Short barrel [Archive]

RMTactical

08-31-2006, 21:34

You cannot legally configure a rifle with a barrel of less than 16 total inches without registering the weapon with the ATF, paying for the $200 tax stamp, and getting a thorough background check. It is quite the hassle, but could be worth it in some cases. Short barreled rifles are not ideal as all-purpose tactical carbines however.

Many 14.5" and 14.7" barrels have permenantly attached muzzle devices that bring the total length of the weapon to 16" overall. Similar to this.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/6-19-06AR-15.jpg

The worst thing you can do is get an 11.5” barrel with a 5.5” flash hider permanently attached. That way you lose a tremendous amount of velocity and retain a 16” barrel overall length. There is no point in doing that.

If you get a 16" barrel (or longer) that's threaded, you don't have to perm. attach the muzzle device.

boby

08-31-2006, 23:43

Ah I see. So do I need to get a full FFL like what you have to get to own full auto weapons?

Thanks for the help :)

TylerDurden

09-01-2006, 00:37

Originally posted by boby
Ah I see. So do I need to get a full FFL like what you have to get to own full auto weapons?

Thanks for the help :)

No, it's not a FFL. You submit a form and pay a tax and are approved for that weapon only. You need to go through this process for every NFA item you own.

I wanted a flash suppressor and a rifle that was as short as possible (without a tax stamp) so I went with a 14.5" barrel with permanently attached FH.

boby

09-01-2006, 00:48

Ah ok, can you direct me to where I can fill these forms out?

Once again thanks for the help folks.

Minuteman

09-01-2006, 01:10

Originally posted by boby
Is it a huge deal to have a barrel shorter than 16in? Everywhere that sells 14 and 11in barrels say to make sure its legal and all kinds of mumbo jumbo.

Can I have a 14in barrel in Indiana?

Thanks

Yes, it's a huge deal. Don't bother. Mistakes in the process can land you in federal prison for 10 years, seriously.
Don't bother.
If you want a shorter barrel, then get a "pistol" with a 14" barrel with no stock. Legal, over the counter pistol.
If your getting an AR pistol they are fun toys, but the 5.56mm out of the short barrel throws a huge fireball and not alot of punch or penetration.
The 5.56 mm drops in performance to almost worthless below about 16".

RMTactical

09-01-2006, 01:10

Originally posted by boby
Ah ok, can you direct me to where I can fill these forms out?

Once again thanks for the help folks.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms

ETA: I am not sure the form is on that list... look around on their site, you should be able to find it.

USMCSKI

09-01-2006, 11:44

boby...
1.first step is to make sure SBR's(Short Barreled Rifles) are legal in your state.
2.next find out if your local Sheriff will sign off on the paperwork.
3.Find the ATF web site and request some ATF form 1's,fingerprint cards,citizenship forms.
4.fill out all the above.
5.Have local Sheriff sign off on them.
6.Mail all the above+ $200 check in to the ATF.
7.Have AR engraved with your info (Name,city,state)being that you now become the manufacturer of the SBR.
8.wait for the paperwork to come back approved.
9.Order your upper with barrel shorter than 16"
10.repeat process for any other NFA "toys" that your going to want.

------------------------------OR---------------------

You could buy an AR thats already registered as a SBR and have it transferred to you on an ATF form 4. This would have to go through a FFL with a SOT (Class III dealer) and would involve just as much paperwork. The benefit to this route would be that YOUR name ,city , state would not be engraved on the AR.

Get forms from here....

http://www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm

you will need a minimum of:

2- F 1 (5320.1)
2- FBI FD-258LE
2- F 5330.20

Per rifle that you plan to SBR.

The "background check" that was mentioned by above is BS...if you can purchase a handgun in your state you can own NFA!

When you ask about the NFA items on the web be sure you get your info from someone that knows what the hell they are talking about....if you have 100 people reply to your post with NFA related questions you will most likely only get 1 or 2 people that reply with correct info.

I highly recommend asking any other NFA related questions on :

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/
http://www.subguns.com/

The people that post on the 2 boards above are usually more educated as far as NFA items go.

