View Full Version : 10mm--The Thinking Man's Cartridge.........
Photocop 12-21-2006, 14:23 I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I read thread after thread after thread on this site about people debating caliber choice and there's always the capacity vs. bullet power debate; e.g. 9mm vs. .45 GAP, M1911, etc. The answer to this debate, as we intelligent gunners here on the 10 Ring already know, is the G20 in 10mm!! Superior ballistics with exceptional capacity.
What is the reason for the mindless aversion to the mighty 10mm that so many people seem to possess on this site? I recently responded to another thread about the .45 GAP and opined that the 10mm is the answer to all of these questions of debate and said "Long live the 10mm!" of course somebody has to reply, "Not in my gunsafe!" as if the 10mm is an infectious disease or something. This statement almost implies that 10mm is a bad choice to anybody that isn't smart enough to know better.
I know all about the "bad rap" that the 10mm got as a result of the wimpy FBI agents in the early 90's, but give me a damn break!! When you consider the versatility of the cartridge for its wide range of bullet weights, muzzle energies, hunting applications, etc., and then factor in the fact that it's a meaner round than any 9, .40, or .45; why is it such a maligned caliber? It just does not make any sense to me. People not only opt for other calibers most of the time, but they take a great deal of delight in bashing our beloved cartridge. I don't bash .45's, I just like the 10mm better for obvious reasons. I wish the 10 bashers would knock it off because it makes them look ignorant. If you're too much of a wuss to handle the recoil of a G20, then you probably have no business shooting guns in the first place. I love the statements like "After about fifty rounds, the G20 is just too punishing to the hand and is downright unpleasant to shoot". Who's hands do these people have? A malnourished third grader's? If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser.
A while back I shot an IDPA match and used my G20 with DoubleTap practice loads (180 gr. @ 1250 fps) which are pretty spicy, but not as hot as the defense ammo. Still much spicier than the 9mm and .40 stuff that most guys shoot. I'm a pretty good shooter and the range instructor after I finished a really good round saw me gathering my mags, etc. and said, "You shot that with a 10mm!?! Damn!!" As if the 10mm is so violently uncontrollable that it was outrageous to even think that a person could be competitive with such a ridiculously unmanageable cartridge with so much "wasted and unnecessary energy" as the critics and "9 is fine" crowd like to claim. It was just another case of collossal ignorance in the world of handguns and ballistics. What was frightening is that this is a guy who is around guns all the time---not some nimrod in the civilian world who has no experience with firearms.
It is for these reasons that I truly believe that people like us that know and love the 10mm for all of its great atrributes are more thoughtful and analytical gunners than the rest of the "get what everybody else gets" crowd. Availability of ammunition is about the only valid reason that I can think of that gives any anti-10mm'er any leg to stand on, but even that argument is pretty weak considering the availability of ammo online and the cheap .40 barrels that you can use for practice like I do. Grip size might be a valid argument as well, but people still bash the 10mm when it's in single stacked 1911 platforms where grip size is not an issue. It's lunacy.
I'm guessing that I'm not alone here in my sentiments here on the 10 Ring. But it would be just nice to hear some affirmation from some of the 10mm brothers. Please comment.
......This is just my anti-anti-10mm rant for today. Please discuss........
Amen brother! You said it all.
nickE10mm 12-21-2006, 16:34 I agree with your "Thinking Man's" analogy.... very nice. Preach on brother :banana:
I can understand that some people may, in fact, have a problem with 10mm recoil... or .40 recoil...or .45 recoil or 9mm for that matter. I do, however, think that the BASHING of any caliber is lunacy. I enjoy having the choice of calibers and I enjoy other calibers other than 10mm, but I don't bash the calibers that I don't use.
I see your point and agree.
I have limited expierance with the Glock line but not with pistols/revo's in general. I bought a G19 and two weeks later picked up a G20.The 20 is turning out to be my hunting pistol.(My Desert Eagle is put away pending sale.)The 10mm round is pretty versatile if you ask me. It will load way down or way up.
Thanks to DT, ammo is in great supply. Their practice ammo(the 180gr) is really not all that expensive when you figure that Blazer cost $13.per 50 at Academy. Also the "practice"stuff is right up there with DT's hunting loads at most of the gun stores(where everything is full retail).Remington green box,180gr FMJ is $21 at Wally World.
The very best thing that could happen too(for) me is have Glock come out with a mid sized,single stack,10mm.Of course it would have to be OD for me to buy it seein' that the OD weapons ALWAYS (!) shoot better. -----
G20man32904 12-21-2006, 17:41 A picture speaks a thousand words? :supergrin:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/g20man/10mmnot40sw.jpg
People bash because they don't know any better. I get the same thing about Smith and Wesson autos, which by the way happens to also be a great 10mm platform. I hear about how inaccurate they are, how unreliable they are and most of all "they will never be as good as my Sig".
I wish we could get more weapons chambered in this most wonderful of all pistol calibers. If the FBI had stuck with it, I think it would have gone places. I can't understand why an agency that carried a 3 inch .357 magnum revolver as an issued weapon would have trouble with recoil out of a 1076, other than the fact that most agents probably carried .38s in their issue .357s.
Originally posted by Photocop
Availability of ammunition is about the only valid reason that I can think of that gives any anti-10mm'er any leg to stand on...
The only thing holding me back is the commonness of 10mm brass at the ranges I go to. 9, 40, and 45 are common enough that I can add to the brass collection and not have to worry about losing any that I'm shooting. 10mm is more of a rare bird.
For me, a 10mm Glock 29 with a .40 barrel to shoot the cheap stuff is pretty much heaven. :supergrin: It's EVERYTHING I want in a handgun. Ridiculously powerful, ridiculously durable, easy to maintain, reliable, and concealable. I have it all. :supergrin:
Thinking?
Headache.
:animlol: :animlol:
mmc45414 12-21-2006, 19:15 Originally posted by G20man32904
A picture speaks a thousand words? :supergrin:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/g20man/10mmnot40sw.jpg Hmmmmm, Wonder why there is so much 10mm bashing? Mr Pot, Kettle on line one… I think the problem might be the “one and only” approach some take. I have five pistols chambered in the Short & Weak. The max listed 155g load of Hodgdon Longshot leaves my G35 (more portable than a G20) at ~1450fps. If this were a .357mag, it would be considered Thor’s Hammer, but since it was derived from a more powerful cartridge instead of a less powerful one it is considered to be for wimps and pansies.
Before I am accused of being a troll, I came to this thread because I want a G20, but I don’t plan to sell off my forties.
DavidinSA 12-21-2006, 19:24 It really is interesting the perception out there among knowledgeable shooters about the 10mm.
I plan to shoot this summer when I get out of school in IDPA with my G20.
Telling the club that just got me many strange looks and comments about it being so unmanageable to shoot.
I am recoil sensitive and have adapted well to the G20.
It is my favorite to shoot and I rarely shoot any of my other guns except for my 22LR guns. (my favorite cartridge)
Anyway, once you shoot one you realize how well designed the G20 is and how it tames the cartridge.
It shoots easier than my G27 by far and all I really shoot is DT loads.
If more people were exposed to the 10mm, there would be less apprehension towards it.
Moral of the story, let everyone shoot your 10mm that you possibly can and maybe we can get more converts.
my 2 cents
David
G20man32904 12-21-2006, 21:13 Originally posted by mmc45414
Hmmmmm, Wonder why there is so much 10mm bashing? Mr Pot, Kettle on line one…
Lighten up Francis,:headscratch: it is only a joke. :wavey:
mmc45414 12-21-2006, 21:31 Originally posted by G20man32904
Lighten up Francis,:headscratch: it is only a joke. :wavey: OK, you caught me taking things too seriously.
I just think it is all good. I guess I get a bit frustrated with some of what I consider to be “this is good, other stuff is bad” threads. I want a 10mm, but then, I want it all… :supergrin:
SilverState 12-21-2006, 21:44 I like my 10mm Glock 20, Delta Elite, and Kimber Stainless Target. I am also thinking about trading my .45acp STI Trojan for a .40 STI Trojan and having it chambered for the 10mm.
However, the .45acp has been successfully killing people for over a hundred years. So I have nothing against that round. Plus, it is more available, less expensive, and more pistols are offered in that caliber.
Lastly, if I was in a questionable self-defense situation, I would rather explain my choice of .45acp caliber than my choice of 10mm. I am not saying that something like that should be an issue, but such is life.
That being said, I also shoot other calibers at the range, but do not prefer a smaller caliber for self-defense.
sigdeputy 12-21-2006, 22:57 I don't have any experience with the Glock 10mm, but I have shot the Delta Elite, and presently own a Kimber Custom Stainless Target in 10mm. I went to the range the other day and shot 150 rounds, including 50 rounds of DT's 180gr Gold Dot's, and I did not have any complaints about it hurting my hand. Hell, I would have shot more, but I ran out of ammo! It shoots like a dream and is accurate as hell.
I do believe one of the reasons people like to bash it is because of the price of ammo. It's not a cheap gun to shoot if you don't reload. I don't, so I pay nearly $20 for a box of FMJ practice ammo. My little trip to the range the other day cost me $67 in ammo. Compare that to the price of 9mm, .40 & .45 ACP. It's more than double the price. I don't mind because I also own other guns in different calbers.
Anyone who thinks it is not the ideal defense round needs to take a hard look at the real facts. Not some FBI myth or legend.
Double Tap's 180gr Gold Dot HP is loaded to 1300 FPS, and produces 676 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, out of a 4.6" Glock 20. Now, put that in a 5" 1911, like my Kimber or the Delta Elite, and you are looking at nearly 700 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Let's see you do that with a 9mm, .40 or .45 ACP!!
It does seem to be one of the few calibers that creates either a love or hate reaction. Me, I love it. The Kimber 10mm has replaced my Colt L/W Commander as my duty gun.
Loaded, of course, with DT's 180gr Gold Dots!!:hearts:
SilverState 12-21-2006, 23:39 Originally posted by sigdeputy
Anyone who thinks it is not the ideal defense round needs to take a hard look at the real facts. Not some FBI myth or legend.
Are you referring to ballistics or have you considered explaining your choice of ammo in a situation where you are claiming self-defense and are being charged with murder?
In the latter, it is easier to explain .45acp.
Again, not saying that's how it should be, but such is life.
anarchocap 12-22-2006, 00:14 Originally posted by sigdeputy
I do believe one of the reasons people like to bash it is because of the price of ammo. It's not a cheap gun to shoot if you don't reload. I don't, so I pay nearly $20 for a box of FMJ practice ammo. My little trip to the range the other day cost me $67 in ammo. Compare that to the price of 9mm, .40 & .45 ACP. It's more than double the price. I don't mind because I also own other guns in different calbers.
Georgia Arms (http://www.georgia-arms.com/) $125 for 500 rounds of 10mm. Its good stuff. No more excuses on it being too expensive!
Originally posted by SilverState
Are you referring to ballistics or have you considered explaining your choice of ammo in a situation where you are claiming self-defense and are being charged with murder?
In the latter, it is easier to explain .45acp.
Again, not saying that's how it should be, but such is life.
