Anyone have a fake 91/30 sniper?

[G26man]

Today at a gun show I purchased a Mosin Nagant 91/30 sniper rifle for $350. I've found through research tonight that it is not a genuine artifact, but one assembled from a standard 91/30 rifle with the correct mount, PU scope and modified bolt handle. The 91/30 itself is an early (1929) numbers matching example in nice condition.

I've also found out that the genuine snipers run $700+ and the "manufactured" one's like I have commonly run around the price I paid, so I don't think I was really ripped off. What I would like to know however is does anyone else have one of these things and how accurate are they? I have not shot it yet but the trigger feels nice.

It's actually for my son's 18th birthday/graduation present and I am not going to shoot it because I want him to have the experience of cleaning the cosmo out and sighting it in, etc.

Any shared experiences are appreciated.

[goblue]

No experience in the category. Generally I like my Mosins. I have a 91/30 which I haven't even fired yet.

I am pretty sure I saw some "sniper" configs at www.aimsurplus.com in the last week or so. Probably in the same price range as you are talking about.

[kf4zra]

i just bought one today that is an ex-sniper. it is a 1939 tula, with the "C N" in cyrillics above the star, as well as plugged holes where the mount was. got it NIB for $80 inc all the shiite that comes with them (bayo, oil bottle, sling etc) :)

[G26man]

Wow that's a good price. The regular 91/30s were going for $99 at this show, I don't know if any were ex-snipers. I wonder why in the world some snipers were de-evolved back into standard 91/30s? Seems like a dumb move to me.

Your 91/30 should shoot great since original snipers were chosen for their inherent accuracy and it should have a great trigger unless the trigger group was replaced.

[nognig]

I think a bunch of ex-sniper 91/30s have hit the market recently. SOG and AIM both have them for ~$350 now.

That's almost 1/2 of what they used to be!

NN

[m2hmghb]

AIM surplus is sold out, anyone know anyplace else to get a fake sniper with a good bore for around 300-500 dollars?

[G26man]

I called AIM regarding there's and they are the exact same as mine, not original snipers but assembled "post war". These were recently imported but there were only 400 of them total. I asked him if there was any rhyme or reason to which 91/30s were chosen (i.e. selected for accuracy, etc.) for the conversions and he said no one knows its too early to tell.

If any one has always wanted a sniper I would jump on one of these, there may not be any more when these are gone.

[G26man]

Originally posted by m2hmghb
AIM surplus is sold out, anyone know anyplace else to get a fake sniper with a good bore for around 300-500 dollars?

Wow I just talked to them this morning and he said they wouldn't last long!

Call Classic Arms 704-238-8122 that's who I bought mine from.

http://www.classicarms.us/

[m2hmghb]

Hes out already. Wonder if century arms has any.

[sharpshooter]

The real PU snipers were selected for their accuracy. I read they shot 20 rifles and set the most accurate aside to be transformed into a sniper.

These new fake snipers are just assembled from a standard rifle picked at random and then they add post war production mounts and scopes. They might be accurate, they might not. Who knows? You won't find hardly a single range report on the internet anywhere because... well, I still can't figure that out. Why won't anybody post a range report?

I suspect because these rifle are no more accurate than any random 91/30 and people are embarassed that they spent $400 on a fake sniper that doesn't even shoot well.

[nognig]

Originally posted by G26man
I called AIM regarding there's and they are the exact same as mine, not original snipers but assembled "post war".

That pisses me off!.

I don't remember reading in the SOG ad or on AIM's website that these were just regular 91/30s that had the original scope and mount.

That would explain why they are so much cheaper!

NN

[G26man]

Originally posted by sharpshooter
These new fake snipers are just assembled from a standard rifle picked at random and then they add post war production mounts and scopes.
Can you provide your source for this information? Do you know what outfit actually did the conversions? The place I bought mine from says the scope included was the same one it was sighted in and test fired with by the overseas armorer that did the conversion. If they went to the trouble to do that they may have put some effort into picking accurate rifles to begin with. Mine came with a full page form with numbers typed in in several places and I don't know what any of it means because it is in Russian, but it's possible it might be some sort of accuracy verification. I don't know either way but I think its not correct to just assume they are random samples either.

