View Full Version : Remington 700 barrel issues
I wanted to change the caliber and use a bull barrel in remington model 700. I bought a short chambered bull barrel, an action wrench, barrel vise, -push through reemer, go/no-go guages, the works from midway. I tried for a week to seperate the barrel from the action. Then I decided I would just pay the local smith to do it, so I droped it off to him. I just got it back yesterday and I am deciding on what to do. The gun smith used kroil and penatrating oil available, heat guns, freezers, a 16 ton press and his buddy, but could not budge the barrel. The barrel looks a little worse for wear, but he said it was still shootable. Does anyone have a trick to pull these barrels? Does a rough looking 700 have any value? He machined two flat spots into the barrel, in a thick portion away from the chamber. I plan on re-asmebling everything and shooting it next weekend if I can't get it apart before than.:steamed:
I would be willing to swap if a smith needs a toy, I need a long action reciever to complete this project.
Just the cost of buying a new barrel is more than the boot you would have to pay to trade your rifle for a heavy barrel 700 (at least, before the gunsmith got ahold of it). Actually, unless you are a really bad trader, just the cost of the gunsmith stuff you bought was probably more than trading would have cost. The easiest and cheapest and most reliable way to change a rifle barrel, if you aren't a gunsmith with a shop, is to trade rifles.
Never had this problem with a 700, but have with other guns (old Mausers cqan give fits sometimes).
Here's something that should always work if your barrel hasn't been epoxied in or something (in which case you heat the barrel, not the recieiver, red hot a few inches in front to the recoil lug with a wet towel wrapped around the receiver to destroy the epoxy without overheating the receiver. BUT be absolutely sure this is the probelm before you do this):
With the barrel and receiver between centers on a lathe, use a parting tool to carefully cut a relief in front of the recoil lug in the barrel shoulder (cut a groove in the barrel that is just touching the lug face without cutting into it). This should releive any torque on the barrel threads and the barrel should then unscrew with very little effort, possibly by hand. If it doesn't then you have some type of epoxy or cyanoacrylate glue on the threads (possibly rust or corrosion but not as likely). If this is the case try soaking it in a bath of Kroil for a few days and if this doesn't work use the heat method above.
If all of this fails, just whack the barrel off in front of the lug, set int in a lathe and bore the barrel out with a boring bar to withing a few thou of the minor diameter then use a tap to cut the remaing barrel remnants out of the threads (assuming they havent satrted to fall out yet in which case just use a pick to get them out) or cut the threads in the lathe with an internal 60 degree threading bit (this is a truing operation for blueprinting the action anyway). If you rethread in the lathe, it is best to cut to a standard oversize and order a barrel threaded in that size (a standard procedure if you are building a high precision rifle anyway). You could have a gunsmith do this or take it to any small local machine shop and have them to it for (probably) a lower cost. Any machinist will understand what you mean by cutting a relief in front to the lug to relieve the torque.
BTW, are you using a barrel vise that has aluminum inserts tapered to your barrel? Wooden inserts are'n very good for tight barrels, aluminum grips like it is welded on if it has full contact with the barrel taper. Machining flats on a barrel is (usually) a waste of machine time. If an aluminum insert in a press wont hold it, flats won't either. Make SURE you have an action wrench that fits the reciever perfectly and uses a hardened screw in the front bolt hole (where the front stock screw goes).
One thing to check for before doing anything. Make sure someone hasn't tapped into the barrel and run screws or inserts into it through the scope base holes. This can happen if someone is tapping it to use a larger screw or to repair a strip out.
My vise had wood blocks, but I tried some aluminum jaws I had hanging around as well. The smith had a real vise, with aluminum inserts. He tried heat as well as cold. He's stumped and I'm stuck.
It's not really about the money, It's an I want. Bad way to make decisions, but I don't splerge on my self that often.
I'll work on it again this weekend hopefully. Thanks for the input.
cwshootersupply
09-24-2006, 23:22
I would chop off old barrel and then machine stub out of action.
It's Off!!:banana:
I only had hand tools and the smith bent the barrel, so I fixed it. I used a dremel on the barrel and cut against the recoil lug. I have new of both, but I barely touched the lug.
So now that I have the action seperate from any barrels. Any prep work you would recommend? I will be phosphating it, the lug and barrel and then chasing the threaded holes when done.
Using the Dremmel on the barrel to relieve the shoulder tension is a pretty neat idea.
Before putting the new barrel on, you might want to lap the lugs, maybe true the action face if you have acess to a lathe, or have a smith or machinist do it (it's pretty simple to do, just a thou or so cut across the front of the action, mounted between centers on a mandrel, to make absolutely sure it's square with the axis).
Facing the action has potential accuracy benefits, it's usually done as a part of building a precision rifle but probably isn't really needed on most actions.
