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infantryman
07-11-2006, 16:18
I am 34 yrs old former army infantry and looking to get back into the military. the Security Forces interests me. I am meeting with the recruiter this week. This will be an Air National Guard stint. What can I expect at the tech school? PT, long days and nights? Will I be treated like a trainee piece of crap or a human? I was an E-1 private trainee 14 years ago. I'm too old and have accomplished too much to be treated like dirt again. I have been told it is 10 weeks long. Is there usually anytime for a guy to fly his wife and kids in and spend time with them during the 10 weeks. Any information will be greatly appreciated.

MrMurphy
07-11-2006, 21:19
Infantryman, i'll post what I can but PM me, i'm AD SF overseas fairly recently out of tech school.


It's "supposed" to be 10 weeks now. Was when I was in, but it's being extended for more infantry type stuff at Camp Bullis.

The basic training type stuff is kept to a minimum compared to how it used to be, when they had bars all over and you were basically locked in (they called it the Jailhouse).

Your first week out of BMT etc you're called a SAT (student awaiting training). Basically inprocessing. Couple of recent grads march you all around, briefings all day. Boring stuff, but the usual. How to set up your room and all that. Standard 2-man dorms. What's inside your wall locker is your affair unless they find it unlocked, and there's the usual room inspections to make sure you meet teh standard (not hard).

Area 1 is about a month. Cop stuff. Mostly classroom, the law, FATS simulator, crime scene investigation, domestic dist., etc roleplaying stuff, lots of bookwork. The first two weeks are boring then it gets better.

Area 2 is weapons. STandard fam-fire type stuff and quals on the M4/9/203/249/240B plus frags. For an infantry guy, nothing hard. 2 weeks of that including a day trip or two to Camp Bullis for the frags and 249 firing.

Area 3 is "the grunt stuff". Airbase defense, all the security side of the house, GPS use, etc. Ends up with 2 weeks or 1.5, somethign like that out at Camp Bullis (NG facility with a large AF area) they run the combat convoy course out there, and SF school. Patrolling, LP/OPs, ambushes, all the usual stuff. One of our TDYs was a crosstraining infantry sergeant from the NG so we had it easy till it came to ambush planning time (he'd never done it, just been part of one). I gave him some advice (ex-army officer candidate myself, and I HAVE planned many ambushes and conducted themin training).... he ignored it, and we.... sorta pulled it off. Messy.

The instructors are usually cool. If you're prior-service comign back in/crosstraining..... hmm. The TDYs (crosstraining/diff.service guys), usually higher ranking (E-4/E-5 up to E-7 in one case) basically get told "show up at 0900" etc. The rest of the training team is running around eating at the chow hall, cleaning rooms etc, the usual crap. TDYs just show up for the classes and avoid all teh "tech school" stuff. They stay in the billetting dorms with maid service (trust me, we gave them crap about that) and do whatever they want off duty unlike the regular school people.


If I knew your grade, how long you've been out (do you have to go to basic again?) etc, i could specifically tell you more.

infantryman
07-12-2006, 05:38
I'll be able to keep my prior rank of E-4. No basic. BTDT. Not going to do it again.

meeko
07-12-2006, 06:09
I went through in 1986. A lot has changed since then. They use to give waivers on the Air Base Defense part of tech school for prior service infantry. The AF goes through this where they give waivers then they won't. You are coming in when they are not. As far as flying your family in I would ask any prior service guys in your unit who just went through. For the new students thats sort of hard because they are on a different phase and don't have the privilige a prior service one does.

You will find the Air Force is more on neat paperwork than anything else. In 1986 we learned quit a bit. The instructors back then were pretty hands on and a lot of Viet Nam era MSGT's were running everything. Most of the instructors today like to think they are all that and a bag of chips and talk a good game but, they arn't. Just let them think they are. That is what they want and go on. A person in my guard unit was deployed to LAFB to be an instructor back in 02 for 6 months (they were hurting and activated and sent several activated ANG SF's to instruct)he had some "interesting stories." You might be a little disappointed. They are pushing so many people thruogh so fast that the quality of the course is lacking.

I've got several years active duty in SAC and in the guard combined for 21 years almost. I've seen a lot of changes. Our career field is in a mess right now and the leadership does not know which way it is going. Be prapared to deploy a lot even as a guard member so have your family ready for that inconvienance.

The good thing about the guard. (I'm not slamming anyone) Is maturity. Now more than anytime in history most guard members have 6-10 years active duty time of some branch. We work for Federal agencies or municipal PD's. We have one in our unit that is a Chief Probation officer for his county. A Msters degree and is in charge of multi million dollar budget and payroll. Another one flys for Orion international (he flys troops in overseas on the rotator airbus) Thats stuff a first term airman can't even apply for.

some of the AD troops make their comments but with out the guard and reserve they would do 2 years straight over their.