What's the difference? Lawyer hype is all. Back in the days of the revolver being the Law Enforcement weapon of choice, .357 Magnum was king, 10mm isn't that big a step off from .357 Magnum. Lawyers use some smoke and mirrors "he uses a 10mm, he is a killer" and that is supposed to make a difference? Doesn't matter what you use to take a life, it is still taking a life, justified or not justified is the question to be answered in a criminal trial.
Hearing this sort of nonsense just makes me ill.
Photocop 12-22-2006, 01:37 The max listed 155g load of Hodgdon Longshot leaves my G35 (more portable than a G20) at ~1450fps. If this were a .357mag, it would be considered Thor’s Hammer, but since it was derived from a more powerful cartridge instead of a less powerful one it is considered to be for wimps and pansies.
This is clearly respectable performance. But let's not forget that you're getting this performance out of a barrel almost 3/4" longer than that of the G20 and it's still not up to snuff with the hot 155 grain 10mm loads. DoubleTap's 155 gr. Gold Dots will crank out 1475 fps out of a 4.6" bbl, G20. If they made a long slide G20 with a 5.3" bbl, you'd probably be able to get somewhere near 1525 fps for muzzle energies in the area of 800 ft/lbs. And who knows what you could achieve with expertly tweaked, nuclear hand loads. I like the G35 and if I was to carry .40, that would be my choice for the extra barrel length, performance, etc. Question: How do you figure a G35 is "more portable" than a G20? That baffles me.
As for those worried about lawyers and the 10mm, I think that's pretty ridiculous. A good shoot is a good shoot. Period. If you're that concerned, you probably shouldn't carry a gun in the first place.
Moral of the story, let everyone shoot your 10mm that you possibly can and maybe we can get more converts.
Oh, believe me, I do. And I have yet to have anyone complain that it is "unmanageable", etc. I have persuaded two other folks in the just the last eight months or so to buy a 10mm G20. The ones that have them absolutely love them. My cousin actually bought two G20's based on my recommendation and he couldn't be happier. If I was to listen to the ignorant among us here on GT, I wouldn't ever have thought it possible that ANYONE could love the 10mm. I guess I just wasn't gullible enough (or a big enough wussy) to believe that the "barbaric" and "bone jarring" recoil was such a hard selling point. And this speaks nothing of the fact that anyone who knows anything knows that it's completely impossible to have quick follow up shots or double taps in anything less than five seconds with the 10mm because the muzzle flip is so extreme that the gun nearly blasts right out of your hand. Phew! I must be one of the world's most amazing shooters to be able to hang with the .40 and .45 guys at the range. It must be mind boggling to the 9mm lovers that I don't finish dead last when having to deal with the searing pain in my shooting hand from all that elephantine recoil from my 10mm. ;)
SilverState 12-22-2006, 01:47 Originally posted by Bullman
What's the difference? Lawyer hype is all. Back in the days of the revolver being the Law Enforcement weapon of choice, .357 Magnum was king, 10mm isn't that big a step off from .357 Magnum. Lawyers use some smoke and mirrors "he uses a 10mm, he is a killer" and that is supposed to make a difference? Doesn't matter what you use to take a life, it is still taking a life, justified or not justified is the question to be answered in a criminal trial.
Hearing this sort of nonsense just makes me ill.
Ballistics and legal significance are worlds apart.
As a criminal law attorney, I can tell you that just because you don't think something is legally important doesn't make it so.
Let me give you an extreme example. If you had to shoot someone in self defense, would you rather use an AK pistol with ammo that was previously in the media and characterized as "cop killer ammo". Or, would you rather have the same weapon and ammo that your local police department partrol officers use?
Please try and understand what I am saying. I am not saying that I don't like 10mm. I said I have a few. I said that there are other things to consider in a self-defense scenario. And unlike most people on this forum, I do put on murder trials.
And if you fail in your affirmative self-defense, it is not me that will be in prison for life.
SilverState 12-22-2006, 01:49 [i]As for those worried about lawyers and the 10mm, I think that's pretty ridiculous. A good shoot is a good shoot. Period. If you're that concerned, you probably shouldn't carry a gun in the first place.[/B]
I disagree. But then, I probably have different experience/knowledge than you do.
SilverState 12-22-2006, 01:50 Originally posted by anarchocap
Georgia Arms (http://www.georgia-arms.com/) $125 for 500 rounds of 10mm. Its good stuff. No more excuses on it being too expensive!
That's a good price, but you can get .45acp Remington UMC locally on sale for around $8 a box.
It does add up.
mmc45414 12-22-2006, 06:00 Originally posted by Photocop
This is clearly respectable performance. But let's not forget that you're getting this performance out of a barrel almost 3/4" longer than that of the G20 and it's still not up to snuff with the hot 155 grain 10mm loads. DoubleTap's 155 gr. Gold Dots will crank out 1475 fps out of a 4.6" bbl, G20...
Question: How do you figure a G35 is "more portable" than a G20? That baffles me. That is true, but if we try to take all the variables out of it, and compare DoubleTap to DoubleTap, 4.49” G22 to the 4.6” G20, they list the 155g 10mm as having a 165fps advantage. A significant advantage, but does it really make one a whopper and the other one weak? With the 180g-200g bullets the difference is much greater, and that is what is interesting me about the 10mm. I am not sure the 180g is really a good bullet weight for the 40, I think this flowed backwards from it being derived from the 10mm.
Actually, I think the 40 is handicapped by factory ammo being loaded below listed pressures because of Glock chambers, but this is just a crackpot theory of mine. Those loads I listed in my original post were specifically listed as being not suitable for guns without full chamber support.
As far as portability, I think to effectively conceal either a G20 or G35 they are going to be IWB, and the G35 is smaller in “girth” and the grip frame is significantly smaller. My butt really doesn’t notice the extra 0.70” on the end of the slide, but my gut really doesn’t want anything more shoved inside my belt. I have a Comp-Tac Gurka slide that I carry the thing in and my wife doesn’t even know if she doesn’t ask.
Anyway, like I said before, I think the 10mm is cool and I want one, not trying to flame anything or anybody. :thumbsup:
Photocop 12-22-2006, 10:56 SilverState:
The reason I believe this "10mm could get you in trouble in the event of a shoot" is ridiculous is because we're talking handgun cartridges. Anyone with two brain cells knows that handgun cartridges, and yes, even my fave, the mighty 10mm, is downright anemic compared to even some of the smallest rifle cartridges.
So under this logic should we all use something that is a poor manstopper to defend ourselves? The same argument could be made about using a .45acp vs. an old .38 special round---"This brutal killer couldn't just use a simple .38 special revolver! NO!! He had to use an AUTOMATIC (the way lawyers typically and errantly describe SEMI-autos), hi-capacity gun that shoots a HUGE, 45 caliber bullet that should only be used by military or police!!"
My condolences on your choice of career unless you're using your lawyering skills for things other than the forces of evil. ;) But if my biggest concern in a shoot-out is that a disingenous attorney is going to try to illustrate that I'm somehow more responsible or had blatantly nefarious intentions because of my choice of handgun cartrdige, then that's a risk I'm willing to take. The alternative of using something less effective could get me killed.
~Mike
SilverState 12-22-2006, 12:12 Originally posted by Photocop
SilverState:
The reason I believe this "10mm could get you in trouble in the event of a shoot" is ridiculous is because we're talking handgun cartridges. Anyone with two brain cells knows that handgun cartridges, and yes, even my fave, the mighty 10mm, is downright anemic compared to even some of the smallest rifle cartridges.
So under this logic should we all use something that is a poor manstopper to defend ourselves? The same argument could be made about using a .45acp vs. an old .38 special round---"This brutal killer couldn't just use a simple .38 special revolver! NO!! He had to use an AUTOMATIC (the way lawyers typically and errantly describe SEMI-autos), hi-capacity gun that shoots a HUGE, 45 caliber bullet that should only be used by military or police!!"
My condolences on your choice of career unless you're using your lawyering skills for things other than the forces of evil. ;) But if my biggest concern in a shoot-out is that a disingenous attorney is going to try to illustrate that I'm somehow more responsible or had blatantly nefarious intentions because of my choice of handgun cartrdige, then that's a risk I'm willing to take. The alternative of using something less effective could get me killed.
~Mike
Here's the problem with your logic. The jury is made up of regular people from the community who were unable to talk their way out of jury duty or have some reason for wanting to be on the jury. Some are progun and some are not. Some are intelligent and some don't have "two brain cells." And they are getting to decide whether what you call a good shoot was in fact a legally justified killing.
Yes, the argument regarding "automatic" has been made before. And to rebut this argument, your attorney will probably inform the jury that even the police use semi-automatics and have been doing so for decades, etc. etc. But understand, sometimes, self-defense is a close call and jurors consider things they should not in coming to a conclusion.
Condolences are not required and I will say no more about that.
As for anemic ammo, why not use an AK pistol for ccw? 762X39 is not anemic, is it? How about an AR pistol? .223 is not anemic, is it? I sold off my 5.7 to avoid the possibility of having my choice in caliber used against me.
I think you understand my point but are trying to not lose an argument. But since this thread mentions "thinking" as it relates to the 10mm, I agree, we should think about the cartridge and how using it can affect us under various circumstances. And like I said before, I choose to use .45acp in my ccw pistols. It is okay if you choose something else. I don't feel undergunned with my Ed Brown Kobra Carry or my RRA Pro Carry loaded with Gold Dot .45acp.
BTW, your concern about the disingenuous attorney is valid. That's the whole point. It is not fair, but if happens. The legal system is not perfect.
SundevilFan 12-22-2006, 12:33 Originally posted by Bullman
People bash because they don't know any better. I get the same thing about Smith and Wesson autos, which by the way happens to also be a great 10mm platform. I hear about how inaccurate they are, how unreliable they are and most of all "they will never be as good as my Sig".
I wish we could get more weapons chambered in this most wonderful of all pistol calibers. If the FBI had stuck with it, I think it would have gone places. I can't understand why an agency that carried a 3 inch .357 magnum revolver as an issued weapon would have trouble with recoil out of a 1076, other than the fact that most agents probably carried .38s in their issue .357s.
Bullman, I couldn't agree with you more! I stayed away from S&W autos for years due to their perceived "inadequate quality and reliability". I only owned HK and Sig, until I recently started to expand my horizons and purchase a Wilson CQB and a SW 1006. The Smith was worked over by Novak, but I must say that it is downright scary accurate and totally reliable. A friend of mine has a stock 1006, and even though it is not as nice in the trigger compartment, the gun is flawless and has never given him any probelms. I've had two Sigs that were not up to my expectations within the past 10 years. So, for what it's worth, my experience with the 10mm has been fantastic and especially in the 1006 platform!:hearts:
nickE10mm 12-22-2006, 12:57 Well said, Silverstate.
Originally posted by SilverState
I think you understand my point but are trying to not lose an argument. But since this thread mentions "thinking" as it relates to the 10mm, I agree, we should think about the cartridge and how using it can affect us under various circumstances. And like I said before, I choose to use .45acp in my ccw pistols. It is okay if you choose something else. I don't feel undergunned with my Ed Brown Kobra Carry or my RRA Pro Carry loaded with Gold Dot .45acp.
BTW, your concern about the disingenuous attorney is valid. That's the whole point. It is not fair, but if happens. The legal system is not perfect.
