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Ian
12-05-2006, 11:50
I have a chance of taking up this style, with a guy called Tommy (very famous?)
Could you tell me something about this style please?

mouser
12-05-2006, 12:49
I trained in this about 25 years ago!
A very reasonable style, based on center-line power.. punches and kicks from the center of the body. You can generate an amazing amount of power with these techniques. Even as much as 12 years later, when some other karate students were breaking boards with their "bigger"(see disclaimer below) techniques, I was still able to match the breaks with a 1" punch.
Supposedly this style is an older Shaolin style, which was honed in Hong Kong and Shanghai, on the rows and rows of boats tied together in the harbors... With this style, you can literally (ok, maybe not really) fight in a phone booth..

Disclaimer - not a disparaging remark, it's just that their punches/kicks took up a lot more room - I like karate and kickboxing too, all have their uses and benefits.

Dogbite
12-21-2006, 11:19
I agree with the above post, its a reasonable style. I say take it up, and see what you think. Most any training will do you some good. If I'm wrong, someone correct me, but don't the Guardian Angels of New York learn this style??

Danny Reid
12-23-2006, 11:35
Wing Chun would be a good system to take up. It is especially good for honing your close in fighting skills.

It is of southern Chinese origin. I am not aware of any Shaolin connection, so I would be somewhat dubious of that claim.

The story goes that is was actually formulated by a nun.

But keep in mind, all martial art 'origin' stories are often as much legend as fact.

Regardless, it is still an excellent system to study.

MtnBiker
12-23-2006, 18:01
I'm not sure about the Guardian Angels, but isn't this the style usually learned by the chinese tongs? It's fairly quick to learn and effective without a lot of flash.

mouser
12-23-2006, 18:54
From the "lore" I remember, a Shaolin nun did came up with the basics of the style. Looking at the arm position (and shoulder/forearm flexibility) required to throw centerline punches, I think it's reasonable that a woman did come up with it, as most mens arms don't naturally have the elbow pointing down when their arms are extended, but many women do have this "feature".
Those of you who have trained in Wing Chun, did any of you try the staff. It's much longer than the typical staff or bo - quite a bit harder, for me, at least.

thetoastmaster
01-14-2007, 10:28
Wing Chun, like many martial arts, is very good when it's good, and when it's bad, it is really laughable. I was fortunate enough to study Wing Chun from a good instructor. The proof of an instructor's ability is in his students. Go check it out. If it's good, you'll know it immediately. If it's bad, I hope you'll know faster. The instructor should teach simple skillsets first, centerline low kicks and strong centerline chain punches. We used to spend quite a bit of time on wall bags and heavy bags working on the mechanics of the punch, so that the students could land hard punches in succession. Later, you can learn how to fight against specific opponants (boxers and grapplers, for example).

That was a long-winded way to say "go check it out", I guess.

gr81disp
01-18-2007, 01:39
I have never studied Wing Chun, so I do not know about it, but I do know that you cannot learn how to fight a grappler unless you learn how to grapple. Just as a grappler cannot how to fight a striker without learning how to block strikes. (I would say the same thing about blocking grapples, but there isn't really an equivalent way to do it without grappling yourself)

OldRonin
01-18-2007, 06:11
I guess I have to politely disagree on the idea you have to learn grappling to stop a grappler. I wrestled when I was younger. I've trained for 30 years now standing up, and I've learned ways some fairly simple ways to keep a grappler from taking me down. Some of these are not sport techniques, though. UFC wouldn't allow parts of these methods. If any of you care for details, I'll share.

John

OldRonin
01-18-2007, 06:21
I've trained in Wing Chun along my 30 years of MA training.
All in all, its more combat effective than most other styles.
The training sure won't hurt you, you'll learn some great tools. I don't recommend single style learning, though I believe you should stick with training with a style until you really understand and can be proficient at its fundamentals.

If you can find somebody teaching silat or kuntao, they sound wierd, but if you add on their stuff with wing chun, you can turn yourself into on helluva wildcat.

Like the others said, try out this guy, see if you like training with him. If he's good, you'll learn a lot and be better off than if you spent the time in a karate class. I should know, I've got 5th dan in hard core karate, and I don't use much of any of the karate techniques for self-defense. They don't work, at least not the moves you learn in sparring, unless you are fighting another karate man.
In the street, you'll get creamed, unless you take the other guy out with your first move.

John

joedoc
01-18-2007, 07:38
Ronin, I would like to hear the techniques you refer to for use versus a grappler. I am an (old) TKD guy, and would prefer to stay upright also.

OldRonin
01-19-2007, 22:40
On not grappling a grappler.

