View Full Version : Opinions on Kahr problems
wingsprint 12-22-2006, 21:08 The following are my personal opinions based on my experience as a gun owner and a person that has spent over half of my life running a business that deals in precision everyday. I hope that this will be used for it intended purpose and does not offend anyone.
I have owned a company that builds race car engines for almost twenty years. I employ six associates, two of which have degrees in mechanical engineering, and one is a retired General Motors engineer (he wears a pocket protector). My team works with everything from stock block IMCA modified engines, $30,000 Sprint car engines, and even cylinder head work on Indy Car engines. Our CNC machines run 9 hours a day five days a week. Precision is a way of life in my business. I feel that I will offer a slightly different perspective on the mechanics of a firearm.
I am an avid shooter and own a verity of pistols. My collection includes a SIG 226, Glock 19, Beretta PX4, Stoeger Cougar, and a Daewoo DP51. My latest additions are a Kahr CW9 and a PM9.
I would like to offer some opinions on why I feel some Kahr owners have experienced problems with their new guns. Most of the issues I have read about involve FTF, FTRTB, penning and jamming. It is my opinion that most of these issues were caused by the tight tolerances in these new guns. Just like a new engine, the moving metal parts need to seat to each other properly to ensure smooth operation. This takes time, clean surfaces, and proper lubrication. In addition I believe that many of these issues were caused by “operator error”, insufficient cleaning, and lack of proper lubrication.
The first impressions of my two new Kahrs were two things: They are over engineered and have very tight tolerances! New out of the box you can feel how tight it is when racking the slide. The spring and guide rod are very close to each other. There is a lot of metal to metal friction inside these little guys! These are weapons built with a very high level of precision. This is not a Glock or SIG that is built with “looser” tolerances (not a bad thing, just a different approach to building a fine gun) that will fire new out of the box without any lube. Kahr recommends a 200 round break in, I can see why. I also feel Kahr has failed to direct customers how to properly break in the weapon. It will take more than just cleaning it, lubing it and firing it 200 times.
What follows is how I went about preparing both guns for break in.
Before firing for the first time a Kahr must be thoroughly cleaned. Even the slightest amount of dirt or metal shavings could cause problems in a new tight gun, as the gun is broken in this will become less of a concern. I soaked the entire slide in Mineral Sprits for an hour and then flushed it out with clean Mineral Sprits. I was amazed at the amount of “stuff” that was in both guns. I can see how some new Kahr owners have has issues with FTRB, and jamming- It will take more than a cleaning with CLP prior to using the gun for the first time to ensure trouble free operation. To finish the initial cleaning I sprayed the slide mechanism down with brake cleaner. All assemblies in the lower were cleaned with brake cleaner and allowed to dry. I used Tri Flow lubricant on the lower’s assemblies.
To say the Kahr needs to be well lubricated is an understatement! It needs to be dripping wet during the break in period. When any metal mechanism is built to such close tolerances, its contact surfaces must be very clean and properly lubricated. Think about the amount of force, friction and pressure placed on these moving parts in the slide when a gun is shot. These contact areas must have proper lubrication. After the cleaning I soaked the entire slide mechanisms and barrel assemblies in CLP for one hour. All of the normal spots on the slide received a light coat of a top secret light grease (a Teflon based product) we use on racing engine bearings during assembly. I used a mixture of Mobil 1 and a small amount of this grease to re-lubricate the slide, guide rod and barrel every 50 rounds during the break in.
Both new guns performed flawlessly with not one problem. After 300 rounds and another thorough cleaning and lubrication both guns are operating perfectly. The slide and trigger actions are outstanding and continue to improve as I put more rounds through them.
OUTSTANDING post! MODERATORS: sticky???
:iloveyou: :holysheep: :goodpost: :agree:
My budget is tight because I bought a new PM9 and SmartCarry holster quite literally yesterday, and I'm spending the rest of my "family vacation" (read: CABIN FEVER) compulsively checking glocktalk and thinking about breaking in the newbaby. I'm VERY glad to see your post, as I was planning on Hoppes #9 solvent and a bit of CLP before the first 300 rounds.
Again, considering budget constraints (I h-a-t-e not being able to make full credit card payments) I want to keep spending to a minimum (i.e. stuff I already have or have access to is ideal). I'm also a first-timer with owning or cleaning a handgun. Would you consider the following acceptable?
1) Use Hoppes solvent on entire slide assembly (I assume this refers to the "upper" part/parts system of the firearm)
2) Soak upper assembly for a couple hours (or overnight) in Hoppes lubricent
3) Remove assembly, allow it to dry. Wipe down upper assembly with CLP (throw on some Tetra Gun Grease on a few points perhaps?).
4) Take care of all remaining contact parts/points below with more CLP and a LITTLE Hoppes lube where appropriate.
I don't want to cut corners, but I'm also concerned that overlubrication will cause problems in itself. Meaning, what kind of cleaning should I do AFTER the 300... it sounds like it'll be dirt city in their with all the oils and whatnot.
rayray2js 12-23-2006, 04:15 Great to hear someone speaking with hope about the PM9.
Purchased mine used at a gun show a week ago. Serial #VA9900. Fired 100 rounds through it that day without an issue. Anxious to take it out again on Sunday.
I agree with the sticky. Thanks for the post.
wingsprint 12-23-2006, 07:16 Originally posted by craig_o
OUTSTANDING post! MODERATORS: sticky???
:iloveyou: :holysheep: :goodpost: :agree:
Would you consider the following acceptable?
1) Use Hoppes solvent on entire slide assembly (I assume this refers to the "upper" part/parts system of the firearm)
2) Soak upper assembly for a couple hours (or overnight) in Hoppes lubricent
3) Remove assembly, allow it to dry. Wipe down upper assembly with CLP (throw on some Tetra Gun Grease on a few points perhaps?).