An Ed Brown Kobra Carry ? You use a gun named after one of the most deadly and dangerous snakes in the world??? Is that wise counserlor?:upeyes:
HK45Mark23 12-22-2006, 15:15 To comment about grip size and recoil.
I am a 5’ tall man. My hands are only 6.5” from wrist to tip of my middle finger, I have an 8” sped from the tip of my pinky to the tip of my thumb when I stretched my hand wide open.
I only weigh 130lbs, used to ride racehorses and weighed 112lbs at that time, but I am getting fat now I guess ahahaha.
I loved my G-21, in a shoulder holster; I love my G-29 and want a G-20.
I have no problem holding the gun as far as grip size. Matter of fact I also use a Hogue grip which increases the girth of the grip. I like the G-20/21 grip better than the smaller grip of my other favorite gun by Glock the G-22. To me the G-20/21 fills my hands a little better and I like that feeling.
As far as recoil, the Glock has a low placed barrel compared to a lot of other guns, especially revolvers, but also compared to guns like the 1911 and Sig designs.
The Glocks have a wider back strap that spreads the impact over a wider area.
The polymer frames actually cushions the recoil slightly over metal guns by flexing every so slightly.
Because of these innovations not only do you reduce the muzzle flip by lowering the barrel closer to the palm of the hand but you also spread the energy spike over a wider area as well as the absorption of some of the energy by the gun its self.
The only counter argument about the Glock innovations is the lighter design of the Glock. Every one knows that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This means that heavier guns like the .50AE Desert Eagle can absorb a lot of recoil due to their great mass.
My girlfriend who is smaller than I am can shoot my G-29. She only weighs 100lbs. I carry 180gr JHP @ 1300+v producing around 700 ftlbs E.
As a thinking man, I know that carrying a larger gun gives me more options, I reported on another thread about why, chase this link.
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=7368607#post7368607
SilverState 12-22-2006, 15:22 Originally posted by Bullman
An Ed Brown Kobra Carry ? You use a gun named after one of the most deadly and dangerous snakes in the world??? Is that wise counserlor?:upeyes:
No problem with that one IMHO. Observe:
Question: What kind of weapon did you use to shoot Mr. So and so?
Answer: I used an Ed Brown Kobra Carry.
Question: Why that gun and not another?
Answer: For several reasons. One, the design has been around for around a hundred years and has been used by government. In fact, it was and is issued to soldiers and officers in the military. I also like the external safety, which some guns don't have; it avoids accidental or neligent discharges. Since I put people in prison for a living, and they eventually get paroled or their sentences expire, I did not want to be thrifty with something I use to protect my life. I did a lot of research and found that Ed Brown and his sons make some of the finest 1911s and they use quality parts from forged metal and bar stock. What that translates into is a firearm that is accurate, so you don't hurt a passerby or other victim, and reliable, so you can stop the attack effectively. I also like the thin size of the gun and the commander slide is easier to carry on my person.
Question: Why is the firearm called a Kobra?
Answer: The frame and the slide have machining done to keep you from losing your grip while operating the weapon. Some guns use checkering and the Kobra uses what appears to be scales. The scales appear to be snake-like, hence the name Kobra. Incidentally, the Carry refers to a firearm that is more compact and easier to carry than a "fullsize" handgun.
SilverState 12-22-2006, 15:30 Originally posted by nickE10mm
Well said, Silverstate.
Thanks. :thumbsup:
Well explained.... so, what makes the 10mm so much more difficult to explain away? I worked with some police officers back in the day that carried .44s, were they in the same predicament since they carried a 44 magnum? I still think my caliber choice being used against me in court is a bunch of poppycock.
SilverState 12-22-2006, 17:29 Originally posted by Bullman
Well explained.... so, what makes the 10mm so much more difficult to explain away? I worked with some police officers back in the day that carried .44s, were they in the same predicament since they carried a 44 magnum? I still think my caliber choice being used against me in court is a bunch of poppycock.
Thank you and yes. Were the officers you knew ever charged with murder while off duty and did they go to trial using the affirmative defense of self-defense? It would be nice if caliber does not become an issue, and if you are lucky, no one will focus on it or argue it to the jury, but if you are not so lucky, it can be detrimental. The question of whether it will matter is unknown util you are in that situation. So I guess it depends on whether you think the benefit outweighs the risk.
As for IA reviews, you realize that being judged in an administrative proceeding by one's "peers" is not the same as putting up an affirmative defense in a murder trial in front of a jury.
For me, I just choose to carry the .45acp in my carry pistols to avoid the possibility of having the caliber used against me. Sort of the safer choice. And given what I have seen of the .45acp in action, I don't think I am giving up anything.
I realize that it is a bunch of legal smoke and mirrors to make an issue of the caliber used when it doesn't amount to a hill of beans what caliber was used.
SilverState 12-22-2006, 17:42 It is AMAZING to talk to the jurors after a verdict to see the things they focused on. Sometimes, it is a pleasant surpirse, and sometimes it is a travesty of justice. And it would be a shame if they bought some silly argument about caliber or focused on some comments about caliber, causing them to find a shoot was not reasonable under the circumstances when they would otherwise have found it to be reasonable.
Just something to consider.
Check out this thread with a similar argument:
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=631875
Photocop 12-22-2006, 17:53 SilverState:
Very good response. I do understand your point, and considering that mind-numb jurors will often make ludicrous decisions even when given good, irrefutable information that supports the opposing argument; you're completely correct---anything CAN happen. My point is that these preposterous arguments could be made about virtually any caliber larger than a .22lr as I illustrated with my .38 spcl vs. .45acp example. I think the arguments against the 10mm are "splitting hairs" as they say.
But as an attorney, you know that each side will do their best to spin any particular set of circumstances to their advantage. All I can say is that with my knowledge of firearms and ballistics, I would not be particularly concerned about any arguments against the 10mm as a choice of caliber in a court of law. I'm not an attorney, but with 19 years of law enforcement experience, I've seen my share of legal defense/prosecution work. In other words, I don't believe it would be that difficult to provide compelling arguments against the ridiculous rantings of a lawyer regardless of their position (defense/prosecution) about the 10mm considering it's relative weakness in the grand scheme of ballistics. The AK pistols you mention are a far more extreme example since they do not use standard pistol cartridges by anyone's definition. However I do understand your use of this example to illustrate the point.
Admittedly, I get a little confused when discussing matters such as these because as a police officer I have to think about both sides of the coin--the possibility of killing someone while acting in a police capacity AND/OR the possibility of killing someone while in a more civilian, "off-duty" capacity. Police are in a somewhat unique position that most people never have to consider. Most here on GT are not policemen and are strictly civilian gunners. When someone speaks of defense attorneys in a legal sense, I think "opposition" because of my l.e. career. But as you know, cop or no cop, if you're the one that's being prosecuted, the defense lawyer is your friend.:)
By the way, I don't care about winning the "argument" because I don't feel there is one. I consider this discussion matters of opinion and since anything can happen in a court of law, there is no "correct" answer. My opinion is no more valid than yours and we've both raised points that are sensible and germane to the issue.
And don't take any offense to the "condolences" comment. I was just ribbing ya. I have many friends that are defense attorneys that I consider to be "reality based lawyers". In other words they don't instantly assume that their clients are all good, innocent people nor do they believe the cops are all a bunch of criminals with guns, though they understand that both do exist. These defense lawyer friends, some were even prosecuting attorneys previously, have willingly and generously helped me perfect my craft in police reports and related matters. Plus, as stated above, I'll never know when I might need a good defense lawyer in the future. So I don't take the stance that is common in law enforcement that defense lawyers are all terrible people. For what it's worth.......
Cheers!
~M.Green
SilverState 12-22-2006, 18:01 PhotoCop,
Agreed. :thumbsup:
I have yet to deal with a 10mm murder or attempt murder...
Only .22LR & 9mm attempt murders; .45acp and .357mag murders. I suspect if I did get a 10mm case, it would be a murder and not just an attempt.
ColoradoGlocker 12-22-2006, 18:09 .
Photocop 12-22-2006, 18:10 SilverState:
Since the 10mm is an intelligent, "thinking man's" cartridge, you probably never will see a murder involving it.;) Most thugs that commit murder aren't what I'd call especially intelligent nor are they known for their deep, insightful thought.
All joking aside, you probably won't see a 10mm murder just because it simply isn't very popular.
~M
Short Cut 12-22-2006, 18:37 Originally posted by Photocop
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I read thread after thread after thread on this site about people debating caliber choice and there's always the capacity vs. bullet power debate; e.g. 9mm vs. .45 GAP, M1911, etc. The answer to this debate, as we intelligent gunners here on the 10 Ring already know, is the G20 in 10mm!! Superior ballistics with exceptional capacity.
Considering the fact that I carry my Kimber Custom 10MM Eclipse most everyday and never my G20, I'd say that the ballistics alone are reason enough to like the 10MM. My preferred magazine only holds 8 rounds so I don't gain any capacity compared to a .45 ACP (my second favorite carry round).
The key benefits that I like best about the 10MM are:
Penetration Part A - given possible oblique angles or striking of an arm bone first, I like that the 10MM can still make it to the boiler room. Penetration Part B - The 10MM, compared to other semi auto cartridges, does very well at penetrating barriers such as vehicle sheet metal, glass and other sundry materials. It's a powerful round with a huge variety of loadings available. The 10MM is a flat shooter, which is something I value in wide open country.
Ramjet38 12-22-2006, 18:59 Originally posted by G20man32904
A picture speaks a thousand words? :supergrin:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/g20man/10mmnot40sw.jpg
I like that. :hearts:
SilverState 12-22-2006, 21:37 Originally posted by ColoradoGlocker
a prosecutor's likely opening line for a shooting involving his beloved 45acp might go along the lines of,
"The mighty 45! One shot in the shoulder and it will tear a man's arm off! The US Army used it for many years as a man-killer in war! Deadly accurate, deadly serious, only a ruthless killer would shoot a person with this huge bullet (holds it up for the jury to see [maybe compares it to a 9mm]). In fact, the Army retired the 45 and now uses the 9mm as a more humane combat pistol."
I wouldn't say "likely", but anything is possible. None of the prosecutors I know would make that argument. In fact, lots of times, the jury is composed of some people with military background. You wouldn't want to alienate them with that kind of an argument. In contrast, rarely, if ever, will you have a jury member that is very pro-10mm...
Originally posted by ColoradoGlocker
Trials are about crafting a 'truth' for the jury to believe that supports your clients best interests. That's why good lawyers are expensive. They should be able to get the inocent convicted or the guilty acquitted. If they can't, they'll never make any real money in the business. When the prosecutor presents one version, a decent defense attorney should already have prepared a rebuttal and be ready to craft a different version which aids their client's case. If he can't do that, it ain't the fault of the caliber, it's the fault of the lawyer.
Ideally, you would have the means to retain the best criminal defense attorney. Ideally, the attorney of your choosing would take your case and keep it through trial. Ideally, you would get a good jury that wouuld not get caught up with nonissues like caliber. Ideally, justice would be served and the legally justified would be acquitted. Ideally, the second amendment would prevent anti-gun laws.
But as we all know, life is not ideal.
Incidentally, around here, the best criminal defense attorneys often claim that the State has no case and if they are paid $10K to $20K for the preliminary hearing, that the case would not get bound up to District Court for trial.
