G21 For Hunting

[glockess56]

I was thinking of using a G21 for hunting. I was torn between that and buying a 1911 for the same purpose. I wanted the Glock because that's what I'm used to shooting. I was using a Mossburg500 with the deer barrel. I've had people ask me that since I practice with a handgun most of the time, why not hunt deer with a handgun? In Ohio, it has to have a five inch barrel and be at least .357 caliber. I've not seen this asked before and I am just curious. Any information will be greatly appreciated.

[Antfarmer]

Given the 5-inch bbl. requirement, you'll have to buy a longer one for the G21.

[postpostban]

Originally posted by Antfarmer
Given the 5-inch bbl. requirement, you'll have to buy a longer one for the G21.

If you buy a new barrel, you might want to look at .45 super.

[blinddog]

While the .45 ACP is excellent for defense. It has a lot wanting as a hunting round, the bullet profile for one gives a max effective range of fifty yards or less. The velocity is under 1000FPS from the muzzel, this also makes this round doubtful as a reliable hunting platform.
I have hunted with handguns in the past. But I always used a minimum .357 MAg and usually a .44 Mag. But even in the Magnums I limited shots to under fifty yards and usually under twenty five.
All of my hunting has been in the western states so my experiance is likely a lot differant then yours. I have never hunted in a state that made me hunt with a shotgun or handgun. I found that I had much better results hunting large animals Deer, Bear, Mt Lion and Elk with a rifle, But saying that I have hunted and killed all the above with only a handgun. But never with a .45 ACP. I do not even carry my 21 as back up when hunting, .44MAG, .41MAg, .357MAG ect.

[Tom in Ohio]

Obviously I also live (and hunt) in Ohio. As long as you get a 5" barrel you will be, legally, fine to hunt deer with it in Ohio. I wouldn't, though. If you really want to hunt with a handgun, get a T/C Encore with a 14" barrel and a scope - .44 mag is a good choice. It will shoot further and more accurately than your shotgun or your Glock. If you really want to hunt with your Glock, get a 5"+ BarSto barrel in .45/10mm conversion and a 10mm magazine. I'd probably also put good adjustable sights on the Glock and do all the trigger work you can.

[Lowrider 49]

I won't argue about previous posts and I use a 44 Mag myself, but my #1 son killed two doe this year with a 9mm shooting 4.5 grains of Universal Clays and a Ranier 115 gr HP out of a G22 with a LWD 9mm conversion barrel. Both shots thru the lungs at 25 - 30 yds and they went down within 15 yds or so. Both does had significant bleeding in the lungs and the shots were complete pass-thrus.

The 45 ACP and a good HP (maybe an XTP) will certainly kill deer within 30 yds or so with the proper shot placement. My 45 lb recurve kills them real well with a Bear 2 blade....deer are not hard to kill with good shot placement.

[blinddog]

Exactly, good shot placement will result in a dead any thing. Poachers have used the .22 LR for years and killed many many deer but that still don't make a .22 LR a good choice for deer.You cannot always get a 20 or 30 yard shot and trying to count on that will only result in an empty bag. As i said before the .45 ACp is a great self defense round probibly the best handgun round ever created for that but it is not a hunting round in any bullet type nor is a 9MM

[buckweet]

Originally posted by blinddog
Exactly, good shot placement will result in a dead any thing. Poachers have used the .22 LR for years and killed many many deer but that still don't make a .22 LR a good choice for deer.You cannot always get a 20 or 30 yard shot and trying to count on that will only result in an empty bag. As i said before the .45 ACp is a great self defense round probibly the best handgun round ever created for that but it is not a hunting round in any bullet type nor is a 9MM


ditto; on the .22

we where called headhunters way back then.
today i use a .308
deer are very eazy to kill.

weet

[Lowrider 49]

20 to 30 yds are are wonderful distances if you are a bow hunter and hunt the woods. There are a lot of places in the world where that is all the shot you can get...of course there are lots of places where the shot is 300+ yds too.