4) Take care of all remaining contact parts/points below with more CLP and a LITTLE Hoppes lube where appropriate.
I don't want to cut corners, but I'm also concerned that overlubrication will cause problems in itself. Meaning, what kind of cleaning should I do AFTER the 300... it sounds like it'll be dirt city in their with all the oils and whatnot.
I am not sure about the soak in Hoppes solvent. I would use Mineral Spirits. You can get a gallon of odorless Mineral Spirits at Home Depot for $3.00. I highly recommend using the grease on all of the areas in the slide that rub against each other.
Once broken in you will not have to lube the gun as heavy as during the break in period.
I can afford the Mineral Spirits :animlol:
Man, it's gonna keep feeling like I'm going to sleep on Christmas Eve every night 'till I get home.
Oh, I wasn't planning on soaking in solvent just for the record:thumbsup:
I never thought of using mineral spirit to clean my guns. I don't know anything about mineral spirit. Safe on plastics and all finishes?
For that price I could buy a gallon of it and submerge all my guns for cleaning instead of using a whole can of CLP. Dunk my Ruger 22/45 to do moderate clean job instead of doing a full disassemble.
I used Gun Scrubber on a Norinco 1911 and was great cleaning the metal but ate the plastic grips. Won't even try the plastic safe version now.
Now I stick with CLP Breakfree for all my cleaning.
The general impression I've gotten about CLP is that it's an excellent protectant (not sure if that's even a word), a pretty good cleaner and a fair lube. I'm VERY open to discussion on that point.
It seems like the soak in CLP after the mineral spirits has the dual purpose of protecting the upper assembly (since it literally repels dirt, etc.) and providing a good foundation for further lubrication. I plan on using Tetra gun grease and Hoppes #9 lube on the upper after the mineral and CLP soak, and then using more CLP on the lower... not sure how I'll apply it there, but potentially as a spray.
Any and all opinions welcome.
TommyTomTom 12-23-2006, 14:24 I tend to agree with your post Wingsprint. I've had my current P9 for nearly 2-years and I am amazed at how tight it is. After hundreds of rounds, it is still tight; match grade tight. Absolutely no play in lockup.
I use a light coating of TW-25B on the entire barrel's surface, little dabs on the steel rails (tabs) on the frame, and Militec-1 or FP10 on the slide's rail cuts. I think 500 rounds is needed for a proper Kahr break-in...not 200. Strong ammo and strong grips helps too. A heavily sprung gun requires both.
I love my P9 and carry nearly every day.
Nice post. I have a new PM9 that all I did was clean it, lube it, polish the feed ramp and barrel hood very lightly, then shoot it. I shot the 500th rd thru it today and have yet to have any problems. I did own 2 others over the last year, one took forever to get 100% and one was fine. I think Kahr has worked out any problems in their more recent models and mine is a great CCW pistol.
pistola-x 12-25-2006, 19:20 I performed a routine cleaning (not including detail strip) before my first outing using solvent and BreakFree CLP.
The Kahr is obviously very tight and well made.
During the first firing, 100 rnds, there was a couple of failures to close with a new round. The action was quite stiff and needed to be pushed to battery. This could be ammo(S&B and Wolf used that day).
During detail clean/lube and inspection some metal to metal wear points were obvious, mostly at the barrel/slide contact points.
My recommendation is to use a very light coating of gun grease, applied with a brush, at barrel exterior(NOT IN THE BORE!)and slide rails. Use a good gun lube everywhere else.
With almost 900 rounds, including Ranger SXT and Gold Dot, this pistol has had no problems after initial break in period!
The Kahr MK 40 Elite 2003 has a great trigger and has surprised friends who have been impressed with how accurate and controllable it is.
Indy_Guy_77 12-26-2006, 00:35 on a 300 round break-in on a brand new gun like the Kahr, I would even go so far as to field strip it and clean it every 100 rounds. AT a minimum, do that half-way through break in.
You'll be suprised at the amount of 'stuff' in the frame rails!
I love my CW-40! Cleaned it fairly well when I bought it (new) and have right at 200 rounds through it.
I've not had a single FTFeed, FTEject, or FTFire with WWB 165gr FMJ or with Federal UMC 180gr JHP.
wingsprint 12-26-2006, 15:06 Originally posted by don527
I never thought of using mineral spirit to clean my guns. I don't know anything about mineral spirit. Safe on plastics and all finishes?
I have used mineral sprints on all of my guns and have never had a problem damaging surfaces or plastics. I know that more than a few Gunsmiths use mineral spirits to clean guns. I do not use it on polymer lowers, just to be safe.
SILVERBACK32 12-27-2006, 09:50 Now this is a very helpful and informative discussion !!!! Thanks for the good advice.
Kaiser Soze 12-27-2006, 14:09 I have a PM9, and even though it falls under the recall lot, it feeds hollowpoints like Cor-Bon 115's and Hydra-Shoks with no problems whatsoever.
My buddy bought a P40 and it kept jamming and FTF, but when i fired it, it was fine. He was limp-wristing it. After a few practice shots, he was firing and hitting with it pretty well, with no more hiccups.
38snapcaps 12-27-2006, 16:49 Boy, is it nice to see a very, very POSITIVE post on Kahrs!!
I've had a CW9 for about six months and have been delighted with it.
I would experience an FTRB, with the first round out of a fresh mag, now and then, at around the box and a half point, when the gun was getting pretty dirty. A good clean up and it was back to perfection.
Now that I have almost 1,300 rounds fired it doesn't get sticky at all even on the third or fourth box of cartridges.