Guess what, 99% of the time, the case gets bound up to District Court. And then these high-priced attorneys ask for another $50K to $150K to do the trial.
So much for the legal system being ideal...
SilverState 12-22-2006, 21:40 Originally posted by Short Cut
Considering the fact that I carry my Kimber Custom 10MM Eclipse most everyday and never my G20,
I thought you primarily carried your Kimber CDP .45acp...
Or, am I mixing you up with someone else?
SilverState 12-22-2006, 21:41 Originally posted by Photocop
SilverState:
Since the 10mm is an intelligent, "thinking man's" cartridge, you probably never will see a murder involving it.;) Most thugs that commit murder aren't what I'd call especially intelligent nor are they known for their deep, insightful thought.
All joking aside, you probably won't see a 10mm murder just because it simply isn't very popular.
~M
True and true.
ColoradoGlocker 12-22-2006, 23:26 .
Short Cut 12-22-2006, 23:32 Originally posted by SilverState
I thought you primarily carried your Kimber CDP .45acp...
Or, am I mixing you up with someone else?
Good memory, SS. I switched about 6 months ago.
SilverState 12-22-2006, 23:53 Originally posted by ColoradoGlocker
SilverState, you play with words. You know that I was demonstrating that the caliber of weapon isn't what is important in a hearing or trial, but rather the competence of the legal representation. Your 45acp can be characterized to be just as evil as any 10mm by a skillful barrister. Given reasonable representation, the facts of the shooting will carry, not some BS about caliber.
I am not trying to play. I am trying to help by offering another perspective that may not otherwise have been considered.
I understood your demonstration and disagreed with how likely it is to occur.
I addressed the issue of obtaining competent legal representation.
In my opinion, it is harder to paint the .45acp as evil than the 10mm. And that's what these boards are, forums for people to convey opinions. What fun would it be if a person posted a thread and there was nothing but several pages of people saying "yes" or "I agree"?
I think I mentioned before that whether or not the caliber becomes an issue is hard to determine ahead of time. But it is certainly worth considering ahead of time.
Do what you will, just do so having considered the possible ramifications AHEAD of time.
SilverState 12-23-2006, 00:12 Originally posted by Short Cut
Good memory, SS. I switched about 6 months ago.
I seem to remember that you were very pleased with the reliability of the CDP at a time when lots of people were bashing Kimber and their external extractors.
I also remember some really nice pics of other pistols you own; particularly the Baer Police, if memory serves.
I am always on the lookout for a good Baer like that...
Have you considered bobtailing the Eclipse? I find 1911s print less with that configuration. I used to have an Eclipse CLEII in .45acp with the smooth frontstrap and the black frame; nice looking gun!
Here's my wannabe Warrior in 10mm:
http://sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/KimberStainlessTargetII10R.JPG
And here are the preferred carry pistols:
Ed Brown Kobra Carry
http://sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/Kobral.JPG
RRA Pro Carry
http://sincitypitbulls.freeservers.com/RRAProCarry.JPG
Short Cut 12-23-2006, 10:47 This Custom CDP 2 has always been a great gun.
http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/Cus_CDP_out_VM2.jpg
It has the internal extractor and I always liked the combination of full size and light weight. I've also always felt that Kimber does a real good job on their triggers and accuracy.
The only reason I switched was for caliber. Where I live we're only allowed to have 3 guns on our carry permit and they are listed by serial number so one must stick with those three. Every two years when my renewal rolls around I put a lot of thought into which 3.
The last go around I swapped out the Custom and Compact CDPs for these two and kept the rarely carried Kahr PM9 for those times when it is tough to carry anything larger.
http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/Eclipse_10MM_and_Warthog.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/SW_1911PD_and_Dempsey_APU.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/PM9_size_comparison.jpg
I like look of the Bobtail and I like the idea of the Bobtail. I strongly considered getting the 1911PD Bobtailed, but there are two things that have kept me from getting one. First and most importantly is the way it makes the gun point for me.
Now I'm not the biggest advocate of point shooting in the world, however I do think it has its place for a proficient shooter. When I use a gun with the Bobtail and I draw and present the pistol ends up pointing low which I have to compensate for. I'm sure I could train around this, but then I'd want all of my carry and training 1911s to have a Bobtail for consistency. I like that with most any full gripped 1911 with a flat backstrap I can draw and present with my eyes closed and naturally have the muzzle come to bear towards the COM of a man sized target.
The second issue is that I carry with an FBI cant which actually makes the bottom of the front side of the magazine stick out more than anything when bending over. This realization made the Bobtail option less of a useful customization FOR ME.
Still I like how it looks. :)
Short Cut 12-23-2006, 10:55 Oh yeah, thanks for your nice comment about the Police Special. It's a keeper for sure. It's funny the Baers are my favorite 1911s yet I've been primarily carrying Kimbers the past four years. That may change the next go around as I picked up a Baer Concept X that may replace the S&W when my renewal comes around again.
http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/PS_2.jpg
What an excellent thread! Thank you all!
Thanks in particular to Photocop for stating the position so nicely - as a thinking person, I agree entirely. Thanks also to SilverState for calmly and clearly reasoned arguments about jury psychology which can hardly be refuted.
On ballance, if I had the choice to carry anything, I would stick with the 10mm and risk the jury, but that is because I believe, contrary to SilverState and in common with many here, that it carries a significant rather than marginal effectiveness benefit over the .45.
I believe in the 10mm's greater effectiveness without what I would consider substantial evidence. Part of the to and from between Photocop and SilverState triggered an interesting idea. Is it possible to get hold of the ratios between different calibers for attempted murders versus actual murders. This should give some guidance to cartridge effectiveness. Once again, it would be far from perfect. We are unlikely to know which choice of bullet and velocity was used and, as was argued against the supposed superiority of the .45ACP in street statistics, people shooting the more powerful cartridges are more likely to be more skilled enthusiast shooters. It should still give an interesting comparison between .357SIG, 10mm, and .45 if the numbers a big enough. The number of shots to hit the "victim" before the accused felt it safe to stop shooting would also be interesting.
English
SilverState 12-24-2006, 14:06 Originally posted by English
Is it possible to get hold of the ratios between different calibers for attempted murders versus actual murders.
It might be possible, but I wouldn't know how to get that kind of data. And, as you mentioned, there are lots of other factors that could be considered. Also as mentioned, the 10mm just isn't used enough, so there aren't too many murder or attempt murder cases using that cartridge. However, I will say once again that in most attempt murder cases involving a victim that was shot with a handgun, it is a smaller caliber. Yeah, shot placement cannot be ignored, but caliber helps as well.
BTW, the Gold Dot .45acp I use travels at 1225fps. So to me, the 10mm is maginally advantageous.
Publilius_Syrus 12-24-2006, 14:21 Originally posted by DavidinSA
If more people were exposed to the 10mm, there would be less apprehension towards it.
Moral of the story, let everyone shoot your 10mm that you possibly can and maybe we can get more converts.
David
Oh, really! I'm in San Antonio and would love to shoot a 10mm...hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more!
http://i14.tinypic.com/2nlqz3q.jpg
Bravo-Four 12-25-2006, 02:04 Originally posted by SilverState
BTW, the Gold Dot .45acp I use travels at 1225fps. So to me, the 10mm is maginally advantageous. [/B]
Heh, how many grains, 20? Because 230gr .45 ACP travel at a tortoisly obese 750~
I would call your WWI relic .45acp marginal as well. If its not 230gr it shouldnt even be considered 45 to begin with.
ps, I have the right to comment, I own two H&k .45's, one of them is class3 because i love nice silent fat slowmoving bullets.
I'll go with Photocop on everything. The 10mm simply does everything the other guys can do but better. Why analyze it? Its right in front of everyone. Anyways, I respect your court assumptions, but that is really sad that I cant depend on my peers to do the right thing if what you say is true.
mmc45414 12-25-2006, 07:36 Originally posted by Bravo-Four
Heh, how many grains, 20? Because 230gr .45 ACP travel at a tortoisly obese 750~ I guess that is the case if you turn back the hands of time to 1911, but then the 10mm wouldn’t even exit. Back to the future, Double Tap only claims an extra 75fps out of ½” less barrel:
.45ACP 185gr Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
10mm 180gr. Gold Dot (50) $25.95 $23.95
Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1300fps/ 676ft/lbs- Glock 20
The 10mm certainly has its place. If I were to go hunting with a glock, a G20 with 6' barrel and a hot n' heavy 10mm load would be my first choice.
However, if you're claiming that you can make just as accurate and fast follow up shots with a hot 10mm as you can with most other calibers, I don't believe it. In a SHTF self-defense situation, with the adrenaline pumping and stress out the wazoo, I'd rather have a more controllable gun that can allow me to get as many shots on the target as I need until they drop, rather than getting a few hundrend more fps for a less controllable gun.
Not bashing the 10mm, as I would love to get one some day, but it's down the list a few spots.
SilverState 12-25-2006, 10:43 Originally posted by Bravo-Four
Heh, how many grains, 20?
185gr Gold Dot @ 1225fps.
Originally posted by Bravo-Four
230gr .45 ACP travel at a tortoisly obese 750~
Not all...
Originally posted by Bravo-Four
your WWI relic .45acp
Actually, it was made recently.
:tongueout:
40Magnum 12-25-2006, 12:13 .45ACP 185gr Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
10mm 180gr. Gold Dot (50) $25.95 $23.95
Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1300fps/ 676ft/lbs- Glock 20
Its pretty easy to load the 180s up into the mid 700s for energy.
Buy a G21 and a 10mm conversion barrel. Shoot both.
Merkavaboy 12-25-2006, 13:14 Originally posted by Photocop
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I read thread after thread after thread on this site about people debating caliber choice and there's always the capacity vs. bullet power debate; e.g. 9mm vs. .45 GAP, M1911, etc. The answer to this debate, as we intelligent gunners here on the 10 Ring already know, is the G20 in 10mm!! Superior ballistics with exceptional capacity.
What is the reason for the mindless aversion to the mighty 10mm that so many people seem to possess on this site? I recently responded to another thread about the .45 GAP and opined that the 10mm is the answer to all of these questions of debate and said "Long live the 10mm!" of course somebody has to reply, "Not in my gunsafe!" as if the 10mm is an infectious disease or something. This statement almost implies that 10mm is a bad choice to anybody that isn't smart enough to know better.
I know all about the "bad rap" that the 10mm got as a result of the wimpy FBI agents in the early 90's, but give me a damn break!! When you consider the versatility of the cartridge for its wide range of bullet weights, muzzle energies, hunting applications, etc., and then factor in the fact that it's a meaner round than any 9, .40, or .45; why is it such a maligned caliber? It just does not make any sense to me. People not only opt for other calibers most of the time, but they take a great deal of delight in bashing our beloved cartridge. I don't bash .45's, I just like the 10mm better for obvious reasons. I wish the 10 bashers would knock it off because it makes them look ignorant. If you're too much of a wuss to handle the recoil of a G20, then you probably have no business shooting guns in the first place. I love the statements like "After about fifty rounds, the G20 is just too punishing to the hand and is downright unpleasant to shoot". Who's hands do these people have? A malnourished third grader's? If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser.
