My altercation with "Top" [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Hal9mm
06-05-2006, 20:11
First Off I realize I'm a cherry butter bar, I am trying my best and think that things were actually going pretty good. Well I was walking past some of my NCO (some from my platoon and a couple other from our company) any ways the 1SG calls me over "hey lt I got a question" I walk over and respond "sure whats up 1SG?"

"Well I heard that you became an officer to get out of deployment?"

My response, "well I heard you got relieved on the last deployment"

boy did that piss him off making up all sorts of excuses for getting relieved.

I am thinking it was a pretty bad move on my side and I shouldn't have gone to his level, but I have been 100% respectful to him even through all of his smartass comments, I was just fed up and I really wanted to show him I was tired of him trying to push me around.

pretty unprofessional on both sides:freak:

KNEESINTHEBREEZ
06-05-2006, 23:09
Well, if the latter is true he doesn't have any room to say ****. If the former is true then you don't have any room to say **** either.

Hal9mm
06-07-2006, 13:47
Originally posted by KNEESINTHEBREEZ
Well, if the latter is true he doesn't have any room to say ****. If the former is true then you don't have any room to say **** either.

He was relieved I re-enlisted for 6 more years during Iraq and Afganistan. The deployment was not something that anyone would want to get out of.

Avenger069
06-08-2006, 19:59
If I understand what you're saying...he called you over and said that in front of all the other NCOs from the company? That would be pretty messed up since I have never had but the most professional 1SGs around me.

However, even with that being the case (IMO) you should not have replied back in front of those NCOs. Be the better man and discuss it behind closed doors or pull him aside. Believe me when I say that you will not build respect and unit cohesion as a new officer busting Top's balls even if it is true.

Just remember in today's world it is likely that you will depending on those NCOs and trusting them with your life someday.

Like I said this is just my opinion and the culture in your unit may be different.

MP1SG
06-09-2006, 19:44
Originally posted by jherubin
If I understand what you're saying...he called you over and said that in front of all the other NCOs from the company? That would be pretty messed up since I have never had but the most professional 1SGs around me.

However, even with that being the case (IMO) you should not have replied back in front of those NCOs. Be the better man and discuss it behind closed doors or pull him aside. Believe me when I say that you will not build respect and unit cohesion as a new officer busting Top's balls even if it is true.

Just remember in today's world it is likely that you will depending on those NCOs and trusting them with your life someday.

Like I said this is just my opinion and the culture in your unit may be different.

+1

There is a lot that could be read into this, as we only have a portion of the story. Sounds like there may be some history from your enlisted days. Was there a respect or other issues when you were enlisted? If so, that monkey will be on your back for a long, long time and only YOU can get it off your back. Memories aren't erased just because one gets commissioned. Hope it all works out well for the Army, it aint about the two of you, it is all about the Army and the soldiers you lead.

Hal9mm
06-16-2006, 12:01
Originally posted by MP1SG
+1

There is a lot that could be read into this, as we only have a portion of the story. Sounds like there may be some history from your enlisted days. Was there a respect or other issues when you were enlisted? If so, that monkey will be on your back for a long, long time and only YOU can get it off your back. Memories aren't erased just because one gets commissioned. Hope it all works out well for the Army, it aint about the two of you, it is all about the Army and the soldiers you lead.

No respect issues before this incident I was always 100% respectful to everyone. He use to give me a hard time but what junior enlisted soldier doesn't get their fare share of hazing:)

I think he might be a little pissed that I went from junior enlisted to a big O?

All of the other NCO's seem to be happy for me.

Maybe he is just trying to humble me? or make sure I do not get a fat head???:freak:

I don't mind a little ball breaking but we both have different jobs to do and this kinda thing doesn't help either of us.

Jammer Six
06-17-2006, 03:26
You responded in kind to an NCO who had been relieved, and you're surprised because you have respect problems?

Self control is an essential pre-requisite for leadership.

Without it, you are lost. I suggest you develop it.

