Would-be Scout rifle?

[Critias]

I'm currently saving pennies and scraping up all the money I can to get my first "real" rifle (currently have an old Remington .22, but my wife's pretty much claimed it as her own). As much as I'd love a good semi-auto, I also recall hearing, a long time ago, that a bolt action makes a good first rifle. Slower rate of fire keeps you shooting slower and following the basics, there's no temptation to blaze through a magazine as quick as you can (or "bump fire") or anything like that, etc, etc.

On top of that, some of these WWII surplus rifles seem like great values, as well.

Has anyone tried to make a sort of "scout rifle" (following Jeff Cooper's guidelines) out of a Mosin or a Mauser? From Googling, I see plenty of aftermarket accessories (synthetic stocks, etc) for both, which makes me think such a project would be plausible, but I'm hesitant to dive in with a couple hundred bucks without much firsthand knowledge.

Does this sound like a decent idea? Could $300-$400 get me a pretty decent all-around rifle? Is the "get a bolt action" advice even still true today (I first heard it from a great guy, a crotchety old Korean War vet), or should I just go ahead and be looking into semi-autos?

[cjlandry]

I had several semi-auto rifles before I ever had a bolt-action.

I've come to really appreciate both the Mosin Nagant 91/30 and the Mauser.

Though I have a Garand on order with CMP right now, a 1903 will be the next rifle I add to my collection. I've become very fond of the bolt actions.

If money's tight, get yourself a 91/30, or a Mauser and learn to shoot with the military stocks and iron sights. You'll love it!

A good friend of mine has a Mauser with the aftermarket synthetic Monte Carlo stock on it, and by the time you fire five rounds, you can barely hold the rifle. The military put handguards on those rifles for a reason, and you'll appreciate having them if you ever fire a "sporterized" military rifle for more than a very few rounds at a time.

Once you learn to shoot "the old fashioned way", better stocks, optics, etc. will actually do you some good. If you learn to shoot with optics, custom-bedded stocks, match-grade triggers, etc. You'll never be able to pick up a rack rifle and score any hits with it.

One thing to consider is that the Yugo SKS has a gas valve that can be turned off for "bolt action" mode. This is for the grenade launcher, but I've heard that it can also be used for added accuracy at longer ranges. So you could get one of the better Yugo SKS's that are on the market right now and have a good compromise between both worlds. My Yugo holds a fairly tight group. Just keep 'em clean.

[Critias]

The reasons I've been considering a synthetic stock are (1) it's lighter, which I think will just make for a handier rifle, (2) I think they look cool (immature of me, I know, but at least I'm mature enough to admit that's one of the reasons!), and (3) it's disgustingly humid here in Kentucky, and I've heard that's not good for wood stocks. I don't know if the claims I've read are exagerations or not, but there's talk of warping, etc, etc, and an overall negative impact on accuracy and reliability. I figured it'd be nice to nip that in the bud, and go for something synthetic right off the bat. The aftermarket stocks I've seen on-line seem pretty reasonable, and claim to be easy to swap out, so I thought I'd consider it.

I haven't got much experience with rifles (which is what I'm trying to change), so I'm not sure what the recoil's like on these older ones. Besides this old .22, the last rifle I fired was when I was maybe 15-16 years old, paper punching with a buddy of mine and his dad. Simple math tells me Mosins and Mausers, both, will have pretty hefty kicks -- while I'm sure the lighter weight of a synthetic stock doesn't help with that any, don't most come fairly well padded?

Heh, and trust me, I'm certainly going for iron sights and other basics first. Not just for the pragmatic, "Learn the rifle," mindset, but because I'm not sure I can afford quality optics or anything else real fancy at the moment. I'm not looking for super-fancy "match grade" stuff too much -- just a general purpose rifle (that I can afford), and the Cooper "scout rifle" idea has kind of caught my eye for the last few days of Googling.

[MrMurphy]

The cheapo "upgrades" for milsurps usually made by ATI I can't stand.

If you want to "scout" a rifle, any medium sized gunshop should have half a dozen to dozens plus old deer rifles in the $250-400 range, often with scope already attached and/or iron sights, in .30-06, .308, 7X57mm, etc. Most are Winchesters, Remingtons, Savages and other fine rifles, just not new and synthetic-y enough for "modern hunters".

A quick stock swap, if even that, and you're shooting.

Get a milsurp to have a milsurp, not to butcher it into something else (there's enough bubba'd milsurps out there already).

Edit: Synthetic stocks don't make the rifle any "handier". They cut down on weight. On a serious caliber rifle, that weight is often a Good Thing and helps cut down recoil. Unless you plain on hunting bighorn sheep, hiking 22 miles in search of a monster deer, etc. the extra pound of wood stock won't matter.

Warping etc only happens in wood stocks if you either A.change climates rapidly, such as on a plane trip from Washington state to South America, and don't rezero the rifle to compensate, or B. in a long high speed firing string, without a freefloated stock, the wood touches the barrel and changes the point of impact. Freefloating a wood stock isn't hard.