I went to a cowboy shoot (SASS) yesterday and a 70 plus year old fellow was telling me about using his .45 Long Colt in a 6" Colt SA to hunt deer. He used the same load on deer he used for SASS with a different bullet...soft cast 225gr SWC at about 800 FPS...sounds like a 45 ACP load to me. And like he said "That .45 LC really thumps deer...puts em down in their tracks". It sounded to me like he had been doing it for years.

I think that if you didn't tell the deer it was an ACP shooting the bullet...they would die just as well.

[4eyes]

Better check the Ohio state game laws legal pistol cartridges for deer. I don't believe the 45acp is allowed. Straight wall pistol cartridges of 357 magnum and magnum cartridges of higher energy are legal. The 357 mag is the minimum allowed. 45acp, 44spl. and others are not legal.

I think that you can use the 1911 45acp in WV, unless they changed the law recently.

[qiqazz]

Like 4eyes said, it doesn't look good for 45acp:

http://www.ohiodnr.com/WILDLIFE/PDF/Pub085.pdf

"...or handgun with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger..."

Taken literally, I'd say that as long as you have a 5in+ bbl, you could use anything with bore diameter larger than .357in. as long as it isn't necked down(400corbon, any Automag cartridge, etc.)- but government wording can't be taken literally 'cause you can't trust a word the ****ers say! :thumbsup:

However, the people that work for the gov't are usually nice enough. Email them at:

http://www.ohiodnr.com/contactform.asp?ref=/WILDLIFE/regs/default.htm

Or call them at: 1-800-WILDLIFE

[Lowrangerider]

10MM Glock 20 with a 6" hunting barrel is your answer. Power is at least as strong as a .357 mag if not a little better. I got one of the few Glock 20L's. I LOVE IT! I also use mine for deer hunting, just haven't got a chance to shoot a deer with it.

[10mm4ever]

Where can you purchase .45Super ammo and which barrel would take the pressures of this beast?

[epsylum]

Originally posted by 10mm4ever
Where can you purchase .45Super ammo and which barrel would take the pressures of this beast?

I hand load it (Starline makes the brass). I use a KKM 6" barrel and as heavy as a recoil spring as I can get. Buffalo Bore makes some .45super ammo, but it almost a dollar a round.

If you have a good 1911 (as in no RIAs etc.), which IIRC you do, look into .460 rowland. It is around .44mag power out of a 1911. The kit is made by Clark Customs (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/)

[blinddog]

Clark was working on a Glock conversion for the 460 Rowland but I think it was shelved. Seems like any fully supported barrel would work for the 45 Super though KKM or what ever. But you still have the problem with Barrel length in your state. A six inch rated for 45 Super might work but that is not an ACp and you would need to be very careful to not get ammo mixed, up since the ACP and super are the same length

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by epsylum
I hand load it (Starline makes the brass). I use a KKM 6" barrel and as heavy as a recoil spring as I can get. Buffalo Bore makes some .45super ammo, but it almost a dollar a round.

If you have a good 1911 (as in no RIAs etc.), which IIRC you do, look into .460 rowland. It is around .44mag power out of a 1911. The kit is made by Clark Customs (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/) I was thinking about a KKM with a #22lb. ISMI spring for the G21.

[blinddog]

A few years back I started planning a 460 Rowland project gun. My reasoning was because the Rowland is a bit longer while the 45 super is the same length. At the time Clarck was talking about doing a Glock conversion kit for the Rowland so I waited. But I have heard that they ran into some major obsticals so discontinued work on a 460 Glock. My misgivings with the super are still valid so I am again planning a 460 Rowland but on a 1911 longslide platform. I just have to wait till I get caught up on my other projects. Seems like any time I come up with any extra cash the wife find a project of her own to blow, err spend it on.

[10mm4ever]

I'll be ordering a Stormlake 6 inch for the G21 this week from Topglock. Has anyone chronoed .45+P or Super from a 6 inch barrel yet?

[Baldy]

Our NC deer run 100 pounds or so, and on my property, it would be really strange to get a shot from more than 40 yards. I cannot imagine a deer in this area that a 21 with a 230 gr. hollowpoint 45 ACP from a 6 inch aftermarket barrel wouldn't take.