You could also look on here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m20

under:
M. FIREARMS - NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT (NFA)

biggl35

09-01-2006, 17:07

SBR's are legal in IN. You live in Greenfield, In. The CLEO will signoff on a form 1. Build and enjoy.

And as far as the practicality and terminal ballistics, shot placement is the key.

This is my go to gun, and in about 45 days it well also be suppressed.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/426679.jpg

biggl35

09-01-2006, 17:27

Originally posted by Minuteman
Yes, it's a huge deal. Don't bother. Mistakes in the process can land you in federal prison for 10 years, seriously.It is not that big of a deal, just a little paperwork and patience.
Don't bother.Why not, if that is what he wants
If you want a shorter barrel, then get a "pistol" with a 14" barrel with no stock. Legal, over the counter pistol.A shoulder fired weapon, will always make it easier to make longer shots more accurate.
If your getting an AR pistol they are fun toys, but the 5.56mm out of the short barrel throws a huge fireball and not alot of punch or penetration.Ever heard of a Noveski KX3 brake?
The 5.56 mm drops in performance to almost worthless below about 16".Wrong Almost everything else posted here is wrong.

My comments made were in no way meant to be offensive, but none the less you are wrong about the capabilities of a SBR in 5.56.

boby

09-01-2006, 17:48

It must not be to bad because many army special forces operators use m4's with 14.5 inch barrels...

Thanks biggl35, and USMCSKI.

Guess its a 16in barrel for now, I cant really afford the tax just yet. My next rifle will be 14.5in barrel however.

ElConquistador

09-01-2006, 18:55

Originally posted by boby
It must not be to bad because many army special forces operators use m4's with 14.5 inch barrels...

Thanks biggl35, and USMCSKI.

Guess its a 16in barrel for now, I cant really afford the tax just yet. My next rifle will be 14.5in barrel however.

You can have a 14.5" w/o the paper work as long as it has the flash hider permanently installed i.e. pinned and welded and makes it 16"+. This will cost a couple extra bucks to have done and makes it a pain should you ever need to remove the front sight base or barrel nut.

The flash hider will need to be a YHM, Vortex, etc. The A2 is a touch to short and will put you under 16" (bummer to go to jail over .2" huh?). I believe that Bushmaster will pin/weld the FH at no cost if you order both the barrel and FH from them.

To me it's not worth the hassle to save 1 1/2" but I have to admit it does look better.

Minuteman

09-02-2006, 13:06

:panties:

Originally posted by biggl35
Almost everything else posted here is wrong.

My comments made were in no way meant to be offensive, but none the less you are wrong about the capabilities of a SBR in 5.56.

:upeyes:

Do see the whole world in such black & white terms?

The original question was "is it a big deal", A= YES.
Everything I posted is true.

Did you make a mistake on your form? Go to jail. Did you forget to fill out another form when you moved out of state? No, go to jail.
Did you fill out another form to get ATF permision when you sold it?
No, go to jail. AFT sucks.

Do you ask for the sherrifs permision to wipe you ass?

Your opinion is just that. I see no reason to go through the hassle to have a pistol length barrel with a rifle stock. Why?
So that's the advice I gave. YMWV.

SBR in 5.56 is ninja toy of no practicle value. No fragmentation, poor velocity and low penetration. Huge fireball & noise.

Go mall ninja's!

Why not get a pistol with the same barrel and less paper work?

'Cus it looks cool.

:patriot:

Alaskapopo

09-04-2006, 03:42

Originally posted by Minuteman
:panties:

:upeyes:

Do see the whole world in such black & white terms?

The original question was "is it a big deal", A= YES.
Everything I posted is true.

Did you make a mistake on your form? Go to jail. Did you forget to fill out another form when you moved out of state? No, go to jail.
Did you fill out another form to get ATF permision when you sold it?
No, go to jail. AFT sucks.

Do you ask for the sherrifs permision to wipe you ass?

Your opinion is just that. I see no reason to go through the hassle to have a pistol length barrel with a rifle stock. Why?
So that's the advice I gave. YMWV.

SBR in 5.56 is ninja toy of no practicle value. No fragmentation, poor velocity and low penetration. Huge fireball & noise.

