What do you think about the 2007 S&W IDPA Winter Championship

[cigna63]

I wondered what others think about the new format for the S&W Winter Championship match?

I've attended the match the past three years and found it to be one of the best matches I've ever attended. It was 10 incredable stages in an all day format. This year they've cut back to 8 stages in a 1/2 day format in order to get more shooters thru, they've also raised the price of the match.

I personally am not thrilled with the changes, I think the match was fine the way it was and cannot justify spending more money to attend the match which now consists of less shooting. I'm sorry that they thought it was more important to have more shooters attend than to keep the 10 stages and all day format. If you look at their match information letter ( 2007 S&W Winter Championship (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/WC07EntryLetter.pdf) )you'll see that on Saturday the match will be an all day format. Is this to accommodate the super squads which typically shoot on Saturday?

I'd like to hear what others who have attended the match in the past think about the changes.

[Steve Koski]

Response 1) I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!

Response 2) I have no response to that.

[DGV]

Why cant they have a TRUE first come first serve match registration. What nonsense this super squad BS is. Am I the only person who feels this way?

[Joe D]

I too think the Super Squad is a bunch of crock. IPSC does the same thing. Let them shoot with the rest of us "commoners".

[Carlitos]

Originally posted by Joe D
I too think the Super Squad is a bunch of crock. IPSC does the same thing. Let them shoot with the rest of us "commoners".

There are a number of important reasons for the super squad. Most important is TV/media coverage. Can't grow the sport w/o exposure. That's great that you shoot, but I don't want to see YOU on cable, I want to see Miculek, Strader, Sevigny, Jarret, Langdon, Warren etc. shoot. Can't expect the film crew to sit around watching a bunch of "also-rans" shoot while they are waiting for the top dogs to come through one by one. Besides, the super squad all know each other and they want to shoot together. And, other than the poor shooter stuck shooting 1st on the super squad, how are the other shooters on that squad going to learn how to shoot the stages w/o watching the other top competitors? Also, the head-to-head competition on that squad would not be the same if they just shot the match and had to wait for the scores to be posted; those guys need to know how conservative/out-for-glory they need to be to WIN. Its still a competition and the super squad may well be there for very different reasons than joe-average shooter. Just enjoy the match for what it is and hope that the sport grows.

[cigna63]

I don't have a problem with "Super Squads", I think you are right that for media coverage and such they should be squaded together.

What I have a problem with is that for us "normal" people who enter this match it will be a 1/2 day format, yet for the super squads it will be a full day format to shoot the same stages.

Is the format change in order to get more "normal" shooters pushed through this match so that more money can be made on the match?

What this means for those of us who fund our own travel and match expenses is we'll be shoved through in a 1/2 day whereas the sponsored shooters get a whole day to shoot and enjoy the match.

In my opinion they should have left the match as a full day 10 stage event.

[2cats]

I've had some less than optimal experiences getting into the match over the years. But I will guess that they are well intentioned here, and are merely trying to accomodate more shooters, for the sake of more shooters, not their money. I'm pretty sure they've always filled up fast and have had to turn a lot of people away. And it is always an excellent match.

And I'm all for people who want to shoot together to be on the same squad. But since the super squads don't have real jobs, they ought to be able to shoot on Thursday. People who work for a living should have access to Saturday.

And, other than the poor shooter stuck shooting 1st on the super squad, how are the other shooters on that squad going to learn how to shoot the stages w/o watching the other top competitors?

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. They're professional shooters, and they shouldn't need to watch one another in order to come up with the goods. And if they're all shooting together, then I never get to benefit and learn by shooting with one of them (nice if it were true, but I squadded with Jarrett one year. Didn't learn all that much, and he actually played with my head on one stage. Never thanked him for that.)

Also, the head-to-head competition on that squad would not be the same if they just shot the match and had to wait for the scores to be posted; those guys need to know how conservative/out-for-glory they need to be to WIN.

I don't think they need one another to work themselves into a lather to improve their performance. I think at least some of them would say that they ought to shoot exactly the same score if they shot by themselves with no one watching. So while I'm not against people squadding together, I guess I don't see most of your particular arguments in favor of it.

P.S. And I think it is very, very wrong and unfair to give some shooters twice as much time to shoot the match. That's probably my biggest problem with that arrangement.

[Steve Koski]

2c,

I also find Carlitos' super squad arguments fairly weak.

