View Full Version : Online AR-15 "build it yourself" class - a fighting AR...
Greetings all -
In the tradition of the 1911Patriot Online Class (http://www.1911patriotcop.us/home.htm) , Bill Zollo is going to offer an AR-15 class.
The 1911 class was reviewed HERE in American Handgunner (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_174_29/ai_n9474540).
This class is centered around building a fighting/training gun…
Some background -
I took my first rifle class at Thunder Ranch a few years ago. I brought an M1A believing that as a big, strong young man I could handle the 10 lb rifle. It is only two or three pounds heavier than most of the AR’s out there. Two hours into the class, I was crying like a little girl on the inside. Two days later, I wanted to buy every grunt that had hauled one around in a war a case of beer.
A year later my wife and I went to Tiger McKee’s school, Shootrite, for a tutorial. We got the tour of his safe, and he handed me an AR that I thought must be a toy. It weighs 5 lbs 9 oz. After learning about it, I built a very similar gun that weighed in under 6 lbs. I’ve since used it in several training classes with no fatigue.
In February of 2006, I introduced Bill Zollo to Tiger Mckee. Bill is one of the instructors of the online “Patriot” classes where you learn to build a 1911 from scratch. Bill told me he was thinking about doing the same thing for the AR-15. Tiger had mentioned that a number of his students wanted a rifle like his but there was nothing available off the shelf. After putting heads together, the Online AR-15 class and Shootrite Edition rifle has been born.
I have no affiliation with the class other than knowing and introducing Tiger and Bill. I’ll be taking the class myself, building a couple rifles for my sons.
The basic format –
A1 stock and upper, slickside, 16” pencil barrel, no frills… this is a lightweight bullet launching platform. This is an exercise in simplicity. The more on the gun, the more that can go wrong, period. The fewer moving (or God forbid electronic) parts, the less there is to fail.
Edited to add - due to the interest in flat tops for increased flexibilty, they will be offered as a option...
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7078079/213626179.jpg
Basic philosophy of the rifle…
Half the reason for the focus on weight is, as Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch says, “You’re going to carry it a hell of a lot more than you’re going to shoot it.” The other half the reason is that most of the stuff on rifles today is, to be blunt, less than necessary go fast looking gear sold to us by marketing bastards whose sole goal in life is to convince us that we need all the extra stuff to be tactical, accurate, etc etc. In reality, Tigers rifle and my own can shoot 1.5” at 100 yards, which is more accurate than necessary for a battle rifle – and more accurate than most shooters as well. This rifle is going to be built from top quality parts, each individually and purposefully selected to make the best gun possible.
The barrel – 16” lightweight, 1/9 twist. Easy to maneuver, can use bullets from 55-69 grs.
The receiver – A1 slickside, current Fulton Armory production. Tiger points out that the 800 yard sights on the A2 are questionable at best since the AR isn’t very terminally effective past 200 yards, and that confrontations beyond the 300 yards the gun was originally designed for are all but non-existent anyway.
Why no forward assist? To quote Tiger directly - “The original A1 upper also lacks the forward assist, a feature deemed unnecessary by some that eventually became a standard feature on the rifle. So, you ask, how do you seat the bolt without the forward assist? That half-moon cutout on the right side of the bolt carrier is the original bolt closure device. The operator simply places a finger in this cutout and presses the bolt carrier forward. If finger pressure doesn’t seat the bolt then you probably have a faulty round of ammo or the chamber is too tight due to powder residue or some other foreign matter. Regardless of the cause if you force the issue by hammering on the forward assist it can jam the weapon. This would be a “bad thing” in the middle of a fight.”
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7078079/213626178.jpg
Bolt – Bill is testing a number of units, but “quality is job one”… it will be the best of the best.
Buttstock – The A1 is 5/8” shorter than the A2. I had always used A2 stocks since I’m 6’2” and have monkey arms. I was amazed at how well the A1 fit me, and how well I shot a rifle equipped as such. It also puts the balance of the rifle further back, improving the feel.
The end result is a rifle that snaps to the shoulder, easily transitions from target to target, and generally feels great.
There are a number of reliability tweaks – my rifle has never failed, and to the best of my knowledge neither has Tiger’s.
This is not to say that all the whiz bang stuff can’t serve some specific purpose, just that this rifle will do the job if you do yours. Tiger cites Commander John Byron, USN, who stated that often people attempt to make up for a lack of ability by assuming “that the burden of victory rests on the weapon, not on its wielder.”
Finally, a quote from Tiger about some of what he has seen in training -
“As instructor for Thunder Ranch part of my job included running Thunderville, a set of buildings on the Texas range students work through while engaging targets which appear across the street. I can’t tell you how many times, after being given time to load and make ready, students would drop into position to engage the first target and not get off a shot because they had forgotten to turn on this, adjust that, or flip a switch on something. Violent encounters in the real world rarely have time to run a leisurely systems analysis on a complicated weapon or the leeway for you to forget something important, like turning your sight on… If you think about it most of us would be well off with a weapon that is as simple as possible…. Gadgets will never replace skill.”
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7078079/213626181.jpg
As I understand it the final details and part selection is going to be finalized at the 2007 SHOT show, but Bill is taking deposits on the class. There are only 15 slots and about half of them have been filled by alumni of the Patriot classes. At this point, if the class is a success, it will be offered 3 or more times a year.
Bill hasn't finished the official website yet, but a preliminary page CAN BE SEEN HERE (http://home.comcast.net/~patriotcustoms/AR15COPOnlineClass.html) You can contact Bill Zollo about taking the AR online class to build this rifle.
Tiger Mckee can be contacted at www.shootrite.org to learn more about the practical application of weapons in defensive situations…
RMTactical 12-15-2006, 13:03 :thumbsup:
Outstanding post sir! :thumbsup:
I'm pretty excited about the class... not only because I helped get them together, but mainly because both guys involved are great guys who are doing this as a labor of love.
The more I train, research, and learn, the more I believe in the format of this gun. After working with the light, simple AR format for a few days, I was amazed at how fast I could use the iron sights, how well I could make hits etc...
I don't see a flashlight on that rifle, do you mount a light on it?
I don't believe in having only one kind of sighting system on a rifle. No sight works all the time. Optics can brake, or batteries die, and irons don't work at night very well. I have both an Aimpoint and iron sights. I have a standard front sight and a flip up A2 sight in the locked up position, on my rifle. I would use the Aimpoint over the irons if I have time to turn it on. I also believe, a rifle should have a flashlight mounted on it at all times, not just when it get dark outside. My rifle is about 9 pounds, but that's okay with me, I would rather have it, and not need it, that the other way around.
I do agree with you that a lot of people have the all the tactical stuff on their gun to either look cool, or to make up for a lack of skill.
c4igrant 12-15-2006, 15:18 Interesting post and look forward to seeing the parts list. I believe that a "KISS" AR is a good idea, but most will agree that an dot optic will aid in speed (which is why the military has adopted them). A flattop with a fixed rear is just as good as an A1 or A2 and gives you some flexibility. A defensive AR also needs a light (as bad things generally happen at night). While it is 100% possible to mount a light on plastic HG's, there isn't a lot of flexibility with this setup IMHO.
As with anything, there are 100 ways to skin this cat and each POV has its down sides.
C4
OhioLibertarian 12-15-2006, 15:22 duct tape and a mag light amigo
:rofl: jk :supergrin:
c4igrant 12-15-2006, 15:25 Originally posted by OhioLibertarian
duct tape and a mag light amigo
:rofl: jk :supergrin:
Been there and done that! :tongueout:
C4
MisterPX 12-15-2006, 16:11 I'm curious why he went with an A1 stock instead of collapsable. Even the A1 is too long for "fighting" rifles. I know cost isn't the issue, as those triangle CAR handguards are not cheap.
I want to thank Paul for putting this up and don't mind answering any questions, but don't want to tie up Eric's bandwidth too much. Let me address a few things in general though about the build.
There will be some options available due to usage needs of individual students. Some do not add to the cost, some do, but we are big boys here and know that and will make arrangements/changes on an individual basis. One thing we will not comprimise on is quality. I am working with several vendors to bring the best product to the table as we have done for years with the 1911 classes.
Just as an example, bolts will be either CMT or LMT, MPI'd and the class will learn how to do the upgrades and how to properly stake carrier keys, one of the main concerns for reliabilty in this platform.
The same care will be taken into the tool selection where we will not be wasting money on garbage tools, but will also not be scrimping on the types and quality of tools. This won't be a class where your scavenging you wifes sewing closet for a doo-dad or nick-nack becasue Bubba said you didn't really need the right tool for the job.
BTW, SBURR, you answered many of your own questions. I also like optics, when the batteries don't die or I have time to turn them on, or they don't fog up when coming out of my safe or house or the trunk of a patrol car into this humid environment I live in. Anyone that wears glasses or has experienced this, or just gotten into their automobile and began driving in these situations know what I am talking about. It's not always high noon at the range. Not really sure how all optics are better at night though, but I do agree with needing a flashlight, but that is part of training with your equipment. 9 lbs is quite hefty for an all day/week-end training event and a lot of gear to pull out of a trunk for immediate need, but it does look cool on the firing line and in a cataloge no doubt. I too have all of the toys on some rifles, but this is my goto rifle when the dogs are barking in the back yard at dark-thirty.