Go mall ninja's!

Why not get a pistol with the same barrel and less paper work?

'Cus it looks cool.

:patriot:

Basically all you have said is if you break the law you will go to jail. Duh. Going through the process to SBR a gun isn't overly difficult nor is it something to worry about. Any halfway intelligent adult can do it and not worry about going to jail. I have it was as easy as following the directions. ATF is not the boogie man.
Pat

epsylum

09-04-2006, 08:18

Originally posted by Minuteman
SBR in 5.56 is ninja toy of no practicle value. No fragmentation, poor velocity and low penetration. Huge fireball & noise.

:laughabove:

Yeah that is why no military uses them.

:animlol:

IMO if the dude wants an SBR (which apprently he has put on the backburner for now), he should get one. He wanted to know how one would go about it and all you offer is "don't do it." Provide good and accurate info let him decide if he wants to or not.

Beisdes, losing the stock throws all your accuracy (other than off a rest) out the window.

c4igrant

09-04-2006, 08:49

Do see the whole world in such black & white terms?

The original question was "is it a big deal", A= YES.
Everything I posted is true.

Did you make a mistake on your form? Go to jail. Did you forget to fill out another form when you moved out of state? No, go to jail.
Did you fill out another form to get ATF permision when you sold it?
No, go to jail. AFT sucks.

Do you ask for the sherrifs permision to wipe you ass?

Your opinion is just that. I see no reason to go through the hassle to have a pistol length barrel with a rifle stock. Why?
So that's the advice I gave. YMWV.

SBR in 5.56 is ninja toy of no practicle value. No fragmentation, poor velocity and low penetration. Huge fireball & noise.

Go mall ninja's!

Why not get a pistol with the same barrel and less paper work?

'Cus it looks cool.

:patriot: [/B]

All kinds of bad info here! The process is NOT hard and the form is short and easy to fill out. It is however expensive $200 and can take 6 months. You also have to get your local Chief of Police (or someone similar) to sign off. This is usually the hard part.

If you screw up the form, they will reject it. Your not going to jail for an honest mistake.

A 7.5" barrel will not allow ANY ammo to get up to fragmentation speed. 10.5, 11.5 WILL allow a round to get up to fragmentation speed and will usually give you that capability out to 50yds.

SBR's are king for home defense IMHO. They are also king for shooting out of vehicles (which is why our Federal Govt and Military use them in these roles).

C4

www.GRTactical.com

RMTactical

09-04-2006, 11:55

It's still a hassle. I know guys who've had to wait 8 months to get their paperwork finished. Not to mention registering the weapon with the ATF is usually not something many gunowners relish going through.

I've considered doing it several times... and I have been very close to going through with it, but I never have personally. I'm just not sure it's worth it. At least not for me...

Skintop911

09-04-2006, 12:19

Originally posted by GoreLicks
I've considered doing it several times... and I have been very close to going through with it, but I never have personally. I'm just not sure it's worth it. At least not for me...

Then perhaps you should refrain from tendering advice and perspective on such procceses, pending your personal experience(s).

It's remarkably simple many places. Wait times are in decline as well.

Panzerfaust

09-04-2006, 14:37

ATF is not the boogie man.

Really?

The JPFO seems to have found plenty of reasons to believe the opposite. They have been the ones for years that have warned about the actions of the ATF, and Randy Weaver could attest to something entirely different. The Branch Davidians that were not in the Compound at the time of its destruction point to something entirely different, also.

The ATF is entirely worse than the boogey man, because unlike the boogey man, they really do exist.

biggl35

09-04-2006, 15:35

I had typed along hatefull reply, but I decided to take the high road.

Minuteman, you are wrong about the ballistics of a 5.56 round being effective in a SBR.

The form 1 to make an SBR is so easy, that my 10yr old nephew can understand it.

Also, your tinfoil hat needs adjusted, in regards to the ATF.

You gave your opinion, and I gave mine.

Have a nice day. :)

RMTactical

09-04-2006, 15:56

Originally posted by Skintop911
Then perhaps you should refrain from tendering advice and perspective on such procceses, pending your personal experience(s).