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by Baldy
Our NC deer run 100 pounds or so, and on my property, it would be really strange to get a shot from more than 40 yards. I cannot imagine a deer in this area that a 21 with a 230 gr. hollowpoint 45 ACP from a 6 inch aftermarket barrel wouldn't take. Especially when you take a look at the Doubletap loads, do I hear an AMEN?? LOL

[Lowrider 49]

Amen and pass the beans!!

[10mm4ever]

Good news! JR at Lonewolf just informed me that the LW G21 barrels are now in stock and ready to go, so I'll be trying that out. They are not listed on the website, but they have them.

[ColoradoGlocker]

.

[Lowrider 49]

I just came back from buying some Blue Dot for the 10Mike Mike since I couldn't find any power pistol.

The Alliant charts (5.5" barrel) give a 180gr JHP 1240fps with 8.7grs of Power Pistol at 34,500psi. Blue dot at 10.4 grains does 1220fps.

Would you mind sharing your 10mm 180gr loads?

[10mm4ever]

LW just got in their G21 barrels and I ordered 6 inch today. They're not listed at the website just yet, but you can phone it in(#LWD21456) or ported(#LWD2145P2). Looks to be alot of barrel for 90 bucks.
Steve, wouldnt the .45 Super give the 10mm a run for its money, from a 6 inch? BTW, what is the .450smc?? Will this be DT's version of the .45Super?? Hell, DT has a 165 .45acp 165gr. listed @ 1,325 fps and over 600 ft. lbs. from a 5 inch barrel. Bear in mind, I'm not trying to "out 10 the 10", since I already have a G20, just trying to squeeze the most from this new G21 I picked up. I think it will make an excellent hunting platform with the right loads, and JR assures me, this barrel can take it.

[blinddog]

Energy is ok but momentum is stopping power momentum comes from mass. so the heavier the projectile the more mass and thus the more stopping power.

[10mm4ever]

I'd say both energy and mass are important. Look at the .357mag .125gr.SJHP. They've long been considered as "king of the hill" when it comes to manstoppers, proving that energy has its place. The best .45acp loads are about as good and make up for a lack of energy with pure mass.

[ColoradoGlocker]

.

[Lowrider 49]

Thanks Steve!!

I gotta find some power pistol and try your loads.

[blinddog]

10mm one of the things that have long been misunderstood about "stopping Power" is that both mass and terminal energy have a place in the equasion. My point is that in a Hunting application as opposed to self defense, Mass is more improtant than just terminal energy. MAss is what makes the bullet penitrate deeply, while terminal energy can cause rapid expansion, that is not always good in a hunting application.
This thread started about a G21 .45 ACP for deer hunting. I still hold that the 45 ACp while one of the best defensive handgun rounds ever invented is not a good choice for deer even the little dinks they were talking about have a denser muscle structure than a human (less fat and more lean hard Muscle) so the deeper the penitration into the vital area the more chance of a humane kill, as opposed to a leathel wounding and long track for the carcass.Or worst case a lost deer and coyote food.
While I agree that the .357 125 grn JHP is a good manstopper and has been acknowledged as such for many years, it is also been refered to as "marginal" for deer by many very knowledgable handgun hunters.
In short, people should decide on what tool they will use, based not only on published figures but also on the level of there own experiance and competence.BTW muzzel Velocity and energy figures are only applicable in a nose to nose confrontation, teh figure that should be used is the velocity and energy at impact range. While a particular handgun can give very impressive figures at the muzzel given the shape of a handgun bullet they tend to fall off rapidly after a few feet or yards.

[10mm4ever]

Couldnt agree more blinddog, I thought you were making reference to stopping power on humans with that post.