[jack19512]

Here is a pic of my M/N M38. If you want to use a M/N for a scout project I would recommend the M38. It is shorter and a lot lighter than the other Mosins.

[Critias]

Easy, Murph. I'm not bustin' out the hacksaw and butchering anything yet, honest. :) Just asking for advice and ideas.

I started thinking about the idea from a few web site tutorials that show how much work can go into just scoping one of these rifles (and if I do get a Mosin or Mauser, I'd want it scoped) -- then I found a link (on the same page, naturally) to the ATI synthetic (with scope mount built in), and wheels in my head started turning. I had to swing by the pawnshop yesterday anyways (grabbing a birthday-present .22 revolver for my wife), and I got an handfull of a synthetic-stock, scoped, Mauser while I was there (which didn't help get me thinking about something else). A few more internet clicks, a few more web pages, and I figured I'd poke my head in here and ask the experts.

I basically just admit I only have the cash for one rifle, right now. In trying to find a rifle that can be a good "this is your only rifle," I came across the Scout Rifle idea, etc, and it snowballed from there. I guess another part of me wants to get all hands-on and customize whatever rifle I do end up with, so I can feel like it's really "mine," or something. The milsurps sounded like a good starting off point, being simple enough in use and maintenance I'm not real worried about breaking them beyond repair, and having reputations (nearly 100 years later) for still being great rifles.

On "handier" -- I blame Jeff Cooper. I was killing some time Googling yesterday, and he kept going on and on about synthetic stocks, low weights, etc. I figured maybe the rubber butt pad would help with recoil enough a lower weight Mauser or Mosin wouldn't be too shabby an idea. Still easier to lug around, but padded enough recoil won't break my shoulder. If that's not the case, thanks for the heads up.

On "humidity" -- thank you for telling me that. I've tried to make it clear I really do have pretty much no idea what I'm talking about. ;) I was just repeating what I've heard, I guess just because I know how humid we get around here, and I have these horrific images of my stock warping and twisting beyond recognition. It makes me want to keep a lovingly polished old Mosin Nagant or Mauser in the a/c instead of ever taking it outside. Okay, so I'm exagerating a little bit, but you get my basic idea. If it's not something I need to worry about much, it's not something I need to worry about much. Thanks.

Again, please keep in mind I'm in here asking questions, that's all. If it's not a good idea, it's not a good idea.

[MrMurphy]

A Ruger M77MkII is a pure Mauser 98 action, nearly indestructible, and they're fairly shootable guns. Finding a used one, or a Winchester 70 or Remington 700 (also Mauser derivatives) shouldn't be hard.

[cjlandry]

Originally posted by Critias
Again, please keep in mind I'm in here asking questions, that's all. If it's not a good idea, it's not a good idea.

I'm not saying that it's not a good idea. I'm just saying that my money would be better spent on practice ammo and range time for someone new to rifles.

[Yamadad]

I did it with an old Swede M96 in 6.5x55. In the end I was not all that satisfied. It ended up costing more money than if I had started with an old commercial rifle and it is still waaaaaay too heavy with a crappy trigger. Those old military rifles used very beefy barrels and receivers, which make them very heavy to begin with and very expensive and difficult to lighten up; like today's commercial rifles.

If you are a very experienced gun owner (like me) and looking for a project (like me), just for fun (like me); then go ahead. But, if you're a novice, like you say; I'd say stay away from this kind of project.

[jack19512]

Posted by Critias

" I'd want it scoped) -- then I found a link (on the same page, naturally) to the ATI synthetic (with scope mount built in)"




I don't know if the one you were looking at looked like this one or not but this has been one of my best buys.

It is a K98 Mauser with ATI synthetic stock. I bought two of these, one for myself and one for my oldest son when Centerfire systems had them. I give $150.00 each for them.

This rifle is one of the most accurate rifles I have. But it is quite heavy. I would still carry it on a deer hunt though.

[jack19512]

If I were you I would think about a K31 or a Yugo 24/47. Both of these are accurate rifles and they don't cost that much. The K31 is easily scoped, don't know how hard the 24/47 would be to scope but I plan on scoping one of mine eventually.

The only drawback with the K31 is ammo availability. You can get the ammo for the K31 it's just not stocked on everyones shelf. I live in Ky. also and have never had any problem with wood stocks. Here is a pic of my scoped K31.

[jack19512]

Here is a pic of my K31 when I had the scout mount setup on it.

[jack19512]

Don't know if anything like this would interest you or not but I have 3 of the New England Firearms(NEF)rifles that I like a lot. I have a .223, 22 mag, and a 17 Mach II.

All are accurate and they come in a variety of calibers. They are single shots though. If nothing else you can't go wrong with a good Savage bolt rifle. Here is a pic of my Ultra varmint 223.

[Critias]

Thanks for the ideas, Jack (and yes, that was the ATI stock I saw). I'll do a little digging around with a few of those suggestions.