Koski

[dolhasso]

Interesting ideas in this thread. As an "almost" professional shooter who was second overall at last years S&W, here is my perspective.

1. Shooting the entire match in a 1/2 day format is an advantage. You are on the range for less time, on your feet less, have to tape less, and are less tired when you finish.

2. Placing those who have the ability to win the match in the same squad(s) is almost a requirement if a match is looking for TV coverage. The producers want footage of the shooters who place at the top and they cannot follow every squad for 3 days. Last year I was not on the super squad and even though I placed 2nd overall, there was no footage of me shooting the match available.

3. Placing all the top shooters together in the same squad helps eliminate any advantage (whether perceived or real) being awarded to a given shooter.

4. MANY of the super squad members have regular jobs, many outside of the shooting industry, where vacation days are just as rare as the rest of the world.

-David Olhasso

[Hozer]

Most all of the guys that shoot on the "Super Squad" are friends and they shoot together often.

If they request to be squadded together, why should they be any different than you? They paid their match fee just like you.

What if you signed up for a major match and were told you could not shoot with your friends?

[Glock2234]

I can understand someone feeling slighted by the signup process, but my friends who are going, are shooting together. If I were going, I would want the option of shooting with my friends.

Given the choice of taking a whole day to shoot 10 stages and a half day to shoot 8 stages, I'll take 8 every time. Don't get me started on the matches that take two days to shoot a one-day match. You will note that the Saturday squads are larger than the other days.

I have shot stages with Sevigny, Warren, Langdon, Harrington, and spent a day with Taran Butler shooting on an assigned squad. Those guys have money on the line as far as exposure and sponsorship. If I were at their level, I would rather shoot with the competition, than shoot with whoever shows up. At my level, I would rather shoot with the top shooters than whoever shows up. My reason is simple. They paste targets, are ready to shoot when called, don’t waste time, and often, openly discuss the best way to shoot a stage. The difference is that, Monday my employer isn’t going to ask how their investment paid off. Theirs will.

If shooting competitions are ever going to get any decent coverage in the media, it is going to have to be more media friendly. That involves creating a time when the media can expect to get the images and produce the story. Julie Goloski has done a good job, in my opinion, of making the match better for everyone. Oh, except the guy who really wants to shoot with Sevigny. I would suggest that person take a class from Sevigny.

My friends and family are cool with me spending a day or a weekend shooting, as long as they don’t have to go and spend all the time it takes.

The top level shooters often ask to shoot major matches with the SOs, in order that they can shoot more than one major match in a weekend. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. Don’t take it personally, its just business.

[2cats]

I'm not getting how the half day 8 stage shooter is going to have less taping to do. Aren't there an equal number of holes per shooter, and an equal number of shooters per hole to do the taping?

Maybe there are some advantages to the half day shoot. But I've been rushed through a stage in the old format, and basically told to shut my yap and shoot when I was asking the SO some straightforward questions about the stage. I don't see that getting better in a compressed format. I guess I'm just a little stuck on the "separate but equal is inherently unequal" aspect of having some shooter's experiences distinctly different from others.

Sure, not all the best shooter's lack real jobs, but a lot of them do. Pretty much all the schlubs there to have a good time work Monday through Friday.

Like I said, they're always trying real hard to make it work. It can't be perfect for everyone.

[Singlestack Wonder]

The "Super Squad" concept is against IDPA principles. It perpetuates the "Elitist" concept that exisits in USPSA. Granted, those guys are phenominal competitors and are very skilled. However, 95% of IDPA shooters are there to compete against themselves and most importantly, to have a good time. IDPA's refusal to not allow the elitist mentality to form by not allowing "Super Squads" and prize tables based on finish, has pushed IDPA far beyond USPSA in regards to membership and maintaining an atmosphere where everyone goes home with the reward of having a lot of fun with a bunch of like minded folks (no "Shooting Divas").

:)

[Hozer]

Originally posted by rmills
[B]The "Super Squad" concept is against IDPA principles. So is shooting with your friends against IDPA Principles? Please show me where I can find that a principle of IDPA does not allow that?

Using your rationale, I certainly hope you never ever shoot with your friends.

I couldnt give a crap about prize tables and either could anyone on top of the USPSA heap. You think a $1500 gun is going to pay for their time of going to a big match or the ammo to burned to get to that point?

The Area 1 USPSA match has blown off the prize table to make the match fee more affordable. It *still* sells out and the Pro shooters *still* show up.

