rifle for 3-gun and general purpose

[mouser]

I want to add a rifle to my "arsenal", and want it for multiple purposes: 3-gun competition, shooting fun, and (just in case) SHTF.
So far, I've been mulling over: AK47, SKS, Mini-14, AR.
What does the GT brain trust offer? :)

[another okie]

Buy one of each!

If three gun is included in your description, get an AR.

A 20 inch barrel AR, with a flat top so you can put optics on it, will do just about anything you need a rifle to do except take big game.

Well-made ARs are more reliable than mini-14s and have less recoil than larger caliber rifles. They're a lot of fun to shoot. They do get as dirty as a pig looking for truffles.

[mouser]

LOL, if I buy one of each, my wife will beat me to death with them!! :rofl:

Maybe the AR is the way to go...
Thanks!

[Bren]

The AR is the only real choice out of those - it can be easily user-adapted to any use by changing out readily available parts, so it can be anything from a pistol (legality notwithstanding) to a 600-1,000 yard competitive rifle. None of your other choices is in the same league at all.

[rhino465]

If potential defensive use is on your list (which I assume that's what you mean by "SHTF"), then you might want to consider configuring your gun to meet those needs, then just shoot it in the gun games for fun.

In that case, you'll want to start with a 16 inch, skinny barrel (or M4-style), with a chrome lined bore and chamber. You'll also want a flat top, as it's the most versatile.

Everything else you can swap back and forth and change depending on your needs for the day.

Actually, you can do that with your barrel/upper receiver too. ARs are "modular," so you could have one upper built for defensive use, and one for playing games (with an 18-20 inch barrel, full length gas system, etc).

[mouser]

I have been noticing that the AR is modular, and that is a very attractive feature. On the other hand, the AK or SKS is much cheaper, has ammo with a bit more "oomph", and truthfully, I just want one of them! But, I can't justify several at this point, I certainly wouldn't have the time to give more than one any range time, so I'm trying to fit all of the items together.
OK, I'm convinced, AR (M4-style, 16") it shall be. That was one of the alternatives I had been considering.
Thanks for the responses!!

[AKA Glockboy]

in keeping with the "modular" theme , 7.62 uppers are available for the AR . reliable magazines are hard to find but c products is working on that now.

as far a 3/multi gunning goes, some of the stages will go over 30rnds. the AR is tops in availability of afforadable QUALITY magazines and the ease of magazine changes on the fly.

AKA

[mouser]

good point on the mags, thanks.
Are the 7.62 uppers as reliable as the 5.56/.223?

[another okie]

The reason I said a 20" AR is that in some competitions you have to make a power factor, which is usually bullet weight times feet per second, and for rifles one level you have to meet is often 165,000. A 50 grain bullet at 3,000 fps is 165. A 16" AR will sometimes not meet this requirement, especially if it's really a 14.5 " with a muzzle break or flash suppressor permanently attached.

Even a 20" AR is still a very short and handy rifle by traditional standards. But a 16" AR sure looks cooler, and it would be a little easier to maneuver in tight places.

[jobob]

Reasons for an AR over AK: more accurate, easier/faster mag changes, more ergonomic (although that can be rather subjective), with flat top much greater flexibility in sighting equipment, flatter shooting for those pesky long shots, bolt stays open after last shot (AKs don't), when you buy one you're buying American (usually), you want one.

Reasons for an AK over AR: they're way cool and fun to shoot, they are an extremely rugged and reliable design, with the right ammo they are powerful enough for deer hunting, you want one.

The last reason given is the best reason for each.

[Bren]

Originally posted by jobob
Reasons for an AK over AR: they're way cool and fun to shoot, they are an extremely rugged and reliable design, with the right ammo they are powerful enough for deer hunting, you want one.

The AR is great for deer hunting as well. I took my 16" Double Star expedition gun deer hunting with 55 gr. softpoints - 2 shots, 2 deer.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by jobob
Reasons for an AR over AK: more accurate, easier/faster mag changes, more ergonomic (although that can be rather subjective), with flat top much greater flexibility in sighting equipment, flatter shooting for those pesky long shots, bolt stays open after last shot (AKs don't), when you buy one you're buying American (usually), you want one.

Reasons for an AK over AR: they're way cool and fun to shoot, they are an extremely rugged and reliable design, with the right ammo they are powerful enough for deer hunting, you want one.

The last reason given is the best reason for each.