A while back I shot an IDPA match and used my G20 with DoubleTap practice loads (180 gr. @ 1250 fps) which are pretty spicy, but not as hot as the defense ammo. Still much spicier than the 9mm and .40 stuff that most guys shoot. I'm a pretty good shooter and the range instructor after I finished a really good round saw me gathering my mags, etc. and said, "You shot that with a 10mm!?! Damn!!" As if the 10mm is so violently uncontrollable that it was outrageous to even think that a person could be competitive with such a ridiculously unmanageable cartridge with so much "wasted and unnecessary energy" as the critics and "9 is fine" crowd like to claim. It was just another case of collossal ignorance in the world of handguns and ballistics. What was frightening is that this is a guy who is around guns all the time---not some nimrod in the civilian world who has no experience with firearms.
It is for these reasons that I truly believe that people like us that know and love the 10mm for all of its great atrributes are more thoughtful and analytical gunners than the rest of the "get what everybody else gets" crowd. Availability of ammunition is about the only valid reason that I can think of that gives any anti-10mm'er any leg to stand on, but even that argument is pretty weak considering the availability of ammo online and the cheap .40 barrels that you can use for practice like I do. Grip size might be a valid argument as well, but people still bash the 10mm when it's in single stacked 1911 platforms where grip size is not an issue. It's lunacy.
I'm guessing that I'm not alone here in my sentiments here on the 10 Ring. But it would be just nice to hear some affirmation from some of the 10mm brothers. Please comment.
......This is just my anti-anti-10mm rant for today. Please discuss........ [/B]
I've taken the liberty to highlight some of the more derogatory statements in your thread. You wonder why people get upset at people like you when you flount the so-called "superiority" of the 10mm?
When I read your post, the only thing that I could think of was: How absolutely arrorgant and condescending you are towards those who do not agree with your opinion regarding the superiority of the 10mm.
Allow me to point out a few reality checks to you and the rest of you "10mm superiority" mind-set people.
As was mentioned, the availability of ammo is but one issue. Availability of 9mm loads are probably over 5 times greater than the 10mm. Even the lowly .38Spl. has more factory rounds available than the 10mm. But we all know that already...
The 10mm is not a superior caliber for self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. Not EVERYBODY who chooses to own or carry a firearm for self-defense is as capable of handling a 10mm like you; far from it. People come in all different sizes, sex and shooting ability, or is that something that is lost upon you? There are people who don't have the arm/wrist strength to handle the recoil/muzzle flip of anything over something as small as a .380ACP. So does that mean that someone who chooses a .22LR or .25ACP pistol for SD somehow "probably have no business shooting guns in the first place" like you wrote?
Or how about the elderly couple who live in an apartment on the wrong side of the tracks, and want something for SD? Think they should run out and buy a $600 GLOCK 10mm loaded with hot Double Tap JHP loads, or would they be better served buying a $200 .38Spl. revolver that they both feel comfortable in being able to hold and shoot?
How about the average businessman who gets a pistol permit because he carries alot of money/valueables. He wears a suit to work every day and wants something that he can comfortably conceal upon his person and that is light weight and won't drag his pants down or make his suit jacket lopsided? Is the 10mm best for him?
What about the average gun owner who enjoys going to the indoor range and shooting 50 or 100 rounds once every month just for fun, but who also uses his gun for home defense and keeps near by where his wife can also access it if necessary? Think a heavy recoiling 10mm is best this these people?
Or how about someone like me, who's been shooting handguns of all calbers for over 20 years, who also has a pistol permit and carries on a daily basis. I have small hands, and I find that a G-19 with a grip reduction fits my hand even better than an unmodified G-19 frame. The caliber I choose to carry and shoot is the 9x19mm. I consider myself an intelligent and knowledgeable firearms owner (I've been studying on guns/ammo since I was 10 years old). I don't have a "mindless aversion to the mighty 10mm". In fact, I have a S&W M-1066 that I purchased as soon as they were available. I also have handguns in calibers from .22LR to .45Colt. And just because I don't own or shoot a G-20, does that make me someone who "probably have no business shooting guns in the first place"? With a statement like that coming from you, I'm more inclined to think the complete opposite.
Just because people don't enjoy shooting a 10mm for informal plinking or formal shoots, or they don't carry a 10mm into the field while hunting, or they don't choose to carry a 10mm for self-defense or carry it in uniform as a duty sidearm, that doesn't make them "ignorant", "wimpy" or a "wuss", nor does that lend them to harbor "mindless aversion" to the 10mm, nor does it make them become inflicted with "collossal ignorance in the world of handguns and ballistics".
I've decided that I won't even go into commenting about your derogatory statement about people with small hands like "a malnourished third grader's" and "If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser".
And you wonder why people tend to flame the 10mm and the people like you who like touting it's "superiority"? You, sir (and I use that term lightly) are the reason why. Your presumption of knowing what's best for EVERYBODY shows the rest of us (who really are intelligent and knowledgeable about firearms) just how ignorant, arrogant and self-righteous YOU and many other pro-10mm "superiority" posters truely are.
HK45Mark23 12-25-2006, 14:50 Originally posted by Merkavaboy
I've taken the liberty to highlight some of the more derogatory statements in your thread. You wonder why people get upset at people like you when you flount the so-called "superiority" of the 10mm?
So now you’re emotionally charged and posting based on your own ego, am I correct. This whole post is based on your feelings.
When I read your post, the only thing that I could think of was: How absolutely arrorgant and condescending you are towards those who do not agree with your opinion regarding the superiority of the 10mm.
So again your emotions cause you to completely disregard the scientific process. OK so you don’t like the post, great, maybe I don’t blame you. I can see how the delivery can make the difference in acceptance or distain of the message.
Allow me to point out a few reality checks to you and the rest of you "10mm superiority" mind-set people.
As was mentioned, the availability of ammo is but one issue. Availability of 9mm loads are probably over 5 times greater than the 10mm. Even the lowly .38Spl. has more factory rounds available than the 10mm. But we all know that already...
Availability is not an issue every where. With the internet availability of ammunitions and reloading equipment not only is available but it is affordable. If your complaining about the cost of ammunition then get a 22LR. Gee ammunition is cheep, unless your just dirt poor. The Cor-bon and DT products are on the same par as .40s&w as well as 45.acp you know. And I guess it would take 5 times more 9mm to equal the power from a 10mm. Ok not quite so, but a good 9mm is 400 ft-lb’s E, and a good 10mm is 700+ftlbs E. So it is like nearly two times more powerful, with even a heavier bigger slug.
The 10mm is not a superior caliber for self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. Not EVERYBODY who chooses to own or carry a firearm for self-defense is as capable of handling a 10mm like you; far from it. People come in all different sizes, sex and shooting ability, or is that something that is lost upon you? There are people who don't have the arm/wrist strength to handle the recoil/muzzle flip of anything over something as small as a .380ACP. So does that mean that someone who chooses a .22LR or .25ACP pistol for SD somehow "probably have no business shooting guns in the first place" like you wrote?
My 10 year old sister shot my 10mm G-29, so did my 100 lb 5' girlfriend. They love it, and have small hands as I do. I don’t think any one will carry some thing they don’t want to. So to them just don’t do it then.
Or how about the elderly couple who live in an apartment on the wrong side of the tracks, and want something for SD? Think they should run out and buy a $600 GLOCK 10mm loaded with hot Double Tap JHP loads, or would they be better served buying a $200 .38Spl. revolver that they both feel comfortable in being able to hold and shoot?
Really a G-29 would be just as good as that 38 and has similar recoil. The extra width of the back strap makes it have less felt recoil, oooh and don’t forget the action of the slide, that reduces a lot of recoil. So right of the bad any Simi auto will be better for weaker hands wrist and arms. You know a polymer gun does save a lot of weight so the heft is not that great. So I think felt recoil, energy absorption by the polymer, and slide action as well as width of back strap debunk your idea that a 10mm is to stout and lest not forget the weight. A 38 is not that great of a stretch in size weight and recoil, especially when a 38 will have more muzzle flip due to the higher position of the barrel compared to the lower barrel position on Glocks Auto Pistol.
How about the average businessman who gets a pistol permit because he carries alot of money/valueables. He wears a suit to work every day and wants something that he can comfortably conceal upon his person and that is light weight and won't drag his pants down or make his suit jacket lopsided? Is the 10mm best for him?
How about a shoulder holster? I am a business man, and I carry every day in either a shoulder holster or with a wilderness Instructors Belt CSM 1 1/2". Let me tell you, there is no dragging of my pants that belt holds tight and never slips. My suit jacket covers so perfectly, it never prints. When I carry in a non professional setting, I just wear a polo shirt over my hip holster, and you know what, no one knows. Yeah a small man like me can conceal a G-22,21,20,29 with out any problem. I am only 5' tall maybe 130lbs.
What about the average gun owner who enjoys going to the indoor range and shooting 50 or 100 rounds once every month just for fun, but who also uses his gun for home defense and keeps near by where his wife can also access it if necessary? Think a heavy recoiling 10mm is best this these people?
Not so bad, if my sister when she was 10 liked it and still does at 16. If she could shoot it who’s wife could not shoot it? You’re trying to make it out to be some Destroyer or Battle ship cannon for carry on the hip. It is not that bad. And as far as plinking a good 22lr rifle is really best for that. I love the 10 mm and I use it for plinking, but when it really comes to fun, a good 22lr is great for the family.
Or how about someone like me, who's been shooting handguns of all calbers for over 20 years, who also has a pistol permit and carries on a daily basis. I have small hands, and I find that a G-19 with a grip reduction fits my hand even better than an unmodified G-19 frame. The caliber I choose to carry and shoot is the 9x19mm. I consider myself an intelligent and knowledgeable firearms owner (I've been studying on guns/ammo since I was 10 years old). I don't have a "mindless aversion to the mighty 10mm". In fact, I have a S&W M-1066 that I purchased as soon as they were available. I also have handguns in calibers from .22LR to .45Colt. And just because I don't own or shoot a G-20, does that make me someone who "probably have no business shooting guns in the first place"? With a statement like that coming from you, I'm more inclined to think the complete opposite.
I have been a card carrying gun owner for 12 years. I also grew up around firearms and family who hunted and was military. I think no one is deficient in their intellectual abilities necessary, but may be just a little emotionally charged. Some times we allow our emotions and ego to get in the way of common sense or a scientific approach.
As far as hand size goes my hand length from wrist to the tip of my middle finger is only 7" and I have a 7.5" spread. My hands are fairly small, but I love the grip size of the G-21, 20, 29. I like it over the G-17, 22.
No it does not say any thing bad about you. We all have our preferences. The 10mm guys don’t have any thing bad about them either.
I know of a lot of the 9mm guys who are so emotionally charged about their caliber they will almost fight you over it. I even know of one here in this thread that is really emotionally charged even now. Don’t look he is right over there. Don’t look, you may make him feel uncomfortable ahaha JK.
Just because people don't enjoy shooting a 10mm for informal plinking or formal shoots, or they don't carry a 10mm into the field while hunting, or they don't choose to carry a 10mm for self-defense or carry it in uniform as a duty sidearm, that doesn't make them "ignorant", "wimpy" or a "wuss", nor does that lend them to harbor "mindless aversion" to the 10mm, nor does it make them become inflicted with "collossal ignorance in the world of handguns and ballistics".