I'm shopping for a K9 now and I'm planning on doing the break in to the letter as wingsprint described. I'm fastidious but this guy impresses me and I want to do the job beyond my habit. Two of my favorite sayings are, "New isn't clean enough", and "It's never clean enough"
Thank you wingsprint for taking me to a higher level of "clean", I just LOVE IT!.
Kahr's are not all that precise.
I admit I am not a mechanical engineer but am an Electrical engineer.
I have examined and owned Kahrs. They are accurate and can be reliable. Howver, Kahr frankly puts out a lot of guns that are not that well made. My first K9 Elite was in that category. It is not tight tolerances as the slide rattles on the frame. The parts are crude MIM it appears aside from the Cast Frame and the slide machined from some type of stainless barstock.
My first Kahr turned out to be an underflow when the cast frame is TOO short. This gun looked great but the slide would not return to battery and was TOO Long for the frame and hung a 1/16'th of an inch beyond the end of the frame.
Kahr's precision solution was to round off the back of the slide and slide plate to blend it with the frame which was a casting that was UNDERFLOWED making it too short.
Kahr guns look and feel great but they are not a precision company. They made things right by me but I don't think Kahr is a precision company. S&W is far better in terms of precision products.
TommyTomTom 12-27-2006, 23:23 That's a brutal experience with your first Kahr; that's too bad. The P9 I have is a magnificent example of engineering. There are no blemishes, the machining appears to be perfect to the eye, and the polymer frame is perfect from what I can tell. The slide to barrel lock-up is better than anything I own. In over 2-years of shooting -- no failures of any kind.
The K9s that I've fiddled with (never shot one yet) I would classify as just about perfect including the cast frame -- which is sometimes hard to pull off. Just beautiful work imo.
This probably sounds like I'm an apologist for Kahr -- I'm not. I've only owned two of them, but they are great examples from the company. My first one (P9) was nearly perfect (one minor cosmetic blemish inside the frame), and my second one appears to be perfect.
I've never owned a S&W, but I have heard they have great customer service. I've read some very good things about their new M&P line-up as well. They appear to be on somewhat of a roll right now.
Do you still own a Kahr?
I still have that K9 elite but it is an expensive small range gun.
Kahr admitted the problems and actually said the frame was an underflow and the gun SHOULD NOT have been released for commercial sale BUT was intended for a business to business transaction. (?)
My experience with S&W and Glocks have been 100%. Zero defects and 100% customer satisfaction with NO need for S&W returns on any of several firearms.
Frankly, I trust S&W to make and service their guns based on my experience and the experience of those on the www.smith-wessonforum.com
TommyTomTom 12-29-2006, 23:30 I'm definitely with you on the Glock; my experience has been 100% as well. I love them and have owned quite a few of them.
I've never owned S&W. I'm always pulling a good American company to step up and hopefully they can turn the M&P into a real contender. I'm always tempted to buy the $399 version @ Budsgunshop.com. I can always look for the higher capacity mags later. I think the M&P has a roll pin or two in the slide (which I hate), but as long as they have a better policy than Springfield, I could probably live with that. I 'played' with one @ Sportsman's Warehouse last month and I was very impressed with the grip and the trigger feel; they were both excellent.
I've had a K40 for years, and it had a sheared slide stop lever early on but has been completely reliable since. I bought a P40 a few years ago looking for a little less weight for carry, and it went back once, for a failure to return to battery. I'm pretty sure this turned out to be a bad load of plinking reloads, but anyway Kahr worked it over and it's been 100%. In both cases I put about 700 rounds through the guns, cleaning them carefully after each trip to the range, and keeping them probably a little more than 'properly' lubricated, before carrying them and considering them broken in.
I got my first Glock, a 23, a few months ago, and a 22 after that. Definitely a different kind of gun - much of the .40 ammo that my Kahr wouldn't eat, including the batch that sent the P40 back, was digested easily and without a hiccup by the Glocks. Cleaning consisted of separating the slide and frame, wiping the underside of the slide, and reassembling. For the past maybe 6 weeks, the Kahr's been in the safe, and the 23's been in an OWB.
Last week, I picked up the Kahr, and appreciated its size all over again. After weeks of carrying the G23, playing with it, practicing draws, etc., I'd forgotten how awesome it is to drop the P40 into its holster and completely forget about it. If the tradeoff for an ultra-slim .40 with tight tolerances is an extended break-in period and more-careful-than-usual ammo selection, I think that's fair. A few months with another gun convinced me of that pretty easily (much as I've become a Glock fan).
NewsShooter 12-30-2006, 11:17 I don't think saying Kahr isn't a precision company is no more a fair statement than all Glocks KB. Every company in all industries let one slip through once in a while. What's important is what they do about it.
TommyTomTom 12-30-2006, 11:58 Originally posted by NewsShooter
I don't think saying Kahr isn't a precision company is no more a fair statement than all Glocks KB. Every company in all industries let one slip through once in a while. What's important is what they do about it.
Indeed. It does happen to the best companies from time to time. In a different post, I explained how one of my Sig 2340s had a loose slide stop. It was so loose, it could be removed from the frame *easily* without lining up the witness marks on the slide and frame. It ticked me off!
In a different case, I had a Beretta Elite II where the slide stop lever caused a LONG scratch on the beautiful slide. Every time the slide moved -- the lever scratched it. The pistol functioned just fine, but it still made an ugly mark. I traded it for a G30 and thankfully -- I only lost a c-note on that one.
My opinion is obviously biased. AND they did make it right be me repairing the gun BUT NOT replacing the frame. They simply ground the rear of the slide to blend it with the frame. You can remove the grips and LOOK at the frame and see a significant ripple in the casting.
The gun works well and is accurate. BUT I don't trust it.
