Kind of an insecure night sight dilemma/question

[Doug S]

My current primary handgun arrangement is a G26 for CCW and a G17 for home defense. The G26 is my favorite Glock, and if I had to choose only one, it would be the G26. That said, I like the grip size and handling characteristics better on the G17, and think that it makes an all around better house gun (especially for the wife) than the G26. Now forgive me for the long winded post, but here is my somewhat silly insecure dilemma... I have a couple of quick access safes. One sits bedside. I’ve made a habit of using the bedside safe for my CCW G26 because it is convenient at the end of the day to just take the G26, and place it in this safe. As a result, the G26 ends up being the gun that I would most easily access if something goes “bump in the night”. The G17 in contrast sits in another fast access safe, about 10ft from the bed. I’ve decided for a number of reasons, but the two most primary being, mag capacity and comfort, to switch the location of these two pistols so that the G17 sits bedside. My dilemma is this, I like the fact that the G26 is equipped with night sights (the G17 is not). I like the night sights in low light conditions. I also like the fact that if I decided to leave the safe open during the night that I can easily ascertain the location/position of the gun because of the glowing sights, without an outside light source. Other than the night sight issue, I’d much prefer the new arrangement. I know that I could have night sights put on the G17, but I like the factory Glock sight picture. My question is, other than what I’ve already mentioned, is there really any significant advantage to night sights in a home defense scenario? I know that night sights are supposed to help you more easily acquire a sight picture in a darkened scenario, but I wonder if this is really necessary. Also, I’ve wondered if the night sights could in fact give away your location. I figure the likelihood of this would be remote, but it would seem possible nonetheless. I would appreciate your opinions of the “necessity” of night sights on a defensive house gun, as well as, your opinions on the new arrangement of my guns. I’m leaning toward thinking the pros of the new arrangement outweigh the night sight issue. Do you view night sights as necessary, or really beneficial? I would appreciate your thoughts, Doug.

[Bill Keith]

Seems to me folks used handguns at night sucessfully without night sights or attached lights and lasers for a long time before the market place came up with them. I'd suggest you do a test... take your handgun, place it at your side and close your eyes. Bring the gun up to sight line with your eyes closed. Open your eyes; look to where the gun is naturally pointing. If your gun points naturally for you, night sights wouldn't be necessary for 5-10 yard shots. I've found that some guns point more naturally than others. For me, a S&W K frame revolver is the most natural pointing gun. My Glocks tend to point high.

Also, do you do any 3 to 7 yard point and shoot drills with a B27 target? If you can consistently shoot in center of mass with a quick point shot at those ranges, you might not even need to use sights. Using sights in short range armed conflict is probably the exception rather than the rule. When things get fast and furious, you'll rely on overlearned muscle memory because your fine motor skills go away... this is why there have been many gunfights in darkened rooms with nobody hit. I practice a lot of short range point and shoot just for this reason. I also use a shotgun for my primary home defense weapon...

My home also is never completely pitch dark... there is always some ambient light from the windows, hall night light etc...so I don't have the issue of sleeping in absolute darkness like some folks do.

[halfmoonclip]

I prefer the 'dot & U' standard Glock sights to the three dot night sights under virtually any circumstance except...shooting in the dark.
The real dilemma, IMHO, is having enough light to identify your target. How about putting an aux light on the rail of your G17?
Moon

[Doug S]

Bill Keith,

Sound like you know what your talking about. I'm a fairly new shooter, and have only had one defensive firearms course. I've not practiced much point shooting, but I can see your point. I will try what you recommend to see how I'm shooting.

Moon,

I also like the Glock factory sights. The next chance I get to check out one of the local shops that carry the Glock brand weapons light, I will do so.

[English]

Within room distances you don't need sight at all to make quite accurate shots. If your hearing is any good before you fire you would probably be able to shoot at a sound. I can reccomend a point shooting course with DR Middlebrooks at TSA if you doubt your ability and, in any case, you need to practise.

