Best way to strike to the throat? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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betyourlife
09-29-2006, 01:15
What is ultimately the best way to attack the throat? I have always believed that an open palm strike is a little unrealistic and too big to get into most thick necked peoples "area" but I am not so sure that there are any better alternatives.

You could do a regular fist strike and risk breaking your hand on their jaw.

You could do a middle knuckle strike and risk jambing your fingers.

Or???

Halojumper
09-29-2006, 14:13
You do a punch where just the two knuckles are folded (I don't remember what we call that).

A web hand strike

A ridge hand strike

A shuto

a couple of 165 gr Golden Sabers!

Gunlawyer
09-29-2006, 15:55
What is ultimately the best way to attack the throat?

I'd say buckshot, katana, machete, folding knife, baseball bat would all be great ways that immediately come to mind.

Empty hand? A good old fashioned fist should work well. But who knows, I never had to try it.

Anyone else?

Halojumper
09-29-2006, 16:03
Originally posted by Chris G Thomas
Empty hand? A good old fashioned fist should work well. But who knows, I never had to try it.



Sometimes a regular fist is impractical against us no-necks!

ArmedDefense
09-29-2006, 18:49
If you have to deal with a no-necks you can strike a bit lower. There is a spot that allows you to penetrate the skin and get to the trachea with one or two fingers. Rip it out, walk away and try to find peace!

Steel Talon
09-30-2006, 09:16
Originally posted by betyourlife
What is ultimately the best way to attack the throat? I have always believed that an open palm strike is a little unrealistic and too big to get into most thick necked peoples "area" but I am not so sure that there are any better alternatives.

You could do a regular fist strike and risk breaking your hand on their jaw.

You could do a middle knuckle strike and risk jambing your fingers.

Or???

Hello Bet....

It depends on how you set up the target for the strike left carotid, right carotid, or straight in. Either way once you expose the target making contact will drop your adversary.

Spear hand
Panther strike
Ridge Hand
Shuto
Empi (elbow)

Peace
Steel Talon:cool:

betyourlife
09-30-2006, 21:44
Originally posted by ArmedDefense
If you have to deal with a no-necks you can strike a bit lower. There is a spot that allows you to penetrate the skin and get to the trachea with one or two fingers. Rip it out, walk away and try to find peace!




:rofl: :thumbsup:

GlockViking
10-01-2006, 14:26
If you are looking to incapacitate a large(r) man, the sides of the neck are very "soft" targets...one of my instructors tapped me lightly in that area and your eyes will literally roll into the back of your head...

The sternum is also a very "soft" target...one decent shot there and most people will be DONE!!!

The radial nerve on top of the forearm muscle are also an attention-getter.

The human body is full of "soft" spots, so let the circumstances dictate the area of attack...don't get locked on to a target that may not avail itself to you...

ER_STL
10-04-2006, 11:40
Originally posted by GlockViking
If you are looking to incapacitate a large(r) man, the sides of the neck are very "soft" targets...one of my instructors tapped me lightly in that area and your eyes will literally roll into the back of your head...

That's called the brachial plexus (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bartleby.com/107/Images/large/image808.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus808.html&h=500&w=592&sz=145&hl=en&start=18&tbnid=Je-oXKMjw7zuLM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrachial%2Bplexus%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGIF,GGIF:2006-27,GGIF:en%26sa%3DX) and it's an excellent target to hit. Not everyone responds as dramatically to it though.

Mwinter
10-04-2006, 19:24
The half-knuckle-fist (fingers folded at the 2nd knuckle, presenting a flat '"blade" across the hand) is called a shinkan-ken.

A supported thumb (pretend you are squashing a coin between the bottom of your thumbpad and the inside of your index finger's middle joint, called yubi) is also a good way to get into the softer more exposed portion of the trachea.

Best way IMHO is to 'soften' with a shin kick, etc. then attack the neck/throat from the side or rear. Chokes, forearm blades, rips, etc. are almost always easier to finish from the side or rear of your opponent while they're holding their injured knee/shin/junk.