All though you may have a point about name calling, get over it. Even Arnold called people “girlie men.” Who cares? There was some truth in the statements maybe, and maybe that is why you’re so emotionally charged even now. No attack intended, just playing with you because you seem so upset. I am in a light hearted mood while writing this.
I've decided that I won't even go into commenting about your derogatory statement about people with small hands like [b]"a malnourished third grader's" and "If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser".
Well like I said earlier, even Arnold said “girlie man.” Even though most of the country thought it was funny and thought that it had a basses in truth, the media and some girlie men got upset and their feelings were hurt. Maybe you’re here upset because you felt that was a comment directed to you. If you took it personally, why be mad at the messenger, instead maybe take a look at your self and change what in you makes you feel as if you relate to it. We are only what we believe we are, nothing more or less.
And you wonder why people tend to flame the 10mm and the people like you who like touting it's "superiority"? You, sir (and I use that term lightly) are the reason why. Your presumption of knowing what's best for EVERYBODY shows the rest of us (who really are intelligent and knowledgeable about firearms) just how ignorant, arrogant and self-righteous YOU and many other pro-10mm "superiority" posters truely are.
Like you're not spewing your superiority here. Lets be real, we all have a right to do what we want and no one is better or worse a person for their caliber choice,
Could it be said that a 9mm limits your ability to protect your self, in different scenarios. Hitting the BG who is on the other side of a car window, car door, through a wall if you hit a stud can be difficult with a light round compared to a heavy one. I know it makes a difference, especially at distance.
I believe the true superiority comes from you entering the 10mm thread and spewing your options and attacks in a blanked fashion. I am happy that you are one of us gun owners and more power to the gun owners who protects and promote the right to carry guns.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Photocop 12-25-2006, 14:53 Merkavaboy:
The intent of my thread clearly went over your head. You're post indicates that though you're not a complete fool, you're are inexplicably unable to grasp a few simple points that were articulated reasonably well.
Clearly, I wasn't referring to 90 year old geriatric patients on fixed incomes, exceptionally petite womem, etc., etc., etc., etc., when I composed the initial post. I don't think you'll find too many of those types of people here on GlockTalk. When my 86 year old grandmother comes on here to offer advice and information, I'll know it's time to find another site. I also wasn't referring to small handed men or women with inferior grip strengths, etc., etc. Most people here that read my post (beside you, for some reason) were fully able to comprehend that I was referring to able-bodied, non-handicapped, red-blooded, American gun toting men--a group that is generally pretty hearty and not afraid to take charge. I guess next time I post I'll take a few hours to consider every conceivable possiblity in the universe that might not support my generalization so as not to confuse the less astute readers like yourself.
If you'll notice I never bashed any other cartridges, I just proffered that the 10mm is a ballistically superior cartridge to the other mainstream ones available and for a full-size pistol, the G20 offers everything--and more--that other models do not; i.e. superior ballistics in the 10mm cartridge and exceptional capacity, excellent recoil management, etc., etc. I also debunked many of the myths about the G20 and the 10mm in general that have become false and "common" knowledge among many uninformed handgunners with little to no experience with the 10mm. I never made the assertion, as you incorrectly seem to believe, that I recommend the 10mm or the G20 for every conceivable situation or circumstance. I even made the tacit recommendation of using a .40 S&W barrel for practicing, plinking, etc., as I prefer to do. I shoot .40 S&W & .45 acp all the time, as well as many other calibers. I can assure you that despite your ill-conceived assumptions, I don't use DoubleTap 10mm ammo to thin the squirrel population around my home (well, at least not most of the time) nor do I plan on starting out my toddler boy with a G20 as his first gun.
My myth debunking and criticism of others that bash the 10mm were directed at people that are generally experienced with firearms. As evidence of this I posted the paragraph about the range master who was amazed that I had been competitive with a 10mm at an IDPA match. I think it's reasonable to assume that a range master who did not appear to have small hands, wasn't wearing a business suit, gave no indication of having any lack of grip strength, and was a full-grown male not burdened by a wheel chair, arm braces, slings, or any other medical complications or devices that would preclude him from being able to handle normal handguns (Does that spell it out for you, Forrest Gump?); would be a person that is competent with, and knowledgeable about, standard handguns and their cartridges. Similarly, when I remarked about the "wimpy" FBI agents, it should be reasonable to assume that with the training and physical fitness requirements of FBI agents, there should be no concerns about lack of strength, unfamiliarity with firearms, recoil of the 10mm, etc. And considering the fact that they were using thin framed S&W platforms with single stacked magazines, grip size should have been of little to no concern--unless the FBI had, without my knowledge, temporarily expanded its medical parameters and had become the country's largest employer of Little People of America.
So go have some fun and shoot your 9mm, .380, or whatever caliber you enjoy. Just leave my 10mm alone and all will be fine for me and all the rest of the men here on the 10 Ring.
Merry Christmas and I hope your wife or girlfriend buys you two G20's and some Double Tap Ammo for stocking stuffers. You can always re-gift them to me if you're not able to handle them.
~M.Green
nickE10mm 12-25-2006, 14:56 Originally posted by Photocop
... You can always re-gift them .... ~M.Green
haha I love well placed Seinfeld snippits!
Originally posted by Merkavaboy
quote:
I've taken the liberty to highlight some of the more derogatory statements in your thread. You wonder why people get upset at people like you when you flount the so-called "superiority" of the 10mm?
When I read your post, the only thing that I could think of was: How absolutely arrorgant and condescending you are towards those who do not agree with your opinion regarding the superiority of the 10mm.
Allow me to point out a few reality checks to you and the rest of you "10mm superiority" mind-set people.
As was mentioned, the availability of ammo is but one issue. Availability of 9mm loads are probably over 5 times greater than the 10mm. Even the lowly .38Spl. has more factory rounds available than the 10mm. But we all know that already...
The 10mm is not a superior caliber for self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. Not EVERYBODY who chooses to own or carry a firearm for self-defense is as capable of handling a 10mm like you; far from it. People come in all different sizes, sex and shooting ability, or is that something that is lost upon you? There are people who don't have the arm/wrist strength to handle the recoil/muzzle flip of anything over something as small as a .380ACP. So does that mean that someone who chooses a .22LR or .25ACP pistol for SD somehow "probably have no business shooting guns in the first place" like you wrote?
Or how about the elderly couple who live in an apartment on the wrong side of the tracks, and want something for SD? Think they should run out and buy a $600 GLOCK 10mm loaded with hot Double Tap JHP loads, or would they be better served buying a $200 .38Spl. revolver that they both feel comfortable in being able to hold and shoot?
How about the average businessman who gets a pistol permit because he carries alot of money/valueables. He wears a suit to work every day and wants something that he can comfortably conceal upon his person and that is light weight and won't drag his pants down or make his suit jacket lopsided? Is the 10mm best for him?
What about the average gun owner who enjoys going to the indoor range and shooting 50 or 100 rounds once every month just for fun, but who also uses his gun for home defense and keeps near by where his wife can also access it if necessary? Think a heavy recoiling 10mm is best this these people?
Or how about someone like me, who's been shooting handguns of all calbers for over 20 years, who also has a pistol permit and carries on a daily basis. I have small hands, and I find that a G-19 with a grip reduction fits my hand even better than an unmodified G-19 frame. The caliber I choose to carry and shoot is the 9x19mm. I consider myself an intelligent and knowledgeable firearms owner (I've been studying on guns/ammo since I was 10 years old). I don't have a "mindless aversion to the mighty 10mm". In fact, I have a S&W M-1066 that I purchased as soon as they were available. I also have handguns in calibers from .22LR to .45Colt. And just because I don't own or shoot a G-20, does that make me someone who "probably have no business shooting guns in the first place"? With a statement like that coming from you, I'm more inclined to think the complete opposite.
Just because people don't enjoy shooting a 10mm for informal plinking or formal shoots, or they don't carry a 10mm into the field while hunting, or they don't choose to carry a 10mm for self-defense or carry it in uniform as a duty sidearm, that doesn't make them "ignorant", "wimpy" or a "wuss", nor does that lend them to harbor "mindless aversion" to the 10mm, nor does it make them become inflicted with "collossal ignorance in the world of handguns and ballistics".
I've decided that I won't even go into commenting about your derogatory statement about people with small hands like "a malnourished third grader's" and "If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser".
And you wonder why people tend to flame the 10mm and the people like you who like touting it's "superiority"? You, sir (and I use that term lightly) are the reason why. Your presumption of knowing what's best for EVERYBODY shows the rest of us (who really are intelligent and knowledgeable about firearms) just how ignorant, arrogant and self-righteous YOU and many other pro-10mm "superiority" posters truely are.
Let me take the parts you have chosen to highlight:
"The answer to this debate, as we intelligent gunners here on the 10 Ring already know, is the G20 in 10mm!! Superior ballistics with exceptional capacity." We can have long arguments, and I do, about how to determine the effectiveness of different cartridges for self defence but the crucial evidence is that the 10mm is the best hunting round in a service size auto pistol and the G20 has a fifteen round magazine. What is there to make any significant argument about? This is not saying that all other cartridges are useless - just that the 10mm is better.
If you question the "mindless aversion to the mighty 10mm" of many people, not just on this site, you have not been paying attention. The aversion of many is precisely that. The "not in my gunsafe" attitude is very common. Why? What has the 10mm done to them that they rant on against it. If you actually look you will see that the 10mm people shoot other cartridges and like many. Most of them have their place but just as the 9mm people generally think that the .380 and .32 are insufficient, I and many others think that the 9mm is insufficiient. That too does not mean that it does not work but just that more powerful calibers work better. Given that, most of us would happily carry a 9mm, or a .380 or a .32 if circumstances made that the more practical choice for concealment and so on. Would we choose to be in a gunfight with one? Of course not, but any pistol is a compromise between power, concealability and convenience. Any gun is usually better than no gun and we rarely know that we are going to be in a gunfight. That is why we don't carry a rifle or a shotgun around with us.
Then you totally misread the sentence, "This statement almost implies that 10mm is a bad choice to anybody that isn't smart enough to know better." Photocop is actually talking about the attitude of, and quoting, the anti 10mm people to 10mm people and not the attitude of 10mm people to them. Once again, there are many vociferous people who react as though the choice of the 10mm is a mental disease.
You take exception to, "I wish the 10 bashers would knock it off because it makes them look ignorant. If you're too much of a wuss to handle the recoil of a G20, then you probably have no business shooting guns in the first place." and yes, it does go over the top a little but the fact is that most people, even with small hands and slight stature can handle the G20 and the 10mm. It takes training and people can't expect to reach that level within their first few weeks but the 10mm from an auto is easier than the .357 Mag from a medium weight revolver. The FBI's S&W 10 series were heavy pistols and recoil was not a problem and I believe the stories about them being too feeble to handle it were false stories put around to cover an internal turf war. The 10 series were too heavy to cary with comfort but that is another problem.