If you end up outside the house at ranges above 10yards then night sights become very useful, though DR would argue against that. On the other hand, if your assailant has well adapted night vision he will see the glow of your night sights, even from the "wrong" side. Swings and roundabouts!

English

[Getwild2]

Get one of these, this is my G17 w/Glock Tac-Light. The best $80 you can spend.

There is a switch on both sides of the unit right where your finger rests along the slide while waiting to draw on a target. You'd be amazed at how fast you can flip the switch while your finger travels down to the trigger. I can flip my light on and be ready to fire in about a second.

The best thing about it is you can take the light off in under 2 seconds for times during the day or at the range when you may not want it on the firearm.

http://www.lbcflint.org/cjs/images/posting/Glock/DSC00014.JPG
http://www.lbcflint.org/cjs/images/posting/Glock/DSC00008.JPG

[new_master]

Point shoot point shoot !!!

sersiouly though, I keep a surefire executive defender along side my bed as well, to hopfeully blind them too

[DannyR]

Forget about what you see in the movies and on TV. Home defense does not include house clearing. If you suspect an intruder, retreat to your safe room and call the police. From your safe room, you should have a clear shot (from cover) at the doorway if the door is opened by the intruder. You know where he is but he does not know where you are. You do not need night sights, or any sights, to hit a torso in the doorway from 12 to 16 feet away. If you do, then trade your handgun for a shotgun.

[FJC]

You can always pop out the G26 mag and put in a G17 one at night and keep that by the bed...best of both worlds.

[Doug S]

I appreciate all of the feedback. I think I'm going to pick up one of the Glock lights. That said though, I like this idea from Danny R, the best...Forget about what you see in the movies and on TV. Home defense does not include house clearing. If you suspect an intruder, retreat to your safe room and call the police.

This is exactly what I plan to do once I have the kids rounded up.

[DannyR]

That's the idea.

Round up the family and secure them in the safe room.
Have a cell phone handy to call the law.
Have a spare key on a ribbon ready to toss out the window so the law can enter.

If the door starts to open, shout "Stop or I'll Shoot!"

I have a large dresser positioned for cover in our designated safe room, ten feet from the door.

[Bob1950]

Alot of really good advice here.

[Doug S]

Alot of really good advice here

I agree.



Have a spare key on a ribbon ready to toss out the window so the law can enter.

This is one I hadn't thought of.

[Blaster]

Originally posted by DannyR

Have a spare key on a ribbon ready to toss out the window so the law can enter.


Add two things to the ribbon. 1 A crack and shake light stick for visibility. 2. A floor plan of your house, does not have to be fancy, the LEO's will appreciate it greatly.

Electronic hearing protection kept bedside can also be greatly beneficial, especially a set that amplifies ambient sound.

The range of light levels that night sights are useful is rather limited. When ambient light overpowers the Tritium glow, night sights do nothing for you. Where light levels are so low that you cannot identify or even see your intended target, seeing your sights is of little benefit. The narrow window in between is where night sights are beneficial.

Also as DannyR said, “Home defense does not include house clearing.”

It may be your house but the intruder has the advantage. Yes, you know the lay of the land but you do not know where the intruder may be hiding. He can entrench using cover and concealment. The homeowner who seeks the intruder is exposed and unless greatly skilled in mortal jeopardy. In battlefield situations, it almost always takes a larger force to defeat an entrenched force. There are many cases where a well-entrenched individual pinned down and exacted great damage to a much larger sized force.

And who said there is only one intruder! Sounds to me like a dying man's last thought.

Guard the door to your safe room. Entrench your self and your loved ones. Gain the advantage.

Any pistol pales in comparison to the firepower of a shotgun.

[Doug S]

This thread keeps getting better.