Also, $350 is a steal even if it is a run of the mill 91/30. Check into the cost of the original mount and scope, not to mention the new bolt handle and smith work to drill, tap, and mount everything correctly. Check www.surplusrifle.com, this guy built one himself and this is what it cost him:

Here is a project cost breakdown minus shipping:

Rifle – http://www.aimsurplus.com - $59.95

Scope mount – ebay - $227.50

Scope – ebay – $154.52

Sniper bolt body – http://www.buymilsurp.com - $69.00

Total cost - $510.97

I'm feeling pretty good about my purchase. :)

[sharpshooter]

First of all, the going price of real PU snipers is around $700 last time I checked, while the fakes get between $350 and $450. These "fakes" have been around for at least a couple of years and people are still getting tricked into thinking they are real snipers. Do your homework on some of the curio and relic web forums and you'll see for yourself. They may look authentic, and they may be assembled from "authentic" post war production parts, but they are not the real thing.

I did a lot of research before I finally decided to just build my own. I found a pristine all matching un-issued non-refurb 1939 91/30 on sale at Big 5 for $79.99 and built it into a bastardized PU replica because it shot so well with iron sights. Same look, but it shoots better than any real PU sniper I've ever heard of. It regularly shoots about 3/4" at 100 yards with Sellier & Bellot 174gr BTHP match ammo, 3-shot groups. Mount is an I/O reproduction PU, and the scope is a modern Burris 4x20 compact. The bolt was cut, bent, extended, and welded back on. The whole project was under $400 and that's including a new $165 scope.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/benclawson/MN101.jpg

[G26man]

Nice rifle sharpshooter. I prefer the PU type scope though. :)

When did I say I thought mine was the real thing? If you read my first post you'll see I already know what the going prices of the WW2 vs post war snipers are. I don't expect a WW2 sniper for half the price, just like I wouldn't expect an IBM M1 Carbine for the price of a quality post war model made with genuine parts, but I would be happy with such a rifle for a fair price just as I am happy with this one.

I have to ask again how do you know that the 91/30s chosen for these post war snipers were not test fired for accuracy? Especially this recent import? Was it someone's opinion on another forum? I'm not trying to be a jerk I really would like to know. Do you happen to know what Russian arsenal assembled and test fired these? I have a document in Russian that came with mine listing all sorts of specifications. As of yet I don't know if any of them refer to accuracy though.

[m2hmghb]

Finally found one. Its on its way, should arrive at my FFL on tuesday. The waiting is going to suck, guess I better break it to my other 2 nagants gently.

[sharpshooter]

I have a document in Russian that came with mine listing all sorts of specifications. Yeah I know. I'm the one that translated it for you on GNG yesterday when you posted this document. :) That document has nothing to do with the rifle, it's just a list of the dimensons and specifications for the SCOPE. Plus, that part at the end says something about 1928. We both know the Russians didn't start building PU snipers until about 1941, so I don't know what that last date refers to. Possibly some sort of patent or something? But that document is NOT a certification of authenticity for an assembled PU sniper rifle.

Check out these forums and the info these guys have. Read the posts by Marcus particularly. Then read all the other C&R boards and confirm his info with everybody else's info. Don't take my word for it.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=162038

O.K., what I'm going to reveal to you here are the deepest, darkest secrets and mysteries of the Gunboards "Secret Sniper Club", and you have to promise not to reveal them to any outsider unless you are asked, or the subject comes up in firearms related conversation...or if you just feel like talking about it while you are watching our Holy Gospel, "Enemy At The Gates".

