Is Kahr better quality than Glock?

[Moshe]

I'm just wondering, they seem to be more expensive on the whole.

I don't own a Glock yet, but I love my Kahr. I'm wondering, for my next pistol (if and when that happens) if I should stick with Kahr, or try a Glock.

[josp]

Well, that's one way to get a lot of responses......

Beter??? Well maybe different.
You can't take a couple Kahrs apart and mix up the pieces and put them back together and have them work like a Glock. But I guess that's only really usefull if you have several Glocks and like to change things.

They are a smaller company (Kahr) so their prices will be higher. Plus the method of manufacturing a Kahr presumably would take longer than a Glock (no hit, Gaston is a master of mass production)so you have added costs there with manpower and such.

Depends would be my answer.

I have had several Glocks, and the Dept may be switching to them in the future, but I've always found them to be a bit big in the grip. .
Of course, they hold more ammo, and are a bit bigger overall, so for a non concealed gun, they may be just what you want. For my CCW purposes, the Kahr is just right.

YMMV:thumbsup:

[LabTech]

In one word...NOT!!!!!!!

[fcamd]

Originally posted by BigBadaBooom
I'm just wondering, they seem to be more expensive on the whole.

I don't own a Glock yet, but I love my Kahr. I'm wondering, for my next pistol (if and when that happens) if I should stick with Kahr, or try a Glock.


When I lived in Ohio (pre-CCW permit days) I used to own guns which were impractical to carry concealed, if I could have. Since moving to FL I saw a need to have the hardware which were comfortable to carry concealed. So I traded in my Beretta 92FS, Sig 232 and Ruger SP 101 for the Kahr PM9 and Glock 26.
I have found that owning both guns have more than adequately met my carry purposes. The Kahr gives me more concealability, but the Glock gives me more available number of rounds. Both are easy enough to conceal despite the warm weather clothes I now wear more often. So for your next purchase, I highly recommend the Glock 26 to keep your Kahr company.
Now if it were only possible for a hybrid of those 2 guns to make it to the market, then I think I could have the best of both worlds.

[Moshe]

So they're more expensive mainly because Kahr is a smaller operation?

That makes sense if that's the case.

As somebody in business school, I have wondered lately how firearms manufacturers structure their supply-chain. I was wondering just the other day if they outsource the manufacture of components, or if it's all made in their factories.

[J_Curd]

They outsource depending on quality constraints, secrecy, and expense. There may be other factors, but those cover 99% of the bases.

[Rebel_James]

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/Rebel_James/GlockP031.jpg

[9mmMick]

Your one of the lucky ones with the Kahr.
Last guy I talked to was lucky enough to get his money back because it would have a problem feeding rounds even after he polished the ramp.
Go for the Glock, hands down.

[Dobbler]

Originally posted by Kittydaddy
Your one of the lucky ones with the Kahr.
Last guy I talked to was lucky enough to get his money back because it would have a problem feeding rounds even after he polished the ramp.
Go for the Glock, hands down.

Don't make any generalizations based on one data point :)

Kahr has had issues with some of the polymer pistols, but most who own the all-metal versions love them. I own one of each that work flawlessly. They were manufactured in the past 9 months.

I own three Glocks too.

[elbee314]

I have to second the feeling here on the board. Both remarkably good in their own right. keep in mind Kahr was 21 people 10 months ago, and now is 49, Glock has that many in the shipping department. If you want tiny, and well made go for a Kahr or Rohrbaugh. If you want fairly small, and reliable as a Iraqi stone, Glock answers a lot of questions.

[windplex]

Originally posted by BigBadaBooom
So they're more expensive mainly because Kahr is a smaller operation?

That makes sense if that's the case.

As somebody in business school, I have wondered lately how firearms manufacturers structure their supply-chain. I was wondering just the other day if they outsource the manufacture of components, or if it's all made in their factories.

Distribution model is frequently two-step and one step for larger retailers. Mfg to distributor to retail dealer (depending on size of retailer) = 2-step

[mikeb9550]

I really love my P9 covert but the day Glock comes out with a reliable single stack the same size, the Kahr is gone.

I love my G23. Its about my 6th or so gun now and its my favorite by far. I enjoy shooting it more than my 800 dollar 1911.

[Dandapani]

I've owned both.

$500 Glock vs $675 PM9? (NIB pricing from local gun stealer)

PM9 is half the quality, feels cheap, after handling and reviewing any Glock. PM9 should be $375 not $675.

[Seabee]

I have an MK9 Elite 03 and it's every bit as high quality as my Glock 23. It was a little more money, but I'm happy with it. It's just money after all. :thumbsup:


Now my Sig on the other hand...... :outtahere:

[nada1]

I have one of the new PM9 Kahrs along with 3 Glocks....the Kahr is equal to Glock quality on every point, along with 0 problems of any type in FTF of FTE. It appears that he early PM9's were junk and had big time problems....mine is shot alot and been great, but so have my Glocks

[elbee314]

I have several of each. They are all good in their own right. Boils down to what you want. A good fighting pistol that always goes bang, or a fine example of a small craft house doing its best to make a quality piece, of tiny proportions.

If you want bang for your buck, get a Glock or better yet a revolver, and stop complaining. If it is something more, then look at the SIG's, Rohrbaugh's, Walther's, H & K's, etc............... I have many of each of these. Many of them are fine firearms, and incredible art pieces. Glock is a fighting pistol, nothing more. Its beauty is in its function. Live with it.

[windplex]

Originally posted by elbee314
Glock is a fighting pistol, nothing more. Its beauty is in its function.

Well said.

Glocks also feature the modern german bauhaus design style (read: block like or rectilinear) At least the originals did; Now they are compromising and rounding the noses; very non-bauhaus design.

[Los Suenos]

I've been happy with both. I have had three Glocks go back to Smyrna, all were replaced with a new gun free of charge. I had one lemon Kahr and sold it. Kahrs don't feel cheap to me. Metal sights are stock. The frames on the polymer models are stronger than Glocks are. I own over 20 handguns. They are Glocks, Kahrs and S&W revolvers. Nothing else. I stick with what works for me.

[thefeck]

I bought a new PM9 several months ago. After the obligatory 2-300 rounds it was operating fairly reliably. It would have the occasional stove pipe or failure to return to battery, but it was OK. Then it started to fail to return to battery; then it failed to reset the trigger most of the time (7 or 8 out of ten shots). I tried different ammo; I tried a new recoil spring assembly; tried running it dry; tried running it dripping oil and everything in between. This gun was serial # VC1xxx, so it wasn't the latest VC2XXX they claim fixed everything, but it was close. Since I wanted to use it as my everyday carry gun this just wouldn't do. Traded it in for a Glock 26 -- a little bigger and a whole lot more reliable, like always functions. Kahr has some problems with their polymer guns. Kahr seems to be taking too long to find out the problem and that is not good for our "health".

[tabor-pm-9]

Hmm... I feel that my PM9 is less durrable and reliable than a Glock, but I also feel that it is a lot smaller and it fits my hand better.... but still a great value because it is so small. My slide did have to go back to the factory for barrel peening, but everything is great now. Also, the Kahr polymer frames seem a little cheap compared to the Glock frames. Maybe this is just subjective on my part.

Now, on the other hand, my mom has a K9 and I have no reason to consider it any worse than a glock in any respect (except magazine capacity, of course). If you were to offer me a free K9 or a free G17/19/26, I would take the K9. I like a beautifully machined steel pistol that is still light enough to carry and much easier to conceal than my Walther P99 (see, I don't hate polymer).

[alank2]

Hi,

I had a Kahr K9 years back. I sold it because I shot the G19 so much better right off the bat. I have also had a G19 and G26. Kahr does have the advantage of being smaller and more importantly, thinner. That is where the advantage ends. Read this forum--peening, fte/ftf, break'in periods, bad service, the list goes on. I wanted to get a PM9 or MK9, but I *knew* I'd regret it if I did.

Quality wise, there is NO comparison. How many Glock's have you seen with a busted slide in the front? How many Glock slides peened so badly they wouldn't cycle? Kahr uses soft stainless steel to save on tooling and it shows up in longevity issues. I'm not saying Kahr hasn't made some decent pistols, but they will NEVER last as long as a Glock. I measure quality on how durable and how long something will LAST. They are also overpriced. I wanted to be a fan, but they let me down...

Thanks,

Alan

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by alank2
Read this forum--peening, fte/ftf, break'in periods, bad service, the list goes on. I wanted to get a PM9 or MK9, but I *knew* I'd regret it if I did.

Quality wise, there is NO comparison. How many Glock's have you seen with a busted slide in the front? How many Glock slides peened so badly they wouldn't cycle? Kahr uses soft stainless steel to save on tooling and it shows up in longevity issues. I'm not saying Kahr hasn't made some decent pistols, but they will NEVER last as long as a Glock.

How many K9's have problems? I just searched, no one on this form has reported barrel peening on a K9. What is the busted slide problem you speak of? I would love to hear more. Both of the times that I dealt with Kahr customer service they were just fine. The first time was an excellent experience, the second time was OK/acceptable.

[alank2]

Originally posted by tabor-pm-9
How many K9's have problems? I just searched, no one on this form has reported barrel peening on a K9.

The first K9 I had would not close the slide all the way. It was replaced. The second one worked fine. I have not heard of peening on a K9, but there has been a bunch of peening on recent models.

They can blame it on design, and maybe that is the issue, but how soft is the steel that 300-600 rounds peens it so badly it won't cycle? I read a post about someone who had a stovepipe where the brass made an impression in the slide! Did I see a picture of this, no, could it have been just a post, yes, but it doesn't paint a picture of a strong durable made to last slide.

Originally posted by tabor-pm-9
What is the busted slide problem you speak of? I would love to hear more.

I've read more than one thread about a common failure of MK9's/MK40's is a crack in the front of the slide. My comment here was that Glock uses a much tougher more durable steel.

Originally posted by tabor-pm-9
Both of the times that I dealt with Kahr customer service they were just fine. The first time was an excellent experience, the second time was OK/acceptable. [/B]

I've not dealt with customer service, but there have been many threads on this.

It sounds like I'm bashing Kahr, and perhaps I am. What bothers me about this company is that I think they have a good design that they started out well with, but got cheap over the years. I'm not saying there aren't good Kahr's out there, I'm sure there are some good ones. They've had a bad rep the last couple of years though, and I do think they are overpriced.

The thread was about Kahr quality and Glock quality. Quality for someone else might be fit and finish and not necessarily longevity. For me, the ONLY advantage Kahr has is size, and it has so many disadvantages. I believe if a Glock and Kahr were going head to head in a torture test or to see how many rounds they can go without being shot out, the Glock would win easily.

Thanks,

Alan

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by alank2
I've read more than one thread about a common failure of MK9's/MK40's is a crack in the front of the slide. My comment here was that Glock uses a much tougher more durable steel.