GreenBeret1631
06-17-2006, 12:47
Originally posted by jherubin
If I understand what you're saying...he called you over and said that in front of all the other NCOs from the company? That would be pretty messed up since I have never had but the most professional 1SGs around me.

However, even with that being the case (IMO) you should not have replied back in front of those NCOs. Be the better man and discuss it behind closed doors or pull him aside. Believe me when I say that you will not build respect and unit cohesion as a new officer busting Top's balls even if it is true.

Just remember in today's world it is likely that you will depending on those NCOs and trusting them with your life someday.

Like I said this is just my opinion and the culture in your unit may be different.

Good post! I agree with you 100% :goodpost: :goodpost:

Cavalry Doc
06-17-2006, 16:55
Sounds like top got spun. Also (if you included all of the pertinent details) sounds like he was trying to establish pecking order in front of the other NCO's.

Personally I'd, have drug him off to the side (hey top, can I talk to you for a second.....) and the only other thing the others would have heard was me asking in a loud voice, "who the F!!! do you think you are!" and then lowered my voice to try and ask him what his problem is.

Make sure the CO knows what is going on. Big question is that if he was relieved, why are you not referring to him as MSG.

Cherry or not, you have to figure a way to work through the transition from enlisted to officer. You also need to do it in a way that you don't burn all of your bridges. Every situation is different, but you have to lead by example, don't tolerate being punked. I too returned to a post where I outranked all of my former NCO's (a little over 10 years ago).

Good luck,

Doc

Cav
06-18-2006, 12:04
I dont know what type of units you serve in, but there was nothing wrong with that conversation where I have worked.

The 1SG opened his mouth, and you responded. Thats normal for combat arms unless you have thin skin or work a support job.

If you are going to talk smack in front of others be ready to get it talked back.

I guess one could cry and say officers have to be higher than that, but you could say the officers out rank NCO's too, and that was wrong of the 1SG.

I talk trash to my officers all the time. I am open and honest with them about everything. They know where we stand, and that I do my job when its time, and have fun when its time.

If I read it right the poster was a soldier in that unit and is now an officer, I find that strange.

GreenBeret1631
06-18-2006, 13:25
CAV:

What you describe above, isn't a good management style in the military or civilian life for that matter.

As a former 1SG, I would not think of saying such a thing to a fellow NCO, muchless, an Officer in public.

Of course, the Officer provoked the 1SG and was also dead wrong, for making such a statement in front of troops, as well. If I was one of the troops there I would not be impressed with either of these two "leaders. (?)"

A good manager, never argues or disciplines a subordinate in front of the troops or employees. This 1SG was way out of line and so was the officer!

Your statement makes me wonder, how much real management experience you have. I see you are an LEO, I was a Captain (Retired) in a large LE Agency and I wouldn't have done anything like that there either!

One of the most dangerous things in the military? A 2nd Lt. with a compass & Map!

Cav
06-18-2006, 14:24
Originally posted by GreenBeret1631
CAV:

What you describe above, isn't a good management style in the military or civilian life for that matter.

As a former 1SG, I would not think of saying such a thing to a fellow NCO, muchless, an Officer in public.

Of course, the Officer provoked the 1SG and was also dead wrong, for making such a statement in front of troops, as well. If I was one of the troops there I would not be impressed with either of these two "leaders. (?)"

A good manager, never argues or disciplines a subordinate in front of the troops or employees. This 1SG was way out of line and so was the officer!

Your statement makes me wonder, how much real management experience you have. I see you are an LEO, I was a Captain (Retired) in a large LE Agency and I wouldn't have done anything like that there either!

One of the most dangerous things in the military? A 2nd Lt. with a compass & Map!

Argue is the key word. IMHO there was no argument based off what I read, or discipline.

I have served in the tightest of units with Infantry, Rangers, S.F., and SFOD. I was/am Infantry (part time now with a Cav unit N.G.). I also serve as a LEO for a fair size agency. I get along with all, and can give and take. Most people are amazed at how well and tight I am with workers.

