Which Duty-type, law enforcement 12 gauge pump to buy?

[Ian]

Need advice please.
I have to purchase a shotgun for an L/E Handgun/Shotgun instructor course (as there is not just a handgun course this year):sad:
Please tell me what you think is the simplest, most reliable duty type L/E pump available.
Also as I have a slight shoulder injury, are all the pumps/autos the same in felt recoil with the same gauge/shot, or do they differ from model to model?

[DaBigBR]

A real 870 (e.g. not an express) would be my pick, with the Marine Magnum at the top of that list.

I would look at one of the Knoxx stocks...they are really supposed to help with the recoil.

[Ian]

Thank you I will, probably this weekend

[B+Shooter]

I like a Mossberg 590, but that is because of length of service with it.
The Benelli auto's look decent, but I don't have enough experience with them, just recommendations from friends that I trust.

[SomeGuyInAHat]

Remington 870P with 18.5" barrel and rifle sights.

[357ruger]

Hey Ian:First post here.Try Bud's gun shop.New 870 police for $378.00.Nice blueing and wood with the new recoil pad and the anti-jam flexitab.I think it is a lot better looking than my express.Also $100.00 plus less than a new marine magnum.If you get the express in any version,the locking safety is simple to change out with parts from midway for about $10.00.You need safety,spring and detent ball.Spring in the express is shorter than the replacement.Good luck.

[357ruger]

Forgot to add that the parkerized version is only about $20.00 more.The semi will probably have a little less felt recoil than the pump.You might could use reduced recoil buckshot for your course.There's a police magnum on Gunbroker right now with ugly orange stocks.You could buy something like that and put a knoxx stock on it.The reduced recoil buck may or may not function like it should in the semi but will in the pump.The 870 barrel can be swapped to a longer barrel in two minutes if you want to take bird hunting or shoot clays.Midway has a dvd that explains how to take apart and put together the 870 and there's really nothing you can't do to it on your on.You can completely strip these guns down in minutes.Parts can be found everywhere from brownell's to ebay.

[GLOCK23DK]

Originally posted by DaBigBR
A real 870 (e.g. not an express) would be my pick, with the Marine Magnum at the top of that list.

I would look at one of the Knoxx stocks...they are really supposed to help with the recoil.

Are you under the impression that there is a difference between an 870 express vs. the 870 marine magnum, other than the finish, the sling mounts, and the R3 recoil pad?

Having spoken with Remington themselves, there is no functional difference. It's the same gun.

[3/325]

Every time I start poking around I see the following recommendations:

Mossberg 590 pump
Remington 870 pump
Remington 1100 auto

All three are considered excellent shotguns. Obviously pumps are mechanically simpler and therefore less prone to malfunctions or other difficulties. All other factors being equal (butt stock, gauge, etc.) the "felt" recoil will be less in an auto. Not a tremendous difference, but enough to notice. Consider also that a 20 gauge can be an exceptionally damaging and deadly round when levelled against a human target.

My personal favorite has always been the 16 gauge. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of good tactical options for it. Some manufacturers only offer one model and it's almost always for hunting.

[Skintop911]

Originally posted by GLOCK23DK
Are you under the impression that there is a difference between an 870 express vs. the 870 marine magnum, other than the finish, the sling mounts, and the R3 recoil pad?

Having spoken with Remington themselves, there is no functional difference. It's the same gun.

Emphasis mine. An important distinction.

There are differences. Manufacturers usually won't offer just why some variants are made for economy, but the information is out there.

[M1Garand]

Remington 870 Police Magnum model with Tritium rifle sight (only $560) gotta be the best LE pump action shotgun. If you got money to spare, you can get the 870 P Max model with all the fancy features for about $875.

[GLOCK23DK]

Originally posted by Skintop911
Emphasis mine. An important distinction.

There are differences. Manufacturers usually won't offer just why some variants are made for economy, but the information is out there.

Id trust my life to my lousy, low quality, apparently inferior 870 express.

Would anyone let me shoot them in the chest with my 870 express 12ga? In return, you can shoot me with a fancy, apparently superior Marine Magnum.

yeah, Im willing to bet that for my purposes, and the purposes of 99% of the people here, an 870 is an 870 is an 870.

[DaBigBR]

I would take ANY non-express 870 over an express any day of the week.

870p, Wingmaster, MarMag, whatever. I like the MarMag because of the finish.

[Ian]

Consider also that a 20 gauge can be an exceptionally damaging and deadly round when levelled against a human target.

I would be very happy with a 20 guage, I presume that there would be a LOT less recoil. Thanks for the idea. Maybe I will try to swing it with the instructor.

[Skintop911]

Originally posted by GLOCK23DK
Id trust my life to my lousy, low quality, apparently inferior 870 express.

Do note that you're the only one who's expressed or implied that sentiment.

Would anyone let me shoot them in the chest with my 870 express 12ga? In return, you can shoot me with a fancy, apparently superior Marine Magnum.

:upeyes:

yeah, Im willing to bet that for my purposes, and the purposes of 99% of the people here, an 870 is an 870 is an 870.

I'd lower that percentage, but the principle is the same. Most folks won't ever run the guns enough to know the difference.

[terrance250]

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Copied from another website:



Here's what Remington says about the differance between the Express and the Police guns:

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, LE DIVISION
Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market.
It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870 functionality.
All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences.
It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models.
Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police.
To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance. Synopses of the variances are provided below.

• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.

With all that being said IMO if one is going to do lots of training, carry everyday (LEO), or do competition the 870 Police is the way to go. On the other hand for practical home defence purposes the Express
should do just fine.

[Skintop911]

Originally posted by terrance250
---------Copied from another website:

Thanks for posting that. :thumbsup:

[Vigilant]

If you're just buying a SG to run the course, then by all means, an Express should be fine. But keep in mind, every Express shotgun I have owned or been issued was very prone to surface rust problems. The ones that stay closed up in the armory at work are the worst for rust. If you plan to buy an Express, plan to also soak the metal down at least once every four months or so with some GOOD anti-rust oil, let it sit overnight, and wipe the excess off with a clean rag. You will probably be surprised to see how much rust comes off with the excess oil.

I have also encountered feed problems with Express shotguns, which have never been an issue for me with 870Ps. Pick up one of each, and rack the slide a few times. You will very likely feel the difference with the 870P.

One more suggestion: Find out which sights would suit you best. If you will be doing all buck, a bead should be fine. If you will also be firing slugs, rifle sights would make better sense.

I second the suggestion for a Knoxx stock if you have shoulder problems. Or the Remington R3 pad as a second choice. Also, I believe Remington is offering a $30 rebate on Express shotguns through the end of the year.

If I were making the decision, based on what I have seen, read and heard, the 870P would be my ONLY choice.

Vig

[M1Garand]

870 is just 870, but... I just like the "Police Magnum" receiver imprint better.

[BRAVHART]

I dont care what anyone says. I`m 100% sold on the mossberg 590 or 500 with the extended magazine tube. I use mine for duty and absolutley love it. Its control are more ergonomic and I have never ever seen one break down or jam. From my experience they group better and the price is alot better than the 870.. Dont get me wrong i like the 870 they make cool sights for them.. For me its make mine a mossberg.

I have a mossberg 500 with longer magazine tube with a surefire intergrated foregrip and side saddle. Works wonderfully.

[stmcelroy]

11-87 Police for me, but if limited to a pump i'd go with the 870 Police.

Steve

[Guns & Cockpits]

Let's not overlook the offerings of FNH for a police 12 gauge...

[B+Shooter]

Benelli Nova Pump?

[M4inCA]

If it were me purchasing it, 2 considerations:

Q - Pump or Auto?

If pump - 590A1 + Knoxx SpecOps stock.
If auto - Benelli M4

Why the 590A1?

Easy, heavy duty barrell, ghost rings, 8 rounds.


Why the M4?

Do you really need to ask?? USMC proven weapon, Enuf said.


But, that's me.

[Ian]

Just read over this post, and now I see where the express model sucks over the Police model.
A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.
My carrier dog broke and fell out on second visit to range!
The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.
My mag cap does NOT lock down the barrel!
Will everything else go wrong in this list?:sad: :shocked:

[EvilBlack10mm]

Remington 870 Police Magnum would be your best bet. Get the 870P Max if you have the funds.

[Bullman]

I think the new Ithaca Law Enforcment 37 is looking pretty sweet too

http://www.ithacagunsusa.com/firearms.html

probably not the 870 when it comes right down to it, but it was good enough for the LAPD for many years.

[danceswithglock]

My own personal choice is the 590A1, it's a rougher tougher gun.

[piste]

Just curious...checked on the Rem LE site and could not find answer. Are the "police" models available to non-LE types of folks?

[Rxzruby]

yes

[GLOCK35TX]

Benelli M1
(9 rounds if you ghost load)
Ghost Ring sights
Pistol grip
Side Saddle
3 point sling

[Infallible]

FN SLP or TPS.

[Nakkie]

Originally posted by Rxzruby
yes In all states?

[Infallible]

Originally posted by GLOCK23DK
Are you under the impression that there is a difference between an 870 express vs. the 870 marine magnum, other than the finish, the sling mounts, and the R3 recoil pad?

Having spoken with Remington themselves, there is no functional difference. It's the same gun.

It may function the same, as its still an 870 model, but your impression of them being equal is incorrect.

Originally posted by M4inCA

Why the M4?

Do you really need to ask?? USMC proven weapon, Enuf said.


But, that's me.

Just like the V-22 Osprey right? Sorry but just because some Marines use it doesn't make it the end all. The Army fields five times the amount of firearms in the field.

[SDDL-UP]

FWIW - There are only a few things that would really matter to me in the differences between the Express and Police 870's.

1 - finish - obviously the 870P has better finishes

2 - machined extractor and ejector (these can be purchased for around $30)

3 - no ISS (I really hate that ISS, but I think it's fairly easy to replace.)

4 - compressed metal trigger housing (I doubt there is ANY advantage to using compressed metal versus a polymer...this is a GlockTalk forum right? IMO the compressed metal housing might actually be more prone to cracking and breaking than the polymer if subject to a sharp blow.)

All of the other things listed by Remington are inconsequential in my opinion. A couple of springs, tumbled, assembled by the same people, these things are not likely to make them more durable or reliable in the long run. Sure they are more likely to be 100% out of the box, but save a lemon here or there, chances are your 870 Express is going to be reliable too.

I have both an 870 Marine Magnum (without ISS) and an 870 Tactical Magnum (with ISS), does anyone know if these have the machined extractor and ejector?

Thanks!