The first thing is to realize that the vast, almost complete, majority of Mosin sniper rifles currently available on the market are blatent and dishonest fakes, and the situation will only get worse as the market is flooded with the fairly accurate replicas being cranked out in the Ukraine. Right now, the most common fake is the PU rifle, but there are also replica PE rifles being made and imported from the Ukraine, and some very devious and dishonest fakers here (such as LittleNosh/Lichtvonbahir/gunsales/guntown or Palisades) are creating fakes of all models, including the sidemount PE/PEM rifles. The fake PU's are even being listed for sale as originals on the Gunboards Trader and Culver's Shooting Page (jouster.com) by dealers who know their rifles aren't real (they know 'cause I told 'em so), but are willing to sell their integrity and reputation for a couple quick and dishonest bucks.

IF ANYONE HERE HAS ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE GENUINENESS OF ANY MOSIN SNIPER RIFLE OFFERED FOR SALE HERE OR ON ANY OTHER COLLECTORS FORUM OR AUCTION SITE, FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME AND I WILL GLADLY GIVE YOU MY HONEST AND HIGHLY ACCURATE ASSESSMENT AND APPRAISAL OF THE RIFLE. (Hint: any PU scope that the serial number starts with a Cyrillic letter that looks like a "y" is a fake)

Anyhow, here is my assessment on the various ways one may become the proud and happy owner of a genuine Soviet Mosin-Nagant sniper rifle.

1. Samco Global Arms. As mentioned above, Samco has genuine original PU rifles for sale. These are real Soviet WW2 production PU snipers that were sent to Tito's communist partisans in 1944. After the war, these rifles were put into storage and the scopes and mounts were removed, stored separately or used on Mauser snipers, and have subsequently disappeared or were destroyed in the psychopathic sex offender "B.J." Clinton's vicious and criminal "War of Monica's Stained Blue Dress" in which this deviate rapist laid waste to Yugoslavia in an attempt to distract attention from his domestic crimes by committing foreign war crimes. Anyhow, 2 years ago, Samco's buyers located around 200 or so of these rifles in storage in a military facility in one of the former Yugoslav republics and imported them into the U.S. These are the most original condition and configuration Mosin snipers that have been available in any quantity, with the best of them being pristine, near mint examples that look like they they did in the spring of 1944. I bought 20 of them, packed 10 each in their original Yugo arsenal transit and storage chests, when they were first imported and still have 5 in my collection, and these are truly outstanding rifles. However, as Boltslapper mentioned, they may be getting down to the bottom of the barrel on these...other forum members have reported similar incidents. Still, even with problems like the one just described, if the rifle has a good shootable bore, it is still quite a deal at the price and quite collectable, as the bolt and stock are worth the price of the entire rifle. These rifles need only a scope and mount setup to return them to their original WW2 sniper configuration. They have proved very popular with members of this forum, and many outstanding examples can be observed in a recent message thread on this forum titled "Show Your Samco Snipers!". Also, these sometimes come up for sale on the Trader when fellow collectors make the mistake of cutting loose with one, and have a unique and distinct appearance compared to the post-war Soviet refurbed rifles that makes them instantly recognizable. A "Wanted To Buy" ad on the Trader for a nice Samco sniper might produce some positive results...it's worth a try, anyhow. As RPF mentioned, all you need is an original PU scope and mount setup (or even a replica) and you can be playing Vassily Zaitzev for $600 to $700.