It's remarkably simple many places. Wait times are in decline as well.

So, if close friends of mine have endured it while I monitored the process then I should keep my mouth shut because I never did it with MY guns?

If I believe the process (not the form you fill out) is a hassle, can't I state that? Or does your opinion trump mine? If so, how?

Get off the rag man. You've been on one lately. Midol is supposed to help, so I hear... but I guess I wouldn't know about that either since I have never had to take it. :animlol:

epsylum

09-04-2006, 16:00

Originally posted by Skintop911
Then perhaps you should refrain from tendering advice and perspective on such procceses, pending your personal experience(s).

It's remarkably simple many places. Wait times are in decline as well.

I think Gorelicks was fair in his assessment as he made it clear that it was his opinion and did not try to make it sound like cold hard fact.

The fact is how "difficult" it is really depends on where you live and how big of an a-hole the local head LEO wants to be.

RMTactical

09-04-2006, 16:09

Originally posted by epsylum
I think Gorelicks was fair in his assessment as he made it clear that it was his opinion and did not try to make it sound like cold hard fact.

The fact is how "difficult" it is really depends on where you live and how big of an a-hole the local head LEO wants to be.

That's a very good point.

We need to keep in mind that, the form is one very small part of the ENTIRE process. VERY SMALL, so let's get away from the discussion of the form since it's such a small piece of the "pie".

IMO, the worst part is having to get permission and give out information to various levels of govt.

On top of that, who wants to wait half a year to get permission from all the various levels of govt? I'm too impatient for that, personally. It's just another part of the hassle.

Now, like I stated before, I have thought long and hard about it. I KNOW WHAT IT TO OBTAIN A REGISTERED SBR. With that knowledge, I am not sure it's worth it. I still may take the plunge some day, but it is because of the knowledge I have about the process that allows me to decide whether or not I am going to do it or not.

If you watch a car wreck, you have a good perspective on it, even if you weren't in the drivers seat. ;)

biggl35

09-04-2006, 16:18

My last two form 1's, were approved in 45days mail box to mail box, and that is including the CLEO signoff. YMMV

sarge

09-04-2006, 16:40

Originally posted by GoreLicks
That's a very good point.

We need to keep in mind that, the form is one very small part of the ENTIRE process. VERY SMALL, so let's get away from the discussion of the form since it's such a small piece of the "pie".

IMO, the worst part is having to get permission and give out information to various levels of govt.

Nothing different than filling out a 4473. It's just an ATF form, going to the ATF, it doesn't go to "various levels" of the government.

On top of that, who wants to wait half a year to get permission from all the various levels of govt? I'm too impatient for that, personally. It's just another part of the hassle.

Approvals are running around 30-45 days now, some less. There aren't "various levels" of government, just the ATF.

To me, the 5 minutes that it took to fill out the F1 and F4 WAS the biggest part of the "pie".

I went the Trust route, so no CLEO signoff, no fingerprints, no pictures. Send the F1 or F4 in with a copy of your certification of trust and in about 4 weeks watch the mailbox. No difficulty at all.

It's interesting how much knowledgable "advice" people who have never been through the process can give.

RMTactical

09-04-2006, 16:50

Originally posted by sarge
To me, the 5 minutes that it took to fill out the F1 and F4 WAS the biggest part of the "pie".

I went the Trust route, so no CLEO signoff, no fingerprints, no pictures. Send the F1 or F4 in with a copy of your certification of trust and in about 4 weeks watch the mailbox. No difficulty at all.

Actually it is different that filling out a 4473. When they knock on my door, I can't tell them I just sold it off... They know I have it... Besides, in some cases, you have to keep up with registering it annually or what-not (I'm not sure about where I am now, I'm new here and haven't looked into it here just yet).

30-45 days sounds a lot better (it still sucks though, just not quite as bad), but that hasn't exactly warmed me up to the idea all of a sudden. I just hate asking for permission from the govt and having them know details about my gun collection.

Besides, this is my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine by me. I'm not offended by that. It does kind of rub me the wrong way when someone who pretends to know everything about everything tries to tell me I'm clueless about something I have very good knowledge/experience in.