So the PM series and the MK series have troubles. So do every other 9mm+ pistol with a 3" barrel that I have ever seen. Glock doesn't make a pistol with a 3" barrel, do they?

[windplex]

Originally posted by tabor-pm-9
So the PM series and the MK series have troubles. So do every other 9mm+ pistol with a 3" barrel that I have ever seen. Glock doesn't make a pistol with a 3" barrel, do they?

Are you saying that a 3" barrel will damage a slide or cause failues and a 3.49" slide will not? Why is that, pleae explain, I truly wish to understand?

By the way XD offers every caliber (except 45acp) in a 3" barrel model. Are they breaking thier slides? Are their 3" models experiencing the same problems as the Kahr? I truly wish to understand this is not any form of bashing.

Thank you very much -- anyone who can help answer my questions.

[alank2]

Hi,

I don't think it is about the length of the barrel. I think it is about the strength of the steel and that it is probably also too thin (for the strength) at the front of the slide.

Again, I don't want bash anyone's choice, if you have Kahr and love it, great. I just don't think they will last like a Glock will.

Thanks,

Alan

[Dobbler]

Originally posted by tabor-pm-9
So the PM series and the MK series have troubles. So do every other 9mm+ pistol with a 3" barrel that I have ever seen. Glock doesn't make a pistol with a 3" barrel, do they?

Another uninformed overgeneralization bunch of bunk. Why do people post this drivel?

Kahr engineers fine products. Glock engineers fine products. Their design goals, target audiences, and intended uses are not the same. I own both.

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by windplex
Are you saying that a 3" barrel will damage a slide or cause failues and a 3.49" slide will not? Why is that, pleae explain, I truly wish to understand?

By the way XD offers every caliber (except 45acp) in a 3" barrel model. Are they breaking thier slides? Are their 3" models experiencing the same problems as the Kahr? I truly wish to understand this is not any form of bashing.

Thank you very much -- anyone who can help answer my questions.

Because it is a browning action. The length of the barrel relates directly to how much slide travel you get, which relates directly to how much space you have to scoup up a round and slide it into the chamber and how much space it has to decelerate the slide after a round is fired. I stand corrected on the Springfield XD, I was not aware of the 3" model and a quick google shows that the are reliable. However, they are only offered in 9mm and 40 S&W (not 357sig or 45gap).

I am not saying that a 3" barrel is impossible to get to work in a browning action - but it is substantially more difficult than a 3.5" barrel or a 4" barrel.

I have read several reviews of 1911 style pistols from reputable manufacturers that would function just fine in the government and officer models but when they were cut down further would have reliability problems. Feel free to draw your own conclusions. Note -- I am not a 1911 guy and I don't know if the 1911 uses a browning action or not.

As far as slides cracking in the MK pistols, I have never heard of it before, but I suppose it is possible. That said, slides were flying off of Beretta 92s at one time and it turned out that the US Government was running hundreds of proof loads through them before they did. I know I run Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ through my Walther P99 AS and so far it has been able to take it, but I would never run it through a Kahr (well, maybe one of the T's). Unless the cracks can be reproduced in a lab environment we will never know WHY they cracked. I know what sort of reloading my neighbor does and some of it is downright dangerous.

Peace

[thefeck]

I haven't heard this said yet; so I'll say it. Though Kahr builds several models that past the smell test, their polymer framed models do not. I have no idea how many polymer framed Kahrs are out there, but Glock has put over 2.5 million guns in circulation. If you look at all the Glock forums and at all the Kahr forums there is a striking difference: Kahr forums are loaded with complaints about equipment malfunctions and the Glock forums have practically none. The old adage about only failures reach the forums for discussion has no bearing on the above statements. Fact is Glock produces millions of guns that work almost all the time, while Kahr produces perhaps 100's or maybe even thousands of guns that work some of the time. Jump in you Kahr fans.:shocked:

[alank2]

Hi,

I have to agree with "thefeck". If you want a pistol that will last and not give you trouble, go with the Glock. If you want a pistol that will likely give you trouble, have to be sent back multiple times to try to fix it, maybe get it swapped out for another used Kahr, might work for the first 800 rounds and then fail, and that costs way more than the Glock that would have worked in the first place, go Kahr.

I wanted a small pocketable pistol and looked seriously at the Kahr MK9/PM9. The high likelihood that it would be nothing but trouble and expense sent me to get a S&W 442 J-Frame instead and it has been perfect.

It is a real shame because I think Kahr could produce decent pistols if they would start using stronger steel and pay more attention to each one they produce instead of cranking them out.

Alan

[LApm9]

I have observed that it is not barrel length, but thickness and, to a lesser degree, weight, that seems to be the problem. If it was easy to build a reliable pistol thinner than one inch thick, I am sure Glock would be all over it.

If you can abide by a thicker pistol, Glock is your baby. It is a great weapon. If you want something thinner, you may have to sacrifice something. Life is like that, you pay your money and you take your choice.

As for me, I have my presently reliable PM9 for summer wear and my faultless S&W 642 Crimsontrace for heavier clothing.

I hope there is a race between Glock to produce a thin pistol and Kahr to sort out their QC problems. We would all benefit from that!

[cowboywannabe]

Is Kahr better quality than Glock?


with so many pm9 lemons out there that have yet to have their peening and other "fixed", i would say no.

in the beganing, 1999 or so, id have said yes........

but greed go in the way of a good product, so q.c. suffered for the sake of quantity.......and so has the companys reputation.....


now, if they kept their initial lifetime warranty instead of the revised 5 year warranty....you could say they are serious about their product......but even they know they sent crap out of the factory.........

id really like a PM9, i have the money for one right now! yet i cant decide what to get for my new ankle gun because of Kahrs poor q.c.

should i get another J frame?, hows about a seecamp .32, the PM9 was in the running, but no longer so, and im pissed about it/them.


its easy to get the right J frame, just look for the absents of a built in disabling device.....but how do you know a lemon PM9 from a good one? you dont until you get burned....

[jlh2600]

Originally posted by thefeck
I haven't heard this said yet; so I'll say it. Though Kahr builds several models that past the smell test, their polymer framed models do not. I have no idea how many polymer framed Kahrs are out there, but Glock has put over 2.5 million guns in circulation. If you look at all the Glock forums and at all the Kahr forums there is a striking difference: Kahr forums are loaded with complaints about equipment malfunctions and the Glock forums have practically none. The old adage about only failures reach the forums for discussion has no bearing on the above statements. Fact is Glock produces millions of guns that work almost all the time, while Kahr produces perhaps 100's or maybe even thousands of guns that work some of the time. Jump in you Kahr fans.:shocked:

Feck YOU for making so much sense :burn:. But if I end up being half as happy with my (paid for but incoming next week) PM9 as I hvae been with my 34, I'll be dancing the moonwalk.

Even factored in a possible $35 for possible (ONE TIME mind you) trip back to kahr if needed. Just considered it as part of the price of the pistol, to lessen the burn if I have to go that route. If I don't, and it runs out of the box, thats icing. I have been spoiled on glocks, but it's all relative. All perspective. Circles.

[thefeck]

Originally posted by jlh2600
Feck YOU for making so much sense :burn:. But if I end up being half as happy with my (paid for but incoming next week) PM9 as I hvae been with my 34, I'll be dancing the moonwalk.

Even factored in a possible $35 for possible (ONE TIME mind you) trip back to kahr if needed. Just considered it as part of the price of the pistol, to lessen the burn if I have to go that route. If I don't, and it runs out of the box, thats icing. I have been spoiled on glocks, but it's all relative. All perspective. Circles.

My PM9 ran perfectly out of the box. After reading all the negative experiences, I was feeling pretty good about the PM9 and Kahr. After about 500 rounds things started to go downhill. I had some of the "classic" symptoms: failure to return to battery, stove pipes, failure of the trigger to reset completely and failure to feed properly. I was very disappointed because The PM9 conceptually is right on the money. The size is perfect for pocket carry and it shot extremely accurately, when it worked. I have to believe that Kahr made some compromises to shrink the gun and we all are paying the penalty. I notice that the G26 I traded it for has a trigger bar almost twice as wide as the PM9. I notice that the recoil spring assembly in the G26 is much, much heavier than the one in the PM9. Granted the slide is heavier also, but they both fire the same exact round and it is quite easy to see why the Glock is more reliable. In summary, I would guess that the specs on the Kahr are right on edge of what works and what doesn't. The only way to shrink a 9MM and offer full functionality. The Glock specs are undoubtably well into the safe zone. Thus the Glock fires every time and the Kahr fires well for some and poorly for many.

[jlh2600]

How dare you. How dare you.

I was SO back and forth b/t a 26 and the pm9. I based it exactly how you did- ignored the "classic symptoms" reported on the internet, because as you say, it's so conceptually right on... maybe, jsut maybe mine will work.

If it doesn't I'll be right behind you in trading up to a 26!

[Dobbler]

thefeck: Thus the Glock fires every time and the Kahr fires well for some and poorly for many. [/B]

You don't know that. You may want to say that to make yourself feel better that you might be in the "norm" rather than the "exception".

I think if problems were the "norm" Kahr would be long out of business, and the resale on their guns would be zero. It's hard to find a used Kahr at a price that makes them much more attractive over new.

[thefeck]

Originally posted by Dobbler
You don't know that. You may want to say that to make yourself feel better that you might be in the "norm" rather than the "exception".

I think if problems were the "norm" Kahr would be long out of business, and the resale on their guns would be zero. It's hard to find a used Kahr at a price that makes them much more attractive over new.

Of course you are right: I have not the capability to quantify the exact numbers. Anecdotaly (sic) the forums clearly indicate many more problems with the Kahrs than with Glocks. And you have to take note of the fact that every day Kahr sells a gun Glock sells 1000 guns. It would seem to be self evident.

[justinhcannon]

I've been reading kahr forums for a few weeks now...i'm a glock 19er and love it but the thickness is an issue, and until i can physically hold a reduction mod i aint payin for it...and I THINK i want a p9 covert..b/c i know i can handle 9mm recoil better than anything bigger and i like a little longer slide but it is really thin and i don't need a long grip. anyways...my point is that people seem to worship these little S&W snubbies as an alternative to pocket autos and I have no idea why. Oh I had one alright, a 642 i think it was with crmson trace..stainless 5 shot. Put a couple boxes through it (which was when I discovered the term shoot a little carry alot-that sucker STINGS and I shoot a 7mm REM MAG) and I noticed it failed to fire full cylinders an average of 60%. When it's only 5 shots of .38 you need all you can get. Took it back to where I got it...same thing happened when THEY shot it but it happened even more often. They offerred to replace it with one they had in stock...I test fored it and 3 out of 5 shots...not good. When they asked whether I wanted it repaired or replaced I said neither. Thanks for the Lifetime warranty but it doesn't help when my .38 goes "click"! What I am getting at is too many people are crapping on small autos and bowing down to snubbie wheelguns. Some claim revolvers are more reliable...bullsnot. There are usually more parts and more complicated movements...AKA more opportunity for Mr. Murphy to appear. The only real tactical advantages are the FTFire second trigger pull-gets you a fresh one, but like in my scenario I only got 2-3 shots from a full cylinder. The other advantage is the capacity for a more potent round while maintaining a smaller grip. I hope I didn't just kick an AntBed but i hope at least somebody agrees. Honestly I stared at this for a few good moments before posting it.