If you're striking the actual throat or spine, it's basically crossing over into lethal force. In that instance I'd be more likely to use a kubotan/pen or true weapon to get the job done quickly and more safely.

jsbcody
10-08-2006, 19:21
The best way to strike the throat;

Step #1. Left hand heel palm strike to his chin, forcing head backward and exposing throat.

Step #2. Right hand punch to throat. You can use a "normal" punch, Panther strike, spear hand, web hand, or even an elbow depending on distance (if you are in intermidate range or close range).

Reapply Step #1 and Step #2 as needed.
;)

BlackBelt
10-27-2006, 18:09
For a brachial stun, I like to use my forearm. For a trachea attack, I "C" clamp it with my thumb and 4 fingers.
This is, BTW, my absolute favorite street technique. Immediately after closing the gap, I try to get that throat. It's been so effective that I've had one well-known instructor ask me not to use it in his H2H seminars, because it didn't give anyone a chance to use the techniques he was teaching.
It's the equivalent of saying, "OK, dude, I've got the drop on you. How do you want to play this?" Guys know when you've got their throat or their testicles in your grip. It's usually quite disconcerting to them.
I'm not a fan of striking the throat unless it's absolutely neccessary for your survival. There are too many uncontrolable variables in play. When the time comes to strike the throat, whatever you throw will have the autonomic effect of them collapsing their head down over their throat and their hands going to the trachea to 'fix' it after you've struck it, and usually turning away from you.
Just my opinion...

B+Shooter
11-03-2006, 20:13
Originally posted by Mwinter
The half-knuckle-fist (fingers folded at the 2nd knuckle, presenting a flat '"blade" across the hand) is called a shinkan-ken.

Yeah, that thing.
I did this in a bar fight. I know, I know, not the most of austere circumstances. It went a long way in making him go fetal to protect himself, kind of a sensory overload thing. I see some "strike using Tiger pinky left hand crane jowl right fist" stuff. The key to a true confrontation is observing the body for Threats/Openings. I was fortunate that many people don't regard their throats as vulnerable as they are. Just be prepared to do what it takes.

Oh, does anyone know about this "hit with the webbing between the thumb and index finger" It seems that it would either spread the force out too wide (like a pro wrestling move) or hurt the hell out of your hand.

OldRonin
01-26-2007, 19:24
I'm pleased to join this forum. I just want to say that I'm a Glocker as well, but to my surprise found this forum, and compared to the martial arts forums on other sites, you all seem wiser, more mature, and respectful than anyplace else I've visited. I've trained for 30+ years now (Goju, kempo, aikijujitsu, kenjutsu, and some hybrid Indonesian styles). I've got a bunch of ranks and titles but gave them all up. Thus, my screen name. I have the good fortune of being semi-retired early and thus able to run a martial science research lab as my "hobby". I'm trained as a scientist, and got inspired by Lt. Col. David Grossman and many others who look at what really happens in combat and self defense situations. I have a loose group of people who have different styles, and we like to get some young folks and new CCW holders in and run them through scenarios under videotape. I teach scenario-based adrenalin stress conditioning, and empty hand strategies for CCW permit holders, among other things.

I'm writing some e-books, they'll be coming out in a series over the coming few years. I'm not gonna try and sell anything here, you guys can have free drafts, if you like. I hope some of you experienced guys will in turn send me feedback to make sure I don't publish anything that might lead a reader to make a fatal mistake following my advice. I don't claim to be a master of anything. I'm always learning.

BTW, I'm originally a mountain boy from the Rockies who started shooting at age 12. I'm now retired as a professor of anatomy and pathophysiology at a major university. I also have a PhD in psychology. I've done forensic work, among other things. Before that I worked 10 years in a trauma center, so I got to see lots of victims of every kind of thing you can imagine. For a time I worked as psychologist in a facility in the inner city public school for "emotionally disturbed", as in a prep school for violent criminals, pimps, and dope dealers. The kids pretty much had the run of the place because of all the laws that restricted what we could do to these so-called children. (Many were built like linbackers and sumo wrestlers. I'm 5' 9", 140#, but thanks to my years in the dojo, I'm "wiry", and I've got some moves and some guts. Budget cuts took away our LEO, leaving only two "bouncers" and me who had to control these guys, but by law couldn't leave a mark on them. They were free to pull knives, firearms, what have you. We still couldn't injure them, or even use pepper spray while getting them under control. I retired early, thank God, and can focus on research and writing on combative sciences, and raise my family. Enuff background.