Anyways, I'm over it...

My brother is just about to go through the process himself. Maybe I will change my mind after I witness his experience. (I doubt it though)

Minuteman

09-04-2006, 19:33

[QUOTE]Originally posted by c4igrant

SBR = MNT (Mall Ninja Toy)

:patriot:

Minuteman

09-04-2006, 19:40

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Minuteman
[B]:crazy: :chatter:
] :upeyes:

biggl35

09-04-2006, 20:05

Minuteman, I see you edited your last reply. Did you do that on your own, or ?

Minuteman

09-04-2006, 20:52

I did.

I decided this is dumb, and not worth discussing with those who are rude and can't read english anyway.

This thread is about a stock. A BUTTSTOCK!!! That's it.
To have a stock, you need a federal enema/investigation, no stock is an over the counter purchace.

Everything else posted here is hot air.

:patriot:

sp3worker

09-04-2006, 20:54

Originally posted by GoreLicks
Besides, in some cases, you have to keep up with registering it annually or what-not (I'm not sure about where I am now, I'm new here and haven't looked into it here just yet).
As far as I know there are no NFA items that have to have any annual registration. I own a machine gun, silencer and will be the owner of a short barreled rifle in a couple weeks, when my form 4 is approved. None of these items need anything other than your initial tax stamp.

sarge

09-04-2006, 20:58

Originally posted by Minuteman

This thread is about a stock. A BUTTSTOCK!!! That's it.
To have a stock, you need a federal enema/investigation, no stock is an over the counter purchace.

... and all this time I thought it was about a "Short Barrel" as the title says and as the original poster asks about.

Skintop911

09-04-2006, 21:49

Originally posted by sp3worker
As far as I know there are no NFA items that have to have any annual registration. I own a machine gun, silencer and will be the owner of a short barreled rifle in a couple weeks, when my form 4 is approved. None of these items need anything other than your initial tax stamp.

That is terribly odd. Are you sure?

Gorelicks has shared his "very good knowledge/experience", and indicated otherwise. Whom shall we believe? :upeyes:

scottMO

09-04-2006, 22:27

I've owned 4 SBR's and 3 full auto's, including a MP5, MAC 11/9, and an UZI. There are no Annual registrations, fees, etc. You do not give up any "rights" when you own FA or SBR's. The biggest hang up for most is the LEO sign off. For some, it is impossible, for others, it's a 2 minute wait. A SBR requires a one time 200.00 "tax". If it needs to be transfered or transfered twice (some out of state purchases/transfers), then it could be 2 tax stamps, or 400.00. To make your own, it's just the 200.00.

The wait times, used to be 3 months for me on average, but 30-45 days, mailbox to mailbox, seems to be average.

scottMO

RMTactical

09-04-2006, 22:32

Originally posted by sp3worker
As far as I know there are no NFA items that have to have any annual registration. I own a machine gun, silencer and will be the owner of a short barreled rifle in a couple weeks, when my form 4 is approved. None of these items need anything other than your initial tax stamp.

You're from Indiana (a VERY pro-gun state). Different states/cities require different things.

Skintop, maybe one day you will grow up. You're tireless efforts to prove me wrong are not only futile but tiresome.

FontanaHorseman

09-05-2006, 06:25

43 days - mailbox to mailbox - on my first SBR. Only took that long due to mailing to wrong address (DC instead of WV) and listed multiple barrels and lengths on form.

Examiner was very friendly & helpful and turn around when I fixed was one day.

If I had done correctly my time would have been less than 30 days. I have seen some as fast as two weeks when people use a Corp. or Trust.

NFA is not a bug-a-boo, just tedious at times. I have CCW so I am on "their files" already. I would recommend setting up a trust since you cut out the need for CLEO sign off and fingerprints and the time is much quicker.

No need for everyone to get upset here - the guy asked a simple question. If someone posts incorrect info then we need to correct it without dumping all over them.

As always - on the internet you need to take any advice with a big grain of salt and consider the sender - he/she could be 13 yrs old playing with their Red Rider and typing away!

YMMV,
FH