[justinhcannon]

I should proofread and spell/grammar check this stuff...too late.

[jlh2600]

LOL! This is the first I've ever heard of someone having similar experience as me w/revolvers... (funny that your name is my name too).

When I first decided to buy a handgun, all I knew about them was that revolvers were the benchmark of reliability compared to autos, whose advantages were more in size/weight/capacity/etc. I wanted old school, sacrifice all that for what I thought would be superior reliability. Ironically, out of two revolvers (granted they were taurus and ruger), TO DATE those have been the ONLY two pistols with which I've had ANY kind of failures (talking centerfire here); further those revolvers BOTH had a particular type of incident that I couldn't take care of at the range- had to take them home to fix (and in the gp100's case take the cylinder off). But on a day to day basis, it was not uncommon to have to spin the cylinder around again to restrike a round- maybe a couple of times in a session.

Well I have since fired many times over the round count now in centerfires (also not high end stuff- glock and ruger, at least until next week when my kahr comes in, then we'll see lol). NOT one ftf ftfire fte NOTHING. I was forced to make the switch after I shot a glock, and had to get w/the program. I'll 2nd everything you said.


BTW think about the size savings you would ALREADY get by just moving from the 19 to the noncovert p9 (just in thickniess alone-sadi that was your main issue w/19)- then the noncovert p9 will let you get as many fingers on the grip as the 19 did, but at still considerable thickness savings. But lol don't listento me I don't even have my first kahr yet, and I went super tiny (but just because it's going in the pocket).

[alank2]

Originally posted by justinhcannon
anyways...my point is that people seem to worship these little S&W snubbies as an alternative to pocket autos and I have no idea why. Oh I had one alright, a 642 i think it was with crmson trace..stainless 5 shot. Put a couple boxes through it (which was when I discovered the term shoot a little carry alot-that sucker STINGS and I shoot a 7mm REM MAG) and I noticed it failed to fire full cylinders an average of 60%. When it's only 5 shots of .38 you need all you can get. Took it back to where I got it...same thing happened when THEY shot it but it happened even more often. They offerred to replace it with one they had in stock...I test fored it and 3 out of 5 shots...not good. When they asked whether I wanted it repaired or replaced I said neither. Thanks for the Lifetime warranty but it doesn't help when my .38 goes "click"! What I am getting at is too many people are crapping on small autos and bowing down to snubbie wheelguns. Some claim revolvers are more reliable...bullsnot. There are usually more parts and more complicated movements...AKA more opportunity for Mr. Murphy to appear. The only real tactical advantages are the FTFire second trigger pull-gets you a fresh one, but like in my scenario I only got 2-3 shots from a full cylinder.

Wow, I will agree that you didn't have a good experience with those 2 snubs. I also agree that they are more complicated mechanisms than say something like a Glock. I disagree with the idea that small autos are more reliable however. The problem with small autos is that they don't have enough mass/strength and this leads to parts (recoil springs, metal to metal contacts) that wear quickly and lead to failures. Small light weapons firing anything serious enough for SD are going to take somewhat of a beating, in the case of the snub, it is your hand that takes more of the beating in the form of recoil. A snub will of course wear too, but I don't think as badly as a small auto.

Did they ever figure out what was going on with the 2 snubs? Did anyone lighten the trigger on it? internal lock issue?

I'm not going to crap on anyone's choice--if you want a small auto, go for it. My search for a small pocketable SD gun led me to a $365 S&W 442 and I wouldn't trade it for anything because it is so handy. It has fired 200 rounds over 4 range sessions with zero failures.

Good Luck,

Alan

[justinhcannon]

I never figured out the problem...NOR did I care to. I've spent two tours in the middle east and have ZERO tolerance for malfunctions that are not user-caused and can't be fixed in the field. I might say screw it with the covert and get a KelTec P3AT and stick with my G19 in a (dont laugh) SmartCarry. I LIKE THE DANG THING. It's concealable, comfy, works, and if I thought it was unsafe o point a 9 at my package..well I guess I'll be the first to know. Hey at least I won't get sued if I get hit ;)

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by justinhcannon
I've spent two tours in the middle east and have ZERO tolerance for malfunctions that are not user-caused and can't be fixed in the field. I might say screw it with the covert and get a KelTec P3AT and stick with my G19 in a (dont laugh) SmartCarry.

I am not sure that these two sentances go together. Even the people who like tha P3ATs admit they break periodically and have to be sent back to the factory for repair.

[justinhcannon]

I understand your point about the kelTec. I conversed with a fellow earlier tonight about him getting Keltec's cheap b/c of problems the original owners didnt want to fix. Unfortunately, there is not a single firearm to my knowledge that is incapable of having at least one problem regardless of brand or price. All I'm saying is that so far my Glock 19 hasn't had FTF problems of any sort ( There were a few incidents of operator error do to sweaty palms riding up the grip and engaging the slide stop. Like I said, though, operatpr error.) and Kel Tecs and Kahr seem to be equally reliable/unreliable. Throw in the price tags and that is how I will probably decide. I think the P9 Covert and I would be a perfect match if it was reliable enough. But with the amount of cash being sunk into it I don't want to have to send it back for anything like I'm seeing in these posts. Not when I can get 3 P3ATs for the price. Not arguing just stating my opinio...and I truly value the opinions of others, otherwise I wouldn't be on here.

[jlh2600]

alan, all of those in my story were full size not pocket size, and full size autos too, so I don't yet have any experience with small autos. After I get my pm9 in this week I might be on your side, depending how it runs. So far (for me) autos > revolvers in terms of reliability. I know it's a different ballgame the smaller you get.

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by justinhcannon
I understand your point about the kelTec. I conversed with a fellow earlier tonight about him getting Keltec's cheap b/c of problems the original owners didnt want to fix. Unfortunately, there is not a single firearm to my knowledge that is incapable of having at least one problem regardless of brand or price. All I'm saying is that so far my Glock 19 hasn't had FTF problems of any sort ( There were a few incidents of operator error do to sweaty palms riding up the grip and engaging the slide stop. Like I said, though, operatpr error.) and Kel Tecs and Kahr seem to be equally reliable/unreliable. Throw in the price tags and that is how I will probably decide. I think the P9 Covert and I would be a perfect match if it was reliable enough. But with the amount of cash being sunk into it I don't want to have to send it back for anything like I'm seeing in these posts. Not when I can get 3 P3ATs for the price. Not arguing just stating my opinio...and I truly value the opinions of others, otherwise I wouldn't be on here.

I was at the range earlier today. I was TRYING to get my PM9 to malfunction and I couldn't. I think it has worn in and got more reliable. I probably have 300-500 rounds through it since Kahr replaced my slide and barrel and not a hint of peening. Every time I take it to the range I like it more. Honestly, I didn't have a lot of nice things to say about it when Kahr took six weeks to repair it. However, I later learned that they were out of slides or barrels (I don't remember which) and had to wait for more. However, they could have told me BEFORE I finally emailed them and asked. Oh well, I am still happy I purchased the gun, although for a while I had my doubts.

[justinhcannon]

That's what I mean. There's probably a reason they're out of slides. If there are THAT many people sending them back than that is just ludicrous. I really like the looks of the gun. I want to hold one. But I'm just worried that if I do...I'll buy it...spend way to much for me right now...then get pissed when it starts disfiguring itself. I've gone through quite a bit of soul searching when it comes to handguns:Taurus PT99, Llama Full Size 1911A1, Beretta 92FS, Glock 19 1st Gen , Glock 23 2nd Gen, HK USP Compact both .40 and .45, Para-Ord LDA Carry (2 models, one officer size and one a tad bit longer), Custom Springfield 1911A1, Sig Sauer 229, the INFAMOUS S&W snubbie, and now back to a G19 (3rd gen now). Might have missed a few, can't remember. Loved the slightly-larger-than-officers-model Para, but at the time needed a bigger gun for duty and had a few stovepipes...shot like a champ though; i almost love my G19...just pondering about the grip; everything else I was glad to own, I miss because I like anything that goes boom, but I'm not heartbroken about getting rid of them. I love the way a Glock functions...same trigger pull every shot. So I believe that I'd also like the Kahr P9 Covert. But like I keep saying for that much money it better be one hell of a shooter. I mean is anyone here so in love with a P9 Covert that they can give me a reason to drop that kinda cash? PLZ speak up if you are...I need advice on this one.

[grecco]

they are about the same,
all things mechanical will eventually break.
kahrs usually have tighter tolerences than glocks.


yes there have been issues with the p40 series,
glock has also had its share of problems,
and lets not forget the free ugrades(HIDDEN RECALLS)
just do a search ,,,,,,,

but unfortunately since this is glocktalk,
you will get very bias opinions.

[jlh2600]

is it just the width of the 19's grip you want to trim down on, or are you wanting a short grip too (pinkie dangler)?

[justinhcannon]

you know the more i fondle it and research the less i know. i know that realistically there won't be a dang thing i can do about with. the polymer is thin enough as it is, right? i'll probably wind up sticking an Agrip on it. I hear they keep your hand in place pretty well and dont add alot of size. Might do a small front/back reduction first. I like Advanced Performance's undercut trigger guards, too.

btw...why am i still awake. oh yeah, the VA issued me prozac today so now i can't sleep.

[jlh2600]

sorry to hear it. I'm at least awake b.c I'm at work.

[u084708]

For Justinhcannon,
I have a P9 Covert that I love - very accurate, wonderful trigger, very reliable, and easy to carry.

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by justinhcannon
That's what I mean. There's probably a reason they're out of slides. If there are THAT many people sending them back than that is just ludicrous.

They didn't say that they were out of slides. I just searched through my email and they said that they "had to wait for parts." Now, I highly doubt that they make their own barrels, so it very well could have been a production delay that they had nothing to do with.

[justinhcannon]

this is true. but now I screwed myself. So I went to the only shop around here that has any Kahr's in stock. 2 CW9s, one PM9 and one K9. By comparing the CW9 and the PM9 i say the covert is ideal. But...a USED CW9 (the econo model if i understand) cost me more than my Glock...wtf? Just for *****s and giggles I asked for a price on a new P9 Covert...$719...thats WITH a discount. I think at the age of 24 I've had my first heart attack. Good God that is alot of dough.