IPSC/USPSA isnt about prizes.

This thread originally had absolutely nothing to do with prize tables and it didnt start out as a USPSA bash.

[Singlestack Wonder]

It *still* sells out and the Pro shooters *still* show up.

Probably because they are paid to by their sponsers. At the IDPA Nationals, shooters are squaded on a first come/first serve. The pro shooters get squadded with average joes such as myself. It's an opportunity to get to see them shoot and to have some comraderie with the "pros" that one may not otherwise get. They have to shoot like the rest of us, not knowing how they stand until the results are posted.

[cigna63]

This thread originally had absolutely nothing to do with prize tables and it didnt start out as a USPSA bash

You are sooo right! I started this thread to see if anyone who had attended the match in the past felt the same as I did about the changes. This is the 10th anniversery of this match and I thought they would have made it bigger and better, but instead they decided to make it so that they can allow more shooters to enter. Not that having more shooters is a bad thing, but at the expense of the the quality of the match it may be.

I just can't justify the travel and expense involved in order to shoot a half-day match with less stages than the past and was wondering if anyone else felt the same way.

As far as "Super Squads" I understand why and agree with having them shoot together. The only reason they were mentioned at the start of this thread is that they have a full-day format to shoot the match and everyone else has a half-day format.

[Trebuchet]

The status quo has changed. Adapt and move on. You have the right, and the ability to not go to the match if you are that peeved. (you will make it easier for me to get in:thumbsup: )

I recommend the following book.
http://www.appliedbook.com/books/archives/Who%20moved%20my%20cheese.jpg

[2cats]

Don't dump that tea in the harbor!!

Keep paying those taxes!!

[Flexmoney]

Originally posted by rmills
The "Super Squad" concept is against IDPA principles. It perpetuates the "Elitist" concept that exisits in USPSA. Granted, those guys are phenominal competitors and are very skilled. However, 95% of IDPA shooters are there to compete against themselves and most importantly, to have a good time. IDPA's refusal to not allow the elitist mentality to form by not allowing "Super Squads" and prize tables based on finish, has pushed IDPA far beyond USPSA in regards to membership and maintaining an atmosphere where everyone goes home with the reward of having a lot of fun with a bunch of like minded folks (no "Shooting Divas").

:)

:laughabove:
What a load of crap.
(sorry for the thread drift...but, jeez...)

[Glock2234]

What a load of crap.

On the Enos forum, this would be the point where you would close the thread without comment.

I guess you don't have that responsibility here.

But thanks for stopping by.

[Speedrock]

"But I've been rushed through a stage in the old format, and basically told to shut my yap and shoot when I was asking the SO some straightforward questions about the stage."

Why does this remind of other IDPA Sanctioned Matchs?

Certain SO's do this, then have the time to repetively say "if ya' do this... I'm gonna get ya' for 3 seconds..."

18 round Stage, a ton of props, sequential "traps", yet never so much as one Stage diagram &/or write-up posted or available? {Not referring to the S&W...}

[Singlestack Wonder]

:thumbsup:

[Singlestack Wonder]

"But I've been rushed through a stage in the old format, and basically told to shut my yap and shoot when I was asking the SO some straightforward questions about the stage."

We you asking the questions after you were called to the line and asked to LAMR or after the LAMR? In IDPA, competitors are expected to be able to shoot on demand. All questions should be asked during the stage briefing.

At our club, if your name is called and one comes to the line and starts asking a lot of questions or takes too much time after the LAMR command to get ready, they are asked to unload and go to the back of the line as they are not ready to shoot.

[Flexmoney]

Originally posted by Glock2234
But thanks for stopping by.

Stopping by? Heck, I've been here for over five and a half year. I think I've contributed over 1,500 posts here on GT. And...yep...I sometimes have a few opinions too. :fred:


Originally posted by rmills
Fortunately Flex, on this forum the moderators don't feel that USPSA is the only sport out there...


There you go, with your usual rhetoric. I can't believe you are attempting to paint me as "USPSA only". :animlol:

I shoot just about everything...USPSA, IDPA, NRA Action Pistol, non-sanctioned matches, shotgun, 3-gun...whatever. I try to bring people out to shoot competition...no matter what the format.

I run a monthly Steel Challenge match. I've been the Match Director for a couple of Level III major matches, as well as working numerous other major level matches. I've competed in numerous major matches, including Section, Area and National matches.