Lapping the lugs for a precision fit of the bolt to the action is a definite advantage and is quite a simple process.
It was mostly desperation, my rifle was F'ed.
Lapping to me is polishing to a flat/smooth surface, same idea?
Thanks for the help.
Yeah, polishing the lugs against each other so that you have an exact fit is what you want to do.
What you are trying to accomplish by lappng the lugs is to get the rear surface of the bolt lugs and the front surface of the receiver lugs into an exact fit with each other.
This is accomplished by putting a little lapping compound (special abrasives are made for this, I usually just use valve lapping compound though) on the rear surface of the bolt lugs or front surface of the receiver lugs and carerfully inserting the bolt (avoid getting lapping compound all over the inside of the reciever and grinding on stuff you don't want to grind on) then opening and closing the bolt with pressure applied rearwards on it.
To check your progress, clean the lugs of all compound then paint some dyekem, or magic marker, on the rear of the bolt lugs. Close and open the bolt several times while pulling backwards on it then check to see the rub marks on the rear of the bolt lugs. What you are trying to get is completely even contact on both lugs, at least 80% of the surface of both making contact.
If you check the contact before you start you can get a better gauge of progress. Poor accuracy is going to be caused by uneven contact of the lugs, as in one side making solid contact and the other making poor contact (usually only on the outer edge instead of completely across the lug face) causing the bolt face to twist under firing pressures, or both making contact only on the edge of the lugs, or in severe cases only one lug making contact. You want to lap them untill you get even contact completely across the lug surface on both lugs with at least 80% of the lug surface making contact (100% isn't always practical if you have severely mismatched lugs). This MUST be done before headspacing as you may end up setting the bolt back several thousandths by the time you finish.
You can buy a laping tool or make one out of your old barrel stub, a spring, and a brass bolt or rod (small enough that it doesn't damage your extractor if you don't want to remove it). You can also just pull back hard on the bolt while you lap it if you don't mind the tedium.
So the tool pushes the bolt away from the barrel, that sounds easy enough to fab up. Thanks!
I finally got the bolt to close on my reamer. Tomorrow (with a little luck) I'll pull the lug off and try to figure out how thick the lug needs to be for head spacing.
Lesson learned so far, short chambered doesn't mean the chamber is perfect and only need a little messaging to get right. After the first few hundred turns of the reamer my head space guage fell into the chamber, the bubble near the rim finnally went in to the chamber. It wasn't doing that the first time I measured.
Fitting a barrel can be a mysterious process the first time you do it, but it's mostly a process of very carefull measurement using a depth gauge. Sometimes it helps to draw out a sketch of the assembled bolt, receiver, and barrel and write the measurements down next to the appropriate parts so that you can visualize more closely what you are doing and attempting to achieve.
Some of the video's over on smartflix (used to be technical video rentals) show the process in detail.
http://smartflix.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=remington+700&x=14&y=9
I think I have a good handle on it now. The chamber is finished, but it is too long. So I'll have the local machine shop lathe 0.074 back behind the threads so I can use my 0.250 recoil lug. When I closed the bolt with the go guage and tightened the barrel the gap between the face of the receiver and the face of the barrel was 181. I would like the shop to cut back 0.075 just so I have a little to go when assymbled.
Originally posted by ReAX222
I think I have a good handle on it now. The chamber is finished, but it is too long. So I'll have the local machine shop lathe 0.074 back behind the threads so I can use my 0.250 recoil lug. When I closed the bolt with the go guage and tightened the barrel the gap between the face of the receiver and the face of the barrel was 181. I would like the shop to cut back 0.075 just so I have a little to go when assymbled. If the chamber is actually too long for the cartridge (as in seriously out of spec) it cannot be corrected by just setting the barrel shoulder back. A too long chamber will still be too long even if it sets closer to the bolt face.
Correcting this would mean machining the breech (face) forward to shorten the chamber either the exact amount nescessary or, more practical, enough that the chamber is again short chambered and can be re-reamed after installation. Machining the shoulders forward would be nescessary as well as the clearance between the bolt face and breech are altered when the breech face is machined forward.
If the chamber is only a very small amount too long you can probably get away with just setting the barrel forward a few thousandths (being carefull to maintain bolt face clearance) but accuracy would potentially suffer if you don't handload for your specific chamber (fireforming and then neck sizing only on your brass).
Thanks. I am checking it out and here's what I have figured. The bolt resting inside the recess on the barrel has Just a thousants or so gap between the barrel and the bolt lugs. With the go guage on the bolt, there is 0.050 gap between the barrel and the bolt lugs.
So with the bolt in a fixed position, I need to bring the barrel to 0.050 of the recoil lug. Or as I first did, install the go gauge and measure the gap between the face of the action to the shoulder on the barrel without the recoil lug. At that depth, I need to pull 0.074 to clear my recoil lug. Now I know that the recoil lugs are not stopping the go gauge from engaging the chamber.