[AZ Traveler]

You can alway turn a CW9 into a "CW9 Covert". The only difference between a P9 and the P9 Covert is the length of the grip and the use of shorter mags in the P9 Covert. Its just a matter of shortening the grip. Hacksaw, files, maybe a Dremel and a little time and you'd have yourself a CW9 Covert.

Just take off a little at a time and check the fit with mag for a PM9, MK9 or P9 Covert. (They all the use the same mags.)

FYI all of the longer Kahr mags from longer gripped Kahrs will work in a shorter gripped Kahr of the same caliber. IE: T9, TP9, E9, K9, P9 and CW9 mags will fit in the PM9, MK9 and P9 Covert. However they will stick out of the bottom of the grip with exposed steel.

There is no difference between mags for Polymer Kahrs and Steel Kahrs of the same grip length.

I know of a few Kahr Club members that have created P45 Coverts from their P45s. This is harder because Kahr does not make a shorted mag for the P45.

Around here P9 Coverts go for around $550.

[alank2]

Originally posted by jlh2600
alan, all of those in my story were full size not pocket size, and full size autos too, so I don't yet have any experience with small autos. After I get my pm9 in this week I might be on your side, depending how it runs. So far (for me) autos > revolvers in terms of reliability. I know it's a different ballgame the smaller you get.

Hi JLH2600,

I hope get a good PM9. I really wanted to give a PM9 a chance, but all the peening pictures scared me off. I know myself and at that price, I'd be very ticked off if I had issues with it. I figured the Smith was so much cheaper that if it had a problem, I could live with it, especially since S&W picks up shipping in both directions on repairs.

Good Luck,

Alan

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by AZ Traveler
Around here P9 Coverts go for around $550.

I paid $539 for my NEW PM9.

[justinhcannon]

My thing is the quality and price aspect. I am usually a believer in as far as quality you get what you pay for. Got lucky on the Glock...less than $500 snd it's rock solid so far. Now I have the problem of the P9 Covert and CW9. I refuse to believe without solid proof that the CW9 is as reliable as a P9. I mean if the P9 has issues with it...and they made a cheap version of it I definitely don't understand how it could be improved. Even then it's hard to justify that much money for a CW9. Then spend more to tweak it. Man this is tough.

[tabor-pm-9]

Originally posted by justinhcannon
My thing is the quality and price aspect. I am usually a believer in as far as quality you get what you pay for. Got lucky on the Glock...less than $500 snd it's rock solid so far. Now I have the problem of the P9 Covert and CW9. I refuse to believe without solid proof that the CW9 is as reliable as a P9. I mean if the P9 has issues with it...and they made a cheap version of it I definitely don't understand how it could be improved. Even then it's hard to justify that much money for a CW9. Then spend more to tweak it. Man this is tough.

I used to agree with you. I happened to pay the exact same amount for my Walther P99 AS in 9mm. In most ways, the Walther is (in my mind) 10x the pistol the Kahr is. However, I rarely carry the Walther in the summer, so in a sense the Kahr is very valuable. YMMV

[justinhcannon]

yeah I get what you are saying. with my 19 and a smart carry i'm pretty much good, but on those "i'm feeling sluggish" days wouldn't be fun. The weight of the p series is phenominal. for me, though, would rather I think get a good deal on a used Kahr P9 or P9 covert instead. That is unless I could get a new one for around 500 or so. Arg...confusion.

[justinhcannon]

Well I guess as far as the original topic is, you know my answer. But from firsthand experience honestly I couldn't tell you.

[AZ Traveler]

I went to my favorite local gun dealer this afternoon.

Prices are as follows. P9 Covert $539.00, CW9 $419.00, CW9 Test Fire, $329.00.

The earlier price I gave was my best recollection. I don't look at the price of the nines very often. I prefer the 40's myself. Not a slam at nines, just a personal choice.

IMHO. As far as Kahr problems go. The Kahrs with the most problems have been PM40's and PM9's. The P40 and P9 would be next of the list followed last by any of the Steel Kahrs. I would put the CW9, the P9 Covert and P40 Covert in the same group as the P9 and P40 as they have similar slide, barrel and recoil assemblies.

YMMV

[jlh2600]

Wow 700+ bucks? Get it off the internet. Even on gunbroker I found to be cheaper than my usual standard (buds). The seller I won my pm9 from last week (marshfield arms) has over a 3k rating, and A+. http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=56265704
He gives a discount for all his auctions if you send a money order or check instead of cc, so instead of $515, the buy it now, I got it for 499. No night sights, or black tacticoat, but still a pretty good deal, and he only charges $15 shipping. Buds was like 527 and he charges 25 shipping.

Can't WAIT. Tracking number in hand. Moment of truth approaching.

[justinhcannon]

Yeah I've seen em around 500 all over the net...I dropped some f bombs earlier...think I'll have a visit with that gunshop and see if they can beat the price.

[jlh2600]

Well, consider shops have to pay for us to suck up their air conditioning, online retailers only have to cool themselves and their stock lol. Plus they have to pay those a-holes to sit around for their entire business hours. I wouldn't expect them to match online prices.

It's kind of crappy of me, but I do my "hands on" research in the shops, and buy online. I feel bad about it, especially when they are as nice as letting me open a pocket holster, and alternatately pocket a 26 and a pm9 (about an hour!), experimenting. If the difference was only $20 or so, I'd throw him the business just for being nice. But $165 difference is too much. Even after shipping ($15) and xfer fee ($10), it would have to be a pretty cheap gun for tax alone to be less than that, buying locally (assuming they even match the price that is).

Yeah, stick to online.

[windplex]

Originally posted by jlh2600
Well, consider shops have to pay for us to suck up their air conditioning, online retailers only have to cool themselves and their stock lol. Plus they have to pay those a-holes to sit around for their entire business hours. I wouldn't expect them to match online prices.

It's kind of crappy of me, but I do my "hands on" research in the shops, and buy online. I feel bad about it, especially when they are as nice as letting me open a pocket holster, and alternatately pocket a 26 and a pm9 (about an hour!), experimenting. If the difference was only $20 or so, I'd throw him the business just for being nice. But $165 difference is too much. Even after shipping ($15) and xfer fee ($10), it would have to be a pretty cheap gun for tax alone to be less than that, buying locally (assuming they even match the price that is).Yeah, stick to online.

I always chjeck my dealer first. But he wanted $800 for a G24 and I paid $550 all-in with a tac light and was virtually new -- no signs of use. Even new ones were under $600 on net.

I feel a little better since I pay to use his range and rent guns and when doing so I must buy his over priced ammo. So makes me feel better.

HOwever I do suggest you support your local retailer if you want to have one. Local retail shops can close due to locals buying from internet dealers. And when they do suddenly people then wish they had their local dealer back. Mine drives porshes, hummers, Ducatis so I suspect he is doing ok -- at least that is what I tell myself:)

[USDefender]

Originally posted by BigBadaBooom
I'm just wondering, they seem to be more expensive on the whole.

I don't own a Glock yet, but I love my Kahr. I'm wondering, for my next pistol (if and when that happens) if I should stick with Kahr, or try a Glock.

I'm sure somebody has already said something like this but it's really an 'Apples & Oranges' type of deal.

I seriously respect Glock. But when I went to purchase a 9mm, years ago, I settled on the Ruger P-95 because it worked for me better than Glock, yet had equivalent accuracy & reliability (IMHO). The clincher was that the P-95 was less expensive with better ergos.

Now? I carry a Kahr K40 Covert that I got for a decent price. It's more concealable than the Ruger use to be, and has been rock solid in the reliability, accuracy & quality department(s).

Is Glock a good auto? I'd say it's a damned fine, well designed pistol. Does it work for me? Not as well as others do...but I'll probably still end up owning one before it's all over.

[BarkinDog]

No, not by a long shot!

[3427]

NO

[piste]

YES .yes by a long shot...wasn't that helpful??? Glocks are ergonomic bricks with a barrel hangin out the end. Kahr is indeed going thru a slump....but the underlying design blows away a "Block" any day. Discuss.

[justinhcannon]

I sense hostilities in the near future.

[jlh2600]

I have yet to start the break-in process, so I can't compare functional quality yet (best case scenario this regard would be pm9 is AS good as glock 9's), but just putting them side by side, the exterior of the kahr slide looks nicer, but the underside of the slide is rough (circular etchings throughout); and plastic is far worse- polymer injection point is left HUGE (top rear most corner of frame), thick mold lines, rough slide rails, plastic "fuzz" all over the place (though this stuff works/picks right off). Controls and slide are much more smooth on my 34; kahr's are almost TOO tight, much more lube needed (real test in this regard will be range comparison though). ETA: plus the slide release is way too sharp (seen a mod here for it, will have to look into it).

As far as ergonomics, I hear the "brick" analogy with glocks alot, so there must be something to that. I'm of the opinion that what doesn't fit your hand feels brick-like. For instance, USP's feel like a brick to me, but I would never slander them in this regard, because fit is so dependent on hand shape/size etc, too high of a ymmv factor. I could definitely see how petite men and women who find Kahr to be a perfect fit might find glocks to be bricklike. I guess a brick complements the shape of my hand well, along with (a few) others as well; ymmv.

Warning, this pic is way big, but you can see the huge mold injection button, rough mold lines, and jacked up edges along where the frame meets the slide. Looks alot better now, but glocks are much cleaner. HOWEVER- if I make it through a couple of hundred wwb/cci fmj's and a box of jhp's without a hitch- I won't give a DAMN, and will call glock/kahr quality a wash. They both excel in different areas (ie glock doesn't even offer a comparable counterpart to the pm9.

A 36 vs p45 might be a fair fight though.

[tabor-pm-9]

they made mine right, and now I love it

[skar]

Got my pm9 and g17 at the same time. When you field strip them you can tell the glock is a better gun. (the frame )
Yet so far my kahr works fine. ? on penning
No issues at all with the Glock.

[Moshe]

Can you really compare a PM9 with a G17? Wouldn't a better comparison be the G26?

[skar]

Originally posted by BigBadaBooom
Can you really compare a PM9 with a G17? Wouldn't a better comparison be the G26?
g26 is about the same thickness as a g17 only shorter. A hole lot thicker then the kahr. I like my Kahr pm9 but if glock made a small pocket gun like the PM9 I would buy it and sell my Kahr .(I think)

[thefeck]

Originally posted by skar
g26 is about the same thickness as a g17 only shorter. A hole lot thicker then the kahr. I like my Kahr pm9 but if glock made a small pocket gun like the PM9 I would buy it and sell my Kahr .(I think)

The G26 is a front pocket load; but everytime you need it it works. After owning a PM-9 for 3 months, i wouldn't trust it to go bang any time, let alone everytime.

[jlh2600]

Brought 450 rounds of cci and wwb (fmj's and 147gr jhp's).