Throat strikes:

I think it's a big difference to differentiate between the throat (as in the larynx, trachea, and the carotid triangle) from the neck (essentially the brachial plexus and the cervical spine and very base of the skull). My favorite non-lethal throat techniques are 1) single finger pushing down into the notch at the top of the sternum, with one foot behind his so you can collapse the knee; 2) A single fore-knuckle supported with you bent thumb, twisting/grinding in and down just beside the larynx. For control, I go with the previous posters suggestion of making a C-clamp grip around the larnynx, especially while pushing the guy back up against a wall. You keep your elbow out sideways to interrupt any strikes from that side, and your other hand up to slap away any strikes from the other side, though NOONE has ever tried to hit me once I clamped this vice grip on them.
It has a powerful psychological effect, switching the fight/flight reaction into an uncontrollable, instinctual submission response.
It's ended every fight I ever got into. You can reach around and grab a handful of hair if you want and pull his head back. Just watch your six, so a buddy doesn't come nail you, and watch his hands so he doesn't get a blade out... but they have all just submitted, no matter how aggressive they were. Then I reach around with my foot, tap them behind the knee, and guide them to kneeling on the floor. Then I switch to some kind of shoulder locking arm restraint, pushing their face to the floor. AMAZINGLY effective.

My alternate to that is once I have the C-clamp on, I use my other hand to do a sharp pop of a palm heel strike just above and behind the tip of their ear. It's a reliable quick KO, because the shock wave goes straight into their hind-brain, it's like pushing their "reboot" button. They drop like a limp sack of spuds. Doesn't leave a mark, either. (If you are carrying, then you can step back and draw your weapon if you need to, or get the hell out of there, depending on where you are.) They all wake up essentially unharmed, but quite pacified, at least for a while.

This has been long enough. If anyone cares to follow up on this post, I'll add in about brachial plexus stuns and stuff like that.
I'd love to hear if anyone has tried this and have it fail.

Thanks for bearing with this far too long introductory post.

gr81disp
01-26-2007, 19:33
Careful, there are freaks out there like me who, for some reason or another, don't feel certain pressure points. The brachial plexus and radial nerves in my arms simply don't cause me pain, all I feel is pressure. This was very disconcerting to my classmates in Defensive Tactics.

Edit: I do have to admit that I never received a full-power shot on my plexus (though I did on my arm) but the point was to be able to use it in close quarters with limited movement options.

Steel Talon
01-27-2007, 01:14
Hello OldRonin,

Good Post. Myself I stated my MA journey in 1963...I digress.

Anyhoo; Aside from creating an avenue of escape (self preservation) with a throat strike. The one thing that I would add, is the importance of quickly transitioning from the frontal attack to a rear attack/control.:)

Your point of targeting behind the ear is spot on, again much more accessable from the rear, Also another favorite target for a knuckle strike,Empi strike, back fist (spinning) or palm strike is to the temple it will restore peace quickly

Fu-Rin Ka-San
Peace,
Steel Talon:cool:

OldRonin
01-27-2007, 04:04
I totally agree... if a grab to the larynx does NOT instantly cause a submission, one should transition to follow-up, like grabbing the upper arm, pinning it briefly while I transition to a position behind, and just as I release the throat grab, uppercut palm heel to push the head back followed by a web of hand strike to throat. By now I'm behind him, probably collapsing his knee and striking other targets of opportunity or further unbalancing him. Pulling back on is forehead from behind while kicking in the back of the knee for example, as I'm leaving the situation. No sense hanging around for a slugfest.

Standing directly in front of an opponent who is NOT in a state of total submission is never where I want to spend any time.

Boring
02-14-2007, 13:13
The best way to hit a throat is: HARD.