Right, Basically I pretended I had an adjustable recoil lug and put it together with in spec to the go gauge. Now I just have to make my 0.250" recoil lug fit.:drowning:
What you are doing should work (I think, I do it differently but it can be approached from several directions). One thing to keep in mind is the 700's "three rings of steel" breech design. The protruding ring from the bolt face which fits inside of the recessed ring on the barrel breech face and is inside the front reciever ring. You need to keep the clearance between the protruding part of the bolt to around .005 (I think this is right, I didn't look it up in my books and don't do a 700 often enough to have it in mind) on the front and on the side between the barrel ring and outside of the bolt. If you forget to keep this dimension in mind you can be running the bolt into the barrel breech and not realizing it then trying to make the bolt close with the headspacing raqmer and gauge (which obviously won't work) which results in overcutting the chamber. The clearance is somewhat critical for brass flow and gas escape if you blow a case or seriously overpressure a cartridge.
BTW, the threaded shank of the barrel will stretch rearward when you torque the barrel to the receiver about a thousandth or so (more if you over torque it). Keep this in mind when you are setting the shoulders and face clearances. (Never try to correct a loose headspace by torquing the barrel tighter.) If you are taking the barrel off and on during the process, little aligned dimples on the receiver and barrel (bottom where it is not visible) will allow you to return the barrel to the exact position each time.
Probably one of purest discussion threads to come along in quite awhile - most refreshing. Allman your input is great; ReAX222 would like to see pics when done, including of course a target group from your pet load. ;)
Best of luck!
:patriot:
I think I understand post-partum depression now. I am very excited that I finally finish my first major gun project, but I am depressed that after 10 months of tinkering it's over.
As soon as I locate my upload cable, I'll post some finished pictures. I got the bolt to close on the go guage at 0.191" (recoil lug thickness) and not the no go gauge. A friend of mine has invited a gunsmith to eat with us next weekend, so I will let him look it over. I think I got it right anyhow.
On another plus, Ospho makes a great parkerizing medium. here's the msds http://www.ospho.com/images/MSDS2005.pdf I was able to pick it up from Ace hardware this morning. The magnese came from a battery, I wish I did the whole rifle as black as I got the recoil lug.
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
The discolourization on the barrel are just oils. With a solid coat of oil the finish is mostly uniform, or close enough.
I broke the barrel in this weekend. I am way out of practice with a scoped rifle, but I put 5 rounds touching at 40 yards. I don't think that's too bad for not firing a scoped gun in a year and a half. Forgot to say, that's with over the counter winchester super-x 150's.
Anyhow, I need to rebed the lug because it took some work to fit the new recoil lug. I can do the recoil lug very easily, but I thought it would be a good time to try pillar bedding. Any tips? I have read several online articles, but I don't understand it completely. Am I trying to make the action only contact the recoil lug surface and the pillars? Or do I epoxy the lugs into the stock and create a matched surface for the action to sit on the stock? I think I will get the scorehi kit, but I want to understand it before I start it.
I would suggestion requesting the hi-score dvd on pillars installation and glassing the action. Very easy and informational. btw: You want the action to bed in the stock/pillars and not just resting on the pillars.
fwiw: brownells sell a glass bedding kit along with midway or your local boating outfit has marine tex which would work and can be cheaper, but scorehi will see you everything at a decent price. You can also buy ferrules from both listed places and cut them to length. Reading the manuals and order the scorehi dvd and you will understand the process. It quite simple.
http://www.scorehi.com/main.htm
I wouldn't advise trying this without reading up on the process. Before I did mine I use some old stocks that I had cut up ( mausers ) and then bedded my action. The 700 would be very similar other than the non-intergrated recoil lug.
But the basic would be to prep the stock,prep the barrel, apply the pillars and bed them in with no tension and then after allowing them to semi-cure you would bed the action into the stock. Make sure you use enough of release compound and tape and make sure you don't glue the action into the stock by going above the center line of the action.
Pretty simple proccess and it's not as scary as soon as you do it. You can do the whole process over a weekend and expect about 3-7 days for the exopy to cure.
Good luck and read,read,read and go slow.
Also why don't you show us the final product when your done ;)
Thanks, one more question that I haven't completely understood about it. On the bottom of the stock, will the bolt engage the pillars alone or a certain thickness of the stock and then the pillars?
Does the DVD come with the kit, or do I just call/email them and ask for it? I had done the JB weld recoil lug process once before, and this seems simple enough.
Thanks again.
When I did mind I had the pillars almost flush with the wood of the stock at bottom. You want a solid anchor without any stress.
And as far as I know the DVD is not in the Kit from what I recall. I now just buy the supplies from the listed suppliers or my marine world and do it myself.
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