Neither do you like, "I love the statements like "After about fifty rounds, the G20 is just too punishing to the hand and is downright unpleasant to shoot". Who's hands do these people have? A malnourished third grader's? If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser.", but the quote within the quote is once again the attitude of the anti 10mm people and it is once again the repetition of mindless nonsense. For the very great majority of well trained shooters the 10mm would be no problem for many more than 50 rounds. You see the same thing with gun magazine writers who say that the 10mm is too much for mortal man but the same people rave about the .44MAG. The rest of the quote is not saying that these people are wusses but just wondering quite how feeble they would have to be to meet the criteria of the anti 10mm people. It is not PhotoCop accusing non 10mm people of these things but him wondering what small number of people would meet their criteria.
The sentence, "It was just another case of collossal ignorance in the world of handguns and ballistics." was refering to a range instructor who should have known better and could not have been a wuss. It was another example of mindless and inexplicable predjuice and not saying that everyone who doesn't shoot the 10mm is a collossal ignoramous as you seem to imply.
I am already fed up with writing this. You need to learn to read what is written and not imagine what suits your prejudices.
Only a small minority of the shooters I know give grudging acceptance to the 10mm. The majority treat it like a social disease. That is the problem.
English
SilverState 12-25-2006, 17:14 Originally posted by English
a small minority of the shooters I know give grudging acceptance to the 10mm. The majority treat it like a social disease. That is the problem.
Have you ever heard the saying "the truth is somewhere between"? That's the case here. The 10mm should not be treated like a social disease. In contrast, the 10mm is not the end all or be all of handgun cartridges. It is great that the 10mm exists. But if it did not, even intelligent people would live without it.
So for those that are almost cult-like in their following of the 10mm, whatever floats your boat. And to those that hate it, that's your business.
People are too quick to get offended...
Not everyone on a gun forum is going to agree that one cartridge is better than another for all purposes.
Bravo-Four 12-25-2006, 18:21 Originally posted by SilverState
185gr Gold Dot @ 1225fps.
Not all...
Actually, it was made recently.
:tongueout:
Heh, how many rounds does it hold again, 7? Whether it is a Colt 1911, or a Wilson Combat, they are all the same thing over and over really. When compared to a G20, I don't see how it wins in any facet. But that is of course, my opinion, and I will try to see yours. Truth be told, my G20 is currently holding 21 rounds of DT 180gr Gold Dot. Sorry if Im a little blind, but having 3 times the capacity with a superior cartridge sounds like what im looking for, that along with no external safeties to fumble with seems like a more modernized high tech Slug-Caster.
Anyways, 1911's arent entirely that bad. For instance I have this door in my house that keeps closing, so I jam the 1911 in the hinge and it stays open. I doubt I could fit my glock in the door like that. Thanks Colt!
SilverState 12-25-2006, 21:51 Originally posted by Bravo-Four
Heh, how many rounds does it hold again, 7? Whether it is a Colt 1911, or a Wilson Combat, they are all the same thing over and over really. When compared to a G20, I don't see how it wins in any facet. But that is of course, my opinion, and I will try to see yours. Truth be told, my G20 is currently holding 21 rounds of DT 180gr Gold Dot. Sorry if Im a little blind, but having 3 times the capacity with a superior cartridge sounds like what im looking for, that along with no external safeties to fumble with seems like a more modernized high tech Slug-Caster.
Anyways, 1911's arent entirely that bad. For instance I have this door in my house that keeps closing, so I jam the 1911 in the hinge and it stays open. I doubt I could fit my glock in the door like that. Thanks Colt!
Heh, you are just determined to talk smack, right?
First you make an stupid comment about grain. And when I show you how silly that was, then you move on to the gun itself. Since when is this thread about how no other gun in the world is worth carrying unless it is a Glock 20?
Would it surprise you to know that I own a Glock 20?
Would it surprise you to know that most situations involving the use of a handgun result in the discharge of 1-4 shots.
But I guess you just want to talk smack...
It is people like you that prompt the post above about "arrogant" 10mm people. You talk (or write) before you think.
Heh, you really show your "intelligence".
VN350X10 12-26-2006, 00:28 Interesting thread, all the way around.
Regarding the possible 10MM contraversy(sp) if used in a self defense situation, lets move this to a home invasion.
If I choose to stop the bad guy with a 10MM the jury might be influenced by the POS atty trying to fry me. But if I use my Mossberg 590A1, the jury "sees" a 12 ga as a normal hunting firearm that just about everybody has.
As much as I love my hot loaded 10MM, it's nothing ballisticly compared to even a #8 trap load, let alone a 3",#4 buck magnum load !
uncle albert
Bravo-Four 12-26-2006, 03:09 Originally posted by SilverState
Heh, you are just determined to talk smack, right?
First you make an stupid comment about grain. And when I show you how silly that was, then you move on to the gun itself. Since when is this thread about how no other gun in the world is worth carrying unless it is a Glock 20?
Would it surprise you to know that I own a Glock 20?
Would it surprise you to know that most situations involving the use of a handgun result in the discharge of 1-4 shots.
But I guess you just want to talk smack...
It is people like you that prompt the post above about "arrogant" 10mm people. You talk (or write) before you think.
Heh, you really show your "intelligence".
No smacktalk really, just trying to make sense of your purpose here in the 10ring. Whats really funny is how you backup the 45acp by listing -DoubleTap- Data, try wally white box 230gr and you will be more on the money. Like I said, im not talking "smack" I just find it funny that some people consider 45 superior when all the facts and data are right in front of you. Heh, funny you call me arrogant for poking fun about this subject when you are the one with your little feelers hurt.
Lets just recap the thread
10mm>.45
[/thread]
.41 mag > 10mm!
:shocked: :supergrin: :tongueout:
:tongueout:
.41>10>.357
:supergrin:
mmc45414 12-26-2006, 11:03 Originally posted by Bravo-Four
Whats really funny is how you backup the 45acp by listing -DoubleTap- Data, try wally white box 230gr and you will be more on the money. ... I just find it funny that some people consider 45 superior when all the facts and data are right in front of you. ...
Lets just recap the thread
10mm>.45
[/thread] Actually, I was the one that quoted the DT numbers, and I did so because it seems like people tend to boast on the 10mm performance of DT, but want to compare it to other standard loadings. When in fact, the data right in front of you is that DT-to-DT, the 10mm gains less than 100fps over the 45acp. And if you want to compare it to WBW from Wally World, then there is no comparison, since they don’t seem to offer cheap 10mm ammo, but I think that has already been mentioned…
And to recap the thread, the OP pretty much presented the 10mm as being vastly superior to anything else available, in what could be considered to be a condescending manner. All myself and a few others have suggested is that it is not all that radically more powerful than other more mainstream cartridges.
And just to restate, I don’t dislike the 10mm, I came to this tread because I want one…:supergrin:
Short Cut 12-26-2006, 11:14 http://russellarch.com/uploaded_images/dogs-722893.jpg
:supergrin:
larry starling 12-26-2006, 11:15 Anyways, 1911's arent entirely that bad. For instance I have this door in my house that keeps closing, so I jam the 1911 in the hinge and it stays open. I doubt I could fit my glock in the door like that. Thanks Colt! [/B]
Every FOOL and Idiot is intitled to an opinion. And remember that old saying opinions are like A**Holes everyone has one.....
:thumbsup:
Bravo-Four 12-26-2006, 11:21 Did you know you are boasting stats that are -under- the power curve the 10mm had? Yes, it was close, but those stats are from a 5" barrel. Even with a handicap crutch it still doesnt meet or exceed. How about we put that 180gr 10mm DT in a 6in barrel and show you what real numbers are if you want to split hairs.
That being said, 185gr 45acp is not real 45 ammo and never will be. In addition to having a small capacity due to its clinically obese shape, there really is no reason for comparison.
Whats my point? The 10mm simply does everything the others can do, but at higher levels of performance across the board. Just because I can't buy it at Wal-Mart doesnt mean I sit on the curb and cry about it. Wal-Mart sells crap anyways, so I don't find myself in there often.
Now I admit I was a bit annoyed at Silver State and the lawyer thing painting the 10mm in a bad light, when it really doesn't amount to anything but legal smoke and mirrors. But all I did was call him counselor, you can decide for yourself if that is bad. But let's not name call or get ugly about it sheesh. I like .45s too, I love 10s, but I have other calibers, and I don't mind accepting new ones. I think if one can carry and shoot a magnum level cartridge well, then that person is well served by their handgun. I think that people that can shoot less powered cartridges well are well served by their weapons too. Maybe not as much as a magnum level cartridge.... but power levels aside, shot placement is king, always will be.
40Magnum 12-26-2006, 11:41 I would feel well armed (for a pistol) against a human target using either cartridge. Personal preference goes a long way with either one. Although I love the 10mm and consider it my favorite, I also own 45s for other reasons.
The 45 recoils differently than the 10mm does. Less snap, more of a push. Using modern bullet technologies such as Remingtons Golden Saber and Speers Gold Dot, the 45 is even better than it was before. I would have to say that I shy away from any loadings not 230 grain as one of the major benefits of the 230s is penetration. That does not mean the 185 +P is bad at all. Tons of LEO organizations using it. Once again, simple preference.
In my opinion, the 10mm has more versatility in bullet weights by far. Also, the sectional density of the bullet would seem to promote just about as much penetration as you want for a particular application. I also dont subscribe to the idea that 12 to 14 inches of penetration is ideal. You can't have barrier penetration AND 12 to 14 inches at the same time. I would rather have two holes in the bad guy and the 10mm will do that all day long with any loading. My 800x loads push 180s out of my 6 inch longslide at almost 1400 fps.
My personal preference, if I had one, would be for the 10mm. However, I own two Glock 21s along with my G20 and Longslide. The idea that the 45 has been around and performing well for 100 years is a testament to its worth. The low and slow theory does work well. The reason I use the 10mm is because of the versatility. I like to handload and can make it do just about anything I want.
In the end, I have both and like both. I do my part, the bad guy wont know the difference. Defeating barriers, 10mm wins hands down. Hunting, unless you go 45 super or SMC, 10mm wins hands down due to penetration and bullet drop if you are insane enough to go out past 50 yards with it. Doing what the 45 was designed to do (stop people), the 45 still does it better than 98 percent of what is out there.
nickE10mm 12-26-2006, 12:52 Originally posted by Short Cut
http://russellarch.com/uploaded_images/dogs-722893.jpg
my thoughts EXACTLY .... I think you guys have both made your points ... some very good ones were made btw. Lets leave it at that :) Cheers
mmc45414 12-26-2006, 14:54 Originally posted by nickE10mm
my thoughts EXACTLY .... I think you guys have both made your points ... some very good ones were made btw. Lets leave it at that :) Cheers I agree, we started circling the drain back on page two...
:rofl:
Fight!
Battle!
:duel:
SilverState 12-26-2006, 15:10 I like to discuss guns and ammo with people who have different experience than me. That's how we learn. And to those who were offended by the topic I brought up (i.e. being in court and having your choice in caliber used against you), it was not meant to offend people, but rather to provoke thought. Seems like I succeeded for the most part. People were forced to think about their choice in caliber for self-defense and are now better able to defend such an attack, if it was brought against them in a murder trial involving an affirmative self-defense.
Make no mistake, I have nothing to gain here.
And, I did not say I dislike the 10mm. I said that I CHOOSE TO CARRY A .45ACP 1911 AS A CCW WEAPON.