Ironically it always goes boom but the brass is thrown erratically. If you watch Kahr's (and I have whenever I see one) most throw the brass eratically. Kahr's also USED to be rated for 9mm +P+ but if you look closely they seem to rate according to an interview with Justin Moon the Owner and designer for 9mm +p only with frequent spring replacements.
The fact the NYC dropped them from the approved pistol list is also a sign that Kahrs are not what they were adverstised to be.
I LIKE them. I love the way they feel and I love the size of a PM9, but I am not going to buy anymore at this time. Honestly I would love a P9 or PM9 and might get one but I will be VERY particular in examining it. In my state you can't try before you buy getting a gun is kind of like a marriage. You buy it and add it to your permit then if you don't like it, you 'divorce' it and sell and in the process lose your shirt.
I think kahr is MORE hit and miss in quality than they need to be.
I truly regret NOT looking at S&W more seriously back in the 90's. They made some truly excellent DAO guns such as the 3953's and 3953TSWs. The 39xx S&W always go boom and just seem to work. I have never heard of one failing on the internet or at the local range.
S. Kelly 01-03-2007, 09:04 I love my K9, but have heard too many bad stories out of NYPD for me to carry the K9. It's also funny that Kahr dropped the "NYCPD Specs" on their advertising for the K9 last month in the gun mags.
Colorado4Wheel 01-03-2007, 09:26 Originally posted by Ulysses
My opinion is obviously biased. AND they did make it right be me repairing the gun BUT NOT replacing the frame. They simply ground the rear of the slide to blend it with the frame. You can remove the grips and LOOK at the frame and see a significant ripple in the casting.
The gun works well and is accurate. BUT I don't trust it.
Sorry about your gun. I can understand why you don't trust it. I would be pissed at Kahr myself if that happened to me. I shot a T9 (?) (9mm Full Size, whatever that is)the first time I tried a Kahr. Frankly, I didn't like it. Months latter I tried the TP9 and another P40. I think the Polymer guns shoot nicer and feel better, at least in my hand.
Originally posted by Ulysses
Ironically it always goes boom but the brass is thrown erratically. If you watch Kahr's (and I have whenever I see one) most throw the brass eratically.
So what difference does that make? I would say that my gun ejects cases about the same as every other autoloader I have seen.
Originally posted by Ulysses
Kahr's also USED to be rated for 9mm +P+ but if you look closely they seem to rate according to an interview with Justin Moon the Owner and designer for 9mm +p only with frequent spring replacements.
My new manual says +P. I would be dissappointed if I bought it as a +P+ gun and then found it was not good for that. Reality is that you should not be shooting that much +P+ in any small carry gun. If you do you need to expect to replace springs. People seem to forget that the Kahrs as a whole are small carry guns. Not military issue service guns.
Originally posted by Ulysses
The fact the NYC dropped them from the approved pistol list is also a sign that Kahrs are not what they were adverstised to be.
Nope, it's a fact Kahr had a issue at that time in its life. It's also a fact that people as a whole are idiots, can't properly care for a gun, and should be given idiot proof products as a result. My brother didn't clean his Glock for 2+ years of shooting, the front sight was knocked to the side as well. I begged him to final clean the thing. It was having FTF, etc. Give him a Kahr to daily conceal carry and you are just asking for trouble.
Originally posted by Ulysses
I truly regret NOT looking at S&W more seriously back in the 90's. They made some truly excellent DAO guns such as the 3953's and 3953TSWs. The 39xx S&W always go boom and just seem to work. I have never heard of one failing on the internet or at the local range.
But their current small carry guns suck. I shot a LadySmith last night. The poor instructor/owner of the gun could not hit a paper plate with the thing at 15ft. Trigger pull even with a mild trigger job was gritty. It took me about 15 rds to find the proper sight picture for that POS. Even then I could not get the DA pull to work that well. She tried my Kahr and the first pull put a bullet 1 inch above center of the plate. Big difference.
Prior to purchasing my PM9 with DLC and Night Sites, I compared and shot both the PM9 and the Glock 26. As the PM9 was lighter and smaller, I opted to buy it. Just one more mistake I've made in my lifetime. To date I have shot 600 rounds through it but I have to tell you that so far, I'm very unimpressed with the gun and with its engineering. Not a well-crafted weapon IMO.
For nearly $700, it came new loaded with manufacturing flash and dirt, was as rough as sandpaper to rack, is still way too finicky and remains a seriously high-maintenance gun compared to the all-forgiving, out-of-the-box any-ammo-eating Glock 26 that you can abuse, neglect and still shoot reliably. If it weren't for some of the helpful stuff here on this forum, I think my Kahr would have just died altogether at 300 rounds.
Kahr reminds me of Kel-Tec. IMO, they're two gun manufacturing companies who - either because of apathy or the Peter Principle - stop well short of making a truly remarkable gun and then take the low road, relying upon the kindness of the owners themselves to figure out what's wrong and how a workaround can be achieved. For $700, a new gun should come to the end user in far better condition.
I personally don't buy all of this extraordinary lubrication. No offense to those of you who spent the time doing the research et al. Your efforts are truly appreciated. The gun should work flawlessly after a short break-in period for that much money. Cleaning and lubing a gun should not be a life's ambition. It should be routine.
If Glock can do it for a lot less money, then suffice to say that IT CAN BE DONE FOR THAT MUCH MORE MONEY.
I'm now just one or two more range sessions and cleanings away from trading in the Kahr PM9 and buying the Glock 26.
"Excessive cleaning" is needed for the break-in period.
After that, it's keep it nice and lubed... nothing difficult or over-the-top here, folks.