Equal numbers of equal type ammo went through each mag (flush and +1):

Waited until after 200 rounds to try any jhps. In the first 50 rounds, there were 3 failure to fires with the flush mag (it's only prob throghout the day), one failure to feed with the +1 (my fault- finger tripped mag release).

Then the jhp's- flush mag no probs. +1 mag, couple of feeding probs, and slide locked back prematurely.

Then went back for another 50 through each mag. No probs with flush, one more failure to feed with +1.

So obviously, it's pretty reliable with the flush mag, after those first failure to fires; the +1 either has a weak spring, or (what I believe): any extended mag to which grip pressure is directly applied is inherently less reliable, ymmv.

Haven;t decided what to do with it yet. Maybe dump the +1, or send it alone back to kahr, see if they'll just replace it. Pocket carry, wouldn't be using it anyways. So I'm thinking I might take it back to the range with ~100 jhp's and the flush mag only. If it runs through those with no probs, then I'll be satisfied with it's reliability.

Btw that was only 350 through the kahr; had to put the last 100 through the glock. It's true, glock (any glock 26 or 34) is not really a fair comparison to kahr, because of the size difference. Of course glock "quality" >> kahr, but let's wait for glocks single stack 3" 9mm as thin as the pm's and see if that trend holds up. Bu the question the op asked is "is kahr better quality than glock", to that I'd say no, but it's more complex than that. Apples/oranges- straight feed ramp/offset feed ramp etc. Smaller, tighter, why it's pickier.

Impressions of the kahr- some things surprised me both +/-. What I thought I really liked about it; the trigger is a whole lot different actually shooting than snapping in a shop. Smooth and light, but pull and reset were sooo looong.

On the positive, it was much more shootable than I thought it would be, was able to shoot it much more accurately than I expected. It didn't even seem to make much of a diference which mag in that respect, could shoot it just as well whether my pinky was dangling or not. And even with the failures it had total (<10 out of 350), it seemed to run well (or the same) even after I dirtied it up with wwb soot (edited to remove puking smiley; a little too nasty).

The biggest disappointmet was the fact that functionality landed in no man's land, if this makes sense. I thought I brought enough ammo to leave with a decision. Like either it would, after however many hundreds of rounds, either run flawlessly, or have a failure every other mag. I don't know how to handle this. I guess one more chance, with the flush mag and jhp's. Thoughts?

[jlh2600]

:hearts:

[jlh2600]

:hearts:

this is pissing me the F off

[MTPD]

Which is better, KAHR or GLOCK?

I have multiple examples of both, and all function flawlessly.

The biggest difference is size and weight. For pocket or deep concealment my 8 shot KAHR CW9 works "best". For belt or IWB carry, my 16 shot Glock-19 gives me twice the firepower.

I'd estimate that I carry my ultra-thin lightweight KAHR +90% of the time. The fat G-19 usually stays home, unless I'm knowingly going in harms way. Then I take both. :thumbsup:

[MTPD]

KAHR prices? I paid $399 for a new CW9, and $355 for a used CW9 with only 100 rounds through it. That was about 9 months ago.

Today there is an ad in the local shopper asking $425 for a used KAHR P9.

Basically they are priced similar to Glocks.

[jlh2600]

Originally posted by MTPD
KAHR prices? I paid $399 for a new CW9, and $355 for a used CW9 with only 100 rounds through it. That was about 9 months ago.

Today there is an ad in the local shopper asking $425 for a used KAHR P9.

Basically they are priced similar to Glocks.

cw9=
no polygonal rifling
one mag
etching vs rollmark
pinned in sights vs dovetail

cw9 is still a super deal, and almost all of the above can be changed/tailored to your preferences, but you just can't use the "budget" kahrs as a pricing benchmark.

$425 for the used p9 sounds pretty good- close to new glock prices though- but I do agree with your ultimate conclusion, they are close enough to be considered "similar" in price. In fact, in support of your position, I actually paid (slightly) more for my 34 than I did my pm9. I also feel like I got a HECK of a lot more gun for the money in the former, ymmv.

[jayp]

Originally posted by jlh2600

The biggest disappointmet was the fact that functionality landed in no man's land, if this makes sense. I thought I brought enough ammo to leave with a decision. Like either it would, after however many hundreds of rounds, either run flawlessly, or have a failure every other mag. I don't know how to handle this. I guess one more chance, with the flush mag and jhp's. Thoughts?

I'm feeling your pain, man.
My Kahr PM 40 went back to the factory for failure to return to battery, was promptly repaired and came back in 12 days. Put 60 rounds through it- much better but not 100%. Gonna try it again, may still need to be "broken in" again, as Kahr replaced the slide and barrel.

I really like this size efficient gun and want it to work out. Keep us posted if you have time.

[jlh2600]

Hmm. So a failure to return to battery, that never OBVIOUSLY happened, but wonder if it could have been enough, like not visually apparent to cause the ftfires? (all this malfunctioning business is new to me lol).

I REALLY don't want to send it back to kahr. I originally prebudgeted $40 in my head if need be, but it's going no reserve style on gbroker before that happens. And I mean, like I say- at most I'd just send the +1 mag (one I wont be using anyways), because three total failure to fires- in ONE box- the first box, and nothing thereafter is not bad with the other mag.

Did they cover your shipping btw? Or just on the way back to you?

Yeah, I'll let you know how the next experiment goes.

[jayp]

Originally posted by jlh2600

Did they cover your shipping btw? Or just on the way back to you?

Yeah, I'll let you know how the next experiment goes.

I think that Dottie at Kahr intended to cover the shipping; she arranged for the FedEx guy to come to my house to pick up the gun. However,the FedEx guy didn't know anything about who was paying, so I put my credit card number on the form, and the charge appeared on my bill.

Took the pistol to the range yesterday- again better but not perfect. A few times the slide locked back when rounds remained in the magazine-easilly cleared by pulling the slide back and letting it ride forward. No failures to return to battery. Guess I'll e-mail Dottie on Monday.

[hrminer92]

Originally posted by tabor-pm-9

Note -- I am not a 1911 guy and I don't know if the 1911 uses a browning action or not.

Well, given that John M Browning invented the M1911 pistol, I would say that it does. :) I do not know now the M1911's action differs from what's in the Hi-Power, though.

[Moshe]

Just thought it might be interesting to know the latest of the starter of this thread.

Bought a Glock 23 and Glock 27 yesterday

Sold my S&W 340PD

Selling my Kahr PM9 today

Selling my Keltec P3AT today

;)

[Moshe]

Update:

Kahr PM9 w/ night-sights sold along with Keltec P3AT. In return I got a brand new Glock G22 plus $25 to pocket.

Yeah sure I got ripped... but I wasn't going to deal with the Kahr or Kahr's service any more. They never return my calls, and each time it goes out for service it doesn't get fixed totally.

It's a shame, because I know there are people who have gotten great Kahrs. I just ended up with what turned out to be a lemon. Personally I think Kahr should have just left it alone and replaced the springs I asked to replace. No new ejection port, etc etc. Worked before that stuff.

It still works. It's just not to my exacting standards for a defensive firearm.

If nothing else though, it would be nice if they could return calls. Doesn't matter at this point. One day I'll get a call from them finally and just be honest and say that I don't own it anymore. :(

[gamboolman]

I bought a brand new Kahr PM-9 because of the size. I had intended on purchasing a Glock 26 or perhaps the compact Springfield but when I saw the Kahr PM-9 and the size - Well...... I bought it.

I have just received my full refund from the Kahr factory on the PM-9. Failure to Feed/Battery were chronic using all types of ammunition and after sending it back to the Kahr factory to be worked on to no avail. I cleaned it and lubed it during shooting sessions, used +P and regular loads of multiple high quality mfgs of ammunition. I went thru ~ 1,500 to 2,000 rounds trying to break it in and get it to function reliably - and I just gave up after the factory failed to address the FTB/FTF issues.

I must say that Ms. Dottie Herold at Kahr is great and that she is very good at customer service. I cannot fault Kahr's customer service. But when I pay ~$600 for a CCW gun that I will depend upon to protect me and my family - well I expect it be able to at least shoot the 7 rounds in it without FTB/FTE.

I bought a Glock 26 and it eats anything I put in it. I have total confidence in the Glock. I carry the Glock in a Tucker Cover-Up IWB when wearing jeans and a shirt tucked in. For shorts and T-shirt which is most everyday in Houston I use the Safe Carry (Thunderwear).

I am not a Khar basher. This is just my experience. I will stick with Glocks as their record and proven reliability is unparalleled. And in the high heat/humidity/sweat environment of Houston for CCW carry the Glock is the best in my opinion.

I wish you and everyone else the best on their PM-9's.

Thanks, gamboolman.....


I really wanted the Kahr to work

[Moshe]

Originally posted by gamboolgal
I really wanted the Kahr to work

My experience was pretty much identical to yours except that mine didn't show problems until Kahr modified it. They may have been there before and whatever Kahr did unmasked them.

It is a shame. I too really wanted the PM9 to work as its size/power ratio is amazing.

Maybe they will one day perfect the PM9 and we can consider it again, but as for the moment, I'm a Glock man. I sold everything else except for my Ruger 10/22 and my Walther P22. My new G27 will have to suffice for the purpose the PM9 was for.

[Marksman44]

Kahr better than Glock-:rofl:

[JMag]

No, not yesterday, today, nor likely tomorrow.

[Alicia28]

I knew this topic would creat alot of debate! Thats why I am staying out of it! I still Love you all.

Alicia:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[windplex]

The Khar has cheap tooling for the frame copared to the glock. It looks like the least expensive far east type.

This might not matter. Except for the looks.

However it might matter regarding performance:

Cheap chinese tooling (and other third worlds) each part of the multi cavity (multi cavity means it will spit out more than one frame each time the machine runs) tooling is made by a different person. And that means that the parts from the different cavities on the same tool do not match; they are slightly different parts or more than slightly different parts.

As I said this might only make the weapon look cheap or it might have some affect on performance as there are metal parts imbedded into the plastic and the slide and other moving parts rely on the location of the metal imbedded into the plastic part. So if one of the cavities has some of the metal parts of kilter a little bit then the weapons producted from that cavity will have ramifications from that out of spec part or part that is at the very edge of the specifications -- what is an acceptable part.

Once I was at a comapny that ordered 10 ounce cups -- a large tool with many cavities. 10 ounce was an industry standard much like 9mm parabellum is -- close it not good enough it does not meet industry standards and one cannot sell them.

Well these third world cheap tools came in at 9 ounces instead of 10 ounces! Kinda like getting your really expensive tooling for your company to product 9mm ammo and you lear it is 8.5mm instead -- not usable! This happens in real life. Good companies like glock pay the high prices for the high quality tooling and it is expensive and yes they could save much money by getting the cheapo tooling like Khar but they don't do that, thank god!