In OIF we would talk trash all day long in our unit, but let a person outside the unit try and then its a different story. IMHO its part of the job, and can build a strong team, unless you are weak minded, and take things to heart.

Last I checked SFC, 1SG, 2LT, and CPT are all at the top of the company (and should work close with HQ meetings), so its not like a PVT busted out the CPT in front of the Company.

I guess I just dont see this the same as some based on what I read.

Sam White
06-18-2006, 15:02
Cav, from what I could tell, Hal went to OCS or got a Direct Commission and came back to his unit as an officer. If he's NG, that's not strange at all. All of the officers in my reserve unit except for the commander were nco's who got their commission and came back to our unit as 2LT's.

GreenBeret1631
06-19-2006, 01:07
Cav:

Perhaps you need to re-read what was said:

"Well I was walking past some of my NCO (some from my platoon and a couple other from our company) any ways the 1SG calls me over "hey lt I got a question" I walk over and respond "sure whats up 1SG?"

"Well I heard that you became an officer to get out of deployment?"

My response, "well I heard you got relieved on the last deployment"

boy did that piss him off making up all sorts of excuses for getting relieved.

Now re-read what I said in my last message.

The remark from the 1SG infront of a other NCOs and Platoon members was both derogatory and argumentative as well as insulting, and should have never been said before other NCOs and.or Platoon members. The Lt's reply was just as bad for the same reasons, and very unprofessional conduct for a Commissioned officer.

I think that the Lt. should have refrained from making any counter remarks to that 1SG. He should have called him aside and warned him that his statement bordered on being disrespectful and insubordinate to a superior officer.

If the 1SG continued in this disrespective manor and rendered more insulting and insubordinate statements, I would have prefered charges against him for that insuborination.

Cav
06-19-2006, 11:09
I read it as the 1SG wanted to mess with the new LT (in a good or bad way is unknown) with a few soldiers there and the table got turned on the 1SG. To me I wold care little to none on either side, but the 1SG got the worst of it IMHO.

fxdwngflyr
06-21-2006, 17:53
is that people are being promoted to early. They dont work for and truely "earn" thier promotion. Also, ratings dont accurately represent and counselings are not being done.

The breakdown is starting at TRADOC and has flourished since.

Top should not has opened his mouth. Save it for later.

LT you should not feel the need to reply in such.

Now to open another can of worms, how were you as an enlisted man. Sounds like a perception may be following you. My recommendation, find another unit and start over if you can. If not you will need to work pretty hard to change a perception of yourself.

GreenBeret1631
06-23-2006, 14:10
Originally posted by fxdwngflyr
is that people are being promoted to early. They dont work for and truely "earn" thier promotion. Also, ratings dont accurately represent and counselings are not being done.

The breakdown is starting at TRADOC and has flourished since.

Top should not has opened his mouth. Save it for later.

LT you should not feel the need to reply in such.

Now to open another can of worms, how were you as an enlisted man. Sounds like a perception may be following you. My recommendation, find another unit and start over if you can. If not you will need to work pretty hard to change a perception of yourself.

I agree!:goodpost: :goodpost:

jetrecbn1
06-29-2006, 18:55
Bad form on both sides. I get ribbed by my NCO's for losing my BACKBONE. They say stuff that stings but I have skin caloused from the Infantry. I learned to have quick wit when I was 11B. This use to surprise my NCO's because I can throw them out faster then they could. If it bothers you to the point, handle it behind closed doors.

Get used to them saying "you can't spell lost without the LT." This is where you rebut with "you can't spell iNCOmpetent without NCO."