If I was in a zombie fight, I can think of lots of guns I'd rather have than a Kahr. For every day CCW, I can't think of one... which is why I bought mine :supergrin:
jimmylozza 01-08-2007, 22:16 Originally posted by Cousin
Prior to purchasing my PM9 with DLC and Night Sites, I compared and shot both the PM9 and the Glock 26. As the PM9 was lighter and smaller, I opted to buy it. Just one more mistake I've made in my lifetime. To date I have shot 600 rounds through it but I have to tell you that so far, I'm very unimpressed with the gun and with its engineering. Not a well-crafted weapon IMO.
For nearly $700, it came new loaded with manufacturing flash and dirt, was as rough as sandpaper to rack, is still way too finicky and remains a seriously high-maintenance gun compared to the all-forgiving, out-of-the-box any-ammo-eating Glock 26 that you can abuse, neglect and still shoot reliably. If it weren't for some of the helpful stuff here on this forum, I think my Kahr would have just died altogether at 300 rounds.
Kahr reminds me of Kel-Tec. IMO, they're two gun manufacturing companies who - either because of apathy or the Peter Principle - stop well short of making a truly remarkable gun and then take the low road, relying upon the kindness of the owners themselves to figure out what's wrong and how a workaround can be achieved. For $700, a new gun should come to the end user in far better condition.
I personally don't buy all of this extraordinary lubrication. No offense to those of you who spent the time doing the research et al. Your efforts are truly appreciated. The gun should work flawlessly after a short break-in period for that much money. Cleaning and lubing a gun should not be a life's ambition. It should be routine.
If Glock can do it for a lot less money, then suffice to say that IT CAN BE DONE FOR THAT MUCH MORE MONEY.
I'm now just one or two more range sessions and cleanings away from trading in the Kahr PM9 and buying the Glock 26.
You took the words right out of my mouth. Well said.
I just sold my PM40 with night sights - a $700 turd. I'm sorry to be harsh. I gave Kel-Tec the benefit of the doubt because of the price. I finally got a reliable one in a second generation hard chrome, but for the price, the PMs should be shipped with better quality control.
My PM40 had the failure to return to battery problem, but that went away after break-in. What did not go away were the slide lock ups in the middle of shooting a magazine. Then came the failure to loads.
No amount of "smallness" is worth this kind of TLC for a self-defense firearm. I would not trust my life to a PM unless I could beat the attacker with it.
Colorado4Wheel 01-09-2007, 09:57 Originally posted by jimmylozza
No amount of "smallness" is worth this kind of TLC for a self-defense firearm. I would not trust my life to a PM unless I could beat the attacker with it.
I would just be careful not to lump KAHR as a whole in with the PM problems. From all indications the P9, TP9, CW guns are the most reliable guns they make. Very few reports of any real problems with those guns. It seems the PM of any type and some of the newer realises are the problem. New releases seem to go thru some initial pains but those get resolved it seems. I wonder if the idea of the PM is ill concieved for a mass produced gun. In other words can a company mass produce a small, light 9/40mm at a fair cost with total reliability. The Glock is much larger then the Kahr. In the end that only helps the Glock (never mind it a great gun in the larger sizes). Not saying every PM is junk, but it seems that despite (what I would hope) is Kahr best efforts the PM guns are spotty in out of the box reliability. Compare that to the P9 which seems to be very good in reliability and you have to wonder if downsizing the same basic design that far is a good idea.
windplex 01-09-2007, 10:46 Originally posted by craig_o
"Excessive cleaning" is needed for the break-in period.
After that, it's keep it nice and lubed... nothing difficult or over-the-top here, folks...snip...
It would be nice if the weapon were cleaned properly prior to leaving the factory since many new owners will not clean their weapons so thoroughly or do not know how to.
I do recall buy the two new cars I bought and immediately changing the oil and then doing so at about 1000 miles. And these were 80's cars -- modern manufacturing technologies.
I also recall the 60 and 70's vintage cars which really needed much more break in and truly benefited from extra oil changes during break in to flush the metal being worn off to fit parts. Same for a 70's vintage motorcycle -- actually saw he metal in the oil when changed it -- scary -- larger than expected.
So break in is reasonable. Will the average person possess the skills and knowledge and willingness to do it? Not a high percentage of owners IMO.
Wingsprint, Your post was one of the best posts I have read on GT. You understood and allowed for the difference in specifications between a tight specified weapon like a Kahr and a loosely specified weapon like a Glock both being high quality which means meeting their specifications when it is produced. Of course one is idiot proof due to the loose specifications the other requires careful break-in for best performance and gun's health.
One last picture. Think of any piece of dirt left in the slide are of a Kahr before use as a grain of silica or what some sand paper is made of. Now imagine this single granule of silica or "dirt" being forced back and forth between two pieces of metal that touch one another. Now you see how a single spec of "dirt" or metal shaving can make a life long groove or other damage to the Kahr. That spec acts as sand paper in between the metal parts and is cycled -- like hand sanding only with more pressure on the surfaces and more times -- 200 for break in. Yikes that is not pretty picture. Especially after wingsprint
Told us how much dirt came out after initial soak.
So if I win a Kahr or when I can afford one I will endeavor to repeat what wingsprint taught us for break in.
Thank you wingsprint for sharing your expertise as applied to a kahr and other weapons. I look forward to crossing paths on GT in the future! Windplex
I've mentioned it before but I think it would be in the best interest of Kahr to run a box of ammo through each PM gun, starting the break-in, and then doing final clean/inspection before releasing them.
I certainly wouldn't mind know they put 50 trouble free rounds through it before leaving the factory.
I think the PM issue does make people question the entire line even though as someone has said that the other guns in their line like the P and CW and such seem to be fine.
windplex 01-09-2007, 10:57 Originally posted by don527
I've mentioned it before but I think it would be in the best interest of Kahr to run a box of ammo through each PM gun, starting the break-in, and then doing final clean/inspection before releasing them.