The 223 is also fine for deer hunting with the right ammo. IN fact there is little reason to own a 7.62 x39 AR unless your behind enemy lines. The 223 is a better combat round. AK's are pretty useless. I have owned 6 and never had one that could shoot better than minute of basket ball at 100 yards. The sights are terrible as is the safety. Their good as a cheap plinker but I would not use one for serious use if an AR was available to me.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

For threegun and for general purpose I would get a nice 16 inch M4 type AR. Then put 1.25 x 4 power Trijicon Accupoint. As well as a set up back up iron sights and of course a good weapon light. The light is not needed for three gun but it is for home defense. The reason for the scope over a good cqb sight like the Eotech or Aimpoint is its more versatile for 3 gun where ranges can go long. This is my AR10 carbine.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/IM000784.jpg

Here is my patrol rifle. Its set up for road work and not three gun.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/IM000864.jpg

[mouser]

great responses, all...
These tidbits were exactly the type of info I was looking for.
AR it is - I'll just add an AK later on for "funsies".
Thanks again!

[rhino465]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
For threegun and for general purpose I would get a nice 16 inch M4 type AR. Then put 1.25 x 4 power Trijicon Accupoint. As well as a set up back up iron sights and of course a good weapon light. The light is not needed for three gun but it is for home defense. The reason for the scope over a good cqb sight like the Eotech or Aimpoint is its more versatile for 3 gun where ranges can go long.

The Accupoints are indeed sweet, sweet optics. For general purposes, you can't beat a low power variable scope. I recall a few years ago when I first started posting messages on AR15.com. Someone asked for opinions on the best general purpose optic for an AR, and I said, "low power variable." THEY ROASTED ME ALIVE! All the tactibillies and uber k00l kIDz would only accept an ACOG or an Aimpoint, because that's all their leaders had blessed with their approval.

Move down the line a few years ... the USMC and other military "invent" the use of low power variables on their rifles, and now it's "the" thing to have among the tactibillies, especially the very nice but way overpriced Schmidt & Bender short dot.

I'm not saying I had an original idea. My group of 3-gun shooting buddies started using low powered variable Leupolds back in the mid 1990s when we realized they worked better and were lighter than a higher power variable, plus a red dot for close range stuff. I've had a Leupold Vari-X II 1-4X20mm on my Colt since at least 1997 or whenever it was I got it (my first rifle).

Right now I just shoot my house gun with an EOTech in 3-gun matches because none of them ever have a shot past 100 yards, and most of the shots are from contact distance to 25-30 yards. That's all because of limitations of the size of the shooting ranges. Hopefully I'll be able to establish a 3-gun presence at my home club soon, and we use up to 240 yards there ... the Leupold will see service once again.

Those are sweet guns, by the way. The .30 cal looks like a great idea for your locale, especially since you have to worry about large critters that might eat you!

[jobob]

It's hard for me to accept that a .22 caliber weapon is suitable for deer. I grew up reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Kieth. But, I know lots of people who know what ther're talking about who say it works great with the right ammo, so I won't poo-poo on Alaskapopo! I think I'll probably stick with my .308 Rem. M7 for hunting, though.

The low power variable is absolutely the way to go in a rifle for 3 gun. Also great for hunting. Most hunters are WAY over-scoped. One thing you might want to consider is a scope that has a true 1x for the low end. With a true 1x the scope is extremely fast on the close targets. I've seen shooters fail to engage a close target because it didn't appear in the field of their 2x scope as they were shooting a series of targets. One scope I'm using, and I like it so well I now have 4 of them, is the 1-3x Weaver. Only costs $150. And it's a true 1x at the low end. Two of the top 3-gun shooters around, Shawn Carlock and Carl Carbon, turned me on to it. There are more expensive scopes, with marginally better optics, but for the money you can't beat it.

That 1.25-4x Trijicon would also be a good choice. Trijicon products are excellent quality. I haven't priced that scope, though. I don't know if the fact that it isn't quite a true 1x would be much of a disadvantage. Also, having an extra x on the upper end helps on those 300 yd.+ plates. But usually, the majority of the targets are under 100, and that's where the 1x shines.;)

[Bren]

Originally posted by jobob
It's hard for me to accept that a .22 caliber weapon is suitable for deer. I grew up reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Kieth. But, I know lots of people who know what ther're talking about who say it works great with the right ammo, so I won't poo-poo on Alaskapopo! I think I'll probably stick with my .308 Rem. M7 for hunting, though.