As for Bravo-Four, I can't even begin to communicate with him/her. Our minds appear to operate on two different planes. But it seems like the rest of you are reasonable enough to understand that the 10mm is a great cartridge, but so is the .45acp. And the .45acp might have a little less baggage (due in part to its long service record) if you found yourself in court...
Im am not undergunned with my 1911s loaded with 185gr 1225fps Gold Dots. Same thing if I tried to conceal carry my Glock 20, Delta Elite, or Kimber Stainless Target 10 loaded with similar ammo.
:wavey:
Heh, my door keeps closing, so I better stuff my Wilson Combat in there to keep it open.
:rofl:
Photocop 12-26-2006, 21:04 Just for the record from the original poster:
Though I am an avid 10mm enthusiast, I do not preach that it offers ballistics that are head and shoulders above the .45acp. The .45 is a good round, the 10mm just does everthing the .45 can do, only a little better. The wide range of bullet weights that it can handle also make it a more versatile cartridge for anyone that handloads or hunts. And it's smaller diameter lends itself to hi-capacity (though some of the modern .45's are starting to blur the hi-cap line; i.e. Springfield XD's, the G21, and G21"SF" if it ever really does come out, etc.) a little better as well as superior sectional density for bullets of similar weight. The purpose of my post was to express my bewilderment over the lack of respect that the 10mm gets from so many ignorant gunners that are otherwise well-informed.
Again, I don't bash other cartridges and I regularly recommend other cartridges, like the .45acp, to other people because I know that they're not the extreme gun enthusiast I am, they're inexperienced with firearms, or they want readily available ammo. Also, modern bullet designs have begun to level the playing field a tad over how things were even a mere eighteen years ago when I started in law enforcement and was carrying 9mm, 115gr. Winchester Silvertips that required multiple head shots just to dispatch small, wounded deer.
As I always remind people, ALL standard handgun cartidges are poor substitutions for rifle cartrdiges when it comes to killing people or large animals. I just like the 10mm for the reasons stated and it makes me cringe when I hear the cartrdige maligned to the degree that it regularly is.
I don't want to get hit with one of SilverState's, 1911-launched 185gr.+P .45acp rounds any more than I want to get hit with a DoubleTap 10mm loading of any bullet weight from a G20. They're both fine cartridges and both fine weapons. It just bugs me when guys shooting 9mm, .40 S&W's, and .45acp's act as if the 10mm is some "whacko" round that serves no purpose when, in fact, it serves any purpose their cartridge does and does it more effectively.
40Magnum 12-27-2006, 01:10 We can probably chalk quite a bit of this up to just about every ammo manufacturer after Norma. The only round that even modestly attempted to get up to 10mm original speck is the 175 grain Silvertip load from Winchester.
It was this way for years before others finally got it back to where it should be. Still, the perception is out there and hard to shake.
HK45Mark23 12-27-2006, 17:23 http://www.paladinrepublic.com/ywoman50ae.mpg
OK for all who think the 10mm is just too much gun for any mortal. Here is a woman shooting a .50AE 10" Desert Eagle.
I know I have seen this video before. Does any one know where a better presentation of this video is available?
SilverState 12-27-2006, 17:57 Originally posted by HK45Mark23
http://www.paladinrepublic.com/ywoman50ae.mpg
OK for all who think the 10mm is just too much gun for any mortal. Here is a woman shooting a .50AE 10" Desert Eagle.
I know I have seen this video before. Does any one know where a better presentation of this video is available?
Now that's what I call an ideal ccw weapon!
I know my DE50AE fits nicely in my front pocket...
;)
Short Cut 12-27-2006, 18:07 Originally posted by HK45Mark23
http://www.paladinrepublic.com/ywoman50ae.mpg
OK for all who think the 10mm is just too much gun for any mortal. Here is a woman shooting a .50AE 10" Desert Eagle.
I know I have seen this video before. Does any one know where a better presentation of this video is available?
I'll see that and raise you this http://youtube.com/watch?v=jQlPW3a0tu0
windplex 12-27-2006, 18:17 Originally posted by Bullman
What's the difference? Lawyer hype is all. Back in the days of the revolver being the Law Enforcement weapon of choice, .357 Magnum was king, 10mm isn't that big a step off from .357 Magnum. Lawyers use some smoke and mirrors "he uses a 10mm, he is a killer" and that is supposed to make a difference? Doesn't matter what you use to take a life, it is still taking a life, justified or not justified is the question to be answered in a criminal trial.
Hearing this sort of nonsense just makes me ill.
Bullman, Some LEs are sensitive to such tings since have been grilled in court and so do not touch the standard trigger or risk being accused of installing a "hair trigger" and so the argumentative attorney's go on.
At this time I merely aspire to own a 10mm. However I am certain it is the most effective defensive pistol round available. The numbers it produces can only be charachterized as "dreaming" for other pistol calibers and cartridges.
It is a darn shame the FBI dropped it instead of offering a vriety of loads for its agents or additional training for its agents.
Such decisions have far reaching consequences for calibers; just as when the FBI dropped the 9mm. it was the begining of the end in the USA for LE use of that round. Sure some agencies still have it but few.
I wish 10mm had a larger base of shooters, and guns, to supply so that the round were available everywhere and available for lower prices to those of us who do not reload, yet. Alas the 10mm seems to be relegated to a user group that is smaller in numbers, but much more dedicated than other owner's groups. Not a bad place to be for a round. I would say it is similar to the 44 magnum in its following, except it has not corresponding carbine that I am aware of as the 44 has for decades.
Please know that the 10mm owners group are not the only admirers of the 10mm round. Windplex
HK45Mark23 12-27-2006, 18:47 I was just making the point that a young woman can shoot a .50AE. So why should many people complain about a little 10MM. I mean come on, it is not that big.
Also for those who say, gee my 45ACP produces only 75ftlbs less E than a 10MM, has any one quantified that to the extra force exerted on the ¼” area that the slug actually contacts?
Has any one considered that the bullet is not contacting a sq ft of surface?
If 100 lbs is placed with a solid flat 1’ square bottom that 100lbs is exerting 100ftlbs of force against that floor or other baring surface.
If you do the math you will find that those 100lbs is spread out over 144 square inches and 576 square quarter inches.
That force over 144 square inches is actually only 0.69444444444444444444444444444444 lbs per inch and that same force over 576 quarter inches is 0.17361111111111111111111111111111 lbs per quarter inch.
If that same force was focused into a quarter inch by making the bearing surface only ¼” then this would actually be 100lbs force in a quarter inch.
But in this case we need to multiply to know the actual force per quarter inch. We know there is energy being exerted and it is expressed in ft lbs E but we don’t know how that translates when it is focused in only a ¼” area.
Since there are 12” in a foot, and a foot lb is equal to 144 square inches and equal to 576 square ¼” then you must multiply the mean ft lbs by 576 to actually know the force exerted upon a body of mass when it cones in contact with the ballistic missile.
So unless I am incorrect a measly little 75ftlbs E really = 43,200 lbs of extra force exerted in only ¼”.
This also means that a ballistic missile that produces 400ftlbs E actually exerts 230,400. lbs at P.O.I., and a ballistic missile that produces 700ftlbs E actually exerts 403,200 lbs at P.O.I…
Of course that force is exerted by less than 1/3 of an ounce of lead and the energy is dissipated and absorbed quickly.
SilverState 12-27-2006, 19:18 Oh yeah, the .45acp has proven to be such a poor manstopper...
:crazy:
Photocop 12-27-2006, 19:29 HK45Mark23:
I think your math might be a little "fuzzy" as they say in the political world. Muzzle energy is just a relative measure that it used for ballistics and is computed with the following formula for Imperial measuring outcomes (ft./lbs.): E=MV2/450400
Energy (ft./lbs.) = Mass (grains) x the square of the Velocity (fps) and divided by 450400
Since these measurements are made only with the bullets' mass (weight)and velocity being in consideration, and both bullets are roughly similar in diameter (.400 vs. .451), I don't think your standard application of the definition of ft./lbs. applies. This method of computing ft/lbs might be applicable for general scientific purposes, but for ballistics use, I think it's a different story.
What I think you're touching on here, which you may or may not be aware of, is the term "sectional density", which speaks to a bullet's ability to penetrate based on the relationship between its width, length, and mass. The 10mm does outshine the .45acp in terms of sectional density with similary weighted bullets. Since the 10mm uses a smaller diameter to achieve the same bullet weight, the bullet is necessarily longer than that of a .45 because there is a finite amount of bullet weight that has to be crammed into a bore that is several thousandths smaller. Think of the penetration of a small, cylindrical projectile at speed vs. a wide, flat projectile at the same speed. The p.s.i. generated by the small, cylindrical projectile will always be higher than a wide, flat projectile. In extreme terms, think of a javelin vs. an ashtray.
Sectional Density is defined as the weight (w) of the bullet in pounds divided by the square of its diameter (d) in inches: w/d^2 = pounds per square inch.
Therefore a 10mm, 200 grain (.400") bullet renders a sectional density of .179. A .45acp, 200 grain (.451") bullet renders .140. What this difference really means in terms of "felt" pressure upon impact or ability to penetrate, I do not know.
This is just my scientific opinion and I could be wrong. If anyone else here can interject some expertise, I'd appreciate it.
TheStreetKing 12-27-2006, 19:30 Originally posted by Photocop
If you're too much of a wuss to handle the recoil of a G20, then you probably have no business shooting guns in the first place. I love the statements like "After about fifty rounds, the G20 is just too punishing to the hand and is downright unpleasant to shoot". Who's hands do these people have? A malnourished third grader's? If that's really the case then I guess they couldn't shovel dirt for more than two minutes, couldn't hammer a nail, couldn't punch a speed bag, and probably couldn't shake another man's hand without being accused of being a cross-dresser.
......This is just my anti-anti-10mm rant for today. Please discuss........ [/B] This is the greatest statement yet, Hahaha and it's soo true. I'd like to see the whiners that complain about the g20 shoot 50 Full power 357 Loads through a Scandium J-Frame S&W.
HK45Mark23 12-27-2006, 19:56 Hey thanks for the formula for ft lbs E, I did know it already. And I am fairly familiar with sectional density, although that brought us to the phrase “Felt or Perceived Pressure.”
My point was that if a measurement was of a ft lb, yet that force was actually exerted or distributed over a quarter inch, then you would multiply the ft lb force by how many quarter inches there are in the square foot which is 576.
This is actual energy exerted at P.O.I…
What I am not taking in account is actual surface contact patch. Meaning I am not differentiating in the face diameter of a 9mm, 10mm or .45cal.
I am just generalizing that any one of those bullets are not hitting a full square foot face on, but relatively in a quarter inch.
So if a ballistic missile has a face surface of ¼” then the ft lb E numbers reported by the afore mentioned formula should be multiplied by 576 in order to know the actual mean pressure at P.O.I…
I am only referring to a simple conversion kind of like knowing that 100lbs placed on one foot of floor actually means the floor is sustaining 0.69444444444444444444444444444444 lb per inch pressure.
I am feeling awful, so if I did make a mathematical mistake sorry. Hope this clarifies my thoughts, as delusional I may be at this time.
Photocop 12-27-2006, 19:57 Glock23Guy:
The i |