I've gotten a number of private requests to explain what I meant in my earlier post, so I decided to post it for everyone to see. This is the basic technique. It has no name. I don't know who might have used it before me. I spend a lot of time analyzing martial arts and combatives, always looking for what really works, and what doesn't. I was working on developing a counter against a guy charging at me low, and I came up with this move. I couldn't believe how easy it was to do.

Stopping a grappler’s charge from taking you down.

Quick explanation: At the moment he’s about to reach you, you suddenly start shuffling and backing up at the same speed he’s coming in at you. You reach out with both hands and slap your hands onto the top of his shoulders and press down, while you keep backing up, pressing his shoulders down as you go by gradually lowering your weight by bending you knees a little more with each shuffle, so that eventually he hits the ground with his face. It’s a simple move, once you’ve practiced it a few times.

You can think of this of using the principles of aikido (redirecting incoming force into a way that puts him down and leaves you standing.) You can do it the “nice” way, where his chest hits the dirt, or if you are in serious danger, you can do variations or use some "add ons" to cause serious damage.

Add-ons: a) Push down sharply on the back of his neck or head so his face hits the ground first. b) Reach around to his face and twist-gouge a finger(s) into an eye socket. C) slap him sharply over both ears as soon as it is safe to stop pushing down on his shoulders.
d)do a "Mexican hat dance" on his hands as soon as he hits the ground. e) Stomp on his ankle so he can't get up and chase you.
CAUTION: NEVER, EVER, KICK A MAN IN THE HEAD WHEN HE'S DOWN. You're likely to face a criminal charge.

I urge everyone to use the appropriate level of counter-force.


More details:

Variation 1: if there is very little room to back up, you step deftly to the side and shuffle what few steps you can, and rotate your body a bit as you slap the top of his incoming shoulders and push down sharply as you twist and direct him into a face-landing just like before, except instead of going back in a straight line, you do it in a spiral.

Anybody who comes at you with his head at your waist level, you should side-step slightly so you aren’t directly in the line of incoming force, put a good crab grip into the back of his neck and push down, using the “dropping-energy” of bending you knees and lowering your center of gravity. Keep your back straight!

This is the basic method. Different kinds of grappler take-downs require variations of this move.

Train. Stay safe. Train some more.


John

gr81disp
01-20-2007, 03:28
Sorry, but that has a very low probability of working. This description is how to defend against a "football tackle", NOT a grappler's takedown. 1) The takedown will most likely be too fast to move very far back 2) The grappler will probably be too close 3) The grappler does NOT charge with his head down, he lowers his level, keeping his head UP, moves forward VERY quickly, grabs the legs and, keeping his head up, pushes UP and forward. Pushing on his head will probably push his head to the side, but you still end up on your back. Anyone who attempts to beat grappling without learning how to grapple is going to lose. Period.

agarr
01-21-2007, 09:44
gr81disp,

I have been an active Wing Chun practioner since 1977. Merely a student with lots of repetition and experience in BJJ. I also am a NiDan in Judo. We crosstrain in Muay Thai to the point where I and others here have competed (and won) quite a few Muay Thai events.

We have a few "grapplers" come to our place to learn effective striking and low kicks. A grappler can be easily defeated and a takedown is not so difficult to deflect or avoid.

Wing Chun is known for linear movements and powerful punching. However, one of the most devastating parts of Wing Chuns arsenal of offense is the low kicks. Simply front kicking a grappler in the face will prevent most take down attempts. Not fancy, but effective. :rofl:

Don't forget a Muay Thai knee strike to the bridge of the nose either. That will dissuade a takedown attempt.

There is also a Wing Chun technique simply called - Bil Jee..... a rapid series of finger strikes to the eyes.

In my experience, Wing Chun is a simple Martial Art that is complex at the same time. After 30 years studying , there is much yet to learn. My Wing Chun training has served me well in the dojo and the street.

gr81disp
01-21-2007, 18:48
What if the grappler doesn't do a double or single leg? There are other takedowns, especially Judo throws. If you wish to become a complete fighter, you CANNOT ignore grappling that is all I am saying. Agarr, if you didn't take Judo or Bjj, would you be able to counter those takedowns, get your timing correct? Kit Cope is a former Light-Heavyweight and Welterweight champion in Muay Thai, but was just destroyed by "Razor" Rob McCollough last night in under 3:00. He is currently 1-4 in MMA (the closest parallel to a streetfight) with 3 losses coming on the ground. I doubt it is because he can't kick them in the face and I really doubt it is because he isn't allowed to use "teh d34dly" eye strikes, but simply because he cannot fight on the ground.