The rest will take care of itself.

OldRonin
02-14-2007, 17:07
If you want to instantly, reliably stop a BG in his tracks, striking the throat HARD is a good move. I totally agree HARD, but I wouldn't say the rest takes care of itself. I would say instead... the rest is whatever you pick, and the pickings are free.

A good HARD throat strike paralyzes or "stuns" a guy on his feet, but they tend to keep standing, or bending over. But they are not down or out.
They are, however, temporarily totally helpless, and vulnerable to whatever you want to do next.

Combining the good HARD strike to the throat with running "through" the guy will put him down and put you quickly on your way to somewhere you'd rather be.

Check out this clip to see how good a throat shot can take a guy down if you combine it with footwork. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Uy59WK0bU

Yep, HARD is essential. A wimp shot to the throat will just get your face smashed in by the guy who is now REALLY pissed that you had the gall to hit him in the throat... so without the HARD, you've made a bad situation really bad, from TARFU to FUBAR...

Gonetodarkside
02-27-2007, 13:36
if were talkin about the trachea i have been taught two ways..


1, web of the hand between the thumb and pointer finger, i used it and it worked.

2, curl the fingers back till your fingerprints are touching the palm side of your knuckles and punch...


there are a whole lot of different ways to attack the carotid, from a simple punch to a clench.


i just realised this was on glocktalk, im excited now!


edited to add: i was thinkin about hand strikes and didnt include elbows...

i see someone posted about a knife hand strike, all i can say is ouch baby... very ouch...

Blitzer
02-27-2007, 15:03
Originally posted by betyourlife
What is ultimately the best way to attack the throat? I have always believed that an open palm strike is a little unrealistic and too big to get into most thick necked peoples "area" but I am not so sure that there are any better alternatives.

You could do a regular fist strike and risk breaking your hand on their jaw.

You could do a middle knuckle strike and risk jambing your fingers.

Or???

Planning on offing someone soon? ;)
A Phoenix-Eye Fist jabbed straight in or a knife hand chop applied from the side of the Adams apple will make short work of an aggressive opponent, a crushed wind pipe. Not breathing has a very negative effect on someones focus.

noway
03-03-2007, 17:21
A japenese Boshiken fist would be a good approached don't need alot of area too strike , for it to be effective. But seriously the throat is one good target but the bridge under the nose, punched to the ear, or an eye would be better objects also.

if you coming head on with your attacker the throat ( frontal view ) might not be as easily obtain.

Bowtie
03-04-2007, 00:03
Panther strike if its straight on or side step and use a ridge hand would be my choice.

capnjim01
03-05-2007, 11:33
lots of good information and feed back on this one. My personal opinion is that i would only use a strike to the throat to soften some one up for a take down or joint lock. I just feel there is to much chance of a deadly out come and then legal trouble. I prefer to strike with the web of hand or C clamp. Interesting side note I talked to a bouncer once and he advised his people to use the C clamp seems that after the BG can't breath the loose the desire to fight.

OldRonin
03-05-2007, 11:55
Putting a C clamp on the throat has never failed to take the fight out of anyone in my 30 years of experience. That said, I've never tried it on a totally enraged wild animal of a guy high on PCP (angel dust). Anyone out there haver personal experience using the C clamp grip on the throat in that kind of situation?

capnjim01
03-05-2007, 12:02
I haven't but I think as my bouncer friend said if they can't breath and I would think even on pcp or other drugs once the lungs can;t get air the body shuts down. I will ask some of my friends in the medical field if this makes sense

Steel Talon
03-05-2007, 19:03
Originally posted by OldRonin
Putting a C clamp on the throat has never failed to take the fight out of anyone in my 30 years of experience. That said, I've never tried it on a totally enraged wild animal of a guy high on PCP (angel dust). Anyone out there haver personal experience using the C clamp grip on the throat in that kind of situation?

Hello OR..

I wouldn't use it myself. I feel it leaves you far to "wide open" for a counter. Plus, I always want to transfer for rear control/cut down, and a rear naked choke is far more effectine than a "C" clamp hold.