2. Military Gun Supply (MGS), in Fort Worth, Texas. Phone: (817)457-6000. These are great people to deal with; I myself have purchased a number of items from them including 3 nice Chatellerault M91's, a Polish refurbished Soviet 91/30 PU rifle, and some original Mosin sniper bolts. They are a Gunboards sponsor who helps make all this priceless and otherwise unobtainable information available to us by supporting this site, and sometime have special deals or prices that are available only to Gunboards members, so please show your appreciation by letting them know you heard about them on Gunboards when you place your order! I just got off the phone with the good folks at MGS, and here is what I was told is currently available:
RESTORED EX-SNIPERS: These are genuine PU snipers that had the scope setups removed and were converted to standard 91/30 configuration after the 91/30 snipers were replaced by the Dragunov as the Soviet Unions main sniper rifle. These rifles have been returned to sniper configuration by converting the stocks and bolts from standart to sniper style, and the rifles have been fitted with genuine Soviet WW2 production PU scopes and mounts and new production ( Russian or Ukrainian made) alloy bases (original bases are quite scarce and hard to find). Remember, these are genuine original Soviet PU sniper rifle barrels, receivers, scopes, and mounts, and thus these can legitimately be called restored snipers, not replicas or reproduction snipers. Price is $599, with handpick fees being $10 for Tula or $20 for specific year. This is a deal, friends! As I recall, MGS also tries to match the year of the scope and rifle when they assemble these.
SCOPELESS SNIPERS!!!!! I don't have the full details on these yet (meaning that I haven't either personally examined one or discussed one with another of my learned colleagues here), but if the info I got on these is correct, this seems like a smoking deal! I was told they have some original configuration sniper rifles that are missing the scope mount setups but have the sniper bolt, stock, and correct holes in the receiver. These are not rifles purchased from Samco, but their exact origin is not known. Get this: Price is $109.00!!! If these are real, this isn't a deal, this is a STEAL!!! I was told, and specifically asked again to make sure, that these are not "ex"-snipers, but scopeless snipers. Someone needs to check this out in person or order one of these and let us know for sure.
EX-SNIPERS: I think MGS also sometimes offers the popular and well-known "ex"-snipers that were defurbished by the Soviets to standard infantry rifle configuration, as discussed above. Hopefully these aren't the rifles I was told were scopeless snipers, but even if they are, they are still a deal and a good way to build up a restored original sniper. MGS has the above mentioned original WW2 Soviet PU scopes and mounts with reproduction bases available at a good price (I think there might be a special price for Gunboards members; it never hurts to ask) that can be used to return these to sniper status. Ex-sniper + original scope and mount + trip to the snipersmith = restored genuine WW2 PU sniper rifle!

3. Restored ex-snipers. I already covered this pretty well above when discussing MGS, but there are other sources for these rifles. Aztec Arms might still have a few...I bought a lot of these from them when they first imported all those refurbished rifles from the Ukraine. My friend John Jones, who was the manager of Aztec at the time, would very graciously search for and hand select premium examples of the various model, year, and arsenal PE, PEM, and PU snipers for members of this board, myself included. Aztec's quality and service were legendary. I think Aztec is out of everything except '43 or '44 Izhevsk PU ex-snipers, but it never hurts to ask. I think they are currently around $129 and I don't know what is currently available as far as grade and condition. Many lucky board members have found excellent (and often very rare and valuable) ex-snipers in the rack at their local sporting goods store like Big 5, gunshop, or at gunshows. You always want to check the inside of the left receiver rail on a good looking 91/30 rifle for those tell-tale plugged holes, you never know what you will find. Gunboards sponsors Allan's Armory and Empire arms also sometimes come up with nice ex-snipers, and I recommend contacting them to see what they have or may be able to locate.

4. Genuine, original WW2 snipers, never de-snipered and still in original sniper configuration. Currently, I don't think any of the dealers or importers are offering these, so the secondary market - Tuco's Trader, gunshows, firearms auction sites, and gunshops are the most likely place to find something like this. There are many different types and grades of these available, and some research and serious question asking on this site are necessary for anyone who isn't extremely familiar with these rifles, to make sure the rifles is what it is believed or represented to be.