[Alicia28]

I thought Kahr guns were made in Mass and not in China? Are you saying they use Chinese parts? Nothing on the gun or in any part of the manuals that came with it said anything about any of the parts being made in, or imported from China. I checked their website and that didn’t say anything either.

[windplex]

Originally posted by Alicia28
I thought Kahr guns were made in Mass and not in China? Are you saying they use Chinese parts? Nothing on the gun or in any part of the manuals that came with it said anything about any of the parts being made in, or imported from China. I checked their website and that didn’t say anything either.

I am no expert in Kahr guns -- obviously I have been speeling the name wrong I just noticed.

Glad you asked:

One can source tooling from many thrid-world countries to save huge amounts of "tooling costs" or to reduce "fixed costs". And in the third world and especially china tooling is made by hand and by as many people as there are individual cavities so none exactly match the others even though the single tool is meant to pop out identical parts with each cycle.

The cheap tools can be shipped back to the USA and used/run here. a company can save hundreds of thousands of dollars by doing so, but well run companies will not operate such tooling as it has other problems beyound pumping out parts that are not matched.

Alternatively a company can have a third-world company make and operate the tooling in the third world and ship the parts or completed products to the USA.

I would never propose operating a cheap third world tool in the first world operation. However have at times ussed a cheap third world tool operated in China by the firm ordered from until it made sense to manufacture in the USA with high quality tooling. These products were such that tight toleracnes or exact matching parts were not necessary for function of the product. this is a way to get into a business at a relativley low cost and see if the market pans out -- if the product actually sells. If it does then get good tooling and run it night and day. If it doesn't then MUCH less money lost in the new product investment.

Hope this helped. When I see a photo of a Kahr and a glock in green side by side it is apparent that the Kahr looks like an inferior frame product -- the part that is injection molded. I do not know if it is or if it matters to function.

Howeer I have no reason for why any Kahr should be less reliable than any glock. In theory the small Kahr and small Glock should have equal potential for reliability, but from what i have read the G26 is far superior to the average Kahr 9mm. Why is the question to ask.

[Alicia28]

Do you know for a fact that Kahr uses cheap tools and materials from China, do you have any proof? Or is that just an assumption/opinion from you looking at a photo of a Kahr?

Alicia

[alank2]

Hi,

I don't have any idea where Kahr gets it tooling from, but I will say this:

Their workmanship and quality has deteriorated over the years. The very first Kahr's they turned out were very good. When I was thinking about buying one last year I couldn't believe all the terrible pictures of poorly made Kahr's. Maybe it is growing pains, maybe they are using softer metals, maybe they are pushing tooling past the number of parts it should make, I don't know. I will say that it is very obvious that their quality has dropped considerably from what it once was. Their value was good when the quality was good, but at their current price point and quality level, they are not a good value IMHO.

Thanks,

Alan

[windplex]

Originally posted by Alicia28
Do you know for a fact that Kahr uses cheap tools and materials from China, do you have any proof? Or is that just an assumption/opinion from you looking at a photo of a Kahr?

Alicia

Alicia, I have no fact. I merely looked at the photos. A close look at a product would help me see any obvious tell tales, but I still might not know either way. As I mentioned each product produced from each time the tool opens will be slightly different, what I did not say is that there will usually be some marks from cutting off extra plastic or other tell tale marks.

But I know nothing for sure. I only know that I have read of some Kahrs that are highly reliable and some that are reliable after a break in period and some that are not reliable. I find this troubling as I prefer and expect Glock like reliability and see no good reason that a Kahr sized weapon needs to be unreliable.

I am not anti Kahr. On the contrary I wish it would become super reliable like Glock or that Glock would create single stack 9mm Kahr sized 9mm and 40 cals so that I would have a reliable choice.

Just do your homework regarding reliability and make a choice; talk with kahr owners. I care less how something looks and more how it works.

[don527]

I didn't read all the posts in this thread but I can only go by the examples I've seen at gun shops and the one I rented, the all metal MK9 seems to be top notch.

The polymers I'm not sure about cause I read more posts about the PM9s needing to be sent in for tweaking during break-in and other things. But one constant is that Customer Service is great to help correct the issue and get it reliable.

But I really don't know if all that talk about tooling and foreign equipment and stuff has any weight. Who's to say foreign equipment is bad?

You want to see QC/workmanship issues? Look at this post from Sig with pics

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/118106827

And these slides are milled in the USA using who knows what kind of machinery but Sig use to have a rep of high quality and workmanship and Sigs are not cheap. Now they talk about how Sig is not the same Sig it use to be. And their customer support is not getting rave reviews either.

[don527]

Originally posted by windplex
Alicia, I have no fact. I merely looked at the photos.

Oh my gosh.

Then, IMO, there was no reason to have posted all that stuff on foreign tooling and have us question their equipment with no facts to back it up. For all we know it could be asian but it could be the best equipment in the world but you have to bring up foreign tooling and bash it's quality with no proof?

Tanks for nothing.

[windplex]

Originally posted by don527
I didn't read all the posts in this thread but I can only go by the examples I've seen at gun shops and the one I rented, the all metal MK9 seems to be top notch.

The polymers I'm not sure about cause I read more posts about the PM9s needing to be sent in for tweaking during break-in and other things. But one constant is that Customer Service is great to help correct the issue and get it reliable.

But I really don't know if all that talk about tooling and foreign equipment and stuff has any weight. Who's to say foreign equipment is bad?

You want to see QC/workmanship issues? Look at this post from Sig with pics

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/118106827

And these slides are milled in the USA using who knows what kind of machinery but Sig use to have a rep of high quality and workmanship and Sigs are not cheap. Now they talk about how Sig is not the same Sig it use to be. And their customer support is not getting rave reviews either.

Look like they did not polish out the tooling marks from CNC milling. I would call the photo blemishes -- seconds not firsts nor for retail. Hopefully no such marks where metal moving on metal!

[windplex]

Originally posted by don527
Oh my gosh.

Then, IMO, there was no reason to have posted all that stuff on foreign tooling and have us question their equipment with no facts to back it up. For all we know it could be asian but it could be the best equipment in the world but you have to bring up foreign tooling and bash it's quality with no proof?

Tanks for nothing.

Look I saw a fellows photo of his green kahr and g26 side by side and the kahr frame looked hinky.

Perhaps I am completely wrong.

[don527]

Originally posted by windplex
Look like they did not polish out the tooling marks from CNC milling. I would call the photo blemishes -- seconds not firsts nor for retail. Hopefully no such marks where metal moving on metal!

I have a P239 in 40/357sig I bought at the beginning of year NIB.

There are areas where the anodizing is worn on the frame rails leaving shiny metal exposed. I sent pics to Sig with reply, "That's normal."

IMO, I think that's what you get when you make the frame in Germany and the Slides in US and basically find two that fit within tolerances and continue with the assembly.

Many threads with people seeing this and always hear, "It's normal."

Mine even came with a dual barrel (the 357sig) and it didn't fit! I had to ship it so they could fit the barrel. They should have tested it during assembly. Also missed a magazine.

IMO, they have issues now.

BUT... I do love my Sig and it has never had a failure in over 1000 rounds so far and the frame rail wear will probably never cause an issue in my lifetime.

But I do believe the answer of "It's normal" sounds like a cop out to me with a gun at that price point and that they need to improve their QC.

I will say that I think Glock makes a great gun and from my experience have confidence that out of the box it will go bang every time you pull the trigger without really needing break-in so yes I think in those terms it's a better than Kahr.

I think Kahr makes high quality guns but have a spotty rep with their polymers from the little I read. But say again I hear their customer support is awesome which does help.

Don

[windplex]

Originally posted by don527
I have a P239 in 40/357sig I bought at the beginning of year NIB.

There are areas where the anodizing is worn on the frame rails leaving shiny metal exposed. I sent pics to Sig with reply, "That's normal." Many threads with people seeing this and always hear, "It's normal."

But I do believe the answer of "It's normal" sounds like a cop out to me with a gun at that price point and that they need to improve their QC. BUT... I do love my Sig and it has never had a failure in over 1000 rounds so far and the frame rail wear will probably never cause an issue in my lifetime.


Sounds like complete BS. That exposed metal will rust unless has some treatment as Glocks do -- this is non-stainless steel I believe and requires a treatment to prevent rusting. Even some stainless can rust: say "stain less" in two words to better understand this metal's properties.

Sound familiar: Own a Dodge minivan. Took in for service first month and told service manager that tranny has a problem, please fix/replace it. Manager said " they are all like that".

2 years, and 24000 miles, later in the very last month of the warranty I took it to a new dealer and said warranty is about to end, please look it over. New dealers said tranny is ahot and requires replacement. I said It does? The service manager said yes of course didn't you notice how it shifted!? I said I took it in for service the first week becase it shifted that way from the start and the service manager said that "they all worked that way" and it was "normal". The new manager said well it is not normal and you need a new tranny. Thankfully under warranty.

Those Sigs should not show such wear. I suspect the 15000 orders or so from the feds have overwhelmed their capacity temproarily and that Sig has "opened" their specifications much wider to meet demand. So now these products that would have been unacceptable to Sig in the past are being called "normal" when only a few years ago have been rejected and destroyed; sold off without warranty as seconds /blems; Or fixed before sale.

Originally posted by don527
Mine even came with a dual barrel (the 357sig) and it didn't fit! I had to ship it so they could fit the barrel. They should have tested it during assembly. Also missed a magazine.

IMO, they have issues now.

Sure sounds like it.

Originally posted by don527
I will say that I think Glock makes a great gun and from my experience have confidence that out of the box it will go bang every time you pull the trigger without really needing break-in so yes I think in those terms it's a better than Kahr.

I have only experienced 100% perfect performance from my 9 and 40.

[Moshe]

Ok, there have been some things that need to be addressed.

First -

About the outsourcing to China - I do not believe this to be the case. The parent company of Kahr is Saeilo. Saeilo's other operation is SMI, a company which specializes in CNC machining and manufacturing. Whether or not SMI's operations involve Chinese built parts and/or machines, I cannot say, but I would doubt it. Their machines are more likely custom built, or at least US built as the cost of importing CNC machining equipment from China would be prohibitive and I can't imagine it being profitable for any company unless they had some super-strategic logistics operation.

Second -

I don't know if anybody noticed but Guns & Weapons For Law Enforcement (magazine) did a review of the P45 recently and gave it stellar marks. I was really surprised. I was even more surprised when the article emphasized that it ate anything fed to it.

Kahr actually does have a very innovative product and they hold several patents. If they can get their QC down I believe that they'll be a major contender. The problem is that their QC isn't quite there yet. When I bought my PM9 I thought, "It can't be as bad as some say, the internet breeds exaggeration." - at first I was right. When things went South though, Kahr just wasn't there. They called and offered to replace it, ironically (not intentionally of course) the same day I had sold it literally a matter of 2 hours later. I had left a message about 4-5 days before.