Originally posted by c4igrant
Been there and done that! :tongueout:
C4
Geeze Grant, I hope at least it was tactical black duct tape or at the worst the old 'Army' green stuff we used to liberate form the motor pools and put to better use then they did.:animlol:
Originally posted by sburr23
I don't see a flashlight on that rifle, do you mount a light on it?
I don't believe in having only one kind of sighting system on a rifle. No sight works all the time. Optics can brake, or batteries die, and irons don't work at night very well. I have both an Aimpoint and iron sights. I have a standard front sight and a flip up A2 sight in the locked up position, on my rifle. I would use the Aimpoint over the irons if I have time to turn it on. I also believe, a rifle should have a flashlight mounted on it at all times, not just when it get dark outside. My rifle is about 9 pounds, but that's okay with me, I would rather have it, and not need it, that the other way around.
I do agree with you that a lot of people have the all the tactical stuff on their gun to either look cool, or to make up for a lack of skill.
Flashlights can easily be mounted after the fact - I have one on my gun. I personally prefer the the Hiperform Ultralight Handguards (http://www.hiperform.com/hand-guards.htm). There are a bunch of different thoughts and options regarding lights, so that is left to the end user to decide if/what.
Iron sights applied correctly do work and failure is all but unheard of - whether you use a weapon mounted light, or a handheld in conjunction with the rifle, if you could use a dot, you can use irons. If the target isn't backlight well enough to allow the use of the sights, you probably shouldn't be shooting it.
Originally posted by c4igrant
Interesting post and look forward to seeing the parts list. I believe that a "KISS" AR is a good idea, but most will agree that an dot optic will aid in speed (which is why the military has adopted them). A flattop with a fixed rear is just as good as an A1 or A2 and gives you some flexibility. A defensive AR also needs a light (as bad things generally happen at night). While it is 100% possible to mount a light on plastic HG's, there isn't a lot of flexibility with this setup IMHO.
As with anything, there are 100 ways to skin this cat and each POV has its down sides.
C4
Dot optics may or may not be faster. It has been demonstrated time and time again that they can be a crutch, but they aren't necessary. Thunder Ranch offered an aerial gunnery class where students fired from a moving chopper and had to hit small (5"x5"?) targets at speed. Irons were mandated, but they did experiment with optics for the sake of comparison. They didn't increase the hit ratios, and some students consistently hit 19/20 targets WITH IRONS. IMHO, training is the key, and that way if your optics fail in a fight you aren't trying to adjust when things are already really, really bad.
No doubt about the light - again, the end user can mount their favorite flavor, or learn how to use a handheld with a rifle. Again, I personally prefer the CF guards for a number of reasons, mounting being one of them.
Originally posted by MisterPX
I'm curious why he went with an A1 stock instead of collapsable. Even the A1 is too long for "fighting" rifles. I know cost isn't the issue, as those triangle CAR handguards are not cheap.
Again, simpler is better. The length isn't an issue the way Tiger and Clint teach the use of the gun. New A1 stocks aren't cheap either... the theory is simply that under stress users often forget to deploy the adjustable stocks, they can fail under certain clearance drills, or just break period and get stuck in one position or the other.
The end goal is consistency. Learn how to use the gun ONE way, and under stress you don't have to worry about which way it is set up, if the sights are turned on, if the batteries are working, if the stock is depolyed or for some reason autocollapses, etc.
Tiger has seen thousands of students run through Shootrite and Thunder Ranch. Under the stress of training, he has seen more people screw up the use of the above mentioned systems than get it right - including well trained LE or military users. It is important to remember that if we can't get it right when the targets AREN'T shooting at us, it's gonna be really hard to get right if they are. Fractions of a second can count, hence the belief that removing the unnecessary if/then mental processes is of benefit.
It is a gun for people that want a very basic, easy to carry and shoot fighting rifle that works one way every time. In my experience, the more people train, the less they want on their guns, and the simpler they want the system to be. This rifle is the logical extension of that as applied to the AR platform.
Thank you for posting that, Pangris. To my amateur eyes, there is something of a genius beauty in both the philosophy and execution of that build. Pencil barrel, A1 iron sights, lack of a forward assist, even the 20 round magazines and the all metal buckles on the sling. I find it very intriguing.
I hope you will be able to post the parts used to make that build. I dunno if Mr. McKee would mind, but he doesn't look like the kind of guy you want pissed off at you. :) Maybe someone who attends will be able to get his permission.
I seem to recall Gorelicks had a similar build except with an A2 upper and a shorty buttstock.
Originally posted by Critter
I want to thank Paul for putting this up and don't mind answering any questions, but don't want to tie up Eric's bandwidth too much. Let me address a few things in general though about the build.
Greetings Critter,
Thank you for the offer to field questions. Are you Mr. Zollo? From the text Pangris posted, I am unsure of who to credit for the design. According to the text, the rifle is intended to solve life's complications from 0 to 300 yards. Do you see the primary role of this rifle as offensive, defensive, or both? As a corollary question, do you consider it a general purpose build or more of a specialized build?
Finally, is there a solid reason behind the triangle handguards, or was that a touch of nostalgia? Thanks again.
Originally posted by WayneM
Greetings Critter,
Thank you for the offer to field questions. Are you Mr. Zollo? From the text Pangris posted, I am unsure of who to credit for the design. According to the text, the rifle is intended to solve life's complications from 0 to 300 yards. Do you see the primary role of this rifle as offensive, defensive, or both? As a corollary question, do you consider it a general purpose build or more of a specialized build?
Finally, is there a solid reason behind the triangle handguards, or was that a touch of nostalgia? Thanks again.
AND
I hope you will be able to post the parts used to make that build. I dunno if Mr. McKee would mind, but he doesn't look like the kind of guy you want pissed off at you. Maybe someone who attends will be able to get his permission.
Wayne, I'll jump in here, just in that I know Bill and Tiger are both busy, and I'm on sofa duty :)
Critter = Bill Zollo
Design philosophy = Tiger
Offensive/defensive - None of the above - it is intended to stop threats acting against you, your family, etc, in whatever capacity that occurs.
Triangle handguards - Tiger likes them/historic nod.
General purpose or specialized? Yes :thumbsup: It is a matter of taste... it is a rifle specifically designed to minimize the number of controls and moving parts necessary to operate it in stressful situations, whatever they may be.
0-300 yards - basically, the .223 loses its tendancy to produce dynamic hydrostatic wounds between 150-300 yards, depending on bullet and velocity, hence if you are going much further out than that you should have brought a bolt gun :) That said, if I recall Tiger has fired the gun at extended ranges (600+) and if the rifleman is capable, torso hits can be made if necessary. Everything you ever wanted to know about .223 ammo can be found at THE AMMO ORACLE (http://www.ammo-oracle.com/)
20 round mags - Tiger uses 30's as well, but has his fair share of both. I believe the class gun is going to come with 30 rounders.
Finally - parts selection - Tiger uses all Colt parts, which can get very frustrating - they can be hard to find, priced like gold. Bill is using the best parts that are currently commercially produced. He is a big fan of only using mil spec stuff that is MPI'd, etc etc. NONE of the parts will be cheap, and they are all being selected individually as "bet your life" type quality. I'd guess that Bill will share his findings at some point...
My gun...
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7324813/95476373.jpg
Hiperform handguard prior to light/3M tape
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7324813/95476380.jpg
Surefire scout light -
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7324813/213706806.jpg
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7324813/213706805.jpg
Another good option I haven't gotten around to mounting - any Streamlight TL series can be inserted/detached in seconds, which is useful if your big TL-3 goes down, but you also carry a TL-2 handheld. The TL-3 incan light will also "throw" out to 100 yards.
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/7324813/213706808.jpg
RMTactical 12-15-2006, 19:40 Originally posted by WayneM
I seem to recall Gorelicks had a similar build except with an A2 upper and a shorty buttstock.
I still have A2 irons, but I had to go with a flat top upper. I just couldn't stand not having the versatility for mounting optics in the future.
I got rid of the buttstock too because I needed just one more inch and I had already installed a 1" extension...
So, this is it now.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/Superlight-RMT.jpg
I am wanting to cut down the carry handle just so that it's a fixed iron sight.
As for the A1 sights vs A2... I hear a lot of people make a fuss over the difference stating the A1 sights are better. I like the A2 sights. personal preference.
I also like and sometimes use the forward assist to quietly chamber a round when getting in and out of vehicles hunting coyotes... If it breaks... well I won't use it then...
I really dislike the A2 stock... and although I the A1 is a much better length, I think it's a bit on the weak side in comparison... and there's no fixed stock I know of that will give me all that I want, so I compromised and went with a 6 pos stock... But I thought about going with an ACE SOCOM... Which I may in the future... but theyre kinda pricey, although I think that they are the best stock out there.
The carbon fiber handguards are excellent. Very strong.