OldRonin
01-22-2007, 15:27
Are you saying a trained grappler could stop the other grappler from taking him down, or that he would likely go down and try to out-grapple the attacker? If it is the former, how would the grappler keep from going down?

What you describe does sound very tough to stop. I think a lot of this all depends on skill versus style. I don't doubt a young, strong, very fast grappling expert could probably dump me on my *ss if his timing was good. Again, it's the relative skill, not the "style".

I have so far been able to counter the grappler's I have trained with, but that proves nothing, really.

In an ideal world, I would cross-train in everything I could, no doubt about it. But I can't.

Since I don't get into barfights, I wonder how many street thugs would attack me with a skilled take-down as you describe. Just a thought.

Halojumper
01-23-2007, 17:11
Originally posted by OldRonin
I've trained in Wing Chun along my 30 years of MA training.
All in all, its more combat effective than most other styles.
The training sure won't hurt you, you'll learn some great tools. I don't recommend single style learning, though I believe you should stick with training with a style until you really understand and can be proficient at its fundamentals.

If you can find somebody teaching silat or kuntao, they sound wierd, but if you add on their stuff with wing chun, you can turn yourself into on helluva wildcat.

Like the others said, try out this guy, see if you like training with him. If he's good, you'll learn a lot and be better off than if you spent the time in a karate class. I should know, I've got 5th dan in hard core karate, and I don't use much of any of the karate techniques for self-defense. They don't work, at least not the moves you learn in sparring, unless you are fighting another karate man.
In the street, you'll get creamed, unless you take the other guy out with your first move.

John

What kind of Karate were you doing? Sounds like you have reason to have a beef with your sensei/system.

OldRonin
01-23-2007, 18:26
Do I have a "beef" with my karate sensei/system?

I wouldn't call it a beef. I don't regret a single day of the many years I spent in the karate dojo. Changed me for the better, taught me how to be a warrior, put 40# of muscle on my skinny frame, gave me the fortitude to overcome what I formerly might have felt was impossible. made me able to ignore pain, deprivation, overcome fear, calm myself in crisis situations, take hits that broke my bones and keep fighting. Sure, that were the good things. The movements patterns burned deeply into my brain from kata training, once I began to be able to decode them after 7 years of training.

Systems have limitations, because they have structures and boundaries and rules that cannot be bent or broken.

Karate, as imported by Funakoshi and spread throughout Japan was never meant to be a self-defense system. It was a tool to build character and warrior spirit, and in the '30's, to brainwash Japanese youth into ultra-nationalism as they invaded Manchuria, the Phillipines, and ultimately into WWII. The Japanese didn't need a newer unarmed self-defense system, they had jujitsu and aikijujitsu, far more effective arts. So I trained in them, too.

Funakoshi took out all the most effective techniques of karate so the students wouldn't hurt each other in training.

I went to Japan in the early 80's to fight against the college shodans. They showed great etiquette, but they couldn't fight a real fight. Even the smaller women in my tour group beat the crap out of those college boys. The only Japanese I fought there that blew me away were in the late, great Gogen Yamaguchi's dojo. But it wasn't the Goju system that made them so formidable, though I think Goju has better hand work than Shotokan and its clones. Yamaguchi'sensei's students had such incredible ferocity, they couldn't grow a potted plant inside the dojo. Those guys were so fast, so ferocious, they beat us to a pulp. Humbled me right quick.
I was a Nidan then, and thought I was pretty tough. They showed me another quantum leap up into the realm of "tough". I'm forever grateful. The butt-kicking they gave me and my colleagues taught me things I treasure to this day.

The problem with staying "loyal" to one system is that once you are highly ranked, you can't be seen cross-training anywhere. You are trapped in a near cult system. You can't write anything the public might read that goes outside the lines, because it reflects directly on your sensei. Once you've trained for 15 years with one man, and he hasn't grown or developed in those 15 years, you are in a stagnant system. Bottom line: As a self-defense system, karate doesn't work. It was never designed to. And that's OK. It's good for what its good for, but realistic self-defense isn't it. So, I keep my iron fists and other tools and my guts, focus, and fudoshin, and go elsewhere to seek the wisdom of a range of others. Like this-- would you want to go through grad school and get your PhD, and only have one instructor the entire time?

So if you want to learn how to move in a real-life encounter, you have to train in systems that teach close-in, fluid, non-linear movements with better strategies.

I didn't learn to REALLY fight until I cut myself free so that I could explore other systems, learn from a variety of teachers, see different perspectives with an open mind. Absorb it all.

The karate gave me a good, solid foundation. Without it, all my cross-training would not have been nearly as useful. But as a stand-alone system, karate and its Korean clone TKD, are not combat systems.