I certainly wouldn't mind know they put 50 trouble free rounds through it before leaving the factory.
Agreed, but much like wingsprint's cleaning it would be labor intensive and add mucho cost. Would you pay another $100 retail for this? That is liekly their cost add-on.
This is why the car companies have us break in our engines and not them -- cost. HOwever they have improved thier specifications to the point that the engines last 100,000 miles even with no breakin. windplex
Hopefully it wouldn't add $100 to the cost.
The PMs are expensive already for polymer guns... as expensive as the MK guns and can't see the cost of making one to be as high as the MKs.
Using the car analogy also... I think these PMs are like SUVs... High profit for manufacturer because they should be cheaper to make then the metal counterparts but marked up as high as a Corvette because of demand.
If they want to improve their brand, they should take a hit in that profit per PM gun by adding the break-in clean and inspection. If they want, I'd take the charge us for the $9 for the WWB ammo they get at Walmart.
In the long run, they would still save money on paying to ship back and forth guns and the labor to tweak the guns when they could have done it during their break-in, and improve their reputation, improving their brand, improving future sales.
I know, I'm dreaming.
Originally posted by windplex
Agreed, but much like wingsprint's cleaning it would be labor intensive and add mucho cost. Would you pay another $100 retail for this? That is liekly their cost add-on.
This is why the car companies have us break in our engines and not them -- cost. HOwever they have improved thier specifications to the point that the engines last 100,000 miles even with no breakin. windplex
windplex 01-09-2007, 12:35 Originally posted by don527
Hopefully it wouldn't add $100 to the cost.
The PMs are expensive already for polymer guns... as expensive as the MK guns and can't see the cost of making one to be as high as the MKs.
Consider polymer guns and metal framed guns to be the same cost. Why? Polymers cost about the same per pound but material cost is no matter 16 ounces at $3 per pound is nothing.
However injection molding tooling is hundreds of thousands of dollars and that means each frame has dollars of amortized tooling associated (added) to its costs. Injection molding presses are much more expensive than the tooling.
On the other hand CNC computer numeric controlled milling machines are much less expensive and more importantly run by them selves once programmed. Injection molding requires highly specialize people to run it and one endeavors to run it 24/7 so that one does not have the delays and inefficiencies of reheating the machines to operating temps. CNC machines can be shut of and turned on like computers.
So do not believe polymer frames are inherently less costly than metal frames.
Originally posted by don527
Using the car analogy also... I think these PMs are like SUVs... High profit for manufacturer because they should be cheaper to make then the metal counterparts but marked up as high as a Corvette because of demand.
If they want to improve their brand, they should take a hit in that profit per PM gun by adding the break-in clean and inspection. If they want, I'd take the charge us for the $9 for the WWB ammo they get at Wal-Mart.
What ever the current profit Kahr makes they cannot reduce the profit to add new manufacturing steps -- they have share holders to report to. The ammunition is not an issue the labor is. Do they even have a range? Ranges are no small matter to set up these days due to air quality control and they would have to also follow ODHA rules for the workplace.
Figure their workers are making at least $20 per hour plus 33% for benefits makes $30 per hour. Anytime anyone in factory touches any part is costs money. Running 200 rounds through a weapon and doing the necessary cleaning will be at least $100 in cost. But lest say it is only $25 in cost. Manufacturers typically need to double the cost when sell to retailers or wholesalers to make between 5% to 8% net profit. So the cost now went up by $50 at wholesale. Then the retailer has to apply his mark-up and you are approaching $100 additional charges with less than one hour added labor and zero added cost of materials ( I left out the bullets in example). sure retailers don't make 50% gross margin on guns but for Kahrs I suspect they buy through a wholesaler so using a 50% margin or doubling the wholesale should be roughly accurate.
Originally posted by don527
In the long run, they would still save money on paying to ship back and forth guns and the labor to tweak the guns when they could have done it during their break-in, and improve their reputation, improving their brand, improving future sales.
Perhaps. If returns are high enough then it would make sense financially. It would benefit the brand.
Originally posted by don527
I know, I'm dreaming.
I suspect so. GM makes over $7,000 per suburban in profit and they can't afford to break in the engine. Plus the retailer makes a similar amount. Why do you believe a small company making $800 pistols can afford to pay for the break-in AND not pass along the cost to you the consumer?
Windplex
Ps. Keep in mind that companies do what is in thier best interest. If Kahr believed it would save money to break in the guns to reduce returns they would be doing so already without us suggesting it. Manufacturers have a very good idea of exactly where there costs lie and know how to reduce them. They make rational decisions regarding manufacturing.
Branding on the other hand is a black art and to make a manufacturing change to improve the brand image is non black and white decision. It is an investment in the brand and viewed as advertising would be viewed: what is the payback? Can we command a higher retail price by doing this? Can we take a larger share of market by doing this? Will we sell more Kahrs by doing this? Will we even be able to tell the impact of making this change to our manufacturing process? These are merely some of the questions that will be asked by management.
Prior to buying my PM9 and bringing it home, I read through all of the posts here at that time and took note of the mandatory field strip, major cleaning and lubing - according to the diagram posted. The night I did bring it home, I dilligently took it apart, cleaned it of the polymer flash, lubed it thoroughly with hi-tech, hi-temp, hi-performance semi-auto gun grease that cost me $10 a tube and took it to the range a few days later where I shot 190 rounds through it.
Sorry to say but after 600 rounds and thorough cleanings and lubings, it's simply not a smoothly-functioning gun. The first round of each mag will not engage no matter what I do and then suddenly, wham! the slide is able to move the round up and in. Tried six different self-defense rounds so far including the PowrBall with polymer ball insert. Same thing happens. And yes, I've cleaned and lubed the mags and the feed ramp. Truthfully, I'm concerened that if, God forbid, I ever did have to use it to defend myself, it would hang up at some point.
