Stoeger Cougar

[thalo]

I consider the Beretta Cougar to be one of the finest handgun designs of the 20th century. I believe it came out in 1994. It represented a time in history when Beretta was out to surpass the venerable 92-96, which they did... and before their whole terrible polymer/running shoe/space-design movement.

Just a good, solid, metal semi-auto. Before cheap Polymer guns really took over. Great ergonomics, accuracy, and with clean sexy lines.

I was FLOORED when I heard they were discontinuing the model. I encouraged people to go out and buy up old Cougars while they were still available, considering the design a classic.

Now it comes out that the design has been moved to the Stoeger plant in Turkey, and is coming out as kind of an economy gun. Minus the Beretta logo. I've been checking around online, and the street price for the Stoeger Cougar 8000 9mm is roughly $425.

I have no idea if these things are exact clones of the original Cougar or not. My tendency is STILL to buy up the original Beretta models. I do not know if older Beretta factory Cougar mags will fit in the Stoegers. I don't know if Beretta Cougar grips will fit on the Stoegers.

I do find it interesting that, like Beretta the Stoeger uses the model F/type P beveled slide on the 9mm... but the unbeveled slide on the .40S&W. It's as if production picked up right where Beretta left off. But dropping the 8045.

I'm curious to hear what the Beretta faithful think of this. I mean, it's great to see the design back... but as a Turkish economy-grade gun?

It makes me all the more keen on buying up the older italian models. I think the price of those is going to skyrocket. I'm here ready to go three or more deep on Cougars in all calibers, because I don't really trust this whole strategic move by Beretta. Thoughts?

[ShipWreck]

I think if U are a fan of the gun, then its better to see this happen than to see it go away altogether. And now, U can get a really good price on it.

I had one of the 1st Cougars when they first came out. I ended up selling the gun, as it was a sub 4" barrel, and I tend to not shoot smaller guns as well (I need the longer sight radius).

But, never had an issue w/ the design itself. And, the gun always worked.

[theberettaman]

They are not exact "clones",they are Cougars that just don't happen to be made in Italy!! Same machines,same person signs the workers pay check.:rofl:

[thalo]

I suppose I'm suspicious of the retail price. Seems to be lower than simply moving the production to Turkey. And so I suspect inferior machining, internals, or materials choices is adding up to the economy-grade price.

I'd rather see a premium Cougar hit the market, not a budget gun. I think the design warrants it.

And so, being a fan of the gun, I think I'm going to ignore the Stoegers and concentrate on Italian made Cougars from before the discontinuance. Just for my own use and collection. I'm glad to see the gun in production, but that doesn't take the sting out of it being discontinued by the original manufacturer.

Discontinuing these was the absolute worst move Beretta has made. They threw in behind the terrible spacegun-running shoe designs, and now we're left with the markedly inferior PX4 Storm and the plastic replacement to the 92. Both of which are garbage as far as I'm concerned. Design nightmares. And I'm a longtime Beretta fan. I used to think they could do no wrong. Now, I've seen the marketing department destroy the trajectory of the handgun division. If you want a "real" Beretta nowadays, one that's still in production, you have to buy a 92 or 96, a cheetah, or a Tomcat. Those are really the only models worth having. I can stand to see the 92 or 96 series go. They had a good run, the Cougar should have replaced those. The Cheetah is still a superior design. If I were everybody, I'd start buying up those too. Before they go and try to replace it with a running shoe like the ridiculous and terrible 9000.

To me, the Cougar is it. The zenith of Beretta handguns, before they totally jumped the shark. Before they succumbed to the dysfunction, corner-cutting and quality problems that have infected the industry. It represents a design where it's clear they were THINKING about design, performance and ergonomics more than how to save money and con the customer base with polymer. But it was starting. The recoil spring guide, for example, I would have made out of steel, rather than plastic. That's the one corner-cutting part in the whole model. But so far it hasn't pooched the operational function. I do kick around the idea of replacing it with aftermarket, however. If they even exist.

I'd have to see a Stoeger Cougar up close to see how much of a clone these are to the original. Right now, I'm suspicious of them. And I'm not sure I want to use my money to support the completely boneheaded move of discontinuing the Cougar under the Beretta name.

[theberettaman]

I'm still not seeing the "clone" thing.Beretta ownes Stoeger.How can you clone your own product.It's kinda like the automotive industry.The GM plant in OKC made engines for Buick's(or oldmobile's,whatever) but Chevy mini-vans still rolled out the door everyday.
To each his though.

:)

[ShipWreck]

Originally posted by thalo
I suppose I'm suspicious of the retail price. Seems to be lower than simply moving the production to Turkey. And so I suspect inferior machining, internals, or materials choices is adding up to the economy-grade price.

I'd rather see a premium Cougar hit the market, not a budget gun. I think the design warrants it.

And so, being a fan of the gun, I think I'm going to ignore the Stoegers and concentrate on Italian made Cougars from before the discontinuance. Just for my own use and collection. I'm glad to see the gun in production, but that doesn't take the sting out of it being discontinued by the original manufacturer.