The Okinawans kept all the best secrets for themselves. The Japanese didn't get them. The GI's who trained in Okinawa didn't get the real art of "Te" either.

But this post is already far too long, so for now, I'll leave it at that.

with respect and gratitude, and a forever open mind...


John

Halojumper
01-23-2007, 19:41
I guess it all depends on what a person wants out of a martial arts system. I think that, for the most part, the Funakoshi based systems are far better at the spiritual and personal development than at teaching people to fight. Dave Lowry is popular with these types. As long as a person knows that that is what he is getting into, that's ok. All too often people who don't know any better sign up for a program that advertises Karate (often it is TKD (that's a whole other story of ineffectiveness)) and self defense and the person thinks that is what he will learn. Fortunately, most of these people really never have to use any of it to defend themselves, but when they do, they get their butt handed to them. Most of these systems are based on ridiculous interpretations of kata that bear no glimpse of reality to real fighting.

OldRonin
01-23-2007, 22:18
You hit the nail on the head.

I didn't start training for self-defense reasons. That came later. I got what I needed and moved on.

John

gr81disp
01-25-2007, 02:54
Yes, a skilled enough grappler will be able to stop another grappler from taking him down if he so wishes. Jacare, ADCC World Submission Wrestling champion, is infamous for his ability to stop a takedown. The technique is called the sprawl and is actually quite simple. The hard part is the timing as you have to be quite fast to not be taken down. All it involves is moving your feet as far back, usually by doing a small jump, as possible while thrusting your hips into your opponents head. This keeps him from taking your legs out from under you and helps break his posture so his head lowers and you gain control. It is a good idea to hook under his arms if you are a more accomplished grappler, otherwise, when his knees are on the ground, push away from him and creat distance.

Here is a picture.

http://www3.mpls.k12.mn.us/washburn/athletics/wrestling/boys/0203/photos/index-Thumbnails/29.jpg

As for stopping a Judo throw, well, I have never been very good at that, so you should probably talk to a judoka. All I do, and it works ok unless I am against somebody with some skill, is use my body to stop his body movements while extricating whatever he has a hold on. Like I said, never was too good at Judo.

OldRonin
01-25-2007, 07:51
So, your example involves putting weight on the incoming grappler's head and forcing him down while you move you feet back, except he meets the incoming force with force.

My experience is that the same thing can be accomplished without opposing his force directly, essentially the same move, except without having to outmuscle the other guy, you move back with his energy and force his head down until he falls on his face.

Stopping a judo throw is quite possible, but I must admit that to learn it involves practicing enough with a judoka to get it right. The GENERAL principle is to counter the kuzushi that begins the throw. Often jamming his pelvis as it moves in to attempt to act as a pivot point is effective.


John

OldRonin
01-25-2007, 07:55
Another thought, if the guy is trying classic judo, wherein he grabs you with both hands, you use your hands to destroy targets in his throat,eyes, or a good palm heel to both sides if his head, or jam a palm heel up into is chin like and uppercut.

Classic judo only works because there is a RULE, no hitting the opponent when he gets close to you.

John

gr81disp
01-25-2007, 18:13
The problem with your idea is that you are moving your body backwards, so that is where your body weight is going. That is EXACTLY where I would want your body weight to go if I was trying to take you down because your arms are not going to be strong enough to stop my legs and back which is what I use for a takedown. In a sprawl, your weight comes down on me and keeps me from exploding upward as it is now your body weight + gravity vs. my legs, so unless I have a big size advantage, I lose.

OldRonin
01-25-2007, 21:59
The technique I use is essentially a sprawl except the I accelerate in reverse so that the incoming grappler's center of gravity becomes so overextended gravity pulls him right to his face. This way the grappler's strenght is not an issue. It's done in less than one second. I've also used it against towards my legs by jamming his shoulder so that he can't get a good grip on a leg. It's worked against a shoot below my knees by starting with a jump back, dropping my weight by bending my knees and shoving down on the shooter's as I back up. Again, he's over-extended, and the success of the technique depends on me trying to root in place, or moving into you. By yielding, gravity brings the shooter down. The only time it fails is if you don't react in time, and the shooter gets his body mass impacting you before you start moving.
It works.
What else can I say.

Respectfully,

gr81disp
01-26-2007, 04:15
Ah, I see said the blind man.

From your original description, I was thinking you were backpedaling while attempting to push his head away, a common technique that I have seen many times and never seen work. I now see that you are doing something different that is actually used by a lot of fighters if they feel that they should disengage. Cool.

OldRonin
01-26-2007, 16:16
I guess it is very hard to describe in words complex body movements. Its easy to miscommunicate.

I disagree with calling the move as wishing to "disengage", rather, I would call it a refusal to join in the means of engagement of the grappler rushing in. In other words, I don't want to fight his fight. So my moves are causing the takedown to fail, and make him hit the ground, hopefully in a way where he can't protect himself from injury as he hits the concrete. Then, as he hits the concrete, I get busy stomping on joints or muscles that will cripple his ability to get up and re-engage me.

What I really appreciate about grappling is that it taught karate men what they didn't know--- that karate as it was being taught had many critical weaknesses. In sport versions of fighting, even if it is called "no holds barred", does have about twenty techniques that are barred. These are precisely the techniques that I would need to permanently disable or kill the grappler. Those techniques are the ones that end of criminal assault.

I still love watching sport matches. It shows me what DOESN'T WORK. I myself had not realized all the weaknesses in what I was doing until I saw the Gracie's, and many who followed, totally dominate the strike focused fighters. I'm glad these expert grapplers came along before I ever had to face a direct assault from a strong experience grappler on the street. I'd be dead.
I'm talking self-defense, not sport.


The bottom line, I guess, is the general philosophy, if you want to call it that, of grappling as a more or less a continuous application of force against force to gain leverage and out-maneuver the opponent until you have him in a place where he is in full checkmate. Trapped into a place where he cannot defend himself, and you can either pummel him into mush, or dislocate his arm. In order to do this, it is very helpful to be on the ground, where 50% of your options to escape are blocked, and you have something immovable to pin him against.

The fighting "philosophy" I am trying to describe is to almost never oppose a force, but to redirect his energy in such a way that you "help" him fall down while you remain standing, and if need be, hurt him bad enough so that he cannot fight or doesn't want to fight. In my self defense "style", I never hang on to anything for more than a second, never fight muscle or do a rigid block, but get in real close and redirect any attempts to restrict my movement while I am always fluid, changing positon via continuous footwork to always be in the position where I can hit him, unbalance him, whatever, but he can't hit or control me. I never root myself in one place longer than it takes to deliver the energy of an impact. It's mistakenly called soft style, but it ain't soft on the receiving end. I hit hard, fast, and only to specific targets.

I didn't intend to end up fighting this way, its what my evolution of doing what worked best is leading me to.

This is not to disrespect grappling, except that I would argue that grappling is NOT a good method of self defense, because, most bad guys are carrying knives, and in the midst of a brilliant ground maneuver, BG may be able to deploy his blade and poke a lot of holes in your kidney and spleen, or slash the tendons necessary to fight with.

This has been interesting. Thank you.

gr81disp
01-26-2007, 18:30
My argument is that if ANY point your opponent pulls a knife, no matter your style, it is best to engage in the ancient martial arts of Run-Do or Glock-Fu. Striking does not especially give you an edge on an armed opponent.

OldRonin
01-26-2007, 18:42
I totally agree. Knife=Run. I didn't mean to imply that one should engage someone holding a knife. Just that being on the ground gives the other guy an opportunity to knife you and you can't see it coming.

Of course, if he's good, you won't see it standing up, either. :thumbsup:

lawman_77008
12-17-2007, 09:23
I have been thinking about getting back into the martial arts. I am not a youngster anymore (in my forties) and am not as flexible as I once was. I also don't heal as fast. So I've been trying to decide what style to study. I want something that is fun to train in, street effective, but my body can't take the beating it could when I was twenty something.

In chronological order I've done a little Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and most recently Wing Chun. I wasn't too impressed with Tae Kwon Do. The older I get the less I can throw high kicks to the head. I enjoyed Judo and have actually used it on the street a couple of times. Judo can be effective if the other guy doesn't know how to block your throw. But I don't think my back wants to be slammed on the mat anymore. I really enjoyed Wing Chun but the further I got into it, the more I questioned it's effectiveness. A lot of time is spent on Chi Sao - learning how to trap. Trapping is cool but I'm not sure how well it would work in an actual fight. Wing Chun has really fast punches (chain punching) however the punches don't seem to have much power behind them since they are thrown with just the arm and don't have your body weight behind them.

I've thought about taking Krav Maga. I observed the local Krav Maga group training. It reminded me a lot of my old Wing Chun class.

The other styles that I've thought about are Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. They are both street effective in my opinion but the training is very physically demanding. My son studied both for a year and loved them, especially Muay Thai. Muay Thai really helped him get into shape.

gr81disp
12-18-2007, 00:22
You will NOT find a MA that is both street effective and easy on the body. Combat is rough and so is the training.

I have done Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and dabbled in a little Muay Thai. Both are hard and you will be beaten up and tired. As for which is harder, I personally found Muay Thai harder, but that is probably because I am somewhat clumsy. I would recommend both together as the muay thai clinch makes an excellent transition into a takedown and bjj. But, make no mistakes, they are both pretty hardcore.

ArodJohns
12-18-2007, 00:54
Quick explanation: At the moment he’s about to reach you, you suddenly start shuffling and backing up at the same speed he’s coming in at you. You reach out with both hands and slap your hands onto the top of his shoulders and press down, while you keep backing up, pressing his shoulders down as you go by gradually lowering your weight by bending you knees a little more with each shuffle, so that eventually he hits the ground with his face. It’s a simple move, once you’ve practiced it a few times.

That's called a sprawl. Nothing particularly dangerous or nasty.....

lawman_77008
12-18-2007, 08:44
You will NOT find a MA that is both street effective and easy on the body. Combat is rough and so is the training.

I don't consider either Wing Chun or Krav Maga too physically demanding. At least not from what I've seen. Of course I realize it will depend upon the instructor and how it's taught. I was wondering if anyone considered these arts street effective? I have a couple of friends who are black belts in Aikido and have offered to train me, but I don't want to spend five to ten years getting the hang of it before I could use it.

I have done Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and dabbled in a little Muay Thai. Both are hard and you will be beaten up and tired. As for which is harder, I personally found Muay Thai harder, but that is probably because I am somewhat clumsy. I would recommend both together as the muay thai clinch makes an excellent transition into a takedown and bjj. But, make no mistakes, they are both pretty hardcore.

I did some kickboxing about twenty years ago and I have studied Judo for about a year. So I've got some idea how rough Muay Thai and BJJ are and to be honest I don't feel I'm in shape for them right now.

lawman_77008
12-18-2007, 08:45
That's called a sprawl. Nothing particularly dangerous or nasty.....

But effective against take downs.

gr81disp
12-18-2007, 22:25
Well, when it comes down to it, personally, I can't recommend WC for effectiveness.

Simply put, whenever a WC person attempts to fight, it turns out badly for them.

Here a guy decided to try WC vs. Bjj:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8472978169299770370&q=wing+chun+mma&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

And the rematch.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8472978169299770370&q=wing+chun+mma&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

And the only time I know of that somebody fought with WC in the old-school UFCs

http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/536/cat/523

You look funny also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KxuDYfpSQ

lawman_77008
12-19-2007, 16:35
Well, when it comes down to it, personally, I can't recommend WC for effectiveness.

Simply put, whenever a WC person attempts to fight, it turns out badly for them.

Well that's the kind of honest answer I was looking for. That was pretty much my feeling about it. I spent roughly a year doing WC and the more time I spent there, the less effective I thought it was.

What do you think of Krav Maga? I see that a lot of folks on Glock Talk seem to think it is effective. I only observed one class and I was not too impressed.




You look funny also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KxuDYfpSQ

:rofl:

agarr
12-19-2007, 19:15
Well, when it comes down to it, personally, I can't recommend WC for effectiveness.

Simply put, whenever a WC person attempts to fight, it turns out badly for them.

Here a guy decided to try WC vs. Bjj:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8472978169299770370&q=wing+chun+mma&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

And the rematch.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8472978169299770370&q=wing+chun+mma&total=257&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

And the only time I know of that somebody fought with WC in the old-school UFCs

http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/536/cat/523

You look funny also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KxuDYfpSQ

gr81disp, Tell you what, pick any Saturday that you want to test your skills.

You can start with the juniors and work your way up if you are able.......:tongueout:

Francis Fong Wing Chun Academy. Duluth, GA..........look it up.

I bet Sifu Fong would get a great laugh at this.

Your beloved BJJ is overrated outside the "Octagon" especially where the "rules" don't apply.

ArodJohns
12-19-2007, 23:30
But effective against take downs.

Oh yeah, it is. :)

ArodJohns
12-19-2007, 23:43
gr81disp, Tell you what, pick any Saturday that you want to test your skills.

You can start with the juniors and work your way up if you are able.......:tongueout:

Francis Fong Wing Chun Academy. Duluth, GA..........look it up.

I bet Sifu Fong would get a great laugh at this.

Your beloved BJJ is overrated outside the "Octagon" especially where the "rules" don't apply.

Obviously, there are things you can't do in the street like "pull guard". However, there are some pretty nasty things you CAN do where the rules don't apply.

Heel Hook:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0p9P0BlAlA

Knee Bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g92JEWFTSs4

Arm Bar (This one's not the usual one you'd see, but it's still the same principle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No_UExtnpNs

Arm Triangle (This one's from bottom of guard, but you can do it from about anywhere):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDVU44qdFlU

Triangle Choke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt2sZFj9lLM

If you'll notice, none of these rely on any specific set of rules and they will all either render someone unconcious in a few seconds or break the limb you have a hold of.

gr81disp
12-19-2007, 23:55
That looks like a really good school actually, mainly due to Sifu Fong also being a Muay Thai instructor and the 7th degree BJJ black belt. I won't lie, looking at that school, you have students that would likely tear me apart, but to claim that it is pure WC is blatently false.

As for your bad mouthing of BJJ, the art has been proven time and again outside the "Octagon" where "the rules don't apply."

As for Krav, I don't have any experience. From what I have heard, it is more to do with the quality of instructor with some really good and some really bad.

White Buffalo
12-25-2007, 23:25
gr81disp, Tell you what, pick any Saturday that you want to test your skills.

You can start with the juniors and work your way up if you are able.......:tongueout:

Francis Fong Wing Chun Academy. Duluth, GA..........look it up.

I bet Sifu Fong would get a great laugh at this.

Your beloved BJJ is overrated outside the "Octagon" especially where the "rules" don't apply.Funny thing about that, where rules don't apply, I'm just as likely to punch someone in the throat, gauge their eye, rip at an ear, knee a downed opponent in the face, foot stomp, etc, etc.. after I've taken them to the ground and mounted them however I please, as I was taught by my instructor. Or choke them out. Or break a limb. Don't put so much stock on someone telling you that their art is so "devestating deadly", that that is the reason it's uneffective in the prize fighting arena... it's uneffective because it's uneffective. I'm in nashville, and I train Vale Tudo. I'll take your challenge if you're authorized to be offering it. I may get stopped somewhere down the line, but I doubt your Sifu will get a great laugh at more than a few of his students getting hurt.

ArodJohns
12-25-2007, 23:39
Funny thing about that, where rules don't apply, I'm just as likely to punch someone in the throat, gauge their eye, rip at an ear, knee a downed opponent in the face, foot stomp, etc, etc.. after I've taken them to the ground and mounted them however I please, as I was taught by my instructor. Or choke them out. Or break a limb. Don't put so much stock on someone telling you that their art is so "devestating deadly", that that is the reason it's uneffective in the prize fighting arena... it's uneffective because it's uneffective. I'm in nashville, and I train Vale Tudo. I'll take your challenge if you're authorized to be offering it. I may get stopped somewhere down the line, but I doubt your Sifu will get a great laugh at more than a few of his students getting hurt.

I'll spot the video tape and the directions on how to post it on line if you want to set a camera up and tape it while spanking this dude.

White Buffalo
12-26-2007, 00:22
I'll spot the video tape and the directions on how to post it on line if you want to set a camera up and tape it while spanking this dude.I find it amazing that people actually believe that what they see on the last episode of TUF is what we limit our training to, like I'm somehow against kneeing the ever loving **** out of someones balls in a clinch to get them down.... or I won't fish hook, pull their hair, break fingers or wrists or whatever.... someone needs to do a bit more research on what fighting is all about.


Case in point, I've got a buddy, a real good friend, who has some degree blackbelt in sansoo kungfu (have no idea what it is, nor do I care). Some real fancy moves them dudes do in their training. In a fight, he doesn't do half that crap. He gets in close, drops as many knees or whatever he can, then tries for the takedown. Hmm, he had to spend 8 years of his life to learn that? Hell, whenever he and I spar, it's a judo/juijitsu match with some thai clinching involved.... all of which he could have learned in about a year or two in another art. What works works, what don't don't. I don't waste my time learning fancy moves that mean crap in a fighting situation cause I train to fight if I have to fight. Different arts mean different things to different people, and that's cool.... Discipline, honor, whatever. If that's what you're into, go for it. Just beware, some of us are out there learning to fight so you don't kick our asses... and them cool fancy moves aren't gonna help you do squat. Not saying that this guys Sifu isn't a warrior, surely his credentials best mine by sight on paper ( I have none on paper, btw).... I've just been in a fight or two in my time.

White Buffalo
12-27-2007, 19:59
Well??? I'd like to know if you want me to cash that check or throw it away?

ArodJohns
12-27-2007, 20:11
Well??? I'd like to know if you want me to cash that check or throw it away?

Give him a couple days to find someone who knows how to fight so they can be at the gym on the same night you are.




I'm going to go find a really nice "owned" picture somewhere..... :rofl:

White Buffalo
12-27-2007, 20:21
Give him a couple days to find someone who knows how to fight so they can be at the gym on the same night you are.




I'm going to go find a really nice "owned" picture somewhere..... :rofl:
man, I'm gonna be fighting mad if I come out there on my dime for nothing, I can tell you that much.... have a feeling they're not going to want to do vale tudo though, willing to bet a bunch of "rules" are about to be introduced,which defeats his entire arguement of bjj being useless without the rules, which in truth, the rules are what hurt bjj.