And, I believe that Kahr is content to take the low road and address the returns and complaints as they come in rather than look to improve upon the gun's actual design and/or components. They wouldn't be the first American manufacturer to play the percentages and weigh the cost of redesign and retooling against the cost of making the guns that get returned under warranty function right.
I'm going to give my PM9 400 more rounds at the range. Two trips ought to do it. If, at 1,000 rounds, this gun isn't "broken in", IMO it will never, ever, ever be broken in. And, into the gun store I will go to trade it in for a big loss and get a new Glock 26. Bigger yes, but a whole heck of a lot more reliable and that's all that truly matters when you need it.
Cousin, in your position I would talk to Kahr customer service (they are phenomenally helpful) and tell them the same story. If you didn't get a brand-new gun, I'd be shocked. And I'd do that before you go shooting again... the problems you describe aren't "quirky," they're symptomatic of a defective product.
That said, I can understand if you are FED UP with the company and just DONE. I wouldn't blame you at all. It's your decision, and you've got to pick the gun you want. But here's where I and a large number of other pro-Kahr folks are at: the VAST MAJORITY of the anti-Kahr posts we read are from people who:
a) didn't bother to read the obvious, out in the open information on the break-in
b) didn't bother to clean their gun...ever
c) got caught up in the barrel recall hype that definitely snowballed due to a continuance of the above
Now I don't doubt for a moment that Kahr has made a bad gun somewhere in the line (and that you clearly got one). I don't argue that you got screwed by receiving a faulty gun. And again, I certainly won't argue with whatever your CCW decision ultimately is based on your experience. But frankly, Kahr makes an excellent product and supports that product with a five year warranty and superior customer service in the event of problems like yours.
I've ran exactly 299 rounds through my PM9 with every single failure happening between shot 1 and 201. Yeah, ok, 98 rounds without failure, whoopity doo, right? I'm going to the range and throwing 200 more down the tube tomorrow and that's gonna be the moment of truth. I'm serious when I say it's going back to Kahr if all is not well. There isn't a gun out there (excluding revolvers) I wouldn't trust as my daily CCW before 500 rounds... this is mostly because I want familiarity with the weapon but also because it just makes sense to break in any new automatic to see if irregularities occur. And if they do, well, you'll see a new thread tomorrow that reads "Sent The Baby Back To Kahr" authored by me.
Two more slightly off-topic notes:
You could buy a Taurus pistol or revolver brand-new for $300-700 and have a pretty good chance of getting a defective product and total certainty of receiving zero to awful customer service, or you could buy a Kahr pistol for $500-800 with the possibility of a defective product and absolute certainty of getting it fixed with everything, including shipping, paid for by Kahr.
I'd absolutely support a factory break-in, and would even be willing to pay a mild premium for the service if it were optional (by mild I'm talking no more than $25, and you damn sure better clean it too :thumbsup: )
jimmylozza 01-09-2007, 20:51 Originally posted by Colorado4Wheel
I would just be careful not to lump KAHR as a whole in with the PM problems. From all indications the P9, TP9, CW guns are the most reliable guns they make. Very few reports of any real problems with those guns. It seems the PM of any type and some of the newer realises are the problem. New releases seem to go thru some initial pains but those get resolved it seems. I wonder if the idea of the PM is ill concieved for a mass produced gun. In other words can a company mass produce a small, light 9/40mm at a fair cost with total reliability. The Glock is much larger then the Kahr. In the end that only helps the Glock (never mind it a great gun in the larger sizes). Not saying every PM is junk, but it seems that despite (what I would hope) is Kahr best efforts the PM guns are spotty in out of the box reliability. Compare that to the P9 which seems to be very good in reliability and you have to wonder if downsizing the same basic design that far is a good idea.
Yes, I just said the PM line; however, I doubt I will give Kahr any more of my money for a while. ;)
There just wasn't much effort put into the quality control on my gun. There were plastic shavings still attached inside the rails that I had to scrape off during the initial cleaning. I also wasn't impressed with the design of the take-down lever and the spring there with it. I have a suspicion that the PM gun design itself is flawed and needs to be rethought. :sad:
There is probably a reason Glock has not made a firearm this small - they value their reputation more than the money a Glock micro gun would bring. Kudos to them.
And to those who say Kahr does not do the PM break-ins because of cost is only half right. They might also be afraid that too many of the guns will malfunction! I sure as s*** wish they had test fired mine!!!
I appreciate the encouragement and reinforcement, craig_o, but I doubt I would even extend to Kahr's customer service department the benefit of the doubt here.
I personally feel that Kahr makes an inferior product for actual sale to gun owners like myself. Now, the ones they ship off to the reviewers are probably perfect or as close to perfect as they can get it.
Anyway, what could they realistically do for me? Even if they gave me a brand new gun in exchange for mine, who's to say that I wouldn't get another one as bad or worse than the one I have? Plus, I first have to invest in 200 or so rounds of ammo plus my time just to see if it even accomplished anything.
I see the problems as being inherent in the design and manufacture of the gun itself. Otherwise, there wouldn't be near as many technical threads devoted to "massaging" and "working around" the PM9 as there are here.
400 more rounds and my PM9 is probably going to be someone else's headache. "Buy American" didn't seem to work for me in this case. Maybe "Buy Austrian" will. Who knows?
Thanks anyway for the advice. Again, I truly do appreciate it.
windplex 01-10-2007, 13:38 Cousin, you have a problem gun, I agree with the other fellow. You did everything right. It is broken in just has problems, IMO.
Regarding flash -- plastic that squeezes out from when the parts of the mold are pressed together (many many tons of pressure) and still plastic squeezes out and is stuck to frame.