Good luck.

MrMurphy
07-12-2006, 08:25
Ok if you're an E-4, no basic training BS or any of that. You'll live in AF billeting across from the squadron (343rd TRS). Our infantry sergeant TDY said his 1-sgt room in the Army would be a 2-lieutenant room, to give you an idea. Having stayed in Army housing and barracks he's probably right.


TDYs, assuming your uniform looks sharp (BDUs creased, starched, boots shiny-shiny), which coming from Army, may annoy you, but.... it's SF, that's the way it is, will not be really touched.

You show up at class time, do your thing and go home. You can go out anytime you want after duty hours etc, if your wife/kids come down, nobody cares (one of our TDY's wives showed up during training for a weekend with him) and all that. You drive your own vehicle to wherever we go (if we march down the road to a class, you drive usually).

Except for certain instances, like trips to Bullis etc, normally you're treated like any AD E-4, not really a student.

At Camp Bullis in the infantry portion, you'll be a squad leader. Period. You shouldn't have any problems there.

As long as you do your coursework, don't F-off during hands-on training (hand to hand, handcuffing, searching etc), you'll be perfectly fine and the instructors will probably love you.


Like Meeko said, its' not the best it could be, but it's better than i was expecting from what I'd heard. Quite a of training is "at your first base" stuff since so many bases are so different.


We've got ANG guys here, and they definitely help. Maturity for most of them is a definite plus (most are SSgts), quite a few are civvy cops and have some serious real world experience. All of them, even deploying here to Europe, are multiple-sandy-places deployment types. One SSgt I know has deployed four times in six years to Kuwait and Iraq. As he said, he's never had to shoot anyone yet, but he's faceplanted so many Iraqis during searches, prisoner transfers, etc he's lost count. Quite a bit of hands-on ya know. In our case they help man the gates and police posts, we pull the security patrols and the gates/police patrols. With as many people deployed/TDY as we generally have we'd be hurting without augmentees and ANG guys.

infantryman
07-12-2006, 15:39
how long is a deployment (Iraq/Afghan) for the ANG guys. My recruiter said that so far, all the Sf guys that have been deployed from this unit I will be joining have volunteered.

To clarify, the whole time I was in the rear my BDU's were starched, boots spitshined. The Army is a stickler for discipline.

When do the new uniforms become standard issue?

Mr. Murph- your insight is great. keep it coming.

meeko
07-12-2006, 17:25
Now the AF is mostly doing 179 day rotations. Some overseas TDY's are 120 days but even if thats what you start out as be prepard after you get in place to have your tour extended to 179 days.

As far as vouleering. During the 9/11 activation all ANG and Reserve SFS members were activated. Some deployed while others provided extra security at their home station due to increased manning levels for Force protection conditions. Some of us were let go after the initial 12 month activation some stayed. Then the army guard was activated to backfill in late 02. My particular guard base the SF CC only let the SF guys that deployed come of orders at the 12 month mark.

They did another invoulentary activation in JAN of this year. My base got a tasking for a 13 man squad. All together across the guard and reserve there were about 500 SF members activated for 179 day deployments at various overseas locations. There was a stipulation from the Guard bureau this time though. If you had served in the AOR (ie Iraq, Afganistan, Qatar, Kuwait etc) since 9/11 you could not be invouluntary activated. There was a few problems nationwide the Guard bureau became aware of. This was a few bases that played politics and sent out the same people to deploy while the chosen ones didn't do much at home station. While this doesn't reflect the whole guard it was happening enough that the powers that be found out and thus put an end to it. We had a couple drama queens that were hit at my base this time. It was sort of funny they finally have to earn their keep now.

There are also several opertunities to go on orders under ARCv. That is where you go on orders at your base (or at an active duty base) and suppliment the SF members. You get active duty pay and benifits plus points for retirement. They were title 10 orders but as of JUN of this year evryone is on title 32 orders it dosn't really mean anything. (some will argue but for gee whiz on title 32 you do not fall under the UCMJ as on title 10. On title 32 you would follow under your state natinal guard UCMJ) One of our SF members that teaches collage taught that in criminal law class for a local collage. But once outside the CONUS title 32 reverts to title 10.

As far as disipline overseas. Sometimes you work for someone that still thinks they work at a headquarters base and sometimes you have good common sense leadership that doesn't sweat the petty bull$%#*.

Just do what your imediate supervisor expects. With all these kids they sort of create drama for themselves. They will do silly things and get all the attention so the rest of us are covered on our minimal amount of screwing off.