[halfmoonclip]

Originally posted by Blaster


The range of light levels that night sights are useful is rather limited. When ambient light overpowers the Tritium glow, night sights do nothing for you. Where light levels are so low that you cannot identify or even see your intended target, seeing your sights is of little benefit. The narrow window in between is where night sights are beneficial. [/B]

That, sir, was both succinct and profound.:thumbsup:
Moon

[TheHun]

IMO in total dark the night sight is useless. You can see the sights, but you won't know what you gonna hit. Remember, you have to positively ID your target! Also I personally would not use light source attached to the gun - that would be the best target for an intruder if he's armed,even if he is blinded for a moment, he will shoot to the source of the light, and I'd bet my ***** on that.
There is an other thing- might be the most important. You won't (unless you are a well trained professional) go by the rules. Under fear, pressure, stress you won't remember your name - forget about the lots of great advise that you read here. You can plan your moves, but you can't plan the intruder's. You will go by your gut feeling and instinct.
That's just my 0.02 cents

[ejw-g19]

Originally posted by DannyR
Round up the family and secure them in the safe room.
Have a cell phone handy to call the law.
Have a spare key on a ribbon ready to toss out the window so the law can enter.

If the door starts to open, shout "Stop or I'll Shoot!"


Sorry of I am getting this thread more off track but a lot of good suggestions have come out.

The only thing I would suggest differently is to have already called 911 and keep them on the line with the phone near you until the house has been cleared by police. The 911 recording will be irrefutable proof that you provided a direct order with the consequences clearly defined. This evidence will be most valuable when it becomes necessary to defend yourself in legal proceedings that follow a shooting.

[army_eod]

Positive ID of your target.

[Sarge45]

With all due respect to the other posters, forget it. Clear your weapon. Drop the mag and empty the chamber. When your family is asleep or not around, take your non-night sighted weapon through the house with the lights off. Make sure it's unloaded though.

Where are your sights ? You won't be able to see the gun period, probably. Pretend there is a perp at the other end of the room or house and you have to draw down on his very dark silhouette. Can you line it up on him ? What about outside the house in the dark ?

I'm sure a lot of people in New Orleans wished they had night sights. I would bet there are some in Mississippi right now wishing they had some considering their state of emergency.

Went out on my first night shoot a while back with our special ops team. I had never really considered the o-dark-thirty equation for home until I did that shoot. No light and low light. You WILL lose your weapon in your hands if you don't have those tritiums to guide you to your target. Mine was stainless and I could not see the gun to line it up. All I could see was barely a dark blob in my hands and the targets dark sillouette. A real eye opener.

I now have tritiums on my bedside gun. Do the exercise for yourself and see what I am talking about.

If you have a bedside gun and you have it for protection at night, you better consider the no light and low light effect.

Good shooting my friend.

[PzGren]

I prefer the steel night sights, like Ameriglos and Trijicons for a clearer sight picture over the stock plastic sights.

I wonder how many of the posters here really had to defend their houses ever in the dark. I lived many years in the Third World in an extremely dangerous environment and had to defend my home and life more than once. Once anybody got over the 10 feet walls into the garden at night, I did not have to identify my target but only hit it, and I didn't care whether it was the Pope on a pilgrimage for peace.
I learned to appreciate nightsights in those years and felt growingly uncomfortable using a light.

[Doug S]

So much good feedback makes it hard to decide. One minute I'm thinking that I don't need night sights, the next minute I'm thinking I do:) .:rollsmiley:

[English]

Originally posted by Doug S
So much good feedback makes it hard to decide. One minute I'm thinking that I don't need night sights, the next minute I'm thinking I do:) .:rollsmiley:

That is good thinking Doug S. It is all compromise. I would go for night sights, and personally I would go for the TFOs which work through the whole range of light levels, but I would still work at point shooting.

As PzGren said, there are many situations where you don't need to be able to identify your target but you do need to be able to hit it.