[blinddog]

No as I have been trying to say a handgun for hunting is a whole lot differant than one for self defense same as the ammunition used what may be great for self defense and work great on humans, is not always so great on animals since the physical and mental make up is so differant, even though some may want to argue,but humans, (esspcially from a more developed nation) usually run a lot more to fat than any animal in the wild. So if you look at it in that way the projectile that will penitrate a human with even a 7% body fat makeup will have a much differant result in an animal Deer coyote or what ever with maybe a two or three percent fat ratio. And given that all the testing that has been done over the years with clay gelatine or what ever really is useless since the media really has no relation to the acctual targets in real life.
I have to admit I have onle done limited testing with a 10 MM mostly from when the Bren ten first came out, then the FBI adopted then rejected it, and now the loaded down 10 and the 40 S&W. I carried a Glock 27 40MM for a while off duty and as a back up, but eventually went back to my 357 Snub for that role when I wasn't useing my G21. (Some times smaller is better)

I would think that the ten in a nonfrangible bullet design( heavier non or limited expanding design) would be a good bet, but the idea that a fast frangible bullet will be a good alternative for deer is basicly incorrect. It will crater rather than penitrate deeply and I would think a rib would shatter a light bullet.

[Lowrider 49]

I pretty much agree with you Blinddog.

Most of my handgun deer kills have been with a .44 Mag with 250 gr hard cast Keith SWC or a .357 Mag with a Rem 158 gr SP. Both kill deer quite well when placed in the right spot.

I have some experience(8 or 9 kills) with the 10mm 155 gr XTP shot in a sabot out of my TC 45 cal muzzle loader at about 1750 fps. In every case, the bullet provided complete penetration in 100 to 150 lb whitetales (mostly doe) and left 3-4" exit wounds when shot thru the ribs or front shoulder at 50 yds or under. IMO these are about 400 fps faster than they should be driven. My oldest son shot a 150 lb 7 pt this past Fall with the load and we lost the entire off side front shoulder. There were also bone fragments that went thru the lungs in almost a 90 degree spread from the entrance wound. We stopped using them due to extreme damage they cause. Maybe your deer are tougher than mine.

I wouldn't argue with you about the 45 ACP, but I bet a 200 gr SWC thru the middle of the ribs will give you steaks, roasts and jerky every time. Shot placement is still the key!!

Hunt safe!!

[10mm4ever]

The 10mm with the right loads has been proving itself against 600+lb. blackbear, wild boar and deer, no problem. I've been a big fan of the 10mm for a long time. I'm very impressed by the .45acp as a "manstopper" and really like the concept of "modernizing" it with loads such as the .45 Super, making it much more versatile. I like the fact that I can switch my G20 or 21 from "combat mode" to "hunting mode", by simply swapping barrels and recoil springs. To my way of thinking, whether 10mm or .45, you're getting a whole lot of gun for the $$$. Actually, my G23 is my CCW/HP piece. I've never felt undergunned with that little blaster!

[10mm4ever]

Well, in setting up the G21 for .45 Super I've done the following thus far.
Installed a NY1 trigger spring, along with a well polished 3.5 oem connector and love it! Then I added a LW extended and chromed slidelock, THE s/s guiderod and #20-22lb. ISMI recoil springs and today my LW 6 inch barrel arrived! I'm very impressed with everything about this barrel. Next up, I'll have to settle on which type of optic to go with and I'm done. I dont think this LW barrel will have a problem dealing with the .45 Super.;)
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f7/masterofg3/100_0743.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f7/masterofg3/100_0740.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f7/masterofg3/100_1227.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f7/masterofg3/100_0749.jpg

[NailShooter]

Lowrider 49
Senior Member


....Would you mind sharing your 10mm 180gr loads?


Lowrider, follow the loads in the IMR powder booklet for 10mm and 800X. When you are near max with this powder, better have a good bbl and spring in your G20. Hang on! Oddly, my G20 (with KKM) is more accurate the hotter the load with this powder. Regards,

NS

[Lowrider 49]

Thanks NS!

I'm shooting some Blue Dot loads that are pretty good with my 6" KKM. The 150 gr Nosler JHP are not feeding too well. I dropped the spring from 22 lb to 17 lb and down to 15lb and I really haven't seen too much difference. Next time I'm at the store, I'll see if I can find some 800X and give that a try. Can't be as good as shooting a 16d sinker!