I have been amazed at the strength of the carbon handguards. Hiperform sent me a small piece, about 3", and it can support 300+ lbs. Truly amazing.
I think in the context of this rifle, the A1 is primarily selected for the simplicity and weight. You shouldn't need to adjust anything once zero'd between 0-300 yards - you just have to understand mechanical offset, drop, etc.
The A2 sights certainly have utility, especially for distance work. My Colt 6601 wears them, and they are necessary for long range competition, etc.
I believe Bill is buying the current production A1 stocks from Fulton Armory, which as I understand are built to the A2 specs, just shorter.
Okay, K.I.S.S. is fine ... :shocked:
... but where's that $150 3-point sling? You know, the one all those "totally tactical" operators say you just gots to have. :upeyes:
Nice clean, "old school" rifles, by the way. :thumbsup:
OhioLibertarian 12-15-2006, 21:02 you can make it for $11...
http://theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=106&Itemid=55
Yeah, I heard my gun wouldn't run without a three point, but strangely enough it hasn't choked in thousands of rounds despite the 2 pt... I can't figure it out, but I stopped questioning it after a couple cases :supergrin:
RMTactical 12-15-2006, 22:58 Originally posted by pangris
I have been amazed at the strength of the carbon handguards. Hiperform sent me a small piece, about 3", and it can support 300+ lbs. Truly amazing.
This rifle wears the hiperform carbon fiber handguards. They are excellent.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/mwirig79/RMT-MASTERpics00112.jpg
The carbine's carbon fiber handguards were made by DPMS. I bought them from Rainier Arms for $65 shipped IIRC.
Originally posted by pangris
I believe Bill is buying the current production A1 stocks from Fulton Armory, which as I understand are built to the A2 specs, just shorter.
Huh... I'm interested in these... I'd love to put one on my 20" if they are as you stated, "built to A2 specs".
:thumbsup:
RedhorseG20 12-16-2006, 00:53 I took a class at Shootrite and liked it. The gun makes sense to me.
e-mail sent on enrolling.
1811guy2 12-16-2006, 05:26 My Colt A2 carbine with A2 stock. Definitely my favorite.
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k81/1811guy2/6520.jpg
Guys, I feel like I'm skipping out, but I have to attend to some family business out of town on an unexpected business for most of the day due to an elderly relative of my wifes. I'll touch base tonite here and especially to the e-mail inquiries I have recieved when I can sit down and have time to give more complete answers.
I will input that the class will cover the entire build of an AR, and that with that knowledge students can move forward and build nearly any of the hundreds of configurations of the AR. This class is not going to be a 'Slot-A Tab-B' course on how to assemble a 'kit' anymore than our 1911 classes are. The layout of the rifle is straightforward and basic and fell beautifully into our Carry On Patrol concept of firearms, and with the change of an upper, or stock, or forend, or, or, or,.....you can configure the 'Swiss Army Knife' of the rifle world anyway you find necessary. The emphasis on the class is how to build it correctly and with what parts. The emphasis from Tigers end is how to use it correctly and developing the right skills to that end. In both cases, it's the education and skills that you have at the end of the trail that are paramount and are our goals to provide, the rifle is just the diploma.
c4igrant 12-16-2006, 08:16 Originally posted by Critter
Geeze Grant, I hope at least it was tactical black duct tape or at the worst the old 'Army' green stuff we used to liberate form the motor pools and put to better use then they did.:animlol:
It was 100mph (OD). :supergrin:
C4
c4igrant 12-16-2006, 08:40 I fully get the KISS thing, but what I have seen time and time again is that a guy buys an A1 or A2 and then figures out that they want to add an optic. They are then SOL (for the most part). It is much easier to just use a flattop and say the LaRue Tactical BUIS (which is an A1) or the LMT BUIS (which is an A2). There are of course many other BUIS options out there. A flattop with a BUIS will allow the shooter to learn to use irons and then once they have mastered that, they can add an optic (if they choose). No need to purchase a gooseneck rail or carry handle mount.
One of the down sides to the A1 is lack of sling choices. You limit yourself quite a bit there. There are only a handfull of companies that make A1 receiver plates and with that, only 1 or 2 of them are even any good. You could also use a 3 point sling, but those generally condsidered a cluster ***** waiting to happen.
There upsides and downsides to all gear selection. Just be aware of what you lose with an AR in the A1 configuration.
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
I fully get the KISS thing, but what I have seen time and time again is that a guy buys an A1 or A2 and then figures out that they want to add an optic...
One of the down sides to the A1 is lack of sling choices.
C4
How many times have you seen that same guy come full circle and go back to irons, and also realize that a basic 2 point sling works fine? :wavey: Hell, I've been buying revolvers... I'm not tactical at all :tongueout:
c4igrant 12-16-2006, 11:32 Originally posted by pangris
How many times have you seen that same guy come full circle and go back to irons, and also realize that a basic 2 point sling works fine? :wavey: Hell, I've been buying revolvers... I'm not tactical at all :tongueout:
I have never seen anyone ditch optics and go back to iron (to date). 2 Point slings are king (unless you are doing vehicle ops) then a single is about the best choice.
Revolvers? Own two. 1911 is still the weapon of choice though. :supergrin:
C4
Originally posted by c4igrant
I have never seen anyone ditch optics and go back to iron (to date).
Well, now you can at least ay you know a guy :)
Speaking of...
Bill has reported a heavy interest in the flat tops for a variety of reasons covered here. At this point, they will probably be offered as an option.
c4igrant 12-16-2006, 12:27 Originally posted by pangris
Well, now you can at least ay you know a guy :)
Speaking of...
Bill has reported a heavy interest in the flat tops for a variety of reasons covered here. At this point, they will probably be offered as an option.
Good on the flattop, will help people out in the long term.
C4
Martindog 12-16-2006, 13:10 Originally posted by c4igrant
I fully get the KISS thing, but what I have seen time and time again is that a guy buys an A1 or A2 and then figures out that they want to add an optic. They are then SOL (for the most part). It is much easier to just use a flattop and say the LaRue Tactical BUIS (which is an A1) or the LMT BUIS (which is an A2). There are of course many other BUIS options out there. A flattop with a BUIS will allow the shooter to learn to use irons and then once they have mastered that, they can add an optic (if they choose). No need to purchase a gooseneck rail or carry handle mount.
There upsides and downsides to all gear selection. Just be aware of what you lose with an AR in the A1 configuration.
C4
Could not agree more. A LaRue BUIS is about as bulletproof as one can get without going to a fixed carry handle sight, and the flat top gives options for optics. Mount your optic so it cowitnesses, it doesn't matter if the battery fails, you still have fixed sights deployed right there ready to go. No need to flip anything up.
Also, if you are into K.I.S.S. and you are insistent on a fixed stock, either a VLTOR clubfoot A1 length (http://www.vltor.com/rifle-modstock.htm) or a Sully (http://www17.serrahost.com/servlet/defensive-edgenet/-strse-Sully-Stocks/Categories) are viable options. Sully's also have a 1" spacer; granted, it's not quick adjust, but it does give you some fitting options. IIRC with the 1" spacer the stock comes in just under an A1 length, and without it, it's that much shorter, closer to a slider on the 1st notch.
Daniels Defense and other vendors sell the Burnsed loop (http://www.gearsector.com/?page=shop/browse&category=mountingsolutions_a1/a2slingmounts) that mount on the receiver, these can be used with a Sully for single point or 2-point slings if you want to use that mounting point as an option. These loops are just over 1/4" thick, so add that to the stock dimensions.
c4igrant 12-16-2006, 13:13 Originally posted by Martindog
Could not agree more. A LaRue BUIS is about as bulletproof as one can get without going to a fixed carry handle sight, and the flat top gives options for optics. Mount your optic so it cowitnesses, it doesn't matter if the battery fails, you still have fixed sights deployed right there ready to go. No need to flip anything up.
Also, if you are into K.I.S.S. and you are insistent on a fixed stock, either a VLTOR clubfoot A1 length (http://www.vltor.com/rifle-modstock.htm) or a Sully are viable options. Sully's also have a 1" spacer; granted, it's not quick adjust, but it does give you some fitting options. IIRC with the 1" spacer the stock comes in just under an A1 length, and without it, it's that much shorter, closer to a slider on the 1st notch.
Daniels Defense sells the Burnseed loops that mount on the receiver, these can be used with a Sully for single point or 2-point slings if you want to use that mounting point as an option. These loops are just over 1/4" thick, so add that to the stock dimensions.
DD and TD were the two companies that I was thinking when I mentioned A1 receiver plates.
C4
Originally posted by pangris
Wayne, I'll jump in here, just in that I know Bill and Tiger are both busy, and I'm on sofa duty :)
Thanks again, Pangris. Regarding magazine selection, I assumed that 20 round magazines were part of the design to reduce carry weight. Apparently Mr. McKee will use whatever magazines the situation dictates, which certainly makes sense.
Was the idea of optics dismissed altogether given the design philosophy? I wonder if Mr. McKee would consider the use of a flat-top were a suitable model available without the foward assist. I can't help but think such a flat-top offers more flexibility at no extra cost (in weight or complexity).
Originally posted by RMTactical
I still have A2 irons, but I had to go with a flat top upper. I just couldn't stand not having the versatility for mounting optics in the future.
I got rid of the buttstock too because I needed just one more inch and I had already installed a 1" extension...
So, this is it now.
Yes, that's the one I was thinking of. Too bad the shorty buttstock didn't work out for you. I loved proportions and the baby AR profile it gave. :)
Did your original A2 upper have a pencil barrel as well?
Originally posted by pangris
Bill has reported a heavy interest in the flat tops for a variety of reasons covered here. At this point, they will probably be offered as an option.
There you go... you just answered one of my earlier questions. You are awesome man. :thumbsup:
There are plenty of flat tops with no foward assist...
Regarding stocks, as long as it can be shouldered properly, the butt itself is the right height top to bottom, and there is no material that could come off/bind up the charging handle (think ACE and foam), go to it.
If you go to far, it can get so light in the read that the gun becomes muzzle heavy and poorly balanced... IMHO the A1 works fine, no point in reinventing the wheel.
Why no forward assist? Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Panzerfaust 12-16-2006, 17:23 I like the idea, but I still say the one thing an AR carbine should have if it being used for this is a flashlight.
The stock is up to you. I prefer collapsible VLTOR's, but if that weren't an option, I'd go A2 stock.
A lot of factors involved in flat-top vs. A1/A2 upper. Don't feel like going through that.
I have a 2-pt. sling on mine, but I'll be the first to admit the one RMTac has on the AR with the float tube definitely has my attention...
I like Aimpoints, and I see these as being great pieces of hardware, especially when they can be dumped should they fail with little effort. I like ACOG's on longer rifles, but that's just me.
I would also suggest "Go Large" on controls. If you are wearing gloves, especially, this is a good thing.
RMTactical 12-16-2006, 17:40 Originally posted by WayneM
Did your original A2 upper have a pencil barrel as well?
Yes, it was always meant as a light weight no frills rifle. Mostly just a spare or as my wife's rifle.
Originally posted by dport
Why no forward assist? Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Read the original post more carefully - short version, the gun DOES have a forward assist. The mechanical "assist" is a battering ram that can force around in that shouldn't go in period. The forward assist is a holdover from problems that have been long since solved (and should have never occured in the first place).
If you can't "assist" with the half moon and your finger, run the bolt. If the rifle doesn't want to chamber a round, there is usually a damn good reason, and forcing the issue will often leave you with a broken club, or single shot club...
Originally posted by pangris
Read the original post more carefully - short version, the gun DOES have a forward assist.
Great attitude.
The mechanical "assist" is a battering ram that can force around in that shouldn't go in period. The forward assist is a holdover from problems that have been long since solved (and should have never occured in the first place).
Or it can be used to ensure a round is chambered after a press check. Especially if you're running the gun properly lubed, have run a significant number of rounds through the gun creating an uncomfortable heat on the bolt carrier, or are using gloves which may or may not give you the purchase required to use the "half moon."
If you can't "assist" with the half moon and your finger, run the bolt. If the rifle doesn't want to chamber a round, there is usually a damn good reason, and forcing the issue will often leave you with a broken club, or single shot club...
Of course the design for the half moon is to open the dust cover. That's about it. As for jamming a round into the chamber that doesn't need to be there, I have never used the FA for that. Nor do I know anyone who has. I know plenty of people who use it after a chamber check to ensure the round is chambered, however.
Again why not have it? Does anyone honestly think just having one is somehow going to compel you to force a round that shouldn't be chambered?
dport, I'm pretty sure we're so far from the same page that we're not even reading the same book.
Originally posted by pangris
dport, I'm pretty sure we're so far from the same page that we're not even reading the same book.
Well considering every piece of information I can find says the difference between the original M16 and the A1 was the forward assist, despite what is said in your original post, I don't even think we are in the same library.
PFC Miller should have been told the forward assist was going to cause him more problems than it's worth:
But Miller's rifle was jammed. A spent round would eject, but the new round would only go halfway into the chamber. Miller slammed his palm into a lever on the side of the gun, and the bullet slid into place. He raised his rifle and fired. The Iraqi collapsed in a heap before he could fire the mortar round... After it was over, a large bruise spread over Miller's palm from the constant slapping against the rifle.
By Tom Bowman
Sun National Staff
Originally published September 28, 2003
Hi guys!
Well, this seems to have turned into a thread about what the ultimate rifle would be, whether plain and simple or all doo-dadded out. What is really nice about this course, besides the fact that if someone has a special need in the first place, is at the end of the trail they will have the knowledge to change parts and not be hung into one configuration.
Now, let me address a few things, and keep in mind, that there is more than one correct train of thought in some things and that I am not professing that our way is the only way or the only right way.
Forward assist: Until you are at the range trying to get somones rifle 'unstuck' from jamming a round into the chamber that was out of spec or full of garbage you cannot appreciate how important it is not to use this feature in many cases. Now, the half moon in the slide does facilitate the opening of the dust cover, but it is not the primary design. That could have been accomplished by a small 1/4" notch where the ball catch it located. Now, I hear people talk about press checking their AR's. I have always been trained that when you load your AR it is in the following manner. (Normal storage position for my rifles unloaded is bolt forward on empty chamber, safety on.)Grasp magazine, feel which side round is on, insert magazine, push/pull mag, charge chamber, remove magazine, feel for top round, should now be on opposite side, insert magazine, push/pull. This way it can be accomplished in the dark if necessary and you only have one method of loading for all situations. In addition to this, I check the bolt forward position using the half moon and always close the dust cover at that time. Now, I'm not saying it's the only correct way, but you could do this standing on your head underwater while blindfolded and know you were GTG.
A-1 sights: Whether it be in the standard config or something like the Troy BUIS. It is a set it and forget it configuration. I do a 50yd BZO, that way I knw to aim a little high at 25, little low at 100, and I know the settings will not be accidentally changed with the two knobs on the A-2 sight that require no tools or effort to change. If the setting on an A-1 sight are changed,it is done intentionally and with great effort. The A-2 sight is great for DCM/CMP matches in my opinion, but not much else. I also change the aperatures to same plane apreatures, as will the class, so there is not an impact difference from one aprature to the other. You do know that there are different impact point between the large and small apratures on A-1's and A-2's, right?
Iron vs Optic. I do not for a minute want to deny or challenge the statement that optics can help someone pick up a target quicker in some cases, especially the holographic and red dot sights, if they are on, lens caps off, and intensity of dot set properly for the current conditions. Heck, I like them myself. But now, let's look at a couple of things. Our philosiphy on the classes have always been C.O.P., Carry On Patrol. This concept worked for us originally and also fell in line with our 1911 project with Gunsite. This is what made Tiger McKee's format work so well with our philosiphy. Imagine having to grab your rifle out of the trunk for an immediate need situation. How is is stored? Optics off, unloaded. If you use this design, it's grab, load and go, not grab, remove lens covers, turn on optics, adjust intensity, load an go. (Also, if you were to remove it from the trunk of my car this past Thursday morning here in Augusta, it would have fogged up anyway's like my spotting scope did and would have been useless anyway's.)
Now, part duex of the conundrum, the cost of quality optics and mounts would raise the cost of the class to the student 30%-40%+ depending on the optic and mount selection. I ahve one student enrolled as we speak with a medical need for optics and he is not sure which way to go, EO or AimPoint. Make the wrong choice, lot's of ducks down the drain. Something to think about, and neither one is the right choice for everyone. I'm sending him both of mine to try out, and then will most likely work out something with Grant when he decides on what he likes best.
Once again, let me stress that it is the education that is paramont in this class. Down the road, you need a flattop, cool, you have the tools, both education wise and physically, to do the deed, and do it right. Isn't that what it's all about anyway's?
(Gee, that sure is an awefully long post for me, not my style, hands have cramps now.)
Originally posted by dport
PFC Miller should have been told the forward assist was going to cause him more problems than it's worth:
By Tom Bowman
Sun National Staff
Originally published September 28, 2003
This is a clear indication that the jam was not ammo or chamber related, but most likely maintenece or lubrication related, or even a popped primer jammed between bolt and carrier. I assure you this is, if not urban legend, a one in a million incident that has more to do with devine intervention than a forward assist.
RMTactical 12-16-2006, 23:11 Originally posted by Critter
Once again, let me stress that it is the education that is paramont in this class. Down the road, you need a flattop, cool, you have the tools, both education wise and physically, to do the deed, and do it right. Isn't that what it's all about anyway's?
Good post.
Almost no two people will agree with the perfect overall setup for their AR, and that's part of the beauty of the whole platform.
The great thing about having the know how to biuld your own is the ability to customize your weapon, even if it's just to add a flat top upper with a FA, A2 BUIS and an optic. :supergrin:
DJ Niner 12-17-2006, 00:46 Are none of you folks left-handed? Do none of you shoot/train left-handed? Hard to believe no one has mentioned the lack of a brass deflector (unless I missed it in a previous post). Although I think most of this proposed rifle's features are well thought-out for its intended use, I remember (less than fondly) what happens if you fire a slick-side original M16 or A1 left-handed without a brass deflector. You get a case in the face. Or the eye, if you're REALLY unlucky (and sans glasses).
This gun needs a brass deflector if it is to be used for serious purposes.
Originally posted by DJ Niner
Are none of you folks left-handed? Do none of you shoot/train left-handed? Hard to believe no one has mentioned the lack of a brass deflector (unless I missed it in a previous post). Although I think most of this proposed rifle's features are well thought-out for its intended use, I remember (less than fondly) what happens if you fire a slick-side original M16 or A1 left-handed without a brass deflector. You get a case in the face. Or the eye, if you're REALLY unlucky (and sans glasses).
This gun needs a brass deflector if it is to be used for serious purposes.
I remember shooting an old AR-10 without a brass deflector and the burn marks on my right cheek.
But I'm used to people not thinking about southpaws, so the lack of a brass deflector didn't even phase me.
Well, certainly, this class is not for everyone, however, any special need or requirement can be adjusted to for an individual that wants to take the course. As has been mentioned, the configuration can be changed, and I will cover that on an individual basis. I already have one fellow enrolled, that due to a medical condition, requires optics, another whose department requires a different configuration, and a couple of lefties who are going A-1 with deflector. These people took the initiative to call or e-mail and ask the questions after seeing it mentioned here.
I guess I could have been a bit clearer on this, but several people got it, so I thought that I was. There are also options that will be offered, such as ambi safties.
BTW, I shoot leftie and righty, and I have not had any trouble, the extraction and ejection is poitive and gets the casing out of there quick. The rifle has two things going for it in that regard, it's carbine legnth, so the action is quick, and the bolt upgrades make the extraction/ejection positive. You could feed a five gallon bucket with where the casings fall.
Critter, besides the bolt upgrade, what other reliability mods do you consider essential over a stock AR? Finally, you mentioned tool selection as being equally important. Would it be asking too much to get peek at the list of tools required for the course? :)
Hi Wayne.
Parts selection and proper installation of the rifle are probably the most important things, of course, that leaves little out, it's a complete package. I don't believe in taking shortcuts or leaving out steps. Just as a small example, one thing I see on a lot of rifles that I address when they come through is proper staking, whether it be the gas key, castle nuts, optics mounts, etc... Followed by that, either things that have been installed wrong, i.e...the old Bubba, "Ya don't need a torque wrench for that!" or "Why ya titenin' and loosenin' that over and over again?", not that there is anything wrong with Bubba, just the thinking.
There are also several things to look for when one isn't acting right and we'll learn those also in the class, and the answers we don't have, we'll find. It's the network of people, both professional individuals and companies that we are involved with, along with the students, that make these classes so successful.
As far as tools required, they are supplied with your rifle parts for this class. You basically just need to have a few items such as a sturdy bench vice, small hammer, torque wrench, and a few other 'common' tools. Everything specialized is provided.
Originally posted by DJ Niner
Are none of you folks left-handed? Do none of you shoot/train left-handed? Hard to believe no one has mentioned the lack of a brass deflector (unless I missed it in a previous post).
Hadn't been addressed yet in this thread...
I haven't had any problems, and I do train weak side. Mine kicks them out at almost 90 degrees... never better understood than when I let my little brother use it in a class and kept getting hit with brass when standing on his right side.
Further, I used a 6601 in that class since he stole mine, and damn if I didn't miss the 6 pounder...
c4igrant 12-17-2006, 12:08 Originally posted by Critter
Hi guys!
Well, this seems to have turned into a thread about what the ultimate rifle would be, whether plain and simple or all doo-dadded out. What is really nice about this course, besides the fact that if someone has a special need in the first place, is at the end of the trail they will have the knowledge to change parts and not be hung into one configuration.
Now, let me address a few things, and keep in mind, that there is more than one correct train of thought in some things and that I am not professing that our way is the only way or the only right way.
Forward assist: Until you are at the range trying to get somones rifle 'unstuck' from jamming a round into the chamber that was out of spec or full of garbage you cannot appreciate how important it is not to use this feature in many cases. Now, the half moon in the slide does facilitate the opening of the dust cover, but it is not the primary design. That could have been accomplished by a small 1/4" notch where the ball catch it located. Now, I hear people talk about press checking their AR's. I have always been trained that when you load your AR it is in the following manner. (Normal storage position for my rifles unloaded is bolt forward on empty chamber, safety on.)Grasp magazine, feel which side round is on, insert magazine, push/pull mag, charge chamber, remove magazine, feel for top round, should now be on opposite side, insert magazine, push/pull. This way it can be accomplished in the dark if necessary and you only have one method of loading for all situations. In addition to this, I check the bolt forward position using the half moon and always close the dust cover at that time. Now, I'm not saying it's the only correct way, but you could do this standing on your head underwater while blindfolded and know you were GTG.
A-1 sights: Whether it be in the standard config or something like the Troy BUIS. It is a set it and forget it configuration. I do a 50yd BZO, that way I knw to aim a little high at 25, little low at 100, and I know the settings will not be accidentally changed with the two knobs on the A-2 sight that require no tools or effort to change. If the setting on an A-1 sight are changed,it is done intentionally and with great effort. The A-2 sight is great for DCM/CMP matches in my opinion, but not much else. I also change the aperatures to same plane apreatures, as will the class, so there is not an impact difference from one aprature to the other. You do know that there are different impact point between the large and small apratures on A-1's and A-2's, right?
Iron vs Optic. I do not for a minute want to deny or challenge the statement that optics can help someone pick up a target quicker in some cases, especially the holographic and red dot sights, if they are on, lens caps off, and intensity of dot set properly for the current conditions. Heck, I like them myself. But now, let's look at a couple of things. Our philosiphy on the classes have always been C.O.P., Carry On Patrol. This concept worked for us originally and also fell in line with our 1911 project with Gunsite. This is what made Tiger McKee's format work so well with our philosiphy. Imagine having to grab your rifle out of the trunk for an immediate need situation. How is is stored? Optics off, unloaded. If you use this design, it's grab, load and go, not grab, remove lens covers, turn on optics, adjust intensity, load an go. (Also, if you were to remove it from the trunk of my car this past Thursday morning here in Augusta, it would have fogged up anyway's like my spotting scope did and would have been useless anyway's.)
Now, part duex of the conundrum, the cost of quality optics and mounts would raise the cost of the class to the student 30%-40%+ depending on the optic and mount selection. I ahve one student enrolled as we speak with a medical need for optics and he is not sure which way to go, EO or AimPoint. Make the wrong choice, lot's of ducks down the drain. Something to think about, and neither one is the right choice for everyone. I'm sending him both of mine to try out, and then will most likely work out something with Grant when he decides on what he likes best.
Once again, let me stress that it is the education that is paramont in this class. Down the road, you need a flattop, cool, you have the tools, both education wise and physically, to do the deed, and do it right. Isn't that what it's all about anyway's?
(Gee, that sure is an awefully long post for me, not my style, hands have cramps now.)
I do my round check the way you state, but as you know that is not always the norm. Most shooters want to stick their finger in the chamber and feel the round, then two taps on the forward assist. For this reason alone, I would always have a forward assist. I wouldn't be worried about the 1-2% that want to cram something that doesn't belong into their chamber. They are most likely idiots and shouldn't own an AR.
Onto optics. The new Aimpoints have 50,000 hours of run time. The EOTech REV F has the ability to stay on for 8hrs before it shuts off. My advice to LEO's starting a shift is to fip down the covers (on the Aimpoint) and turn it own for the entire shift (same for the EOTech). That way the optic is ready to go. For folks that fear that they cannot remember to open the covers on their Aimpoint, they make see thru covers that fixes this problem! :thumbsup:
The other main problem with Irons alone, is that in pitch black you cannot see them (at all). I recently taught a low light/no light carbine class and guys without optics struggled to find their irons most of the night. An easy way to fix this, is to get a Tritium front sight post.
So with the advances in battery run time, there really isn't any need to ever shut off an optic. Ontop of that, your BUIS's are always up and ready to go anyway. Optics are however very pricey and DO understand why you are not using them in this build.
C4
Clear Aimpoint Covers
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Aimpoint/C3%20on%20LT%20mount2.JPG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Aimpoint/see%20thru%20covers.JPG
out of morbid curiosity...
does someone make a detachable A1 carry handle?
that might be the ticket here.
Originally posted by JinVA
out of morbid curiosity...
does someone make a detachable A1 carry handle?
that might be the ticket here.
Yup. You can get it from Sully at SLR15.com
RMTactical 12-17-2006, 14:05 Originally posted by JinVA
out of morbid curiosity...
does someone make a detachable A1 carry handle?
that might be the ticket here.
Superior Arms makes them.
Originally posted by c4igrant
I do my round check the way you state, but as you know that is not always the norm. Most shooters want to stick their finger in the chamber and feel the round, then two taps on the forward assist. For this reason alone, I would always have a forward assist. I wouldn't be worried about the 1-2% that want to cram something that doesn't belong into their chamber. They are most likely idiots and shouldn't own an AR.
Onto optics. The new Aimpoints have 50,000 hours of run time. The EOTech REV F has the ability to stay on for 8hrs before it shuts off. My advice to LEO's starting a shift is to fip down the covers (on the Aimpoint) and turn it own for the entire shift (same for the EOTech). That way the optic is ready to go. For folks that fear that they cannot remember to open the covers on their Aimpoint, they make see thru covers that fixes this problem! :thumbsup:
The other main problem with Irons alone, is that in pitch black you cannot see them (at all). I recently taught a low light/no light carbine class and guys without optics struggled to find their irons most of the night. An easy way to fix this, is to get a Tritium front sight post.
So with the advances in battery run time, there really isn't any need to ever shut off an optic. Ontop of that, your BUIS's are always up and ready to go anyway. Optics are however very pricey and DO understand why you are not using them in this build.
Have you no shame? Selling crap in the "anti crap" rifle class thread??? :tongueout:
Regarding the forward assist - I press check, and you can easily push the bolt home with the cut out. The extra FA came about due to the powder issue in Vietnam and excessive fouling, etc. It isn't necessary. It has nothing to do with people putting things in the chamber, it is about forcing a round to chamber in a fight that could/will lock up the gun. Run - the - bolt. If doing a press check, use the cut out. My brother and I just did some AR work, and we both did a LOT of press checks using that method, and never had a problem.
Regarding the optics - yes, the batteries last a long time, but stop worrying about selling enough to make a living... there's a sucker born every minute :supergrin:
MrMurphy 12-17-2006, 16:04 My issue M68 (Aimpoint Comp M2) is still running on it's original battery, 1 year after initial issue, and it's been "on" 6-18 hours a day, six days out of a 9 day cycle, for a year and a month.
On the press-check with the cutout: doesn't always work as well with gloves and/or wet hands, I prefer the FA.
Originally posted by MrMurphy
My issue M68 (Aimpoint Comp M2) is still running on it's original battery, 1 year after initial issue, and it's been "on" 6-18 hours a day, six days out of a 9 day cycle, for a year and a month.
On the press-check with the cutout: doesn't always work as well with gloves and/or wet hands, I prefer the FA. Damnit! Don't you know you're not allowed gloves or wet hands. You need to ditch that FA because you ARE going to jam up your gun when you need it most, don't you know? Never mind the thousands upon thousands of users who haven't abused their FA privileges. Never mind those who have used the FA to get a rifle operational in a combat environment. You are bound to kill yourself using it!
A bruised palm is an indicator of slamming the assist on an already chambered round. Sound like someone is performing the older TTP of SPORTs, in which the assist was always hit even if not needed.
dport, may you get a gun with all the trimmings and live your life happily every after.
Originally posted by pangris
dport, may you get a gun with all the trimmings and live your life happily every after.
Hmm. Most of my guns are minimalist in nature. In fact, my first gun is much like the one you described only with a FA, brass deflector and collapsing stock.
Originally posted by RM
A bruised palm is an indicator of slamming the assist on an already chambered round. Sound like someone is performing the older TTP of SPORTs, in which the assist was always hit even if not needed.
Or it could have been the adrenaline dump. Or it could have been his gun was that messed up. The 507th didn't earn a reputation for keeping up with their PM on their guns. Or it could have been having to perform the same procedure over and over and over again. Or a combination of all of the above.
Dport, when you sign up for the class, we'll make sure you get a flattop with an assist, you are not the only one that will have one, we have at least one other, and he's going with Troy rears and an optic, it all just costs a little more. We can probably be even of we go with an A-1 w/ FA and deflector or A-2, just let me know what you want. E-Mial me for payment information.
Grant, save me up an exceptional deal on an optic, I don't feel like retailing them at this point and doing dealer through Midway takes away from you guys that do the retailing for a living. Might even need to get one for Dport depending on which one he wants. This could turn into some multiple sales for you.
Repeat after me guys, we can tailor the rifle if you have a need, you will have the skills and tools at the end to change it if you desire, and this has nothing to do with your idea of a perfect rifle. Our likes will never be 100% the same, and if I were to push 300.00 worth of back-up sights and 300.00 to 700.00 dollars worth of optics on people on top of that, you would think I had lost my mind. If you think I would accept 20.00 irons and a 30.00 optic for something with my name on it, then you would have lost yours. :supergrin:
Originally posted by c4igrant
I do my round check the way you state, but as you know that is not always the norm. Most shooters want to stick their finger in the chamber and feel the round, then two taps on the forward assist. For this reason alone, I would always have a forward assist. I wouldn't be worried about the 1-2% that want to cram something that doesn't belong into their chamber. They are most likely idiots and shouldn't own an AR.
Really haven't known that many people to use the press check, stick my finger in the hole method, much less most, but I am admittadly a sample of one here. I guess when I check my bolt lock before I close the dust cover I am doing the same thing, but I am more aware of how much pressure it would take to close the bolt indicating if it's a problem or just a little drag. The FA is always an option, until I am beating the charging handle with a rubber mallet because 'Darwin' drove it in, or taking the barrel and or buffer off when the charging handle breaks because he was highly motivated. I'm notanit FA, I just don't use them or think they are necessary, and have just seen more problems than benefits, mostly due to lack of or improper training.
Originally posted by c4igrant
Onto optics. The new Aimpoints have 50,000 hours of run time. The EOTech REV F has the ability to stay on for 8hrs before it shuts off. My advice to LEO's starting a shift is to fip down the covers (on the Aimpoint) and turn it own for the entire shift (same for the EOTech). That way the optic is ready to go. For folks that fear that they cannot remember to open the covers on their Aimpoint, they make see thru covers that fixes this problem! :thumbsup:
I have honestly never seen this taught in any training class or proposed as a policy with any department I am familure with. What level setting do you reccomend in this situation?
Originally posted by c4igrant
The other main problem with Irons alone, is that in pitch black you cannot see them (at all). I recently taught a low light/no light carbine class and guys without optics struggled to find their irons most of the night. An easy way to fix this, is to get a Tritium front sight post.
I personally am not fond of tritium on even a pistol, that's why I'm a big fan of flashlights. I carry a 6P with a P61 element daily for this reason. I do agree it is an option though.
Originally posted by c4igrant
So with the advances in battery run time, there really isn't any need to ever shut off an optic. Ontop of that, your BUIS's are always up and ready to go anyway. Optics are however very pricey and DO understand why you are not using them in this build.
Cost is certainly a factor here, not only in value recieved for dollars traded, but just the initial cost of tools and tuition on top of just parts. Future builds would benefit from group pricing, the charter class has no more tuition to ever pay for an AR class, and they will already have the tools, sans for any specialty tools that a particular piece of kit would require. This leaves dollars available for toys, I mean tools of the trade.
This is what makes the AR such a beautiful platform. You do not have to comprimise until your checkbook is empty.
Originally posted by Critter
Grant, save me up an exceptional deal on an optic, I don't feel like retailing them at this point and doing dealer through Midway takes away from you guys that do the retailing for a living. Might even need to get one for Dport depending on which one he wants. This could turn into some multiple sales for you.
Hell, I might even get an Aimpoint in a group buy...
... for my wife's gun :whistling:
Originally posted by c4igrant
The other main problem with Irons alone, is that in pitch black you cannot see them (at all). I recently taught a low light/no light carbine class and guys without optics struggled to find their irons most of the night. An easy way to fix this, is to get a Tritium front sight post.
I personally like tritium on my pistols - no doubt it helps a lot in LL - haven't tried it on the rifle yet, but I'm certainly not opposed to it.
Originally posted by Critter
Dport, when you sign up for the class, we'll make sure you get a flattop with an assist, you are not the only one that will have one, we have at least one other, and he's going with Troy rears and an optic, it all just costs a little more.
Like I'm going to waste money on a class learning to build an AR.:upeyes:
(smacks head) how could we forget dport knows EVERYTHING?
For someone that
1. doesn't plan to take the class
2. doesn't have anything to learn
3. Has fought or trained to the point he knows the best config for him
You sure have wasted a lot of your time in this thread...
Originally posted by dport
Like I'm going to waste money on a class learning to build an AR.:upeyes:
Oh, I guess I misunderstood, I thought you were concerned about your participation or something, you sure did fret over the configuration quite a bit and spent a lot of time on something you thought was a waste of time and money. I'm used to people that value their own time more than that, but everyone has their own opinions of what their time is worth I guess. Sorry.
Marauder.45 12-17-2006, 19:06 I tagged this thread in hopes of getting some good info.
I did.
But I keep coming back to all of the bickering. Stop.
I think I'll unsubscribe and figure out a way to build my own damn rifle. On the cheap and easy.
Forgive those of us who have to start somewhere.
Originally posted by Marauder.45
I tagged this thread in hopes of getting some good info.
I did.
But I keep coming back to all of the bickering. Stop.
I think I'll unsubscribe and figure out a way to build my own damn rifle. On the cheap and easy.
Forgive those of us who have to start somewhere.
Hate to agree with you Marauder, I tried to diffuse the the entire debate over the configuration and point out it is the education that is important. It has always been that from the beginning of our endeavors, but we all to often have people that miss the point. I'm sorry that this thread isn't a 'how to' thread or a free education, the class isn't even a class on how to build one cheap or easy, it's about how to build one right. You cannot do that cheap or easy. It certainly isn't for everyone, and I hate the fact that you wasted your time.
Originally posted by pangris
(smacks head) how could we forget dport knows EVERYTHING?
For someone that
1. doesn't plan to take the class
2. doesn't have anything to learn
3. Has fought or trained to the point he knows the best config for him
You sure have wasted a lot of your time in this thread...
Nope don't plan on taking the class.
I do have a lot to learn, but not so much from this class. I thought it sounded intriguing until I started listening to the rationale.
Indeed I have trained to the point I know what's best for me. Heaven forbid.
Okay, I'm curious regarding this using your fingers to
"press-check" the bolt on an AR. Is it to ensure a round did feed from the magazine, or to insure that the bolt is fully in battery?
If the former, why not just do it the easy way; look at the magazine before inserting it, and note which side of the feed lips the top cartridge is on. Lock and load, pull the mag out, look again. If the top round is now on the OTHER side... there ya go.
.
PlasticGuy 12-18-2006, 13:27 When will the class start? Do you know roughly what the cost will be for the "standard" configuration rifle and tuition?
For the record, I've been impressed by how professionally this thread has been handled by the people who will be involved in this class. Dealing with the harassment of a non-customer with grace and tact is not an easy thing.
c4igrant 12-18-2006, 13:39 Originally posted by LSP972
Okay, I'm curious regarding this using your fingers to
"press-check" the bolt on an AR. Is it to ensure a round did feed from the magazine, or to insure that the bolt is fully in battery?
If the former, why not just do it the easy way; look at the magazine before inserting it, and note which side of the feed lips the top cartridge is on. Lock and load, pull the mag out, look again. If the top round is now on the OTHER side... there ya go.
.
You are feeling for the round in the chamber. The same thing is accouplished by feeling if the round has changed sides in the mag. Also remember, that you cann see in the dark so that is why you alwasy practice using your fingers and not your eyes.
C4
c4igrant 12-18-2006, 13:41 Originally posted by PlasticGuy
When will the class start? Do you know roughly what the cost will be for the "standard" configuration rifle and tuition?
For the record, I've been impressed by how professionally this thread has been handled by the people who will be involved in this class. Dealing with the harassment of a non-customer with grace and tact is not an easy thing.
I am not sure that anyone is being "harassed", but we are engaged in an adult conversation about gear selection and why. I think "critter" is a good guy trying to do a good thing. The more people that actually know how their AR works and how to build them, the better off we will be.
C4
Originally posted by LSP972
If the former, why not just do it the easy way; look at the magazine before inserting it, and note which side of the feed lips the top cartridge is on. Lock and load, pull the mag out, look again. If the top round is now on the OTHER side... there ya go.
That is a valid way of doing business and I've seen it taught. The other way is to pull the bolt back and feel for the round and then rechamber it.
Both have their pluses and minuses. For instance, the magazine method increases your chances of not seating the magazine properly. The other method increases you chance of not placing the weapon fully into battery. Proper technique mitigates either method.
All things being equal, I think the chamber-check method is faster.
Originally posted by PlasticGuy
When will the class start? Do you know roughly what the cost will be for the "standard" configuration rifle and tuition?
For the record, I've been impressed by how professionally this thread has been handled by the people who will be involved in this class. Dealing with the harassment of a non-customer with grace and tact is not an easy thing.
Thanks for the interest and comments. I normally do try to be tactful and actually appreciative of people like this, it has driven a lot of interest to the class and gives me the chance to answer questions that I didn't even know existed. Runing these classes online in a private forum I am just used to people valueing their own time more than just trying to bomb a thread, but I've been around the block enough times to be able to deal with it okay. Lemons into lemaonaide anyone?
Grant, I don't think PG was speaking of you actually, I'm sure it was the other fellow, the same fellow that would be "That Guy" at the training class. We both know that there is more than one method with sound values, some people that get all of their education from the interweb and do not seek any out 'hands on' will never get it. I know better about you.I'm afraid the point of the education of the class just got lost on a few people.
PG, I've sent you a PM. Be well.
I directed Tiger's atention to the threads... the following are his words -
_________________________________________________
"General comments. From what I've seen these comments may be helpful.
Forward Assists from "The Black Rifle" pg 126-130
"In any case the Army would not back down on the need for a manual bolt
closure on the AR15 and states its case with eloquence and
determination ...
Stoner:
"I was always afraid of a bolt closure device myself, because when you
get a cartridge that won't seat in a rifle and you deliberately drive
it in usually you are buying yourself more trouble."
Quote from Bill Davis, involved in project:
"(The forward assist) is less likely to clear a stoppage by immediate
action than to turn an easily clearable stoppage into a virtually
unclearable one."
The Air Force, first ones to adopt rifle, were against forward assist.
Stated "no record of malfunctions that could have been corrected by use
of a manual bolt closing device."
Marines also found it "non-essential."
Some A1s had them, some didn't, depends on when it was produced.
Weapon mounted lights.
A good idea, but limiting. Light always pointing same place as muzzle,
sometimes not a good idea. You want to hold suspect, but shine light
in other areas of concern, or you want to put light on suspect, but it
doesn't warrant covering them with muzzle. I've had several times
where I was forced to deal with trespassers when we first moved into
new place. For example when interviewing suspects I like to keep light
in their eyes. With weapon light this means I point muzzle at their
head, and my arms and rifle keep me from seeing what their hands are
doing. Plus hand held light can be positioned on left or right
depending on what direction corner or cover you are working. Last if
you do have weapon mounted light you must know how to work hand held.
IE my situation where I have 10 possible threats to deal with and light
on rifle goes out after 3 seconds. (Bulb blows) Luckily I have
multiple lights with me. I use both weapon mounted AND handheld depending
on the situation.
As Bill has stated this class is to learn how to build rifles. There
are a lot of people build parts guns. Some of them work, some don't.
Although ARs appear simple, to assemble a reliable rifle isn't as easy
as putting a bunch of parts together.
Stocks, and blah blah blah. This rifle is just what I've found works
best for multiple purposes and without having to worry about buttons,
levers, switches, batteries, ect. As Clint Smith says, "The space
shuttle blew up twice," meaning they spent a whole lot more money on it
and it failed, anything on your weapon is subject to failure. The less
there is the less there is to break or fail.
Sights. I love iron. When I get older and the eyes start to go,
probably any day now, I'll switch to my choice of optic. For most
engagements, within 30 yds even with a rifle, iron will work for me.
If you are in the military, I'm not, this may be a completely
different application.
This exercise may not be for you. If not then build the rifle you
want. If you want to build a reliable weapon that will work for almost
anything you or I will be involved in, and learn how to build it and
maintain it, then I think this is a great project.
Originally posted by dport
Both have their pluses and minuses. For instance, the magazine method increases your chances of not seating the magazine properly. The other method increases you chance of not placing the weapon fully into battery. Proper technique mitigates either method.
All things being equal, I think the chamber-check method is faster.
It probably is faster; but I remember "cracking the bolt" (partially retracting it, except using the charging handle) to ensure there was no water trapped in the bore from capillary action after the rifle had been immersed; and then having to use the forward assist to fully close the bolt. Mayhaps the army knew why they wanted that feature???
Interesting discussion; I suppose we are all creatures of our past experiences. Personally, I think I'll stay with the magazine check upon initial loading, and apply immediate action if it doesn't go bang after a reload...;)
.
c4igrant 12-19-2006, 09:03 I agree with Tiger's comments (especially about lights). You HAVE to carry a handheld because you simply cannot point your weapon at everything you need to look at. This simply comes down to proper low light/no light training.
As far as the forward assist goes, the only thing that it should be used for is after a press check. Trying to force a round into the chamber is never a good idea. Like most things, I would prefer to have it and never need it then to not have it.
C4
PlasticGuy 12-19-2006, 11:51 Grant, my comment was not directed toward you at all. There is a fine line between valuable discussion and harassment, but you are clearly on the valuable side of that scale.
I have a couple small variations on what I would do to my rifle also, but I think Critter is 100% right on what makes a good rifle, and 90% right on what my personal preferences would be. He's already made it clear to everybody that the 10% difference in personal taste can be addressed to suit the individual student. That's good enough for me, and should be good enough for anyone.
Brown Hawk 12-19-2006, 13:01 The whole idea is very interesting. But for those that cannot take the class for whatever reason, how about a DVD that at least has the basic education, reasoning behind the tool and parts selection, and assembly instructions.
Hawk
:wavey: Alleged harasser here.
Gentlemen this class is very fascinating in that it is leveraging an unconventional medium for this sort of class. A little background, I'm in the Navy, currently in Navy training, and we are exploring the boundaries of computer based training. Also, I'm in an online master's program. So any type of web/computer based training draws my attention.
This has the potential to be very instructional for those who are uncomfortable with building an AR just based on written instructions. It also has a very high chance of being successful because it is very possible to build an AR just on written instructions. I know many people who have, and personally, I have built or rebuilt 4 ARs just based on written instructions. No doubt those who enroll in this course will get their money's worth in that they will have a complete AR built by their own hands at the end of the course.
I also understand the concept behind the KISS AR. In fact, I have a Bushmaster A1-type upper (with forward assist and brass deflector) a Superlight barrel and a simple collapsible stock. This AR has been built and rebuilt several times until it has reached its current configuration. Nothing wrong with a KISS carbine.
As for the lack of a brass deflector, like I said most shooters are right-handed and do not take into account what may or may not be desirable for lefties. Proper extractor tension should mitigate the potential problem for lefties. I'll tell you what though, one of the most fun times I have had shooting was with an old AR-10 that burned the crap out of my right cheek.
On to the controversy. Yes you can use the indent on the bolt carrier as a forward assist, and yes it may have even been the original design intent. However, one thing top AR trainers, like Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers, will tell you is that the AR will run dirty as long as it is properly lubed. In fact, some Larry Vickers' students invented the term "Vickers' lube" to describe a bolt carrier group almost dripping with lube. Under such circumstances, or when using gloves, you may not get the grip or purchase on the bolt carrier group needed to use the indent as a forward assist. It is, after all, a smooth part. In my experience, under those circumstances gloves or liberally lubed, it has been an iffy thing, and I'm a lefty shooter who can easily use his strongest digit, the thumb, to manipulate the bolt carrier. In fact, it's quite accessible if I use a magazine well hold. Also the idea that you'll use the forward assist to ram a round when it shouldn't be forced is a matter of training. We have anecdotal evidence that proper training in the use of the forward assist allowed PFC Miller to engage the enemy when his gun wouldn't function right. Given these , and other, reasons and the fact that the whole forward assist assembly weighs just a few ounces, I believe it is a vital component of the AR. One that brings with it a negligible penalty.
I realize that questioning the reasoning of the class's instructor may seem like harassment. It is not intended that way. Sound reasoning should hold up to intense questioning and criticism. My points were not addressed, instead I was told I was on a different page.
Like I said, I'm sure those who enroll will get their money's worth, and I'm sure it will be a worthwhile course for the intended audience.
I'm truly humbled dport, I took a lot of things the wrong way and apologize. :cheers:
Originally posted by Brown Hawk
The whole idea is very interesting. But for those that cannot take the class for whatever reason, how about a DVD that at least has the basic education, reasoning behind the tool and parts selection, and assembly instructions.
Hawk
It is something we have knocked around but don't quite have the formula down for this. Everything we have seen on the market has left quite a lot to be desired in the 1911 field anyway's. This doesn't mean that it won't happen as we do have access to television grade equipment and other video means, it's just that with the still camera we can get better shots and angles at this time.
The photo's that we take are high resolution, and the quantity of them makes it impracticable to put into print, so we are still not 'there' yet for that venue.
The internet lends itself well for this type of teaching as we do it in the format most people are used to. The class is given in a message board style format. You not only are going to get the theory, read: the boring facts, but we go through each step, one at a time, with appropriate text and labled pictures. Students have commented that they could do the courses on pictures alone. The other benefit is 24/7 support where each student benefits form the others questions posted, and if someone gets off of his second shift job and finds himself in a bind at 2AM, I'm only a phone call away.
I guess what I'm saying is don't give up hope, but even at it's best a DVD will not cover things like this class will.
Brown Hawk 12-19-2006, 18:30 Originally posted by Critter
I guess what I'm saying is don't give up hope, but even at it's best a DVD will not cover things like this class will.
I wouldn't really expect it to cover as well as the class. Basics of reasoning, tricks of the trade, yes. That in itself would be a good education. And since some people do much better visually than they do with written instructions, it would open build your own to that group.
And don't write off using stills. I have seen a few presentations that used stills which made the point very well.
Sounds like a fun class, and I hope it works well for you and all who attend.
Hawk
1811guy2 12-19-2006, 19:16 I think I am going to go "old school" with my next car and keep it minimalist. I am going to go for wooden wagon wheels with rawhide straps, no suspension springs (fewer parts = more reliability), and no electronics. I am tired of those new-fangled doo-dads like radial tires, windshield wipers, and upholstered seats. All of those parts just increase the likelihood that something will go wrong and decrease reliability. If a man knows how to drive he doesn't need disc brakes, independent suspension, or starter motors.
Hmmm... while I understand what you are trying to get at, I'd say that it is a difficult comparison.
The "suggested" rifle configuration -
1. Will launch .223 rounds as fast as any other 16" barrel carbine
2. Can match the same rate of fire as any other semi-auto
3. Is as reliable (or more so) than anything you can buy on the open market
4. Has the same capacity
5. Is as inheretly accurate as any other lightweight
So with the same "top speed", the same "acceleration", the same "fuel tank", and so forth, I personally think it is a matter of the operator.
I think a better analogy might be a "limited" class gun versus and "open" gun. I've seen plenty of "limited" shooters spank "open" guys because of their skill level. At the highest levels, "open" guns are the fastest, but the people "behind the wheel" fire 100,000 rounds a year.
If their life depended on it, what do you think those guys would pick up - the open gun or the limited gun?
Life is like a box of chocolates... :2gun: grab both, learn both, have fun with both!
Originally posted by 1811guy2
I think I am going to go "old school" with my next car and keep it minimalist. I am going to go for wooden wagon wheels with rawhide straps, no suspension springs (fewer parts = more reliability), and no electronics. I am tired of those new-fangled doo-dads like radial tires, windshield wipers, and upholstered seats. All of those parts just increase the likelihood that something will go wrong and decrease reliability. If a man knows how to drive he doesn't need disc brakes, independent suspension, or starter motors.
Now that's hardcore. I never considered a flintlock or muzzleloader class, but if you generate enough interst, I'm there.
DJ Niner 12-20-2006, 00:32 Parts wear, extractor springs/D-rings tension change over time, ammo pressure varies. Still think ALL of these guns need a brass deflector. Wish it wasn't so; I can appreciate the clean lines of a slick-side upper, and as a lefty I can tell you I've gotten my share of brass deflector bumps and forward assist knobs in the ribs from a slung weapon. A case in your eye WILL take your eye off the ball; serious distractions are very unwelcome when the poop hits the blower.
Liken' the overall concept more and more, however.
DJ - point taken... I suppose the only real solution is to be aware and change out said parts when ejection starts to head rearward. Probably good preventative practive anyway as those are the parts that wear/break anyway. Shouldn't be to costly.
Ammo pressure is what it is, can't really account for that.
I'd be curious to know if anyone made an A1 with no FA but with a brass deflector...
DJ Niner 12-20-2006, 02:00 I'm not aware of one, but I'll keep my eyes open.
I think Les Baer makes a flattop with a brass deflector and no FA. That's the closest I've seen.
DJ Niner 12-21-2006, 01:02 Sure enough!
There's a single pic of it on this page, near the bottom:
http://www.lesbaer.com/ar223.html
And there are prices on this page, but the descriptions seem to be a bit muddled:
http://www.lesbaer.com/pricnga.html
Looks to be about $112-$129, if I'm reading it right (and if it's written right).
Also available as raw forgings, for those of you who want a winter project!
:shocked: :supergrin:
Originally posted by DJ Niner
Also available as raw forgings, for those of you who want a winter project!
:shocked: :supergrin:
Now that would be one heck of a Dremel Project. 21st Century whittling on the back porch!
PlasticGuy 12-23-2006, 11:54 Adding optics or a match trigger does not make an AR top quality. It makes it a basic AR with optics and a match trigger. The AR's we're discussing in this thread drop the bolt-on extras, but offer much more to the guy who can see below the skin.
I have been shooting and instructing others on shooting AR's for a while now. I've researched the construction quite a bit, reading most common AR reference material. I've also noted what parts failed on what brands of AR's in the classes I've taken and taught. I've even had lengthy conversations with some experienced friends of mine about the mechanics of AR's, including a military armorer and a Sheriff's department armorer. With all that, the 15 minutes I spent talking to Bill on the phone was an eye opener. I couldn't believe there was that much I didn't know about AR-15 construction, and the difference between civilian and military construction.
Our conversation convinced me that this class will teach a lot more than just how to assemble an AR-15. That is the basis for the class, but there's a lot more to it than just that. I'll be sending my first installment the day I get back from Christmas vacation. Thanks, Bill. I haven't been this excited about a gun related class in a long time.
WARNING!
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL827/1560122/3151166/214579488.jpg
PG, great to hear. I was recently told the AR was "just a lego set"... :upeyes:
PlasticGuy 12-26-2006, 11:11 Originally posted by pangris
PG, great to hear. I was recently told the AR was "just a lego set"... :upeyes:
It is interesting to hear how people view the AR-15, isn't it? A lot of people view being able to build an AR-15 as a "true or false" question. Either you know where the parts go, or you don't (in their minds).
It's not nearly that simple. I guess it can be if you want it to be, but there's so much more out there. I don't want to know how to build the Lego version of an AR-15. I want to know how to build a really good one. I could learn the Lego version from a book. This class is an opportunity to take one or two huge steps past that basic level, and to really understand how and why the AR-15 works.
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