English

[zoyter2]

Originally posted by DannyR
Forget about what you see in the movies and on TV. Home defense does not include house clearing. If you suspect an intruder, retreat to your safe room and call the police. From your safe room, you should have a clear shot (from cover) at the doorway if the door is opened by the intruder. You know where he is but he does not know where you are. You do not need night sights, or any sights, to hit a torso in the doorway from 12 to 16 feet away. If you do, then trade your handgun for a shotgun.


And yet amazingly, most armed conflicts occur much closer than this distance, and STILL, the majority of rounds fired miss the intended target. So much for "point shooting" and can't miss.

Point shooting is great, and has its place in armed conflicts, but point shooting takes practice. Practice that I have NEVER, EVER, ONCE seen anything but a pro willing and able to do. Are you going to practice sightless shooting standing flat-footed on a range, calm, still, collected, and then "BAM" point shoot a seven yard target? If so, you are not practicing for what will or should happen during an armed conflict. It takes a hell of a lot of practice to prevent to assure hits during an armed conflict, where fright, surprise, adrenaline, and other factors will negate fine motor control.

The majority of shooters are not as dedicated to practice am many who visit here. As an instructor who often trains, Joe and Jane Average, I can assure you that they could, would, and do miss torsos at 7 yards.

Learn to use the front sight properly, and THEN, practice point shooting. When you have mastered point shooting, it is fast.

[English]

Originally posted by zoyter2
And yet amazingly, most armed conflicts occur much closer than this distance, and STILL, the majority of rounds fired miss the intended target. So much for "point shooting" and can't miss.

Point shooting is great, and has its place in armed conflicts, but point shooting takes practice. Practice that I have NEVER, EVER, ONCE seen anything but a pro willing and able to do. Are you going to practice sightless shooting standing flat-footed on a range, calm, still, collected, and then "BAM" point shoot a seven yard target? If so, you are not practicing for what will or should happen during an armed conflict. It takes a hell of a lot of practice to prevent to assure hits during an armed conflict, where fright, surprise, adrenaline, and other factors will negate fine motor control.

The majority of shooters are not as dedicated to practice am many who visit here. As an instructor who often trains, Joe and Jane Average, I can assure you that they could, would, and do miss torsos at 7 yards.

Learn to use the front sight properly, and THEN, practice point shooting. When you have mastered point shooting, it is fast.

Zoyter2,

I agree with most of that but the same people can miss torsos a 7 yds sighting as well! A good yank at the trigger will usually be enough!

Where I differ is that I think it is feasible to learn both together or point shooting first. Both skills have their own value.

English

[zoyter2]

Yes both skills are pretty much required in a combat training situation. As to learning both, I suppose so, provided you consider a basic set of skills before beginning either training. Most shooters do not have this basic set of skill down to much of a degree of proficiency.

If one is sufficiently familiar enough with the basics of shooting..ie, trigger press, reset, stance, grip, etc, then one might easily "hone" both skills of point and aimed fire simultaneously.

I personally focus on instructing in basic skills, then aimed fire. When the basics and aimed fire are perfected, there is little or no reason to teach any point fire. That skill will pretty much be ingrained by proper grip, stance, and familiarity of the weapon. Only a bare minimum of training will be required.

A skilled and practiced shooter with aimed fire training will instinctively point shoot at close range, go to a front sight orientation at intermediate range, and finally at extended range, go to fully aimed accurate fire. Furthermore, the shooter needs no training as to when to shift from point fire to aimed fire.

One who is taught only to point shoot first, will seldom perform good enough with aimed fire until they are trained in aimed fire.

This is not only my experience in combat training, but also the experience of the Army in the distant past with regards to point shooting, and other reflective shooting skills without aimed fire, such as the QuickKill method(as developed by Lucky McDaniel).

But, hey, whatever works with your students is good.

As to the OPers question, if you do not have night sights, in a low light situation, you have taken aimed fire off your list of options.....it's not wise to eliminate ANY viable option when it pertains to surviving an armed conflict.