I was likely instrumental in getting IDPA approved at our local club (the staff may not know this, but their first presentation to the club BOD didn't go over well..I stuck up for them when the BOD turned to me with questions). And, I likely have more pro-IDPA posts on just Glock Talk than you have on the whole world wide web.

Further, you seem to take every opportunity possible to bash USPSA. I don't know who [in your mind] screwed you over in the past. At this point, I don't care. I can't imagine anything that would justify the zealous nature of your rhetoric.

You throw out insults like "Elitist" and "Shooting Divas" and you use the concept of "Super Squads" as your vehicle to do so. Yet, I am fairly certain that you have little to no experience with them. (As you say, they don't have them in IDPA...and you have only shot one major IPSC match, and that was over 9yrs. ago.)

So, when you bash a great sport that gets shooters out competing...when you hurl insults...when you speak rhetoric...and, when you talk of things you have little knowledge of...yeah, I think that qualifies as a load of crap.

:soap:

[Singlestack Wonder]

:wavey:

[Flexmoney]

Well, you probably know where you shot. I don't suppose you'd make that up. It must have been a while ago?

I show your membership (TY26840) in USPSA expiring in 2005. You have just one classifier on file since the spring of 2001.

The one major that is showing in your file is the Area 5, shoot in 1997. You must have shot those other Major matches a while back. Perhaps IPSC was evil back then, I don't know. They must have kicked your dog pretty hard. :(


you wanted to sign up for your 1st major IDPA match and felt slighted because the rules were not bent for you to be eligible to compete.

That wasn't the case at all. I've never tried to sign up for any IDPA Major match. I'm not even a member...never have been, never claimed to be.


It made no difference that you had never joined IDPA... I did try to join IDPA once. That is probably the thing you are thinking of. That is where I called in to join and give my cc# to pay the dues. They didn't do it that way. So, I printed off an application and sent that in. They wanted a witness to sign the application, so my second attempt didn't go through. Which is fine. If that is how they do things in the home office, that is their prerogative. No biggie. Frustrating that that a business would make it hard for a customer to give them money...but, no biggie.

...or shot any matches before then.

Sure I have. I just never told you about any of them. I figured you'd piss up a rope about them and get the match directors in trouble some how since I wasn't a member.
:wedgie:

Oh, by the way, I just checked the scores page for the IDPA group that uses the range you belong to, no scores whatsoever for you. Well, right and wrong. Even my home club is an hour away...and, shocker of shockers...my weekends are already pretty full with various events. While I didn't shoot any IDPA matches there this year, I did get a couple in last year when they were brand new and starting out.


You are just not going to be successful in painting me into an anti-IDPA corner...because there is absolutely no truth to that. I can did up post after post that shows me supporting IDPA (and all the other shooting sports). It would, however, be fairly easy to dig up your posts that are anti-USPSA. Do you want to go to the search engine and go post for post with me? You might get a little bit of propaganda to throw out. I do have, on various forums, thousands and thousands of posts on shooting. The law of large numbers says you should be able to find something to use against me.
:popcorn:

You are likely better off to make a graceful exit though.

[Flexmoney]

Dang Roy. I see you went back and edited your post some.

Heck that is no fun. :duel:


OK...I'm backing away from the keyboard....slowly....slowly...:outtahere:

[cmu7999321]

Has anyone received registration confirmation yet?

I have heard that those placed on the waiting list were notified via e-mail.

Thanks!
Corey

[Glock Dave]

I haven't heard anything yet either. Anyone else?

[Trebuchet]

No news is good news.

[Trebuchet]

Anybody else get their letters from S&W today?

:banana: :thumbsup: :banana:

[rhino465]

Originally posted by Flexmoney
Dang Roy. I see you went back and edited your post some.

Heck that is no fun. :duel:


OK...I'm backing away from the keyboard....slowly....slowly...:outtahere:


Maybe there's something in the Ohio water!!! :supergrin:

[Glock Dave]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Anybody else get their letters from S&W today?

:banana: :thumbsup: :banana:

Yes, mine came as well. Shooting Thursday afternoon.

[cmu7999321]

Got mine (yippee)!!!

Friday morning

--Corey

[Bogey]

Originally posted by cmu7999321
Has anyone received registration confirmation yet?

I have heard that those placed on the waiting list were notified via e-mail.

Thanks!
Corey


Got my confirmation the 26th. WOO HOO!


ETA: shooting Saturday.