But then again during a street confrontation I want to strike first and fast. Create an exit, take it and restore peace for myself and loved ones. Plus, depending on locale I'd probably be screaming during the confrontation I dont want to fight, I dont want to fight or something along those lines if needed. Can make the audience sympathetic, plus I dont have to worry (MUCH) about the club bouncers adjusting my attitude. Anyway I'm much to old to go clubbing anymore.

Myself, I dont want to hang around for his buddies to re-group and counter my ass with thier Doc Martins:) Plus, I have no need to control someone until the police arrive I want to be miles away.

Peace
Steel Talon:cool:

Steel Talon
03-05-2007, 19:08
Originally posted by capnjim01
I haven't but I think as my bouncer friend said if they can't breath and I would think even on pcp or other drugs once the lungs can;t get air the body shuts down. I will ask some of my friends in the medical field if this makes sense


Hello Cpnjim...
One thing to consider the C clamp is only as strong as the ring finger of the hand applying the pressure. And that is just one of many counters that can be quickly used to nullify the "C"..

Peace
Steel Talon:cool:

OldRonin
03-05-2007, 20:15
I wasn't intending to carry this thing on, but, it seems to keep going.

Let me try to clarify myself, then I'd like to sign off on this thread.

I would never consider any single technique as a complete method of "fighting". I use a rapid-fire combination where I am in constant transition of position to maintain myself in the safest spot while keeping the opponent off balance until he has hit the floor for good. For example, the C clamp could be combined with an off-center forward drive to unbalance the BG, drive his head into a wall, or hold his head still just long enough for me to get a knock-out shot to the sweet spot just above and behind the ear with a palm heel, followed by pulling him in whatever direction it would take to tip him over, probably with his face into my knee, always with the idea of having him out of comissions and on the ground in under two seconds.

The C-clamp is useful alone in situations where you want to establish dominance, yet you don't want to hit the guy or make a big show. It's something I used in my younger years, when I hadn't yet learned to de-escalate a loud mouth without engaging him physically. You can use a C clamp without hurting a person, if you have good control. In my foolish youth, I used it to stop 6 foot guys from picking on me. It shocked them, and they left me alone after that. I was 5 foot 5 and weighed 100#, and when a guy shoved me and challenged me to a fight, I would grasp is throat in a C clamp and push him against a locker, and ask him if he still wanted to fight. It always ended it. That's just my experience. This was not in a world of extreme violence-- we're talking small town stuff 30 years ago, where no on would ever consider murdering anyone.

Again, single techniques don't mean much by themselves.

Steel Talon
03-05-2007, 20:31
Hello OR..

Small town here also, My high school graduating class was 18 :)

Peace
ST~:cool:

capnjim01
03-06-2007, 09:12
Originally posted by Steel Talon
Hello Cpnjim...
One thing to consider the C clamp is only as strong as the ring finger of the hand applying the pressure. And that is just one of many counters that can be quickly used to nullify the "C"..

Peace
Steel Talon:cool: I would never rely on this only either. This is just what a bouncer said he uses. I would use this while I transfered to another technique depending on what was offered. You're never to old to go clubbing. Went out with some of my wife's friends this past weekend, they'll all ems, leo, or support teams, I was the oldest one the group and it was ok. It will probably hold me for six months or so. If we ever get to Az. I let you know and maybe we'll share some cigars.

Steel Talon
03-06-2007, 19:10
Originally posted by capnjim01
I would never rely on this only either. This is just what a bouncer said he uses. I would use this while I transfered to another technique depending on what was offered. You're never to old to go clubbing. Went out with some of my wife's friends this past weekend, they'll all ems, leo, or support teams, I was the oldest one the group and it was ok. It will probably hold me for six months or so. If we ever get to Az. I let you know and maybe we'll share some cigars.

Hello Cpn...

I hear ya.:) yes of course Anytime bro. I'm always up for a good cigar, good port/congac/beer, and good conversation. Just let me know.

No doubt, that at times the C works for bouncers, especially if he is in the 400pound range and is indowed with warclubs instead of fists.:)

Peace
Steel Talon:cool: