View Full Version : ARs and Optics
Are 1x red dot scopes a help or hinderance at across the room distances? Would it be practical to employ a 2MOA red dot against an 8" diameter target at 400 yards, or would that distance pose problems for an unmagnified scope?
Does anyone have experience with fixed lower power scopes in the 1.5x to 2.5x range, such as the compact ACOGs or the 1.5x Swarovski on the AUG? At what distance does it become practical to use the optics for fast reflex type shooting? Thanks in advance.
MrMurphy
12-15-2006, 14:09
Aimpoints at room distance are a major help.
Just to give you a clue, today i had 13 guys covered by my M4, and trying to keep an eye on 13 guys and still keep your weapon at the low ready is a serious pain with irons... with the dot, i had both eyes open and the dot sort of hovering in my lower field of view. The guys were about 10 yards away.
For room to room, inside the room sort of stuff, they make hits extremely fast and reliable.
400 yards on an 8" target is a bit far for a nonmagnified scope even with a small dot. You could probably do it but a 2X or 4X like an ACOG would do better.
Thank you Mr. Murphy for the great information. I am trying to get a feel for the speed and practical range of the various optics available for the AR. I am now much closer to a decision than I was before. :)
Originally posted by WayneM
Does anyone have experience with fixed lower power scopes in the 1.5x to 2.5x range, such as the compact ACOGs or the 1.5x Swarovski on the AUG? At what distance does it become practical to use the optics for fast reflex type shooting? Thanks in advance.
Personally, I don't like them... they seem to just end up not doing either job very well.
I can shoot an 8" plate at 300 yards w/ my EOTech using the 1 MOA dot inside the reticle. a 1.5 or 2 mag just doesn't seem to add anything.
4x gives you the ability to see detail in the target a little better.
jrs93accord
12-15-2006, 18:16
Originally posted by WayneM
Thank you Mr. Murphy for the great information. I am trying to get a feel for the speed and practical range of the various optics available for the AR. I am now much closer to a decision than I was before. :)
What is the decision you are trying to make?
1811guy2
12-16-2006, 05:41
I think Mr. Murphy's point about both eyes open is the main advantage of a red dot sight. It is not a telescopic sight, and it isn't intended at all for target shooting or long range accuracy. It is for giving the shooter an andvantage in a CQB environment.
c4igrant
12-16-2006, 08:49
A quality optic (like Aimpoint and EOTech) are a great help (especially in CQB). I am also a big fan of variable powered optics and so is the military. Naval EOD runs the Trijicon TR21 in a LaRue Tactical SPR-EER mount and Delta runs the S&B Short Dot in a LT SPR mount. With a little training, you can learn to run a variable optic at CQB distances.
Here is a review I did awhile back on some variable powered optics: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104
C4
IF Delta EXISTED they would run the S&B Short Dot in a LT SPR mount
Fixed it for ya Grant.;)
c4igrant
12-16-2006, 09:25
Originally posted by Rob96
Fixed it for ya Grant.;)
LOL, the even funnier part is that they no longer go by "Delta" (not that name even existed any way). :supergrin:
C4
Thank you everyone for the great replies. As for what I am trying to decide, I am looking to buy a some new optics to help my aging eyes. My current glass is a Leupold 2.5x IER, but I want something suited for the AR.
Most of my shooting is snap shooting at close ranges, so low to no magnification and two eyes open is the order of the day. I vaguely recall a post by someone in another forum describing this technique using a variable zoom glass scope set to low power (1.5x if I recall). I imagine this technique works with the low power ACOGs as well, but I want to hear if anyone has tried this.
As you might guess from my first post, I am primarily looking at the Aimpoint M3 2MOA or the Compact ACOGs in 1.5x to 2.5x. Some of the newer illuminated variable scopes look cool too. :)
A guy has the 1.5x compact acogs with amber dots for sale on surplus in the Gun Parts & Accessories for a decent price, if you want to check them out.
MrMurphy
12-16-2006, 16:18
The Compact ACOG in 1.5X might do the trick.
Also the Aimpoint with the flip-away 2X zoom is an option.. dot for closer ranges, dot with zoom for further out.
Originally posted by c4igrant
LOL, the even funnier part is that they no longer go by "Delta" (not that name even existed any way). :supergrin:
C4
SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! We will have to put you on double secret probation. There is no such thing as Black Hats, CAG, Blue, Delta, D-Boys, or SEAL Team 6, or whatever other branch group you may cite.:whistling:
jrs93accord
12-16-2006, 17:43
WayneM,
If you are considering the Aimpoint ML3, the 2MOA is recommended if you are going to use a magnifier (2x-3x) with it. The 4MOA version is preferred for non-magnified use. The ACOG would be an excellent choice also.
The Elcan SpecterDR looks interesting but I can't find published specs on the optics. Anyone familiar with this scope?
c4igrant
12-17-2006, 12:16
Originally posted by WayneM
The Elcan SpecterDR looks interesting but I can't find published specs on the optics. Anyone familiar with this scope?
Owned one for awhile. They have some issues and typically go for around $1,200.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Elcan/DR%20close%20up.JPG
Grant, can you elaborate on the "issues" with the Elcan DR. I really like the concept, but by appearance only, the execution of contstruction looks poorly thought out.
With the darn things being so scarce, I can not get a hands on feel of one. But I can imagine that there are issues with the mount, since it also incorporates the scope adjustments.
c4igrant
12-17-2006, 14:43
Originally posted by biggl35
Grant, can you elaborate on the "issues" with the Elcan DR. I really like the concept, but by appearance only, the execution of contstruction looks poorly thought out.
With the darn things being so scarce, I can not get a hands on feel of one. But I can imagine that there are issues with the mount, since it also incorporates the scope adjustments.
Sure, but I think KevinB's (Canadian SF) covers it here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2013
I have also spoken the Naval EOD (who evaluated these). The FOV was their biggest complaint (along with the ARMS mount).
I will be honest and say that this optic COULD be the best damn optic on the planet (if it was executed properly). I wanted in the worst way to like it, but it fell short for me in a couple ways. First, the eye relief on 1X SUCKS! Its like using a 4X ACOG. :upeyes: There is NO WAY that it is a true 1X (more like 1.5 or worse). You have to shoot nose to charging handle on 4X to get the full FOV. I don't like to shoot that way so it was a deal killer.
I will check these out again at SS and see if they made any improvements (like going to a LT mount).
C4
Is the Acog the optic with the polorizing ring on the front? I tried a fellows AR last week-end during a MEU(SOC) Qualifier and got to the last string of the Second evolution and I guess I bumped it, pulled up the rifle and it looked like I was looking through heavily tinted window. Still made my hits since we were so close, but at 15 yards O would have been out of the game. Maybe it was a different optic, I dunno.
I'll stick with Aimpoints or EO's when I run them, although a buddy of mine has a really cool Nightforce scope on his Noveske...........
If eyes are an issue, I'd get a 2 MOA aimpoint in a new york second.
I have been playing with this for awhile, but I am by no means an expert.
It looks like the EOTech is great for close range stuff. I should be able to do minute of human at 100 yards. But with out my backup irons, I don't think the minute of human is possible at 100yards.
I have a 6-24 scope that is an exceptional ground hog killer (100yrds+).
What I have been struggeling with is the intermediate/all purpose sights.
I was playing with a cheap 4-10 scope over the weekend, I and I think it may be an answer. If I don't have to get up close and personal and don't need to go over 200-300 yards.
I have also considered putting a dangerous game scope on my rifle. Maybe a 1-6X with a German post. I need one of these for my 458WM, so I think I will try this on the AR.
c4igrant
12-18-2006, 08:23
Originally posted by Critter
Is the Acog the optic with the polorizing ring on the front? I tried a fellows AR last week-end during a MEU(SOC) Qualifier and got to the last string of the Second evolution and I guess I bumped it, pulled up the rifle and it looked like I was looking through heavily tinted window. Still made my hits since we were so close, but at 15 yards O would have been out of the game. Maybe it was a different optic, I dunno.
I'll stick with Aimpoints or EO's when I run them, although a buddy of mine has a really cool Nightforce scope on his Noveske...........
The Reflex CAN have the polarizing filter on it (can remove it). The ACOG's do not. The Relfex suffers from washout issues so the filter helps with this. It is however a lesser optic when compared to the Aimpoint and EOTech.
C4
WOW
Grant thanks for the link.
That pretty much went right along with my assumption about the mount.
However, I dont even think LT can fix the issue.
YOU DONT PUT EXTERNAL ADJUSTMENTS ON A BATTLE OPTIC
I bet Trijicon could, if they so desired, come up with a pretty good offering. But why should they, their current battle optics are doing so well.
Hell, I bet AimPoint might come up with something better than what Elcan has, and they are not really known for magnified optics at all.
Originally posted by c4igrant
The Reflex CAN have the polarizing filter on it (can remove it). The ACOG's do not. The Relfex suffers from washout issues so the filter helps with this. It is however a lesser optic when compared to the Aimpoint and EOTech.
C4
Well, whatever it was, I liked it right up until that point. I have both the EO's and AimPoints, and think I even like the AP's between the two of them when I do choose an optic.
c4igrant
12-19-2006, 09:14
Originally posted by biggl35
WOW
Grant thanks for the link.
That pretty much went right along with my assumption about the mount.
However, I dont even think LT can fix the issue.
YOU DONT PUT EXTERNAL ADJUSTMENTS ON A BATTLE OPTIC
I bet Trijicon could, if they so desired, come up with a pretty good offering. But why should they, their current battle optics are doing so well.
Hell, I bet AimPoint might come up with something better than what Elcan has, and they are not really known for magnified optics at all.
There is a rumor that Aimpoint is going to show something off at the SS. Don't know anything else about it.
C4
Mnukedude
12-19-2006, 10:24
Originally posted by c4igrant
The Reflex CAN have the polarizing filter on it (can remove it). The ACOG's do not. The Relfex suffers from washout issues so the filter helps with this. It is however a lesser optic when compared to the Aimpoint and EOTech.
C4
Yes, the dreaded blue haze is a pain with Reflex optics. I'd say the best thing about them is that they are one of the lightest options going in terms of weight, and require little maintainence (no batteries to change), although I hear the newer Aimpoints are getting battery life that is so long it's stupid.
Grant, does Trijicon replace tritium in their older optics when it goes dim?
c4igrant
12-19-2006, 10:28
Originally posted by Mnukedude
Yes, the dreaded blue haze is a pain with Reflex optics. I'd say the best thing about them is that they are one of the lightest options going in terms of weight, and require little maintainence (no batteries to change), although I hear the newer Aimpoints are getting battery life that is so long it's stupid.
Grant, does Trijicon replace tritium in their older optics when it goes dim?
The new Aimpoint's have 50K worth of run time. Concerns about battery life is a thing of the past.
Trijicon will replenish spent Tritium in their optics (for a fee).
C4
Thanks again everyone. Rather than wait for the perfect optic to appear, I decided upon the Aimpoint M3L 2MOA. Can anyone recommend a sturdy lower third co-witness mount with a flippy type attachment lever?
c4igrant
12-19-2006, 11:45
Originally posted by WayneM
Thanks again everyone. Rather than wait for the perfect optic to appear, I decided upon the Aimpoint M3L 2MOA. Can anyone recommend a sturdy lower third co-witness mount with a flippy type attachment lever?
LaRue Tactical is about the best.
I have package deals if interested: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&searchstart=9&category=PKGS
C4
What Grant said.
Go Larue
Mnukedude
12-19-2006, 13:08
Originally posted by c4igrant
The new Aimpoint's have 50K worth of run time. Concerns about battery life is a thing of the past.
Trijicon will replenish spent Tritium in their optics (for a fee).
C4
How much is the fee?
c4igrant
12-19-2006, 15:06
Originally posted by Mnukedude
How much is the fee?
Depends. Usually around $100-$300. Remember that you will get about 12-15 years out of them. My guess is that technology will have changes so drastically that you most likely will NOT replenish the Tritium.
C4
jrs93accord
12-19-2006, 16:38
Originally posted by WayneM
Thanks again everyone. Rather than wait for the perfect optic to appear, I decided upon the Aimpoint M3L 2MOA. Can anyone recommend a sturdy lower third co-witness mount with a flippy type attachment lever?
A.R.M.S. #40
http://www.armsmounts.com/catalog.php?action=110&cat_id=4
Troy Industries Rear Folding Battle Sight
http://www.troyind.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=42
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