Discontinuing these was the absolute worst move Beretta has made. They threw in behind the terrible spacegun-running shoe designs, and now we're left with the markedly inferior PX4 Storm and the plastic replacement to the 92. Both of which are garbage as far as I'm concerned. Design nightmares. And I'm a longtime Beretta fan. I used to think they could do no wrong. Now, I've seen the marketing department destroy the trajectory of the handgun division. If you want a "real" Beretta nowadays, one that's still in production, you have to buy a 92 or 96, a cheetah, or a Tomcat. Those are really the only models worth having. I can stand to see the 92 or 96 series go. They had a good run, the Cougar should have replaced those. The Cheetah is still a superior design. If I were everybody, I'd start buying up those too. Before they go and try to replace it with a running shoe like the ridiculous and terrible 9000.

To me, the Cougar is it. The zenith of Beretta handguns, before they totally jumped the shark. Before they succumbed to the dysfunction, corner-cutting and quality problems that have infected the industry. It represents a design where it's clear they were THINKING about design, performance and ergonomics more than how to save money and con the customer base with polymer. But it was starting. The recoil spring guide, for example, I would have made out of steel, rather than plastic. That's the one corner-cutting part in the whole model. But so far it hasn't pooched the operational function. I do kick around the idea of replacing it with aftermarket, however. If they even exist.

I'd have to see a Stoeger Cougar up close to see how much of a clone these are to the original. Right now, I'm suspicious of them. And I'm not sure I want to use my money to support the completely boneheaded move of discontinuing the Cougar under the Beretta name.

U do know that the new 90-Two, the replacement to the 92FS is NOT a plastic gun, don't you?

As for the PX4, I don't like it either (I've shot one on 3 different occassions). But, I gotta say, many people do. It seems to be selling better than the Cougar ever did. So, time will tell.

[thalo]

U do know that the new 90-Two, the replacement to the 92FS is NOT a plastic gun, don't you?

I dunno man, looks like an awful lot of polymer on the frame. We've got that new grip system, the stupid accessory rail (--or rather rail cover--looks polymer to me... I see the seam)... looks like more plastic running shoe design to ME! Plastic is definitely encroaching on the alloy to a pretty significant degree. Enough for me to call it either a plastic gun, or a gun where all those plastic sensibilities are encroaching. Fugly.

Oh sweet mercy, I think the Px4 is a complete mess. I held one in my hand and almost threw up. I had a visceral reaction to how sucky it was. I know some people like it, that's not my point. Some people like GoGurt.

As for the clone thing, same deal. We all know how these things work. When you move a plant to a country with cheap labor, change (and dilute) the brand... you've taken the focus off of quality and put it onto economy. Read the language of the press release. It's taking a great design, and trying to scoop up the absolute low-end economy market.

As opposed to the original offering of the design, which was marketed as a premium handgun... which it was.

[ShipWreck]

The 90-Two has a rail cover that is polymer - but most people do not use it. And, the replacable grip is plastic, but the main frame is still allow.

I hope the eventually come out w/ a rubber grip, because I don't really care for the plastic front strap. Its too slippery. But, I have shot the gun. It shoots pretty nicely.

I actually won a 90-Two at the Beretta Range day. It took about a month to get it. Originally, I was gonna keep it, but I ended up selling it unfired because of the grip. I much prefer my P99.

[Yamadad]

Me, I'm going to reserve judgement on the gun. I would like to see one before owning one.

Firearms production being moved to Turkey could just be a way to reduce labor costs, which is the largest component of production costs. BUT, it could also be part of more cost cutting, which could include material quality. However, I doubt that, so that would leave tooling quality (wearing out and not being replaced) as another quality control factor. We'll see.

[RJ1670]

I bought a Stoeger Cougar 8000 and have run 200 rounds of WWB through it. Not one mishap except for one of the factory mags doesn't lock back the slide when empty occasionally. It is identical to the Beretta except for markings. If you want a Cougar don't hesitate to pick up a Stoeger. You won't be disappointed. And the best thing is, I picked it up brand new for $349.

[thalo]

brother RJ,
Do factory Beretta Cougar mags fit in the Stoeger? Because I'm such a Cougar freak, I've collected a ton of mags over the years.

I'd have to lay hands on the Stoeger to give it a chance. I know the Cougar inside out, and if there's the slightest whiff of corner cutting, or poor materials or machining, I'll know in five seconds.

The plan for me is to still buy up old Cougars with the Beretta markings. I'm thinking I'd like to expand my collection to all the variations, including the DAO models. My favorites however, are still the 8000F type P in 9mm with the redesigned slide... and the 8045F with the old slide. To me, those are the two standout models. If I see those factory new anywhere, I pick them up regardless of price.

--just saw the other thread with pictures, going to take a look at that now

[RJ1670]

I haven't picked up any extra mags yet but, the factory mags are marked Made in Italy. So, I'm assuming it's factory Beretta mags.:thumbsup: