230 ball anyone?

[brownie]

Been carrying the new LW Champion with 230 ball loads for the last few days.

Anyone carry ball for their 45's? Why if you do?:thumbsup:

Brownie

[ToyotaMan]

I just carry my regular Wolf plinking ammo. It always goes bang, so I haven't even considered not doing it.

[pangris]

I prefer Rangers. Ball has a long and distinguished history, but I don't see a reason NOT to carry Rangers. If they open up great, if not, it will do the job just as well as the ball would.

I've run hundreds of rounds of rangers through my .45s to make sure they run, and they do...

[aaronrkelly]

I used to REQUIRE high-end ammo for my carry guns....had to have it.

Then common sense....and being broke feeding all this expensive ammo thru my gun....caught up to me.

Ball has done the job for many years.....killed alot of people.

I currently use Winchester "Personal Protection" marked white box HPs.....but would have no issues using ball.

In fact in some of my other guns I find it easier to just load them with FMJ then reliability test them with JHP.

[Ak.Hiker]

I like Double Tap 230 ball in my Glock 36 for woods walks in the winter. It hits hard and has good penetration.

[jonathon]

I have 230gr UMC hardball in my 1911 right now, havn't shot it enough with Ranger SXT's. My P220 is loaded with them though :thumbsup:

[PlasticGuy]

I have carried 230 grain ball in my 1911's for the last several years, and always catch a rash of crap for it on here. My reasoning is simple:

1) It's worked well for almost 100 years.
2) The 1911 was designed around it, so it should be most reliable.
3) It's what I practice with, and it's been reliable for 1,000's of rounds.
4) I know exactly what it will and will not penetrate -- no guesswork.

Some people feel the need to tear people down who carry ball. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your choice, I guess, is fine with me. Personally, I'll opt for ultimate reliability. I'd bet that 95% of the guys who pitch crap about needing hollowpoints haven't function tested their pistols with more than a box or two of their carry rounds, and don't rotate them more than once or twice each year. I rotate mine at least once per month, and function test at least 100 rounds each month of my defensive load through my carry gun. That's the real benefit of 230 grain ball.

[pangris]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
I'd bet that 95% of the guys who pitch crap about needing hollowpoints haven't function tested their pistols with more than a box or two of their carry rounds, and don't rotate them more than once or twice each year.

I'll see your 95% and raise you - I'd bet at least 98%...

[LSP972]

One of the reasons I went back to the .45 ACP cartridge earlier this year was a desire to not worry about what was in the gun at any particular time.

I carry a JHP (we have our choice of Golden Saber Bonded or Ranger SXT for issue; I chose the GS bonded) because policy says I must. And I'll probably continue to carry the GS after I retire. But it is comforting to know that good old ball from WallyWorld will do just fine if that's all I have one dark day.

However... unless you have a function issue in your particular pistol, why would you carry ball? Any one of the current "service" JHP bullets will do everything a ball bullet can, and perhaps a bit more.

.

[aaronrkelly]

Originally posted by LSP972

However... unless you have a function issue in your particular pistol, why would you carry ball? Any one of the current "service" JHP bullets will do everything a ball bullet can, and perhaps a bit more.

.

Alot of people have a cash flow issue. Ball ammo is usually quite a bit cheaper then hollowpoints. Thats the only other reason I can come up with.

I would rather have 500 rounds of ball (more to practice with) then 250 rounds of hollowpoints.

[Alaskapopo]

Ball is a very poor choice from the terminal ballistics standpoint. Can it work sure but there are far better choices. The Federal 230 grain HST for example expands to .95 to 1 inch and still penetrates more than 12 inches.

They don't all fall to hardball. I know of one good cop who died after putting 4 230 grain ball rounds into a suicidal gun man who ended up killing him then killing himself with an AR15.

Don't carry ball ammo unless your mandated to by law.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by aaronrkelly
Alot of people have a cash flow issue. Ball ammo is usually quite a bit cheaper then hollowpoints. Thats the only other reason I can come up with.

I would rather have 500 rounds of ball (more to practice with) then 250 rounds of hollowpoints.

Easy solution practice with ball and carry 230 grain JHP's.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
I have carried 230 grain ball in my 1911's for the last several years, and always catch a rash of crap for it on here. My reasoning is simple:

1) It's worked well for almost 100 years.
2) The 1911 was designed around it, so it should be most reliable.
3) It's what I practice with, and it's been reliable for 1,000's of rounds.
4) I know exactly what it will and will not penetrate -- no guesswork.

Some people feel the need to tear people down who carry ball. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your choice, I guess, is fine with me. Personally, I'll opt for ultimate reliability. I'd bet that 95% of the guys who pitch crap about needing hollowpoints haven't function tested their pistols with more than a box or two of their carry rounds, and don't rotate them more than once or twice each year. I rotate mine at least once per month, and function test at least 100 rounds each month of my defensive load through my carry gun. That's the real benefit of 230 grain ball.

You don't need to rotate ammo once a month. Once a year will do once every 6 months is probably best. I have yet to have a problem with duty ammo that has been kept in a pistol for 6 months to a year. Also 100 rounds will tell you if your pistol will not like that load. In fact in my experience if your going to have reliablity problems that are ammo related you will know in the first magazine.

200 rounds is a good standard. But you only need do that once and then shoot your ammo out every 6 months or so.

Ball is simply the least effective bullet design in any caliber. 45 included.
Pat

[PlasticGuy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You don't need to rotate ammo once a month. Once a year will do once every 6 months is probably best....

200 rounds is a good standard. But you only need do that once and then shoot your ammo out every 6 months or so.

Ball is simply the least effective bullet design in any caliber. 45 included.
You get a lot of department issued ammo that most of us don't get. As such, cost isn't much of an issue for you, like it is for most of the rest of us.

I know you don't need to rotate your carry loads every month, but why not? Using ball, I'm never tempted to chamber the same round twice and risk having a cartridge with too short of an OAL. Every practice session of mine starts with me shooting the 8+1 rounds that were carried in my pistol. I know my pistol will work with what I carry in it, and it will work after it's been in my holster that way for an extended period of time. I know because I test it every time I go to the range.

Let's say that you test your pistol with the suggested 200 rounds of carry ammo, and then start carrying it. What if you test it in six months and the first round fires, but the round feeding in from the magazine jams? That would give you a failure rate of 0.5% of every round fired, a larger 4% per mag failure rate with 8 round mags, or a 7.5% failure rate with 15 round mags. I've fired at least 2000 rounds through each of the 1911's that I carry. That means that if I have a failure tomorrow, I have only 1/10 the failure rate that you do. I'm 10x more sure that my carry ammo and mags will work, and that's pretty significant.

And who says that .45 ACP hollowpoints are so much more effective than 230 grain ball? Under what circumstances? Give me a cross torso shot on a large guy, a shot through class or auto body, or a shot that needs to penetrate an arm pointing a gun at me to hit my opponents vitals (as an instructor I'm sure you're familiar with the high ration of hand/arm wounds in gunfights), and you'll have a scenerio where ball has an advantage over hollowpoints. Evan Marshall has given us a valuable tool with his "stopping power" data, but it's not the whole story. There's more to effectiveness than an unobstructed frontal torso hit.

[Lt. Commander]

I have 230gr. TAP in all magazines for everyday carry but for that up coming SHTF day I have 2 cases of 230 ball ready to go.



Scott

[FLIPPER 348]

Originally posted by ToyotaMan
I just carry my regular Wolf plinking ammo. It always goes bang, so I haven't even considered not doing it.


2X

[CanyonMan]

plasticguy, seems to be in a minority here on the ball ammo issue, so i will 'throw in with him, and make it two.'

I do carry 230gr GS, which will act like ball anway most of the time. All the claims of this bullet and that bullet opening up to point this, and point that diameter, is most all taken from geletin test, and doesn't really mean squat to me. Real world statistics are hard to come by, and that is what tells the 'real truth', of what X bullet will do, will not do.

As has already been stated, there is no way of knowing what angle of attack is headed your way, as in hunting, you never know if you have a quartering shot, head on, brodside, or what. When hunting, i use in my handguns, a cast bullet for deep penetration. There is NO expansion what soever, but it does tremendous damage, and creates awsome shock.

Most hollow points clog, and therefore end up like ball anyway.
I am NOT against hollow points..... As i said, i carry sometimes the Rem GS, but they are not going to be shot into a gel block of hog renderings. God forbid, if they were to be used, they would go into clothing, muscle, bone, and air pockets, and organs, and who knows at what angle.

I want something that has 'penetration to the max', and don't give a rats butt about gun rag writers. I do not even read teir rants, they change like the wind with the highest bidder. I know 'from experience', that ball ammo works, it has worked in several wars/engagements, and has proven itself for a very long time.

I think whatever a man uses is fine, frankly, as long as it has the power to 'penetrate well', and he 'practices a good deal' with it.

This is an age old argument that no one will ever win, and i am certainly not trying to win anything, or defend anything, or condemn anything.

Just simply saying, ball is fine, i am 100% confident with it, and am NOT worried about over penetration, my concern is for my life, that is why i carry the .45acp and GS/or Ball ammo, they WILL get where they need to be. If not, why use them. Expansion is merely an extra additive, that is rarely had to begin with. Penetration on the other hand, is something "I cannot do without".


CanyonMan

[Ruggles]

Count me in the ball category, I tend to think it has the absolute best & longest track record for handgun rounds in the world. Good enough for Uncle Sam for decades, Good enough for me.

Now if I am ever attacked by wet phone books or ballistic gelatin then maybe one of those high end JHP will be what I need. :)

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
You get a lot of department issued ammo that most of us don't get. As such, cost isn't much of an issue for you, like it is for most of the rest of us.


And who says that .45 ACP hollowpoints are so much more effective than 230 grain ball? Under what circumstances? Give me a cross torso shot on a large guy, a shot through class or auto body, or a shot that needs to penetrate an arm pointing a gun at me to hit my opponents vitals (as an instructor I'm sure you're familiar with the high ration of hand/arm wounds in gunfights), and you'll have a scenerio where ball has an advantage over hollowpoints. Evan Marshall has given us a valuable tool with his "stopping power" data, but it's not the whole story. There's more to effectiveness than an unobstructed frontal torso hit.

I don't get a lot of free ammo. Just enough to load up my mags after qualifing. (duty) I get one box of practice ammo a month. I reload my own ammo for IDPA and ISPC and for plinking.

Any of the good well designed 45 acp jhp's have plenty of penetration (more than 12 inches) for even the worst cross torso shot. Ball sucks period it leaves a much smaller wound channel than a good JHP. Your better off with a 9mm jhp than you are with 45 ball. Essentally your comparing a .95 caliber bullet to a .45 caliber one. Bigger is better in this case. Frankly carring ball ammo is reckless in the over penetration standpoint and stupid from the terminal performance standpoint.
Pat

[brownie]

Frankly carring ball ammo is reckless in the over penetration standpoint and stupid from the terminal performance standpoint.

Why thank you Pat:hugs:

I don't always carry ball, but I'll carry it often enough knowing its track record if I do my part. I see nary any difference in recklessness between carrying ball and perhaps overpentration [ I assume by that you mean danger to innocents after it exits the BG ], and those who dismally miss with their shots a high percentage of times in SD shootings [ statistically ].

Ball sucks period it leaves a much smaller wound channel than a good JHP.

Actually, the coroners who dig em out report they have a VERY hard time telling the difference between ball and HP by wound channels and damage alone.

Brownie

[CanyonMan]

BY: brownie,

Actually, the coroners who dig em out report they have a VERY hard time telling the difference between ball and HP by wound channels and damage alone.


This is very true.



Alaskapopo,

To say it is 'reckless and stupid', is a slam sir, on the GI's through the years who have used such ammo, and with excellent results.

Again, most JHP's end up looking like ball anyway. Some open up to a tiny degree, I must admit, and that is a plus, but there is just not all that much difference. In the hands of a responsible individual, who knows his weapon, and places his shots where they need to be, in a SD senerio, ball will take down any tuff guys i have seen thus far. "Here, or in the jungle".

The 45acp 1911, was designed to use ball ammo in the first place.

You say..."Ball sucks period it leaves a much smaller wound channel than a good JHP."

Not if that JHP is clogged, which most are...now it is a ball!

You say...."Your better off with a 9mm jhp than you are with 45 ball."

Man, this defies all logic! Like saying i'm better off with a .22cal HP, than a 9mm ball.


Again, this is an argument no one is going to win, and 'i am not trying to either'. Just think you are spitting out some rather 'harsh words', towards a good number of people who have used ball through several wars, and still do today.

Recklessness, and stupidity sir, come in many forms, and when placing it in this particular catagorie, it does not fit, nor apply, in the use of ball ammo. I am far more concerned about the idiot that is reckless with his ways, his handling of his weapon, his mouth, and his bad decisions in a SD, or a combat situation.


CanyonMan

[Candiru]

I've carried ball when I didn't have hollowpoints on hand. That's one of the charms of .45 ACP: If you don't have expanding ammunition, ball ammo isn't as bad an alternative as using ball ammo in a 9mm pistol would be.

That being said, I prefer to carry hollowpoints not so much out of concern for overpenetration or a desire to maximize the size of any wound channel, but because defensive ammo is very accurate, has flash-retardants added to the powder, and is loaded with an eye to reliability and consistency.

[pangris]

Originally posted by CanyonMan

1) To say it is 'reckless and stupid', is a slam sir, on the GI's through the years who have used such ammo, and with excellent results.

2)The 45acp 1911, was designed to use ball ammo in the first place.

3) You say..."Ball sucks period it leaves a much smaller wound channel than a good JHP." Not if that JHP is clogged, which most are...now it is a ball!


CM, you make some good points but...

1. GI's don't get to pick what they carry. The gov't buys cheap and deep.

2. The 1911 was designed as a .38 super. Should we stop using it as a .45? Should we use the original sights? Get rid of the beavertails? Etc, as nauseum.

3. If you use a JHP, and it clogs, same net effect. So your worst case scenario is it performs like ball. So why is this a knock on JHP? That 1/2 the time it turns into ball? I can live with that, since the other 1/2 the time it doesn't.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by CanyonMan
BY: brownie,




This is very true.



Alaskapopo,

To say it is 'reckless and stupid', is a slam sir, on the GI's through the years who have used such ammo, and with excellent results.




CanyonMan

Its not a slam on GI's and lets stick to the topic at hand. GI's would carry JHP's if allowed to I am sure. Also not all GI's have had excellent results with their 45 autos loaded with ball. Most of these are simply second hand war stories. Handguns are used very little by the military generally.

I am not slamming anyone by expressing my opinion that carring ball ammo is reckless from the over penetration standpoint and stupid from the terminal ballistics standpoint. All sides of the stopping power debate from Marshall to Fackler agree that hollowpoints are the best way to go.

Like I said earlier I now of one good cop who may still have been alive if 45 ball had worked. But it did not.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by brownie
[I]

Actually, the coroners who dig em out report they have a VERY hard time telling the difference between ball and HP by wound channels and damage alone.

Brownie

Brownie I mean you no disrespect personally I just totally disagree with your endorsement of ball ammo. I am sure your a fine man. But on this issue were going to have to agree to disagree.

As for jhp's clogging most of the better modern JHP's do not clog anymore. In fact most expand in real shootings to various degrees. What you said may have been true 10 years ago but its not longer the case. And when jhp's do clog they do at least as well as we can expect from ball ammo. In some ways better because they act more like a cookie cutter with their blunt nose.
Pat

[brownie]

Pat,

I didn't nor do take your comments as disrepsect at all. I gave the hug sign in my reply for that reason.

As I've mentioned, I carry JHP's [ ranger t 230's ] most of the time, but just do not feel they are a necessity for the 45 to perform well in SD shootings.

Brownie

[Alaskapopo]

I will agree that shot placement is more important of an issue. I will also agree that 45 ball will work with proper shotplacement. I personally would not trust my life to it when we have so many better choices now.
Stay safe.
Pat

[PlasticGuy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
...Any of the good well designed 45 acp jhp's have plenty of penetration (more than 12 inches) for even the worst cross torso shot. Ball sucks period it leaves a much smaller wound channel than a good JHP. Your better off with a 9mm jhp than you are with 45 ball. Essentally your comparing a .95 caliber bullet to a .45 caliber one. Bigger is better in this case. Frankly carring ball ammo is reckless in the over penetration standpoint and stupid from the terminal performance standpoint.
Pat
That's pretty harsh.

Considering that 12" penetration in gelatin rarely translates into 12" penetration in a body (the body has bones and skin, as it turns out), I'd argue that 12" in gelatin may not always be enough. I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else that they should switch, but my choice has a basis in real world performance. I certainly don't feel it's "stupid".

You keep touting penetration and final expanded diameter to the 100th of an inch in gelatin like that's the only thing that matters. I read what the jello junkies write, and then evaluate a good load on a deer or coyote to see if the real world results back it up. The penetration in gelatin is a best case scenerio for penetration, and real world penetration on any animal is almost always significantly less -- sometimes by as much as 40%. Bones and skin do a lot to limit penetration. Also, the expansion of the bullet doesn't always directly translate into the diameter of the permanent wound. Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Do whatever you want, for whatever reasons you feel are valid. That's just my choice and my reasons for it, stupid or not.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
That's pretty harsh.

Considering that 12" penetration in gelatin rarely translates into 12" penetration in a body (the body has bones and skin, as it turns out), I'd argue that 12" in gelatin may not always be enough. I'm not going to try to convince you or anyone else that they should switch, but my choice has a basis in real world performance. I certainly don't feel it's "stupid".

You keep touting penetration and final expanded diameter to the 100th of an inch in gelatin like that's the only thing that matters. I read what the jello junkies write, and then evaluate a good load on a deer or coyote to see if the real world results back it up. The penetration in gelatin is a best case scenerio for penetration, and real world penetration on any animal is almost always significantly less -- sometimes by as much as 40%. Bones and skin to a lot to limit penetration. Also, the expansion of the bullet doesn't always directly translate into the diameter of the permanent wound. Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Do whatever you want, for whatever reasons you feel are valid. That's just my choice and my reasons for it, stupid or not.

Actually bullets tend to penetrate more in actual shootings than in gelatin. Gelatine is a muscle tissue simulant. The body is not made of 100% muscle. Muscle is more dense and harder to get through. Bones deflect ball more easily than JHP's that tend to dig in and keep going.

Again the greatest minds on the topic of handgun terminal ballistics all agree that jhp's are the way to go. They argue a bit over which jhp is the best. But they all agree that JHP's are the way to go in service calibers. 12 inches is also the established minimum penetration figure. I would say thats more than enough considering the average human male is 9.5 inches thick from front to back.

Your certainly entitled to disagree with me. But I am sticking by my opinion that carring ball ammo is reckless and a stupid choice. I am not saying your stupid. But I feel that choice is stupid. Smart people make bad choices all the time.
Pat

[PlasticGuy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
...I am sticking by my opinion that carring ball ammo is reckless and a stupid choice. I am not saying your stupid. But I feel that choice is stupid. Smart people make bad choices all the time.
Pat
The more experience that I've gained in life, the more I've seen that every tool has its task, and every opinion that is based on fact has some merit -- whether I agree with it or not. Apparently your life experience has been different than mine. I'll not insult you or your opinions, and just move along.

[pangris]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
I'll not insult you or your opinions, and just move along.

Here since July 2000, and this guy STILL doesn't get how the place works...

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
The more experience that I've gained in life, the more I've seen that every tool has its task, and every opinion that is based on fact has some merit -- whether I agree with it or not. Apparently your life experience has been different than mine. I'll not insult you or your opinions, and just move along.

I have no problem if you insult my opinions. Thats what makes a good discussion or debate. If we all agreed what fun would that be. I agree we should not insult people personally.
Pat

[CanyonMan]

Originally posted by pangris
CM, you make some good points but...

1. GI's don't get to pick what they carry. The gov't buys cheap and deep.

2. The 1911 was designed as a .38 super. Should we stop using it as a .45? Should we use the original sights? Get rid of the beavertails? Etc, as nauseum.

3. If you use a JHP, and it clogs, same net effect. So your worst case scenario is it performs like ball. So why is this a knock on JHP? That 1/2 the time it turns into ball? I can live with that, since the other 1/2 the time it doesn't.


Well sir, i personally don't worry about the sights, the beavertail, etc. This is a conceal carry gun, and meant for close up and personal, not a beauty pagant. I have done real well for a very long time with a stock GI type 1911. I shoot it as well as i do with the one i do own , that has the bells and whistles, i did not need them, nor night sights either.

I do use JHP's as i clearly stated, but as i said, that does not make a man stupid or irresponsible, because he carrys ball ammo in 45acp.

I am not, and did not knock JHP's, just don't see much difference.
Use what you want to, and i'll do the same.


CanyonMan

[CanyonMan]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Its not a slam on GI's and lets stick to the topic at hand. GI's would carry JHP's if allowed to I am sure. Also not all GI's have had excellent results with their 45 autos loaded with ball. Most of these are simply second hand war stories. Handguns are used very little by the military generally.

I am not slamming anyone by expressing my opinion that carring ball ammo is reckless from the over penetration standpoint and stupid from the terminal ballistics standpoint. All sides of the stopping power debate from Marshall to Fackler agree that hollowpoints are the best way to go.

Like I said earlier I now of one good cop who may still have been alive if 45 ball had worked. But it did not.
Pat



Pat, you seem to have the answers, (some are wrong, one or two is correct), so i will bow out of this one, and you other boys can have at it...


Good luck to ya!


CanyonMan

[RickJZ]

I always use ball ammo in my 1911

[El_Ron1]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy

I'd bet that 95% of the guys who pitch crap about needing hollowpoints haven't function tested their pistols with more than a <s>box</s> mag or two of their carry rounds, and don't rotate them more than once or twice each year. More the way I figure it...A mag or two for most...

I really see nothing wrong with an annual ammo rotation depending on carry methods and needs for many people. Modern duty ammo is pretty tough. I retire it after a summer of intense desert heat carry, but all the rounds have always performed fine when used at the range. Still, it's a cheap proactive measure. :beer:

[sundance43.5]

Originally posted by pangris
CM, you make some good points but...

2. The 1911 was designed as a .38 super. Should we stop using it as a .45?

Where did you get this info? .38 Super didn't arrive on scene until the 20's or 30's. The original chambering for the 1911 was .45 ACP.

[Jim in MI]

I carry ball in my 45ACP 1911's. I recently bought some Doubletap 230gr JTC but have only put 50 rounds through my gun (well, one of my 6 1911's). I then put heavier recoil spring in that gun and haven't been back to the range yet...deer season and all that. I do shoot thousands of rounds a year, and order 45 ball a couple of cases at a time.

I bought the JTC because I've read they penetrate more than ball, so you can tell I'm not worried about penetration. Why? Well, what's the 4th Rule?

In 10mm I carry Doubletap 180 grain match FMJ which is a JTC. I have some Doubletap 200 grain JTC also, which is touted as a hunting bullet due to its penetration.

Boys and girls, ladies and gents, after shot placement, its penetration that kills. Elephant, hippo, rhino, buffalo hunters use .375, .416, .423, .458 solid FMJ to kill these brutes because the bullets penetrate, NOT expands.

Deepest penetration is achieved with moderate velocities (not ultra high) and long for caliber bullets. Soft points or hollowpoint opening up slow penetration, except in the Barnes design as the petals cut through tissue.

And as far as the greatest minds go, doctors (and I'm one of them) think in terms of 2 different bullet wounds when doing surgery 1. pistol wound (slow) 2. rifle wound (fast). Doctors don't go. 'uh oh, this guy was shot with a hollow point, better get a few extra units of blood'. Pistol wounds look like pistol wounds, regardless, because all pistol bullets are 'slow'. Bones fractures by hits with pistols look completely different than bones hit by rifle bullets. Exit wounds look completely different. You guys have gutted out deer hit by rifles, remember what the lungs looked like?

So, if your gonna be stupid enough to shoot something 2 legged or 4 with a pistol, you want a big diameter bullet that penetrates, and by all means hit vitals or CNS. I would be thrilled if my COM shot (God forbid I ever have to) penetrated to the spinal cord.

In closing, whats Rule #4.

[lethal tupperwa]

Alvin York

Walter Walsh

and some other dead guy named Jeff Cooper who in his last column said something about using ball until all the stock piles were gone then switching to truncated cone.

[isuzu]

Originally posted by sundance43.5
Where did you get this info? .38 Super didn't arrive on scene until the 20's or 30's. The original chambering for the 1911 was .45 ACP.

True!

[pangris]

Originally posted by sundance43.5
Where did you get this info? .38 Super didn't arrive on scene until the 20's or 30's. The original chambering for the 1911 was .45 ACP.

It wasn't the .38 super as known in the 20's, but a variant of a 38 automatic round. The 38 super/9 largo/9x23 concept predates the 1911.

JMB designed the .45 ACP for another pistol, the 1905. Upon the Army wanting a .45 bore, he adapted the 1911 for the .45 ACP.

http://www.m1911.org/history.htm

"In the mean time, J. Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar to contemporary .38 Super (dimension-wise). When the Army announced its interest in a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this handgun to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design (with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet), and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation."

[Candiru]

Originally posted by sundance43.5
Where did you get this info? .38 Super didn't arrive on scene until the 20's or 30's. The original chambering for the 1911 was .45 ACP.

Sort of. I think what the first guy meant was that Browning wanted to chamber the gun in .38 ACP, which has the same case length as .38 Super, but is much more mildly loaded. The Army insisted on a 45 caliber bullet, though, so Browning obliged by designing the gun around a 200-grain .45 bullet. When a heavier bullet was demanded, he upped it to 230 grains.

[sundance43.5]

Originally posted by Candiru
Sort of. I think what the first guy meant was that Browning wanted to chamber the gun in .38 ACP, which has the same case length as .38 Super, but is much more mildly loaded. The Army insisted on a 45 caliber bullet, though, so Browning obliged by designing the gun around a 200-grain .45 bullet. When a heavier bullet was demanded, he upped it to 230 grains.


Interesting. Pangris, I stand half-corrected.

[6285108]

See here still relevant today
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

1. Shot placement
2. Penetration
3. Expansion

In that order

[spober]

ball is cheap reliable ammo.if 45 cal hole aint big enough.....what is?:banana:

[6285108]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo

Like I said earlier I now of one good cop who may still have been alive if 45 ball had worked. But it did not. Pat

He still may have died if even if JHP's were the bullets that were used...you don't know to any degree of certainty how JHP usage would have effected the ultimate outcome, it may make you feel better to think otherwise but that's about it.

Shot Placement
Penetration
Expansion


Without #1 the other two are hoping to get the job done

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by 6285108
He still may have died if even if JHP's were the bullets that were used...you don't know to any degree of certainty how JHP usage would have effected the ultimate outcome, it may make you feel better to think otherwise but that's about it.

Shot Placement
Penetration
Expansion


Without #1 the other two are hoping to get the job done
Your right it may not have made a difference. But it would have created more damage and gave him a better chance. Ball sucks and is the most ineffective load in any service caliber (9mm and up) thats a fact no one can dispute.
Pat

[Mail Clerk]

Originally posted by brownie
Been carrying the new LW Champion with 230 ball loads for the last few days.

Anyone carry ball for their 45's? Why if you do?:thumbsup:

Brownie


Brownie,

Ball ammo has good percentage points of putting the guy down so that's why I usually stoke mine with ball.


Mail Clerk

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by Mail Clerk
Brownie,

Ball ammo has good percentage points of putting the guy down so that's why I usually stoke mine with ball.


Mail Clerk

Well if the only one I know putting out percentage figures is Evan Marshall and according to his work 45 ball is good for about 65% one shot stops compared to 96% with the best JHP in 45 auto.
Pat

[brownie]

"Your right it may not have made a difference. But it would have created more damage and gave him a better chance."

Pat, As I've mentioned before:

Actually, the coroners who dig em out report they have a VERY hard time telling the difference between ball and HP by wound channels and damage alone.

The coroners at autopsy can not tell the difference based on "damage" between hardball and HP's and until they find the bullet, they have no clue most of the time what the bullet started out as [ either ball or some HP ].

There's a lot of doubt, based on coroners findings and reports, that HP's create all that much more damage, if any.

Brownie

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by brownie
"Your right it may not have made a difference. But it would have created more damage and gave him a better chance."

Pat, As I've mentioned before:

Actually, the coroners who dig em out report they have a VERY hard time telling the difference between ball and HP by wound channels and damage alone.

The coroners at autopsy can not tell the difference based on "damage" between hardball and HP's and until they find the bullet, they have no clue most of the time what the bullet started out as [ either ball or some HP ].

There's a lot of doubt, based on coroners findings and reports, that HP's create all that much more damage, if any.

Brownie

Its hard to tell when your disecting a bloody corpse. But gelatin tells the story.
It defies common sence to belive a bullet that is .452 would do as much damage as one that is .95
Pat

[CanyonMan]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Its hard to tell when your disecting a bloody corpse. But gelatin tells the story.
It defies common sence to belive a bullet that is .452 would do as much damage as one that is .95
Pat



Man i was not going to get back into this, until now. This is absolutely hilarious. Look at your statment here. "It's hard to tell in a bloody corpse"!

Good lands man, when i shoot an elk or deer with a hard cast handgun bullet, that has NO mushroom ability at 21BHN, and upon opening up said animal, (up to my elbows in blood by the way), i see broken bones, bone spinters, blown up lungs, or exploded heart and other organs that look like mush....At this point, i am well aware something has happened!

To say they have a hard time to tell in a corpse, but a gelaten block "proves it all" (is what your saying), is both untrue, and "this does defy common sence."

Come out to the ranch here, and we will put a hog down for ya, with a hollow point, and one with a Cast bullet, or FMJ. Again, as i said before, YES, it is great when the JHP does open "a tad", and some do, and i am NOT against them, but you need to SEE what the cast bullet will do 'in comparison'. Surgeons are not pulling bullets out of gelatin blocks Pat, they are digging them out of real live (or dead ) people, with bone and muscle, and fiber, and lots of other tissue not found in a phone book, or a block of hog renderings.

One of my brothers has the title of Male nurse, works in the ER, they sure can tell in 'this ER', if organs and rib bones, and such are torn up/damaged, when they go in. And most of these wonder bullets are not the classic mushroom that you find in a water jug, or a block of gel.

Again, i AM NOT waging a war, or taking a stand for, or against, ball ammo, or JHP's. BOTH have a place in SD, as i said, in the street or in the 'jungle.'

I do carry GS's or XTP's,... The reason? Because they "might expand a tad," (and i hope that is all), because with out penetration, and reaching the organs and or spine, that are vital to do the damage needed, then why to i want a super expanding bullet that does not get there?

So, I use the GS's, or XTP's, sometimes ball, because they penetrate like the dickens, and have "maybe" a tad of expansion (other than the ball), but not so much as to slow them down from plowing through everything. Sometimes, i grab the mag with the ball ammo in my .45, because it leaves a very big hole to bleed from, and does a good deal of damage as well, as many years have proven.

JHP's or ball, that is each mans choice, and should be considerd on the local law, the area they live in, E.G. is it cold, hot, do folks mostly wear t-shirts or heavy layers of clothes, do i want a deep penetrating bullet, or one that opens upon impact and with the latter, never reach the vitals.

For me, I live in W. TX. Hotter than Hell most of the year. But i am a penetration freak, and want to know that i got 'enough stuff' to bust bones, and still do nasty damage, and 'reach the vitals that need reaching,' EVEN IF i am falling down while shooting and make a lousy hit, through the arm, into the side, through the ribs, and still need to hit the vital organs to do any good. Again, this is why i use the Sabers, XTP's or Ball, in that order. I KNOW they will accomplish this, and i 'KNOW' what the Ball does on charging enemies. As for "over penetration," while well aware of it, it is not a fear to me. MISSING is a bigger concern, for me, and those around me.

Well, i just chimed in again, against my early morning want to's, because "gelatin" IS NOT a 'tell all' for bullet performance.

Granted, it is about all they got, unless they do use a hog, or goat, but to say, 'looky here at all this expansion in the gel block' .....
#1 I am not going to get all that expansion after going through a leather jaket, a sweater, and shirt, and then hitting bone, and muscle and grissle etc. #2. If i did, it would never reach the vital organs needed to put down the BG.

So, again, good luck to ya.
Try out your favorite bullet in a hog, or elk, or deer, then use it, or discard it.

BTW, XTP's are good also, because they hardly ever expand in the 'real world', and act much like ball. That is why a good many pistol hunters use them, they penetrate like heck. A good carry round, as are the Golden Sabers. But it has been told here over and over, most all the JHP's we use, end up looking like ball, to some degree at least, when removed from a human body. There is no magic out there Hoss. ;)


CanyonMan

[6285108]

Originally posted by CanyonMan
But it has been told here over and over, most all the JHP's we use, end up looking like ball, to some degree at least, when removed from a human body. There is no magic out there Hoss. ;)


CanyonMan

I shoot plenty of deer real close up after they've been hit by a car and need help going to the light and let me tell you I've seen some funny looking expanded and deformed (after hitting bone) JHP's. Some don't even exit 10" of deer due to hitting rib bones and ending up near the skin on the other side. Due my interest in ballistics I've recovered quite a few bullets after euthanizing bambie.
We don't use ball so I don't have any experience but imagine the deer would not know the difference :animlol:

[MrMurphy]

I am on active duty, and would love to get 9mm JHP instead of ball (or .45 JHP instead of FMJ).

As a civilian I carried .45 Hydrashoks because they have a good street record. As a news photog I saw a bunch of people get shot. Quite a few with ball ammo,and most went straight through the guy they hit. In one case, 9mm FMJ went through the guy's leg, car seat, car bottom (70s Caddy, not a lightweight car) and into the ground so deep it almost wasn't recovered, through a blacktop street.

Overpenetration is definitely an issue with civilian self defense, and anything that will make a bigger wound much of the time, and lessen the chance of overpenetration is a good thing to me.

Another FMJ kill i saw (after the fact) a guy was hit twice center mass with either a 9mm or .380 FMJ in the heart/lungs (for a banger, very good shooting), the rounds went into the house behind him and still penetrated a wall I believe.

On the other side, cop shot a burglar at muzzle contact distance twice with a .40 JHP and the rounds dropped him in his tracks (temporarily...shock kicked in and he started fighting back on the ground as they cuffed him) the rounds didn't exit the body though. FMJ almost certainly would have.

In the military role we're stuck with FMJ, not worried as much about overpenetration, we want as many holes in the bad guy as possible, we're not worried about who's behind him.

[Short Cut]

I'll carry ball in my second backup mag. I figure if I've gone through two mags of JHPs, the greater penetration of ball may be useful to get through marginal cover. It also gives me the ability to pull that mag first if I think that ball may be advantageous.

[brownie]

MrMurphy;

Thanks for the job you are doing for all of us out there. Stay safe, and up and running.

[happyguy]

Overpenetration with .45 acp FMJ is much less of an issue than it is with most other calibers.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually bullets tend to penetrate more in actual shootings than in gelatin. Gelatine is a muscle tissue simulant. The body is not made of 100% muscle. Muscle is more dense and harder to get through. Bones deflect ball more easily than JHP's that tend to dig in and keep going.

Again the greatest minds on the topic of handgun terminal ballistics all agree that jhp's are the way to go. They argue a bit over which jhp is the best. But they all agree that JHP's are the way to go in service calibers. 12 inches is also the established minimum penetration figure. I would say thats more than enough considering the average human male is 9.5 inches thick from front to back.

Your certainly entitled to disagree with me. But I am sticking by my opinion that carring ball ammo is reckless and a stupid choice. I am not saying your stupid. But I feel that choice is stupid. Smart people make bad choices all the time.
Pat

A bullet that expands and penetrates 14 inches of gelatin is very unlikely to penetrate 14 inches of solid muscle tissue. Think about it for a moment.

If your hollow point will penetrate 14 inches of solid muscle, it will overpenetrate almost every time from a normal adult torso. Just how dense do you think lung tissue is? Yet the majority of torso hits remain in the body. How do you explain that?

The whole gelatin thing is fun but really proves nothing.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[ofcsolo]

FMJ or JHP. When the fight starts the only ammo that counts is the ammo thats in your gun. Personally I wouldn't want to get hit with .45 anything.;)

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
I have carried 230 grain ball in my 1911's for the last several years, and always catch a rash of crap for it on here. My reasoning is simple:

1) It's worked well for almost 100 years.
2) The 1911 was designed around it, so it should be most reliable.
3) It's what I practice with, and it's been reliable for 1,000's of rounds.
4) I know exactly what it will and will not penetrate -- no guesswork.

Some people feel the need to tear people down who carry ball. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself and your choice, I guess, is fine with me. Personally, I'll opt for ultimate reliability. I'd bet that 95% of the guys who pitch crap about needing hollowpoints haven't function tested their pistols with more than a box or two of their carry rounds, and don't rotate them more than once or twice each year. I rotate mine at least once per month, and function test at least 100 rounds each month of my defensive load through my carry gun. That's the real benefit of 230 grain ball.

Actually ball has worked the worst of any round in the caliber for the last 100 years. I would not say being the worst is working well.

Modern 1911's will feed jhp's just fine. If you have one that will not get it fixed or get a new gun.

As for penetation good modern JHP's are less likely to glance off bone and richochet on hard targets.

Also you don't need to constantly rotate your ammo. Rotating your ammo twice a year is just fine. Heck even once a year is fine. You don't have to do it once per month. Ammo will last many years unless your chambering the same round over and over again.

Also 100 to 200 rounds is plenty to function check your pistol with. Usually if there if there is going to be a problem you will see it well before 100 rounds are put down range.

Jhp's put larger holes in people. They are the best choice. Ball is a very poor choice. http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/IM000882.jpg
Any questions?
pat

[PlasticGuy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually ball has worked the worst of any round in the caliber for the last 100 years. I would not say being the worst is working well...

Any questions?
Yeah, I have a question. What's your evidence to support the statement that 230 grain ball works the worst of any other .45 ACP load? Are we just taking Marshall's word as gospel these days, or do you have other evidence to back that up?

Once you start adding skin and bone to your gelatin (looks more like a human body at that point), penetration drops to a more reasonable level with ball and to a questionable level with some hollowpoints. Ever looked at any of these tests?

[freepatriot]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Jhp's put larger holes in people. They are the best choice. Ball is a very poor choice.
Any questions?
pat


Nice pic.


Do you think larger holes are more important than deep holes?

Thx.

[pangris]

Jeez...

Ball, HP, whatever - hit them and go from there.

As Scott just mentioned, depth might matter more than width.

Every situation is different, and in any given fight you might wish you had the other.

I carry Win Rangers or Corbon Pow'rball - I agree expansion is good - but I think it is a LOT less important that the fundamental skills necessary to win a fight in the first place.

[deputy tom]

I shoot ball for training/practice but prefer Golden Saber 230 gr. HP for carry.They feed in most 1911's that choke on other brands of HP ammo,at least in my experience.YMMV.tom.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by PlasticGuy
Yeah, I have a question. What's your evidence to support the statement that 230 grain ball works the worst of any other .45 ACP load? Are we just taking Marshall's word as gospel these days, or do you have other evidence to back that up?

Once you start adding skin and bone to your gelatin (looks more like a human body at that point), penetration drops to a more reasonable level with ball and to a questionable level with some hollowpoints. Ever looked at any of these tests?

Its not only Marshall who recommends JHP's in the 45 auto. His nemisis Dr. Fackler does as well. In addition the IWBA did, Dr. Roberts. In fact nearly every respected authority on the subject of handgun wound ballistics recommends a quality JHP design over ball ammo.
pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by scottauld
Nice pic.


Do you think larger holes are more important than deep holes?

Thx.

It depends on if the holes are at least 12 inches deep. Once 12 inches of penetration is met then expansion becomes the primary goal.
Pat

[cjlandry]

Our military has used ball ammo for generations.

Back when the finest military weapons were loaded from the muzzle, and were low velocity (compared with modern rifles) they were taking out enemy troops just fine.

When Samuel Colt "made 'em equal", there were no hollowpoints.

I carried ball ammo in a lot of pistols over the years, simply because HP ammo was a toss-up. It may feed, it may jam. Ball was always reliable in the cheap pistols I carried because I couldn't afford better concealable handguns.

Today, my 1911 is loaded with Hornady TAP ammo, and I had to do some minor scratching on the feed ramp to get it to feed reliably without making that ramp too slick for the proper function of the pistol.

IMO, if your gun will feed a quality hollow-point round, and you can afford to thoroughly test it with, and feed it that quality hollow-point round, you should use it.

Otherwise, you should go with what works for you. FMJ or "Ball" rounds will not leave your assailant laughing at you because his wound channel is not big enough, no matter where you put the bullet.

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Its hard to tell when your disecting a bloody corpse. But gelatin tells the story.
It defies common sence to belive a bullet that is .452 would do as much damage as one that is .95
Pat

This would be like hearing a traffic investigator saying, "These victims aren't dead. This car has side impact airbags and recieved a 5 star crash rating in government and insurance industry testing."

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[DoubleDog]

I carry ball in my 1911, and I carry hydra-shocks in G-30...

I just feel more comfotable with ball in my 1911...Probably irrational, as it feeds HP's, but there ya ahve it...

DD~

[freepatriot]

here's my solution to the $$$ problem of testing expensive ammo:

Load up a few hundred homemade Golden Sabers that fly at the same speed as factory stuff. Shoot that in the 1911 until you're sure it will work. Then after a few hundred rounds of the homeemade GS's work, put another couple magazines of the factory stuff through just to be sure.

Then carry the factory Sabers.

If the gun will eat all the homemade GS's and a few mags of factory, then I suppose it is ready to carry it.

here are the homemade Golden Sabers:



http://freepatriot.com/imagewarehouse/goldensabers.jpg

[happyguy]

Originally posted by brownie
Been carrying the new LW Champion with 230 ball loads for the last few days.

Anyone carry ball for their 45's? Why if you do?:thumbsup:

Brownie

I see that this thread has degenerated into the predictable JHP versus FMJ and the same old arguments have arisen, and the condescension of certain Alaskans is thick enough to cut with a knife.

The question should not be, which is better? The question should be, is FMJ sufficient? It is.

This from an article written by Chuck Taylor about his experience with FMJ in the real world.

"The claim that it's over-penetrative nearly always comes from the assumption that since its military counterpart, the 9mm, is in fact very over-penetrative with FMJ bullets, it must be, too. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. With its nominal velocity of 850 feet per second (fps) +/- 10 fps, 230-grain ball expends nearly all of its energy in the target and if it exits at all, is normally pretty well spent.

I've used it on five different occasions, (On how many occasions have you used it, pat, or anything else for that matter?)finding it to be entirely satisfactory as long as I did my job as a marksman and put the bullet(s) where they belonged. In each case the adversary was immediately neutralized, and in only one case did the bullet ever exit. It was fully spent, however, and was found lying on the floor behind my assailant. ( So much for the overpenetration myth)

Stopping power? In all five instances, the target began to collapse with the first hit, falling so quickly that a second shot wasn't even possible. How much better does it better than that?"

Oops I almost forgot, ball overpenetrates and leaves a small wound track in gelatin. Boy am I glad I remembered that before I loaded any magazines with it!

(Boldface emphasis is mine)

Add to that the experiences of Sgt Alvin York and many many other servicemen and civilians and it's obvious that ball in this caliber is not a bad choice.

.45 acp FMJ will not make up for poor marksmanship, but neither will buck a round hollowpoints.

I sometimes carry ball, despite the expert advice of our brother in the frozen wasteland to the north, but I wouldn't carry it in any other caliber.

I think you'll find that nearly every case in which .45 acp, whether FMJ or JHP, doesn't get the job done, the failure is due to some combination of poor attitude, tactics, and/or marksmanship.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I will agree that shot placement is more important of an issue. I will also agree that 45 ball will work with proper shotplacement.

And by extension, does this mean that JHP's work without proper shot placement?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[nrmcolt]

Someone say "Ball"?
I do...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/nrmcolt/Obetspix174.jpg
230gr Armscor FMJ in my Colt NRM and 115gr Winchester JHP in my P-35, go figure:tongueout: :supergrin:



:beer:

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Ball sucks and is the most ineffective load in any service caliber (9mm and up) thats a fact no one can dispute.
Pat

This is where you have just announced to us all that you have made up your mind and anyone who brings new facts or different real world experience to the table is just wasting their time.

There are a lot of knowledgable and experienced people out there that do dispute your facts.

I can just picture you sitting behind your computer with your hands over your ears, "Lala, lala, lala, I can't hear you, lala, lala!":rofl: :laughabove: :animlol: :upeyes:

Please don't report me. Just because I think your arguments are baseless and stupid doesn't mean that I don't hold you in high regard. :hugs:


Regards,
Happyguy :)

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Ball is a very poor choice from the terminal ballistics standpoint. Can it work sure but there are far better choices. The Federal 230 grain HST for example expands to .95 to 1 inch and still penetrates more than 12 inches.

They don't all fall to hardball. I know of one good cop who died after putting 4 230 grain ball rounds into a suicidal gun man who ended up killing him then killing himself with an AR15.

Don't carry ball ammo unless your mandated to by law.

Pat

Yet when you post about any other cop that dies in a gunfight, you always seem to find a flaw in their tactics. It's never a failure of the ammo.

I think you are being intellectually dishonest or you are letting your emotions cloud your ability to reason.

In my opinion it was probably poor tactics and insufficient marksmanship on the part of the officer along with a determined attitude on the part of his assailant that was responsible for the officer's death.

And you know what? Sometimes you can have the best equipment, the best training, do everything right, and still have bad things happen to you. It sucks but that's just the way it is.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[katana8869]

I think one of the best attributes of a .45 is that it really doesn't matter what you put in it. Whatever is lying around will do just fine.

My .45's are loaded with WWB 230 JHP for that reason. If it expands... great. Otherwise, I'm not losing sleep over it. I don't see any point in paying the extra $$$ for the designer stuff. I do keep a box of Golden Saber 185gr around but again, not out of any real sense of need. After I cycle it through I doubt if I will bother replacing it. (Come to think of it, I might burn it through my new G30 today! :supergrin: )

In my 9mm's on the other hand, I have spent countless hours reading and comparing because I know that 9mm ball ain't that great and bullet selection really is a key consideration when carrying a 9mm.

I don't think that the .45 is the end all of handgun calibers, but it has a solid reputation no matter what is launched from it.

My .02 ;)

[Blitzer]

Originally posted by brownie
Been carrying the new LW Champion with 230 ball loads for the last few days.

Anyone carry ball for their 45's? Why if you do?:thumbsup:

Brownie

JAMBOG.

Old topic here on GT.

Ball ammo will overpenatrate, read pass through a perp, and there is a very good possibility of hitting an innocent on the other side of the offender.

:shocked: :sad:

[Blitzer]

Originally posted by cjlandry
Our military has used ball ammo for generations...


Due to the USA's agreement with a treaty but not our signing of it.

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
It depends on if the holes are at least 12 inches deep. Once 12 inches of penetration is met then expansion becomes the primary goal.
Pat

If I'm not mistaken, the FBI Ballistic Workshop determined that 12 inches was the minimum amount of penetration desired. They also came up with the ideal amount of penetration, which was considerably more. Care to guess what that number is?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

[pangris]

Originally posted by Blitzer
JAMBOG.

Old topic here on GT.

Ball ammo will overpenatrate, read pass through a perp, and there is a very good possibility of hitting an innocent on the other side of the offender.

:shocked: :sad:

80%+ of the shots fired in fights miss. Those pass through air and hit things.

By the "other targets" logic, lets use less deadly ammo b/c there is an 80% chance we'll hit something other than the intended target.

While ball might pass through, that is the last consideration for a variety of reasons.

[1991]

.

[1911Tuner]

Watchin' this one. It's been done, and the responses are pretty much the same no matter who or where it's done.

Pat is tellin' the straight up truth. The hollowpoint will be more effective than ball...even if it doesn't expand...because of the flat striking surface and slightly higher velocities typically found with
230-grain hollowpoints. If it expands, so much the better.

That said...For anyone to state flatly that .45 hardball is a dismal performer suggests that they haven't seen what it'll do to a human body at close range. It ain't pretty.

I know that there are horror stories relating to certain individuals taking multiple solid torso hits and showing little or no immediate effect...but in those cases, the result would have likely been the same regardless of what they were hit with...up to and including
a 12 gauge slug.

Let us not become too consumed with talk of energy transfer and tissue disruption. At handgun velocities, the major player is rapid blood loss or CNS disconnection...a brain or spinal cord impact. Striking bone helps a lot, but can't be counted on for instant neutralization of an attacker.

Bullet placement is the key. Only when impact velocities get into the 2,000 fps category can we begin to factor in shock resulting from cavitation and temporary wound channels. An expanded hollowpoint simply allows us to be a little off the mark, and provide an increased chance of cutting or disrupting a major blood vessel.
If a .45 slug expands to .100 caliber, the fudge factor is .025 inch per side with a sharper cutting edge.

For the record...I carry hardball or the 230-grain truncated cone FMJFP.

[Black_Talon]

Originally posted by 1911Tuner


For the record...I carry hardball or the 230-grain truncated cone FMJFP.

And where, pray tell, to you find these truncated cone FPs as loaded rounds?

[Ak.Hiker]

I get mine from Double Tap. They load the Hornady 230 Flat Point.

[cjlandry]

Let's not forget lungs and bronchial passages. Get those filling with blood and someone is going down pretty fast. You can't attack very well when all you can do is gag and cough your way to demise.

I mention it because it almost cost my mother her life. And that was a simple .38 Special lead ball. She still has serious complications from that wound, 30 years later.

[Short Cut]

Originally posted by Black_Talon
And where, pray tell, to you find these truncated cone FPs as loaded rounds?

I think PMC sells them.

[1911Tuner]

Originally posted by Black_Talon
And where, pray tell, to you find these truncated cone FPs as loaded rounds?

I've got a good supply of the Hornady Frontier line that I bought and stored many years ago...almost 2500 rounds of it left. Still goes bang...Still clocks about 850 fps...and pretty accurate in all my pistols.

I believe that PMC is available, but all that I've seen has the 185-grain bullet. Still not a bad choice, but I don't know what the velocities are, since I haven't chronographed any of it.