Try it. I didn't get a heart shot on either deer - one shot once through the lungs ran about 50-75 yards; the other shot through the liver dropped on the spot - when I took the liver out it was nothing but a thin ring with shreds in the middle. I would never use a .223 hollow point to hunt, but with a soft-point it's the velocity of the round that causes the damage.

[rhino465]

If you venture to various forums at www.ar15.com, you'll see a lot of accounts of people getting excellent results with .223 and 5.56x45mm on deer and even good sized feral pigs. At least one guy has harvested several pigs with M913-spec ball, and it performs admirably (i.e. it yaws in the tissue, fragments, and tears a really big hole as it's passing through).

[rhino465]

Originally posted by Bren
Try it. I didn't get a heart shot on either deer - one shot once through the lungs ran about 50-75 yards; the other shot through the liver dropped on the spot - when I took the liver out it was nothing but a thin ring with shreds in the middle. I would never use a .223 hollow point to hunt, but with a soft-point it's the velocity of the round that causes the damage.

Were you able to recover your bullets to see if they expanded or the pieces if it fragmented?

Expanding hollow points are probably not a great idea because you won't get sufficient pentration. Open tipped match bullets (i.e. non-expanding hollow points), on the other hand, should do well as they fragment explosively at lower speeds than will ball or soft points.

[Bren]

Originally posted by rhino465
Were you able to recover your bullets to see if they expanded or the pieces if it fragmented?

Expanding hollow points are probably not a great idea because you won't get sufficient pentration. Open tipped match bullets (i.e. non-expanding hollow points), on the other hand, should do well as they fragment explosively at lower speeds than will ball or soft points.

Both exited, so I didn't get them back. IMO, FMJ's would have done just as well. With .223 it's velocity that counts. The problem with .223 hollow points is that they tend to fragment into very small pieces. If they didn't fragment, I have no doubt they would go out the other side of the deer and work fine, but fragmenting into tiny pieces isn't going to put one down.

[jobob]

I've been thinking of trying my carbine on deer. But I still love my .308. It's lighter than either of my ARs, except for my wife's Carbine 15 (4 lb.). I've never shot a deer or antelope through the lungs with a.243, .270 or .308 (the three I have must hunting experience with) that went 50 yards. Most go down in their tracks. BTW, the .270 has all the velocity of the .223, with 70 - 75 grains more bullet.

That said, a friend has shot several deer and a black bear with a .223 with good results. I talked to a guy last year who said he shot a 5 pt. bull elk with one. To me, that's a bit of a stretch, and even unsportsman-like. I owe it to the animal to make the kill as quick and painless as possible. Hunting large game like elk with a minor caliber is just a stunt. How would the .223 perform on deer if the shot is other than broadside? What about a quartering shot from the rear on a running animal where you can't place the shot as accurately? Does any .223 ammo have the penetration to go through the paunch into the lungs? I'm thinking that the Federal loads with bonded bullets would be good, but I think they're only sold to law enforcement agencies. I have a bunch of Federal 55 gr. soft point. I don't know, I may try to punch a whitetail with it. Or, I may look for some of the Winchester 64 gr. soft point, which has a great reputation and should work very well. I do really enjoy shooting my AR carbine, and at least I'd have quick follow up shots.

Or I could carry my AK with soft points. Although what Alaskapopo says about the AK is true to some degree, I think he overstates the point. I know people who have been shot at by AKs, and they don't consider it nearly useless. In fact, a friend who was in 'Nam when the M16 was first issued loves AKs and hates ARs. He still attributes all the problems he saw with the early M16s to the modern ones. He's wrong, but there is no convincing him of it when he saw many Marines die with jammed up M16s in their hands. My cheap AK is absolutely a hoot to shoot. Yeah, it gets "minute of basketball" accuracy, but I still enjoy it. It's a very workmanlike gun. Looks like it was made in high school shop class, but it goes bang every time. The trigger is so long and heavy (like a revolver) that I don't think you need to carry it with the safety engaged, which negates that criticism. Yep, the issue sights are just awfull. I replaced the front sight with the X-S tritium sight, and the rear with a Williams peep. Those changes made it eminently more shootable. And if you need a down and dirty fighting gun, the AK is it. The gun itself is a pretty formidable hand to hand weapon with all the hard and sharp edges on it and the big hard magazine sticking out there. You can drop it in the muck or use it as a club, pick it up and shoot it. The AR is a much more refined weapon and I love it, but I'm not sure it can take the abuse that the AK can.