Again not knocking anyone but most of our discipline problems overseas were active duty AMN. In all fairness though that was because a lot of the AD Sup's like to write paper work. The guard guys sometimes had an issue or two but, a lot of us guard guys me included like to handle it old school. what is more correcting a piece of paper or when we go up in him behind the clearing barrel?

The paper follows him but the other pretty much get total compliance from then on out. Besides everyone makes a bad call especially when they are young. Don't let it ruin them unless they keep doing stupid stuff. The guard like to have a good time but we know when to get serious too.

infantryman
07-12-2006, 19:06
can you specify what job you want or are all SF's the same. ie Law enforcement, base security, etc...

MrMurphy
07-12-2006, 20:40
Don't know about ANG, but in my case, being AD, you can, depending on your supervisor and flight chief (Platoon sergeant for you) get away with some choice. My original supervisor had me go up for EC (Entry Controller) as an LE troop because I'm considerably older and more experienced than most A1Cs and he knew I could handle the LE side. He left for the OSI and my second/third supervisors both stuck with it, because another sergeant who's my age, pretty much our head LE side guy said the same thing, so they just kept me shuffling towards the eventual job of desk sergeant (be another six months to a year not counting deployment), so SFP probably (patrolman) in between.

Other guys are "loop troops" (security guys) by choice or because that's where they need them, and they're always stuck there. I do just as much time as they do out there doing ABD but my specialty is LE.

Rob96
07-13-2006, 02:45
The instructors back then were pretty hands on and a lot of Viet Nam era MSGT's were running everything.

True dat. I went through in '88. Same went for the ABGD Army instructors at Ft. Dix. We were schooled in a lot of guerilla tactics. That proved to be very helpful then when I went through Level II training at Crow Valley in the Phillippines. Training there was more like jungle warfare training. Back then we had a lot of MSGTs that were flight chiefs that had a lot of real world experience from 'Nam. The one would continually refer to the Filipino intruders as "Charlie". We had a couple of different flight chiefs that would pull some interesting excercises. MSGT Jackson, or "Action Jackson" as we liked to call him, once did an excercise where he killed everyone on duty, even took out CSC and JSOC (Joint Security Operation Center).

meeko
07-13-2006, 03:15
Originally posted by Rob96
True dat. I went through in '88. Same went for the ABGD Army instructors at Ft. Dix. We were schooled in a lot of guerilla tactics. That proved to be very helpful then when I went through Level II training at Crow Valley in the Phillippines. Training there was more like jungle warfare training. Back then we had a lot of MSGTs that were flight chiefs that had a lot of real world experience from 'Nam. The one would continually refer to the Filipino intruders as "Charlie". We had a couple of different flight chiefs that would pull some interesting excercises. MSGT Jackson, or "Action Jackson" as we liked to call him, once did an excercise where he killed everyone on duty, even took out CSC and JSOC (Joint Security Operation Center).

The only problem with the exercises where the expert op for takes everybody out it dosen't teach anything. How hard is that with basic students anyway? Just wouldn't be my instructional style. Also not to rant b a question! Does anyone else othe than me here think it's silly that the AF trys to dabbles in teaching guerilla stuff, MOUT etc. I'm telling you as political as the AF is you would be hard pressed to find a Wing CC that would give the ok for a squad etc to go offensive.

Again not knocking any one but I am under the impression a lot of SF guys want to try to be more than they really are. Ranger school is nice but for 3 plus months of commitment and a tab when are you going to use it or be allowed to use it in the AF?

As far as duty position a lot depends on your supervisor. I know I look at a guys maturity and knowledge real world expereince etc. However that dosn't mean the complete lumphead is getting out of anything either. I don't continually hammer my good troops just because I can depend on them.

Duty positions also normally depend on your base assets. We have the basic Base EC, Flightline, Base patrol, etc. Then we go through the fire team stuff for deployments where there is a mobile fire team etc. As far as home station stuff in most cases guard bases have state security officers (civillians) that work full time with the Active Guard Reserve (AGR's) guys for day to day secueity. They can teach you alot of base spacific security issues.

The only other problem with ANG and weekend drill is a lack of time to do a lot of hands on practical stuff with your job. There is so much time commited to computer based training now like 50 some hours. Add that up with 16 hour per drill Thats not a lot of time left. They are revamping it to something like 16-20 for the ANG though. Every ANG unit was in the same boat. We do not have the time to do all of it so the hours are getting reduced so we can do more of the hands on stuff that we need.practical evals etc.

MrMurphy
07-13-2006, 03:18
That still happens, one morning I had an evil thought and whispered something in the flight commander's ear about doing a exercise, and me and my alpha (the initial responders) the next two responding ESRTS, and the patrol after that, all got killed off within seconds of arriving on scene, so all of us normally doing the running around got to lay back and play dead and watch all the OTHER guys who normally got to sit around scramble.....