FIRST OFF: As mentioned above, there are a lot of replicas out there. When said reproductions are, deliberately or through wilful disregard of evidence to the contrary, represented and sold as originals, they become fakes used to cheat and defraud the unwary. Simple fact: any currently offered quantities of "snipers" with a $350 to $600 price tag are almost certainly reproductions, especially if the scope serial number starts with a Cyrillic letter that resembles a 4 or a y. Stories about these rifles being "Soviet War Reserve" that were just released from government inventory are LIES, LIES, LIES! If the scope serial number matches the rifles serial number, you know it's bogus. Now there are a lot of real, post-war Soviet refurbished rifles out there, but as of today, 5-09-06, I know of no one offering these for sale either wholesale or retail. I called Cole's last week, they told me they are out of these rifles and don't know if they will have any more in stock. A lot of these were imported in the past and sold through various sources - Sarco, Century Arms, Navy Arms, etc. A number of us bought nice original refurbed snipers through the legendary group buy deal Tuco set up with Phoenix Arms. Whether more of these genuine, refurbed snipers will be imported or whether they are pretty much a thing of the past isn't clear at the present time. When Cole's still stocked them, the price was around $850, so any real sniper for that amount or less is a deal. If you don't know the fine points of Mosin sniper identification, it's real easy to confuse a replica or restored "ex"-sniper with a genuine refurb, so it's real important to do your research and ask lots of questions here - there simply ain't anywhere in the world where you will get the depth and quality of advice and information available at Mosin-Nagant.net, Gunboards, and the sites operated by our friends Ted at 7.62X54r.net and Parallax Bill's Curio and Relic Forums at Milsurpshooter.net.

Other, and very small, imports of genuine snipers have included Polish and Hungarian PU snipers, and a very few Finn captured or Finn made snipers. Since Polish and Hungarian standard 91/30's are even scarcer than their snipers, fakery here is almost non-existant. But with Finn and Finn marked rifles, some caution is necessary. Genuine Finn made or captured snipers are quite rare, but a few years Century Arms (who was also selling genuine Soviet refurbed snipers at the same time) also made up a bunch of replica snipers using genuine PU scopes and mounts and Finn made or captured standard 91/30's. Also many individuals have made replicas or fakes on Finn or Finned rifles (more discussion this later)

TO BE CONTINUED

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Edited by - Marcus on 05/09/2006 3:43:21 PM

[sharpshooter]

I have to ask again how do you know that the 91/30s chosen for these post war snipers were not test fired for accuracy? Especially this recent import? Well, in your first post you said this:
I am not going to shoot it because I want him to have the experience of cleaning the cosmo out and sighting it in, etc. If it was recently test fired for accuracy, why would it be full of cosmoline etc? I'm sure you could take a closer look at the condition of the cosmoline etc and see if it's old cruddy stuff or new. Just a suggestion.

[G26man]

Awesome post sharpshooter, thanks for all the great info.

I did mess up on my first post. I remember it looking wet inside when I bought it and the bore looked dirty. When I examined it more closely at home (after I posted) there is no cosmoline at all, it was just gun oil on the action and I think its probably burned powder in the bore. I think it was actually test fired but I'll run a patch through it to make sure.

Like I said earlier, I am still very happy with it. There is simply no way I could have put together something like this by myself and no other way to get one than pay over twice the price. Unlilke me most bought them off the internet I think and the sites I've seen (only 2) that were selling them stated plainly that they were post war rebuilds. I think a lot of other people like me saw the value in these because they went very fast.

Although I understand the motivation ($ appreciation) for collectors to invest in the genuine article, I am so glad that there are other ways for people like myself to own something that is essentially the same thing purely for the shooting and astetic value affordably. I feel the same way about most milsurps.

Thanks again for your input. Now I know where to go when I need help with mine. :supergrin:

[G26man]

One last update. I ran a patch through the bore and it does seem to be a small amount of cosmo inside, not powder, so I doubt it was test fired. One good thing though is that the scope is aligned fairly well. With the reticle boresighted it is only slightly right of center and dead on in elevation. I'm not sure if they actually machined the mounts to these rifles or if I just got lucky. Another good thing is the trigger is light and smooth with a suprise break. I'm going to enjoy shooting it (whenever my son lets me, of course ;) ).