That all said, I'm still an AR guy. They are just great weapons. Very versatile, modular, customizeable, accurate. THE rifle for 3-gun. But I still haven't decided to hunt deer with one. I better decide, though, with only 3 weeks left in the Idaho season.

[rhino465]

I understand the reticence to harvest whitetails with .223 or 5.56x45mm, especially if you have a larger caliber available that will do the job more efficiently. It's a moot point for people where I live, though, as centerfire rifle rounds are not allowed for deer in Indiana unless fired from a handgun.

Pigs are another story. I've never shot one, but from first hand accounts I've read, it seems like the AR and the feral hog (excluding monsters like "Hogzilla," of course) are a good match.

And of course, there are a lot of coyotes that need killing, and an AR is ideal for that duty. I hope to do some of that this year for the first time. I'll be using my 16" Colt HBAR with a Leupold 1-4X20mm and Black Hills 68gr OTM. My friend who has killed many over the years always used the 68gr with good results.

[jobob]

Yeah, I hear you. I grew up in Indiana, and still have relatives there. Shotguns were required for deer even back then, but there were precious few deer. I did find a river bottom that had a pretty good deer population, and I tried, but I didn't shoot one. I never heard of coyotes, but there were foxes. Things have certainly changed.

[rhino465]

Originally posted by jobob
Yeah, I hear you. I grew up in Indiana, and still have relatives there. Shotguns were required for deer even back then, but there were precious few deer. I did find a river bottom that had a pretty good deer population, and I tried, but I didn't shoot one. I never heard of coyotes, but there were foxes. Things have certainly changed.

Changed, indeed! Whitetails have reached critical populations throughout the state, so this year there is no statewide limit on antleress deer. The counties still have some restrictions, but many of them are allowing eight additional antlerless deer in addition to the standard limits we had in the past. The number of deer/vehicle altercations keeps going up, so that's obvious we have too many. Most of the state parks have controlled hunts each year too where if you get a spot (by lottery), you can pretty much harvest as many as you can find.

Coyotes are also rampant, especially in certain counties. I suspect that many of them are dog-coyote hybrids, but they still need to be controlled.

Foxes, by contrast, have become quite rare. One of my shooting clubs is actually home to at least one family of red foxes, and they've become something of a club mascot. The club president feeds them some pretty high end dog food!

We also have booming populations of certain birds of prey as well. When I was a kid, I never saw any kind of hawk, but now you can't go outside without seeing a redtail hawk (they were reintroduced, I think), plus probably a few other species. We even have quite a few bald eagles in some areas (like along the Wabash River).

Oops! Topic drift to the max!

Uh ... I just put a new light on my house gun, which as been my 3-gun rifle for the last year or so. I had one of the original TacStar weapon lights on it for several years, but I found a good deal on a Pelican M3 9V (three CR123A cells) and now I can pretty much give someone a suntan with a little touch on the tape switch. I have a Viking Tactics mount on the way, so once I move the M3 to it, I'll probably use my existing rings to put a Pelican M6 (a 6V, two CR123A cell) on it for a backup.

Obviously I don't need either for 3-gun (unless I get to shoot a stage inside a darkhouse or a night shoot), but since it's also a general purpose gun, I like to be prepared for emergencies. Redundancy can be a good thing, especially when it comes to illumination.

[rhino465]

Here is my house gun that I've been using for 3-gun matches lately (and pretty much everything else), so it's about as general purpose as you can get.

It's a Bushmaster "AK Shorty" with:

CAA telescoping stock w/ spare mag carrier
EOTech on a Bennie Cooley adjustable gooseneck mount
Pelican M3 (9V) primary light with remote pressure switch in a Viking Tactics mount
Pelican M6 backup light mounted with a one inch scope ring
(both lights are hanging from a piece of picatinny rail bolted to the handguard)

[rhino465]

And the other side:

[Nick Weidhaas]

Highly recommend JP Rifles www.jprifles.com for an AR (either defensive or game gun). Their complete rifles can cause a little sticker shock, but you can cut he price by using your own lower and their upper and trigger. They offer 16" chrome lined carbines, 16" match mid-lenght, 18" and 20" uppers. I run one of their 20" uppers on a DPMS lower with JP trigger and it rocks. Real accurate and 100% reliable. Best AR I've ever owned and I've owned a few. Nick-