It was sweet. Being 90 degrees outside and playing dead in the shade was nice too.

Rob96
07-13-2006, 03:26
The only problem with the exercises where the expert op for takes everybody out it dosen't teach anything. How hard is that with basic students anyway? Just wouldn't be my instructional style. Also not to rant b a question! Does anyone else othe than me here think it's silly that the AF trys to dabbles in teaching guerilla stuff, MOUT etc. I'm telling you as political as the AF is you would be hard pressed to find a Wing CC that would give the ok for a squad etc to go offensive.

This wasn't with students, but a seasoned flight at my duty station, with one of our Sgts. being a former Ranger. Lessons learned was where we were being weak on our posts. "Action Jackson" was the only guy I knew that could get over the fence of a WSA without setting off any alarms.:shocked:

MrMurphy
07-13-2006, 07:55
In our case, everybody who normally responded knew their stuff, it was a worst case scenario making the other not-normally responding patrols think on their feet, fast.

meeko
07-13-2006, 14:09
Rob96

I know I mentioned student but what I failed to mention is. I think we have all seen the stump the dummy mentality. A lot of QC people are that way. They have a supreme expert (usually self proclamied) and they set the exercise up to be little and fail. That just doesn't do anything for productive learning for jeeps and veterans. I've just seen a lot of exercises that were not in "reality." not to get on a soap box but, I was there right out of active duty so I knbow the mentality. I learned a lot more once I was out working civillian LE. I am on a SWAT team for a federal agency. We have two training days a month. One of those we are on the range and go through 8,000-12,000 rounds in a several different courses of fire. We repel while engaging targets, breach doors with variety of breaching equipment. I was on EST and peackeeper challange and we never shot that much. the other thing that is funny is all the "proclaimed experts" we here in the hallway or squad qubicle. They tell these exiting stories about using X number of weapons in a shootout etc. When the same ones are in a class I ask who here has been in a shooting or been shot at or even held someone at gunpoint? The number of hands raised is always considerablly less that the amount of people telling "stories" Just something to think about.

Again I am not implying anyone here is like this but I think we have all seen them.

Rob96
07-13-2006, 15:24
I know what you mean about the QC people. One guy I didn't get along with very well. For the practical portion of the yearly QC, he gave me the practical exam for soemone who worked in CSC, and I wasn't even an NCO. Failed me. Went through QC again, this time he came out to my post as an intruder I jacked him per the book, and conducted the search per the book. I knew he had a concealed weapon on him somewhere. I had no idea he had just had a vasectomy, and he started to tear. I found the knife. But he then tried to fail me for excessive force. My flight chief fought it, and told the NCOIC the QC guy had a boner(no pun intended:bigsmile: ) for me.

As for the excercises flight chief "Action Jackson" conducted, they were actually pretty good. He was one of those guys that seen action 'Nam and such. We actually did learn from him. He made it a point that you walked away having learned something rather than be humiliated.

infantryman
07-16-2006, 21:36
went to the drill this weekend. looks like I will make the move. Too bad I can't carry my Glock instead of that friggin Beretta. I might have to buy one just to get familar with it. They only qualify with them once a year. I've shot more rounds of 5.56 in a weekend carbine course than they have in a year. but they do fire frangible ammo in a indoor range.

MrMurphy
07-17-2006, 06:56
Yeah,we do M4 qual every 6 mo, and yearly for everything else.

I bought a Beretta 92FS, lightly used, when I was working at a gunshop just before coming in (employee discount etc, price was quite reasonable), so because of that I had to put off buying a 1911 yet AGAIN....

I don't mind the 92, i've got around 6,000 rounds through mine and others and I hit fine with it (shot expert, not too hard), I'd just rather have something with a single trigger type (LEM, DAK, Glock or SA) and preferably in .45.

Deployed, all SF carry both a M9 and an M4 or whatever other weapon, same time. At least that's what every guy/girl who's deployed tells me.


I've probably personally got more rounds through an M4/AR/M16 series weapon than all of the people in my squadron put together, who've been in for less than six years. :) (estimated 80-90,000 rounds over 20 years of shooting in 5.56 alone). I'm not the greatest shot ( I usually shoot expert but not always) but I certainly know what I'm about. :)

tnoisaw
07-29-2006, 14:39
I am a former Security Policeman (1979-1983) a few years ago I joined the guard and tried to decide between going back into SP (now SF) or Army Combat Medic. I choose medic. I wish I had gone back into my first love of SPís. You wonít regret SF. With the right attitude itís fun as heck.