Hey, I can say that. I wore both ranks.:)

RangerAv8r
06-29-2006, 22:11
Sounds like NG or USAR. Cavalry Doc got it right, take the 1SG aside and get it settled. If you were a dirt bag as an NCO or EM you'll have a tough time as an officer especially in the reserve system where there is way more unit stabilization. If your unit doesn't have much to do there can be resentment when an "O" gets much larger drill pay for doing the same thing.
M

cobranx
07-08-2006, 18:49
Why would you let the 1sg say something like that to you? It's your job as an officer to pull him aside and tell him to stay in his lane. As a butter bar, people will test you. If they see they can walk on you, that's exactly what they're going to do.

doyle01
07-13-2006, 15:55
Along time ago in Vietnam when a fng Lt came in to the Plt. we gave him all the respect but he still walked in back the pack and learned After he got his feet wet he would take over after the Plt. leader left. I never had any problem with any 2nd LT infact I wish I could get in touch with those guys Oh yea we never had any OCS Lt always West Point doyle 1st Cav Div

Trent0341
07-16-2006, 19:00
The best advice I can give you is to transfer units. You should not be a Plt Ldr in a unit that you where a junior em. Not only will it be very difficult for you but also those NCOs that had you as an em. You should learn the ropes where you aren't really known.

Ritchie
07-18-2006, 13:59
I only got one side of the story.

so my opinion might not matter.
BUT
What army is that 1sgt in?

I was in for ten years...and that did not happen in my army.
doesn't matter wether the lt was an em or not. He is now an LT. Period end of story.

I would have reacted one of two ways.
Either just like the LT did.
Or
I would have seen top in my office and brought things further up in the chain.

Ritchie
07-18-2006, 14:02
Originally posted by Trent0341
The best advice I can give you is to transfer units. You should not be a Plt Ldr in a unit that you where a junior em. Not only will it be very difficult for you but also those NCOs that had you as an em. You should learn the ropes where you aren't really known.

The above advice.....while it is not always necessarry in all cases.
In MOST cases it is DEFINATELY a good idea. Even for the Jr. enlisted who become NCO. It is not always necessarry, but it is just easier.

td.trmntr
07-19-2006, 10:03
If I were the company commander and had to deal with this situation, here's how I would do it:

To the LT: Shut the f--- up. Act like an officer and leave the trash talk at home.

To the 1SGT: Shut the f--- up. You're the Top kick in my company and you will act like it regardless of your personal feelings for LT butter bars here.

Dismissed.

DennisP
08-05-2006, 22:51
Let me see if I got this right, you were an enlisted troop in a unit, went to OCS and came back to the same unit as an Lt?

Wow that is a small world.

As for the 1sg hasseling you, I would have responded this way"

1sg "hey Lt blah blah blah"
Me "hey Top...wow hearing you speak with out the CO's riding crop in your mouth really suprises me, now what is your question?"

Ha Ha
I used to be an MP in the Army and now I am in Federal Law Enforcement, where I work you had better be thicked skin other wise they will eat you alive.

TMK28
08-07-2006, 16:46
Originally posted by GreenBeret1631
CAV:



One of the most dangerous things in the military? A 2nd Lt. with a compass & Map!


HAHAHAHAHAHA, when I was a second lieutentant, we did a land navigation course. I started an hour late and outscored every NCO in the battery. You've never seen so many SSG's and SFC's staring at their boots!

But maybe I'm the exception...

TMK28
08-07-2006, 16:57
Originally posted by Hal9mm


"Well I heard that you became an officer to get out of deployment?"



This just reinforces the fact that officers must always conduct themselves in a manner above reproach. I don't know why the hell you went to OCS, or ROTC or West Point or DC, but if the word has gotten out that you did so just to get out of a deployment, then something is definately wrong.

As an officer, it's good to share hardships with your Soldiers and it's imperative that you be approachable (but not their "friend"/"buddy"/etc.), but never let them see you showing your ass, e.g.. excessive drinking/drugs, womanizing, bouncing checks, *****ing about senior officers, etc.

You're not a Joe anymore. You have a different role now; you'd better learn to fulfill it.

The NCO was wrong too, but there's better ways to handle that.

DennisP
08-07-2006, 17:27
Very good post. very good post!

Dennis P.

Jammer Six
08-07-2006, 19:09
Statements you don't ever want to hear in the army:

From a 2nd Lt: "According to my map..."

From a Captain: "In my experience..."

From a SFC: "Oh, good, a volunteer!"

From a CW4: "[chuckle] watch THIS s***!"

shootingbuff
08-22-2006, 15:41
You could have handled it better and you could have handled it worse.

If I was in the unit I would think better of you for standing up for yourself. More than likely that was your prior service coming out:supergrin: I think it was funny and who can even come close to proving you went to the other side to get out of anything?

The 1sg was wrong. You could have done worse. If the 1sg was relieved and usally everyone knows it nothing was let out except your not going to messed with.

Also if the 1sg was all that he would have lit you up and got the CO after you. No self respecting NCO is going to take crap off of a butter bar.

My advice keep your woes off the net - it is unbecoming.

sb

shootingbuff
08-22-2006, 15:47
Originally posted by TMK28
HAHAHAHAHAHA, when I was a second lieutentant, we did a land navigation course. I started an hour late and outscored every NCO in the battery. You've never seen so many SSG's and SFC's staring at their boots!

But maybe I'm the exception...

If you are the little short turd I had to drag through the course in Vermont you might have some skills. Other than that I have seen a couple of NCOs that acted like officers. Maybe they just hearded them into one group to get rid of all the trash at one time and you got lucky.

Maybe you even had a good NCO or a few good NCOs train you correctly. Who knows, they say strange things happen..... :clown:

sb

shootingbuff
08-22-2006, 15:56
Originally posted by GreenBeret1631
CAV:

What you describe above, isn't a good management style in the military or civilian life for that matter.

As a former 1SG, I would not think of saying such a thing to a fellow NCO, muchless, an Officer in public.

Of course, the Officer provoked the 1SG and was also dead wrong, for making such a statement in front of troops, as well. If I was one of the troops there I would not be impressed with either of these two "leaders. (?)"

A good manager, never argues or disciplines a subordinate in front of the troops or employees. This 1SG was way out of line and so was the officer!

Your statement makes me wonder, how much real management experience you have. I see you are an LEO, I was a Captain (Retired) in a large LE Agency and I wouldn't have done anything like that there either!

One of the most dangerous things in the military? A 2nd Lt. with a compass & Map!

I agree with cav and as far as management nearly 23 military and add 3 years on the civie side and I still train soldiers. It was not the lt that started this if I read the org post correctly it was the 1sg.

Values come to mind as does a combat MoS mindset. Cav is spot on. Must also remember that the 1sg sets the tone for the unit and especially the young soldiers. The LT had to let it be known he would not be messed with or he would have seemed weak.

Did I mention cav was right. Don't worry your not the first 1sg I have told was wrong.

Ah life.....

sb

shootingbuff
08-22-2006, 16:07
Originally posted by cobranx
Why would you let the 1sg say something like that to you? It's your job as an officer to pull him aside and tell him to stay in his lane. As a butter bar, people will test you. If they see they can walk on you, that's exactly what they're going to do.

Yep about 3 feet so all the rest can observe. If any disagrees with this than they must not agree with establishing yourself as mentioned.

Let it be known you can be tanked with and everyone is going to be trying you. The response may not have been the best but the end result is the LT stood up and let it be known he wont be tanked with - Good deal. Besides the 1sg got spanked when he thought the LT was going to be put on the spot. Lord I would have loved to been there! I am positive the soldiers of that unit loved it when they heard about it. The LT made points and the 1sg got put in his place. Two wrongs don't make a right but the LT came out way ahead on that exchange.

If you don't have the respect you have nothing. The LT I am sure gained a lot from the soldiers.

The LTs only problem is posting the incident here. Stiff upper lip and all that and drive on.

sb

DriBak
08-29-2006, 17:17
Charlie Mike

hi speed
08-29-2006, 17:42
This seems to be a Pee-Pee contest to me. In a time of war it seems that Jr. Officers and Sr. NCO's would have more important things to worry about. Like training soldiers to stay alive, etc...