As for customer service, I've dealt with their customer service. I wasn't impressed. Warranty issues are directed to I believe one person (Dottie). You can leave her a message and maybe she'll get back to you in a few days. One time it took 2 weeks. If you call Kahr, don't expect to talk to anybody at that moment.

Glock on the other hand has somebody picking up the phone any time I call. I called just yesterday asking how to take apart a mag. The guy was enthusiastic about helping me. Glock's customer service has been great so far.

I can't wait until the day Kahr gets their act together, but we can all assume that it will be a long time until I buy a Kahr product again.

[Moshe]

Here's the difference between Kahr and Glock, I have witnessed it firsthand.

Kahr PM9 - misfeeds, serious break-in period, picky about ammo because of the long feed-ramp. 75-100+ misfeeds out of 1,300 rounds.

Glock 22, 23, and 27 - about 300-400 rounds through each. Number of misfeeds or misfires = 1. There was 1 feeding jam on the 22 because the Lasermax takedown switch spring wasn't all the way down in place. Since fixing it it works 100% and there have been no issues. There were 0 incidents of any kind on the 23 and 27. That makes a HUGE difference. As far as break-in - I'm not sure there is one.

[Kalmah]

Originally posted by Moshe
Here's the difference between Kahr and Glock, I have witnessed it firsthand.

Kahr PM9 - misfeeds, serious break-in period, picky about ammo because of the long feed-ramp. 75-100+ misfeeds out of 1,300 rounds.

Glock 22, 23, and 27 - about 300-400 rounds through each. Number of misfeeds or misfires = 1. There was 1 feeding jam on the 22 because the Lasermax takedown switch spring wasn't all the way down in place. Since fixing it it works 100% and there have been no issues. There were 0 incidents of any kind on the 23 and 27. That makes a HUGE difference. As far as break-in - I'm not sure there is one. I've had more problems with my Beretta than with my PM9. I've had more problems with my Sig than with my PM9. And I'm sure I've had at least one jam with one of my Glocks, so that means my PM9 has been even more trouble free than a Glock.

So that's the difference between Beretta/Sig/Glock and Kahr. I've seen it firsthand.

[Moshe]

Originally posted by Kalmah
I've had more problems with my Beretta than with my PM9. I've had more problems with my Sig than with my PM9. And I'm sure I've had at least one jam with one of my Glocks, so that means my PM9 has been even more trouble free than a Glock.

So that's the difference between Beretta/Sig/Glock and Kahr. I've seen it firsthand.

Fair enough. lol :banana:

You caught me when I misspoke. I should have said, "As I have seen firsthand"

For the record, I hated the Beretta 92f (Assuming that's what we're talking about?). I had loads of jams with it.

Kalmah - if your PM9 works that well - DON'T EVER SELL IT!!!!!!!!!! You got lucky. I unfortunately didn't win the Kahr lottery as it seems to be called. I might - repeat MIGHT get a PM40, or equivalent a year or two down the road when hopefully things have been better worked out. Maybe an MK though instead.

But I think on the whole we can all agree that there seem to be more unhappy Kahr owners (at least vocally on the internet) than unsatisfied Glock owners? The only arguments I hear about Glocks is that they're ugly and have no actual safety.

Personally the only thing I don't like about my Glocks is that my Glock 27 isn't as small as say a Kahr PM40. That would be great. Unfortunately I don't feel I can trust Kahr at this point in time. I might some day though.

[jlh2600]

Originally posted by Moshe
As far as break-in - I'm not sure there is one.

I'm sure there is not. For me, "break in" = "do not buy".

[Alicia28]

I've had more problems with my Beretta than with my PM9. I've had more problems with my Sig than with my PM9. And I'm sure I've had at least one jam with one of my Glocks, so that means my PM9 has been even more trouble free than a Glock.

Well that means that all Kahrs are more reliable than ALL Sigs and all Beretta's (based on the logic of this thread of course). Even better, if you had seen a photo of a Beretta and a Sig jamming, then it definitely means they are less reliable. Even better, if we saw one photograph (actually a post mentioning this, not even a photograph) of a frame having a little wear on a Sig, then we can assume that the entire company's QC has gone down because they are so overloaded from the 15,000 order from the Feds (not a strong assumption from one case now is it!). Now I know that if I see one photograph of one individual gun (or even a description of the photograph) I can definitely assume that not only the rest of the manufacturers guns are like that, but their guns are assembled in a third world country, or use cheap low quality machinery in this country, and their QC has been flushed down the toilet. Because after all, one photograph can tell you all those things and much more. What a scientific approach!

Haa haa. Just kidding!

Alicia:hearts: :laughabove: :hearts: :laughabove: :laughabove:

[jlh2600]

:bunny:

[Moshe]

Originally posted by Alicia28
Well that means that all Kahrs are more reliable than ALL Sigs and all Beretta's (based on the logic of this thread of course). Even better, if you had seen a photo of a Beretta and a Sig jamming, then it definitely means they are less reliable. Even better, if we saw one photograph (actually a post mentioning this, not even a photograph) of a frame having a little wear on a Sig, then we can assume that the entire company's QC has gone down because they are so overloaded from the 15,000 order from the Feds (not a strong assumption from one case now is it!). Now I know that if I see one photograph of one individual gun (or even a description of the photograph) I can definitely assume that not only the rest of the manufacturers guns are like that, but their guns are assembled in a third world country, or use cheap low quality machinery in this country, and their QC has been flushed down the toilet. Because after all, one photograph can tell you all those things and much more. What a scientific approach!

Haa haa. Just kidding!

Alicia:hearts: :laughabove: :hearts: :laughabove: :laughabove:

Well, most of us aren't stating what we say based upon secondhand facts or pictures. I started this thread when I bought my Kahr PM9 wanting to know what people thought about them vs the G26. I was very surprised when I had to actually chime in on my own thread with a negative experience. I haven't owned a G26, but I do own a G27 which would be the main competitor to the PM40/P40.

[thefeck]

Originally posted by Kalmah
I've had more problems with my Beretta than with my PM9. I've had more problems with my Sig than with my PM9. And I'm sure I've had at least one jam with one of my Glocks, so that means my PM9 has been even more trouble free than a Glock.

Moshe:

You have been right on with your analysis. There should be no dispute that the factual evidence presented on these forums proves that the Kahr PM9 and PM40 are not even close to being as reliable as a Glock 26/27. On the Glock forums people talk about where to get the best holsters; what their last range outing produced; what ammo is best for self defense; where to buy additional Glock magazines cheap; etc. On the Kahr forums almost the entire subject matter is either "has this happened to you yet?" or "my PM9 just went home to Kahr". Since the message volume on the Glock forums is much, much higher there is a multiplier effect that makes comparison of Kahrs and Glocks even more pronounced.

I too bought a PM9 with a VC..... serial #. That means it was not one of the initial runs of PM9's. Mine worked perfect out of the box and through about 500 rounds. Then the typical: wouldn't go into battery; trigger wouldn't reset; FTE & FTF problems. I traded it in on a Glock 26 in August 2006. The 26 has not had one problem firing over 800 rounds of all types of ammo including +P. I was never a Glock fan because they ARE ugly. Now you couldn't take mine away from me and in fact the 26 is seeming a little more "pretty" all the time.

[Colorado4Wheel]

Originally posted by thefeck
Moshe:

You have been right on with your analysis. There should be no dispute that the factual evidence presented on these forums proves that the Kahr PM9 and PM40 are not even close to being as reliable as a Glock 26/27. On the Glock forums people talk about where to get the best holsters; what their last range outing produced; what ammo is best for self defense; where to buy additional Glock magazines cheap; etc. On the Kahr forums almost the entire subject matter is either "has this happened to you yet?" or "my PM9 just went home to Kahr". Since the message volume on the Glock forums is much, much higher there is a multiplier effect that makes comparison of Kahrs and Glocks even more pronounced.


Yes, and I post a good report about my Kahr TP9 on this forum. It's viewed over 50 times but not a single comment. Post a negative comment on any Kahr and this forum and people from this forum are all over that thread. Hardly conclusive evidence in my book. After reading multiple sites about Kahr's a couple things are obvious. A lot of people don't have a clue how to treat a gun made to tight tollerances. It needs a good breakin. People are selling the things before they hit 200 rounds. Also, I would not get a new model car, neither would I get a new caliber cambering of any model of any gun. Wait a year, so how that new caliber works in that gun. And, don't forget the Glock is made as a military weapon. It's loose so that it can be reliable with everything. Kahr is made tight. If they made it looser they would loose accuaracy. It's a small carry weapon. Not a military mud gun. Every gun maker has returns. Can Kahr be better, sure, but I have no complaints about my TP9 and it's a hell of alot thinner then the Glock which is worth a lot in my book. It also seems clear that people with the bigger Kahrs in 9mm are happier with their guns. Also, do a google search for a Kahr forum. There are two that are easy to find. This one and firearm forums. Anyone looking for a place to complain about their Kahr has a total of two places to go. I am also convinced that a lot of people shooting PM9/40 should never have bought the thing. The grip is too narrow and short to properly grasp. People limp wristing the thing becomes a distinct possibility. The small glock has a fatter easier to grasp grip. This forum is littered with people who have problems with their PM's and Forty's with firing pin issues. I wouldn't own either a Kahr 40 or a PM of any kind at this point.

[windplex]

[________________________________________
Originally posted by Moshe
Ok, there have been some things that need to be addressed.

First -

About the outsourcing to China - I do not believe this to be the case. The parent company of Kahr is Saeilo. Saeilo's other operation is SMI, a company which specializes in CNC machining and manufacturing. Whether or not SMI's operations involve Chinese built parts and/or machines, I cannot say, but I would doubt it. Their machines are more likely custom built, or at least US built as the cost of importing CNC machining equipment from China would be prohibitive and I can't imagine it being profitable for any company unless they had some super-strategic logistics operation.
________________________________________


I tried to make my point clear that it related to the injection molded parts. Sorry I confused. Plastic in these guns is injection molded and one can use either excellent tooling or cheap tooling. One can source a low value component and still claim made in America as most of the "value" was indeed made or contributed in America. The frame is a relatively low value part and so a company might out source it and still possibly claim made in America.

CNC or computer numeric control pertains to milling metals mostly. Although on can mill plastics but not frames due to their stapes and it would be highly expensive to CNC frames versus injection molding them. Plus one could not imbed the metal bits in the frame if the frames were CNCed.

A company that specialized in CNC work is unlikely to delve into injection molding as it is an entirely different skill set, so I will bet it is outsourced to another company whether USA or other place.

I have not heard of CNC machines that are of poor quality -- that is that they do not follow the computer program that is programmed into them to produce the part desired. I suggest that any issue of quality of CNC machine is a non issue as it relates to pistol function.

