telling everyone that product A is the best and product B sucks. This rule however doesn't apply to me as I don't play that game.
Nice delusions you have there, now you are claiming not to have said that which you have clearly said ;)
You are effectively bad mouthing almost every other dealer in existance, claiming that not a one can live up to your super-stellar level of excellence and genuiness. Good luck with that.
Well let's explore another of Grant's points, since he's apparently such authority on all things AR.
I have said that the Teflon finish stays on the mag better than the Marlube finish, based on my experince. It simply stays on the damn mag better, affording more protection over time. It would seem to be a desirable trait, duh ;)
Grant's response was :
Originally posted by c4igrant
That is prettier. Most folks that are serious about their gear (Military/LE/Personal Defense oriented Civy's) don't care about how things "look", but how they perform. If you want "pretty" mags then stick with teflon… Not sure why the finish is more important than the functionality.
According to your logic, finish is fairly irrelevant. Therefore, it would be ok to have an AR that has a bare aluminum reciever (unanodized). So long as it functioned ok, right? I mean the finish is just for 'purdyness,' right pardner?
Your logic sucks dude.
Personally I think the finish is there to afford some level of 1)protection and 2)lubrication. Now I'm not a super-dude vender who works for the DoD in his spare time (or even vice versa), I'm just an average consumer, so maybe I'm wrong about that ;)
I am not saying finish is the be-all to end-all, I never even said it was more important than function (or equal to) but it is a factor in the equation. You can call me a pansy 6 ways from Sunday by saying I like pretty mags, in an attempt to invalidate my posts, but I stick by my belief that finish is important.
About Grant's "pushing a product" thing.
Please note this thread.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=537751
Notice that he is an LMT deal, but tells people to stay away from an LMT product and then tells why they should.
He could have just said, "They are AWESOME, now send me a check!", but didn't.
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 21:10 Originally posted by Veritas
Clueless is your inabilty to actually comprehend what I have written.
I have stated several times (on this thread and your RRA bashing thread) that every large scale manufacturer of products will occasionally produce out of spec units.
I have conceded (granted) the fact that CP would indeed take care of this problem if I choose to contact them. Their track record of that is fairly well known... some of their mags have problems (just like D&H), and when they do replacements are provided (sometimes shipping is covered, sometimes not). If you cannot understand the rhetoric device, of conceding a point, then back to school with you ;)
How they would resolve this this issue (replacing the mags) isn't the problem. The point of my post is a critique of the Marlube finish and the QC at CP, and that fits in well with a review of the new stainless mag, it is a valid point.
BTW grant, when I said that "I never trust the guy who keeps having to tell me how honest he is, the men I know who are truly honest don't ever seem to feel the need to announce it to the world" that was an analogy in a sense, I think you missed the meaning.
I was alluding to your constant protestations about how you're a different breed of retailer. If you truly were, then I suspect you wouldn't feel the need to keep trying to make it seem like a fact by constantly repeating it, and tooting your own horn about it.
So let's assume you're a sharp guy (I'm willing to do that), and you did know what I meant. Your reply was:
I call BS, that's a downright lie. You repeatedly claimed (you yourself, in your own words) repeatedly made that exact claim. See below:
Nice delusions you have there, now you are claiming not to have said that which you have clearly said ;)
You are effectively bad mouthing almost every other dealer in existance, claiming that not a one can live up to your super-stellar level of excellence and genuiness. Good luck with that.
So many issues and comments that are incorrect. Which one should I attack first?? Let's start with the RRA. I have a RRA dealer account. I personally own RRA. They (RRA put out a crappy product every day) that they could fix easily. This is what I bash them for.
Let's cover some facts:
1. You bad mouthed CP on pg one about their advertising strategy.
2. You then went out and bought said product (not sure why as you didn't care for how the company does business).
3. You state that you posted the pics so that CP could learn from their mistakes, but yet won't send the mags back to them for examination. This does not make sense.
4. You state that you are doing the shooting community a service. I called you on this and asked you to provide detailed info as to what service you are providing. Still waiting for an answer.
Your analogy was pointed at me (plain as day) and I answered it. I stated in 1-2 posts about how I choose products and how I do not sell gear that I believe to be less than stellar. We are now on pg 4 of this thread. I would not call stating my background and how I run my business in 1-2 posts as "constant."
I stated that I didn't know how dealers could sell and recommend products that they don't even use or no next to nothing about. I did NOT say all or most.
Please stop wasting BW by trying to imply things that are not there and or putting words in my mouth.
C4
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 21:23 Originally posted by Veritas
Well let's explore another of Grant's points, since he's apparently such authority on all things AR.
Back with putting words in my mouth. Never claimed to be an authority, but thanks for the plug!