The "rules" are there so noone gets seriously hurt and I understand that,I just get pissed when they start using those same rules as an excuse for them losing...Whatever though, I'm game.... I don't train cause I like getting sweaty 3 to 5 nights a week with other dudes. As long a noone presses charges, that is.. Not gonna lose my carry permit over it.

ltgibson2001
12-28-2007, 09:32
What do you think of Krav Maga? I see that a lot of folks on Glock Talk seem to think it is effective. I only observed one class and I was not too impressed.
I'm an Instructor so I'm a little biased. You probably watched a Level I class which is beginers. As far as it not being physicaly demanding I would definately think you watched a Level I class. Now you shouldn't get hurt in class (if thats what you mean by physicaly demanding)but a lot of people use Krav for getting in shape as much as learning self defense.They just try to build you up so they don't run people off when they aren't in shape, thinking that Krav is too hard for them to do. A little background about Krav. It was developed for the Israeli military in which all male and female citizens must serve when they turn 18. So they wanted something that anybody could do regardless of age,sex,strength, and athletic ability with minimal refresher training needed to maintain proficiency.It is also meant to bring people up to a good level of proficiency in a relatively short period of time.The self defense techniques work off what your natural instict is rather than a learned response that you have to be able to execute under stress.It is also taught to the Israeli National Police and various security and intelligence agencies there. They try to focus on your conditioning because they want you go all out,eliminate the threat, and get away. They also try and instill an agressive attitude when dealing with threats. As far as it's effectiveness ..the Israeli's have been using since the early 50's in one of the (if not the) most volitale regions of the world. In such it is probably the most continualy tested system out there in the modern era. If it didn't work they wouldn't use it. I have a black belt in another system but I like Krav a lot better because it's a reality based self defense system. I understand also how basic it can seem coming from another system at the begining level because your covering things you already know like how to punch,kick, block etc...They teach all the combatives first before moving on to the self defense portion because all your self defense techniques should be followed up with combatives. I had been in a Level I class for a couple of months then went to a Law Enforcement Instructor course which has a lot of advance techiques that you wouldn't get in to in the regular Krav Classes until Levels III ,IV, or V. That really made Level I and II boring for me. There isn't a lot of ground work in Krav but there is some but their focus is on getting off the ground for reasons stated above (more bad guys around you or the guy your wrestling with on the ground pulls a knife or some other weapon) in order to get away.Krav Maga is not the be all end all of self defense but I do believe it is currently the best reality based self defense system out there. There are other particular techniques in other system that may be better but those techniques are learned responses,takes a lot more time to master, and may not be able to be performed by everyone. This is one of the things Krav Maga trys to avoid. If your an LEO try to get the Instructor where you watched a class show you some of the gun disarms. They are pretty cool and some schools offer LEO classes only where you don't really advance in levels but you get advanced material a lot sooner. If you have any more questions about Krav you can pm me and I'd be happy to help you out.

Blast
10-28-2008, 11:20
Lot's of good stuff here. +1 on Krav Maga. I also think learning different styles is good. Kung Fu (any of the styles, Wing Chun is good one), Aikido, Hapkido, Ju Jitsu, and good old fashioned street fighting to name a few.
Also learning weapons... staff, nunchuks, tonfa, sword, etc. are good even if only for honing and toning. I also lean toward the notion that most anything can be a weapon.

Just my 0.2$

BigMatt
10-28-2008, 11:57
I've trained in Wing Chun along my 30 years of MA training.
All in all, its more combat effective than most other styles.
The training sure won't hurt you, you'll learn some great tools. I don't recommend single style learning, though I believe you should stick with training with a style until you really understand and can be proficient at its fundamentals.

If you can find somebody teaching silat or kuntao, they sound wierd, but if you add on their stuff with wing chun, you can turn yourself into on helluva wildcat.

Like the others said, try out this guy, see if you like training with him. If he's good, you'll learn a lot and be better off than if you spent the time in a karate class. I should know, I've got 5th dan in hard core karate, and I don't use much of any of the karate techniques for self-defense. They don't work, at least not the moves you learn in sparring, unless you are fighting another karate man.
In the street, you'll get creamed, unless you take the other guy out with your first move.

John
A man after my own heart...Wing Chun IMHO is an amazing art but it is even better when you combine it with some other arts. Wing Chun is the MA that Bruce Lee studied as a child.
I had the joy of training under Dan Inosanto I was always impressed with the way he blended so many things together to make it work. Silat btw is a lot of fun.