The Sig picture shown lacked the finishing required after CNCing. CNC work leaves a part that is roughed into shape and to make it pretty -- shinny; the small lines in the surface must be polished out -- for an "A" surface.

for other surfaces one could skip the polishing -- for instance a Harley part that gets a crinkle paint finish is unlikely to require the high polish work (expensive) that a chromed part required.

Hope this helps.

Edited for atroshis spelling.

[alank2]

Hi,

Originally posted by thefeck
You have been right on with your analysis. There should be no dispute that the factual evidence presented on these forums proves that the Kahr PM9 and PM40 are not even close to being as reliable as a Glock 26/27. On the Glock forums people talk about where to get the best holsters; what their last range outing produced; what ammo is best for self defense; where to buy additional Glock magazines cheap; etc. On the Kahr forums almost the entire subject matter is either "has this happened to you yet?" or "my PM9 just went home to Kahr". Since the message volume on the Glock forums is much, much higher there is a multiplier effect that makes comparison of Kahrs and Glocks even more pronounced.

I too bought a PM9 with a VC..... serial #. That means it was not one of the initial runs of PM9's. Mine worked perfect out of the box and through about 500 rounds. Then the typical: wouldn't go into battery; trigger wouldn't reset; FTE & FTF problems. I traded it in on a Glock 26 in August 2006. The 26 has not had one problem firing over 800 rounds of all types of ammo including +P. I was never a Glock fan because they ARE ugly. Now you couldn't take mine away from me and in fact the 26 is seeming a little more "pretty" all the time.

I couldn't agree more. I really don't know why people even attempt to debate this. From what I've seen in this forum alone--it is a one two punch for Kahr--IF you are lucky enough to get a pistol that works right off the bat (and that is a big IF), then the question is IF it will last and not peen itself open or shut within 500 rounds.

For the people who have a good one--congrats--I hope it stays that way. I *thought* about taking a chance on buying a PM9 last year, but I had NO DOUBT I would have regretted that decision.

Thanks,

Alan

[Alicia28]

You guys are too much. I was never debating the quality of Glock vs Kahr, read my post. I was making fun of jumping to all kinds of crazy conclusions from looking at a single photograph of one handgun!

[windplex]

Originally posted by Alicia28
Well that means that all Kahrs are more reliable than ALL Sigs and all Beretta's (based on the logic of this thread of course). Even better, if you had seen a photo of a Beretta and a Sig jamming, then it definitely means they are less reliable. Even better, if we saw one photograph (actually a post mentioning this, not even a photograph) of a frame having a little wear on a Sig, then we can assume that the entire company's QC has gone down because they are so overloaded from the 15,000 order from the Feds (not a strong assumption from one case now is it!). Now I know that if I see one photograph of one individual gun (or even a description of the photograph) I can definitely assume that not only the rest of the manufacturers guns are like that, but their guns are assembled in a third world country, or use cheap low quality machinery in this country, and their QC has been flushed down the toilet. Because after all, one photograph can tell you all those things and much more. What a scientific approach!

Haa haa. Just kidding!

Alicia:hearts: :laughabove: :hearts: :laughabove: :laughabove:

Alicia, I was trying to be helpful. Apparantly I made a mistake doing so and hit some sore spots with more than one person.

And while I was direct and open and respectful, you guys thought the apropriate response was to mock. But also to mock without copying me so I was unlikely to see it. Alicia you are a coward, but you already know that.

By the way your mocked me and gave thie mocking Sig anology left out the fact that a multitude sig owners have posted reports of the same types of blemishes/problems showing up on their weapons. And that Sig customer service responded to all of them that "it is normal". I reacted to and included that info into the what I provided.

By the way, looks can be telling. But you do not really want to hear anything factual other than glowing reports of your dear kahrs. I on the other hand like to read all info about kahrs and my dear glocks so I can make an informed decision regarding what to buy and keep.

The look of one frame can tell a knowledgeable person things about how it was manufactured. Yes some people possess knowledge other do not. Life is so unfair. Some people study and learn and that is not fair to those who dont. Isn't it?! When one determines something about one product from one company then one does know the same thing about the other products in the same line. It is not magic orpretend it is hard earned knowledge.

I made my comments conservatively -- that means I overstated nothing and likely understated everything. Hopefully you did notice I answered you questiions honestly, but you did not know I was conservative there too. I would rather understate than overstate what "i know".

Now that you have determined in your own minds that I am wrong on every count then it would only be natrual to do the opposite of what I suggest. I suggest selling your kahrs until kahrs become as reliable as glocks. And I do hope kahr does bring its reliability up to glock standards! I like thier size.

So this means you will sell all your glocks and buy all kahrs to replace them ASAP. I truly hope your kahr's don't fail you when you need them most. However with kahr fantastic customer service you can REST assured whom ever you bequeath your kahr to will receive excellent service when they send it in for repair after it fails you.

All the best of luck, may your kahr work every time you pull the trigger!

[Alicia28]

No, I am not a coward, if I was I would have hidden my message from you instead of posting it here for EVERYONE to read. And what do you mean I didn’t "copy" you? I posted my message on this public thread, what are you talking about? If I were a coward I would have made all kinds of untrue and false assumptions about entire companies operations from looking at a single photograph, but I am not a coward so I don’t do that. I was simply saying with a little humor not to make all of these gigantic assumptions without having a single shred of fact and/or evidence at all, which of course you had none, which made it even funnier/crazy/waste of all of our time that you kept on making those assumptions from a single photograph. I never once attacked your character, and then for you to start writing posts accusing me of being a coward and hiding posts from you when I posted them for the entire world to see (yes, including you), well you obviously have some work to do, on yourself! Get a life!

Alicia:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Moshe]

Windplex - I have no idea where they get their polymer stuff from. You're right on that. I misunderstood. It's unlikely that they'd have a whole setup for that, although I suppose it's possible that they have maybe a machine or two for it. I don't get the impression that they have to pump out as many polymer frames as say Glock, HK, Sig, or others. They might outsource that or they might do it in-house. I have no idea.

I can say that on the PM9 which I sold, the polymer frame was interesting. The rails were not a very strong plastic and were peeling and getting ground-down quite a bit. That didn't matter much though so I didn't worry about it. The rest of the frame seemed pretty strong. I got the impression that for weight issues, there was some special type of polymer used because the PM9 frame weighed much less than other polymer frames I've felt. Bear in mind that it also doesn't contain much mechanics, so that might have something to do with it. The frame wasn't like my Glocks which seem to look as good as new no matter how many times I fire them. Maybe it has to do with stronger polymer, or better machining - but I think it also may just be design related. The Glocks don't have any exposed frame in the rail areas. The Kahr had the entire front rail as part of the frame.

No sore spots hit here though. I just wanted to point out some facts that I was aware of so we're all on the same page. All in all I know not a thing about the manufacturing of the polymer frames.

Alicia - I knew you were kidding around. You even said "Just kidding" at the end of your post. ;) I just took advantage of your comment to mention that many of us debating the issue were speaking from our experiences with Kahr and Glock. I figured it was worth mentioning.

Colorado4Wheel - That's great about the TP9 working so well for you. As for people jumping all over Kahr when there is something negative to say - all I can say is that this is EXACTLY what I thought when I bought my Kahr. I figured it was baloney. Most of what you read online is. This just happened to be something I would have been better off listening to. I only post now about my bad experience in the hopes that others won't make my mistake and save a couple hundred dollars in the process. It should be noted that I'm not a Glock fanboy. I've had great experiences with my new Glocks. I will admit I was hesitant to buy them too. What I was leaning towards was Sig or HK. I'll bet there are plenty of other guns that work just as well though. Maybe even some model Kahrs for all I know. I am being generic in my statements and am assuming for the moment that Kahr quality is a company-wide issue rather than a model-specific issue. I could very much be wrong though, and it certainly wouldn't be the first time I have been.

Many people do sell guns prematurely. With my PM9 I put somewhere over 1000 rounds (I think) through it before I gave up. It had 2 visits back home and would have had a third had I not sold it.

As for your TP9, I really am glad to hear you've had good experiences. I have not seen the TP9 in person. I assume it is a full-size pistol? Seems like it has a 4" barrel from what I read. I was thinking at first that perhaps being larger it might not have the elongated feed-ramp which I believe was the major culprit with my PM9, but looking at the parts list it seems to have the same feed-ramp as other Kahrs. I'd be interested in knowing what is different between the TP and the PM series that could result in such different results. Or perhaps you are one of the lucky ones who won the Kahr lottery.

Who knows. It may not be the politcally correct thing to say, but opinions about guns and gun-brands are like *******s. Everybody has one. Chances are I'm just as wrong as the next guy. All I can say though is what I've experienced myself. Until I personally see otherwise, I unfortunately am left with the bitter taste in my mouth that I have gotten from Kahr.

My congrats to those Kahr owners who have gotten lucky, especially those with PM series guns as they have the ultimate concealable weapon in a significant caliber in my opinion (aside from perhaps a S&W J-frame .357 magnum).

[Moshe]

seeing that it gets blocked out by the forum filter (even though it's not being used as a profanity and is being used as an anatomical reference) I guess you guys will have to figure out what word I was using. Oh well. It should be obvious though.

[Colorado4Wheel]

Originally posted by alank2
then the question is IF it will last and not peen itself open or shut within 500 rounds.


Well, I am 1/2 way to throwing my gun away and it's a week old. I sould know by the end of the month about the 500 rounds because that won't take long for me to hit. Trust me, if it's a piece of **** you and the rest of this forum will know it. But, likely is that it will be just fine at 1000 rounds and everyone here will just ignore the issue and say I got lucky. I wouldn't put 1000 rounds a year thru a PM9. I wish I had my dies so that I could load it up and get my 500 tommorow.

Originally posted by Moshe


As for your TP9, I really am glad to hear you've had good experiences. I have not seen the TP9 in person. I assume it is a full-size pistol? Seems like it has a 4" barrel from what I read. I was thinking at first that perhaps being larger it might not have the elongated feed-ramp which I believe was the major culprit with my PM9, but looking at the parts list it seems to have the same feed-ramp as other Kahrs. I'd be interested in knowing what is different between the TP and the PM series that could result in such different results. Or perhaps you are one of the lucky ones who won the Kahr lottery.

I bought my gun from a local instructor/dealer. He sells plenty, I know other people with P9's with no issues. The TP9 is basically a P9 with a longer barrel and slide. That and the novak night sights on the tatical.

[panzer1]

Originally posted by Moshe
I'm just wondering, they seem to be more expensive on the whole.

I don't own a Glock yet, but I love my Kahr. I'm wondering, for my next pistol (if and when that happens) if I should stick with Kahr, or try a Glock. Nice try.Go with glock.