I have said that the Teflon finish stays on the mag better than the Marlube finish, based on my experince. It simply stays on the damn mag better, affording more protection over time. It would seem to be a desirable trait, duh ;)
Finish on a mag is the DEAD last thing that is important. Functionality is number 1 and 2 on the priority list as most malfunctions are caused by mags.
Grant's response was :
According to your logic, finish is fairly irrelevant.
Yes ON A AR MAGAZINE!
Therefore, it would be ok to have an AR that has a bare aluminum reciever (unanodized).
This is your logic not mine. Magazines are expendable items (throw aways) to be changed out periodically. AR lowers and upper receivers are not.
So long as it functioned ok, right? I mean the finish is just for 'purdyness,' right pardner?
We are discussing mags, not AR's.
Your logic sucks dude.
This is classic! You take what I have said about mags and then apply it to AR's! How about you attach my comments to cars and boats next!
Personally I think the finish is there to afford some level of 1)protection and 2)lubrication. Now I'm not a super-dude vender who works for the DoD in his spare time (or even vice versa), I'm just an average consumer, so maybe I'm wrong about that ;)
The finish is to provide SOME protection and lube for easier insertion. It isn't high on the priority list unless your a safe queen.
I am not saying finish is the be-all to end-all, I never even said it was more important than function (or equal to) but it is a factor in the equation. [/qyote]
Are you sure about that. You have been carrying on about the finish issues for several pages now. I think it is most likely the number one important thing to you (which again says a lot). I mean why else would you bother with all the complaining???
[quote]You can call me a pansy 6 ways from Sunday by saying I like pretty mags, in an attempt to invalidate my posts, but I stick by my belief that finish is important. [/B]
Actually, I wouldn't call you a pansy. A safe queen yes, but a pansy no. I would advise you to NEVER take a training class. Mags and gear get dropped, thrown and beat on. You beloved "pretty mags" would no longer be of value to you.
C4
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 21:26 Originally posted by epsylum
About Grant's "pushing a product" thing.
Please note this thread.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=537751
Notice that he is an LMT deal, but tells people to stay away from an LMT product and then tells why they should.
He could have just said, "They are AWESOME, now send me a check!", but didn't.
Damn you caught me! Yes, I seperate the good products a company sells from the bad.
While I appreciate the post, I am 100% certain that veritas doesn't get it and you are wasting your time (as am I).
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
1. You bad mouthed CP on pg one about their advertising strategy.
2. You then went out and bought said product (not sure why as you didn't care for how the company does business).
3. You state that you posted the pics so that CP could learn from their mistakes, but yet won't send the mags back to them for examination. This does not make sense.
4. You state that you are doing the shooting community a service. I called you on this and asked you to provide detailed info as to what service you are providing. Still waiting for an answer... Please stop wasting BW by trying to imply things that are not there and or putting words in my mouth.
C4
1)Yup, CP has a fairly slimy marketing strategy imho, but very effective.
2)Yup, someone on this thread made the suggestion to go buy a few and then judge… so I did. In fact I will probably by a few more stainless mags just to stash away in case another ban comes back (because I do believe they are more durable over all).
3)All they need to do is look at the pics. What else are they gonna do, run a spectrum analysis on the paint? :P
4)I provided valid 1st hand information, which is what forums are for, duh.
And lastly, no one's putting words in your mouth, you're more than capable of that yourself ;)
c4igrant 05-10-2006, 21:38 Originally posted by Veritas
1)Yup, CP has a fairly slimy marketing strategy imho, but very effective.
2)Yup, someone on this thread made the suggestion to go buy a few and then judge… so I did. In fact I will probably by a few more stainless mags just to stash away in case another ban comes back (because I do believe they are more durable over all).
3)All they need to do is look at the pics. What else are they gonna do, run a spectrum analysis on the paint? :P
4)I provided valid 1st hand information, which is what forums are for, duh.
And lastly, no one's putting words in your mouth, you're more than capable of that yourself ;)
Reply's:
1. Proof? Or is just your impression?
2. I am sure you listened to me. :freak:
3. I don't know, why don't you call and ask them? You said yourself that your just am "average Joe" so what you could you know about the manufacturing process?
4. What valid information did you provide? What myths, rumors or lies did you expose. You posted pics of some mags that escaped the QC process and nothing more.
Next group of questions since you tried to skirt question 4.
1. Do you think you invalidated my review of the C Products SS mag?
2. Do you think my review of the SS mags is inaccurate in any way?
3. Do you think that people shouldn't buy this mag because it has issues on a large scale?
4. What help do you think you have given to the shooting community by posting your pics?
C4
LOL, you're a riot Grant, and this thread |