I am surprised Kahr does not at the very least cut the flash off -- trim it as it comes out of the machine a common practice.
Or maintain the injection molding tooling. once again expensive to do. but their high quality metal parts don't match the average quality plastic parts with flash.
A current magazine centerfold features a Kahr and there is flash hanging off the frame! Why in the world did Kahr send out a gun for photography and testing with flash?! Why do they ship with flash?
My guess is Kahr subcontracts the frames from an inhjection molding company, a speciallist. The flash is known and they have the option to pay for tooling repairs or pay extra for someone to trim the flash. Kahr has chosen neither.
Goofy decision in my opinion.
Originally posted by windplex
....Regarding flash -- plastic that squeezes out from when the parts of the mold are pressed together (many many tons of pressure) and still plastic squeezes out and is stuck to frame.
I am surprised Kahr does not at the very least cut the flash off -- trim it as it comes out of the machine a common practice.....
....A current magazine centerfold features a Kahr and there is flash hanging off the frame! Why in the world did Kahr send out a gun for photography and testing with flash?! Why do they ship with flash?
Thank you! That's my point exactly! I paid just under $700 for the gun w/ 2 mags in sealed and unopened condition from the factory. It was specially ordered and I was there when it was opened up in the store. Less $130 or so for night sights and Tungsten DLC brings it down to a $569 gun which was the lowest price I could find at the time for the straight-up PM9. That's $69 more than a new Glock 26 fetches in most stores. For $569, the PM9 should come to the actual buyer and end user in very clean and well-lubed condition, ready to be fired and broken in with the first 200 rounds. Instead, the slide racked harsh and had a gritty feel and sound to it right out of the oily plastic bag. Again, I reiterate that I should not have to clean a brand new gun right from the factory of manufacturing debris.
IMO Kahr is betting - successfully I might add - that buyers are simply too anxious to get hold of one and so they'll opt to do the thorough cleaning, lubricating and detailing at home.
Me personally, I do not believe in being an enabler for other's mediocrity.
Cousin: I'm glad to hear you were receptive to what I had to say. When it comes to the very large number of technical threads on Kahrs, I think this is because so many satisfied Kahr owners want to HELP people having problems. Yes, three or five "definitive" threads COULD do it but that just isn't the nature of the internet community.
I have to add that I am not totally untroubled by Kahr's reputation despite the fact I think things have been blown FAR out of proportion for the reasons I stated above.
I bought my Kahr after I determined I could and would deal with the break-in and whatever was necessary on the remote chance of a "problem gun." If not for Kahr's outstanding customer service reputation, I would have been much more reluctant to go the PM route.
While I don't think all, most or even many Kahrs have problems, I have to acknowledge that a Kahr is not a Glock. I wouldn't reccomend a PM Kahr to the very casual gun buyer or the sort of person that wants to buy a gun and keep it on the top shelf of the closet for 7 years before even thinking about it again. I think Kahr could do a better job informing the potential buyers on what to expect to a degree (and certainly could give MUCH better instruction on proper cleaning and lubrication), but I also expect anybody willing to plunk down their hard-earned money on a product to DO THEIR RESEARCH in order to make an informed decision.
If you love or like your Kahr, God bless you. I'm happy for you. Have fun and enjoy target shooting with it. And may you never, ever have to use it for real. I, on the other hand, am not thrilled nor am I even satisfied with my Kahr. It leaves much to be desired for what it cost.
When I spend $569 on an item that I bought specifically to carry concealed every single day and that MY LIFE MAY ONE DAY DEPEND UPON, I firmly believe that the people who are manufacturing it should make a concerted effort to hand over a truly finished good in working condition, i.e. one that's ready-to-go and reliable. Shame on Kahr's Quality Control Department for not doing a much better job.
Leaving aside any quirkiness of the gun and the tough time loading the first round of each mag and the mandatory 200 rounds for a "break-in", Kahr is simply NOT, IMO, paying attention to the actual physical condition of the item or its reliability when it leaves their factory.
Blauvelt, NY is NOT a Third World or impoverished country where old and worn dies and tooling are recycled into operation for new factory startups. I know that they sell enough of their guns to enough users across a wide enough spectrum of experience and skill. My gun was purchased expressly for every day carry.
Would anyone want to buy a brand new car or truck that was not prepped or running poorly? Dirty windshields? Smudged tires? Fingerprints all over the body panels? Dirty carpets? Backfiring? Stalling? Obviously, the answer's "no".
Here's athought for the CEO of Kahr to consider:
Give the buyer like me the option to pay extra money upfront and get a "certified" fully broken-in, clean-as-a-whistle, thoroughly lubricated AND RELIABLE handgun. Think about what four boxes of new 9mm ammo plus range and target fees cost the new Kahr owner. The time spent taking it apart, cleaning it and lubing it. Charge $100 bucks more to those willing to pay it "on order" for a well-functioning gun.
I would have paid it since the loss I'll probably take on the trade-in of it down the road will be around $250. Plus, the cost of all of the ammo I bought and shot till now. Five boxes of Wally World white box plus almost five boxes of assorted Federal, Speer and Cor-Bon PowrBall JHP's didn't come cheap. So, this little lesson about "Buy American" will cost me close to $400 when all is said and done. Is it possible that there are a few Americans who can't carry Gaston Glock's jock strap when it comes to making a clean and reliably functioning handgun out-of-the-box? Or are they just ambivalent to what the competition is doing? I truly don't know the answer for sure but I'd be inclined to guess it's the later.
Just my opinion and like a heart or a brain, everyone has one. And, I'll let the matter go with this post as I don't want to monopolize this thread or just keep ragging on Kahr. Thanks to all!
windplex 01-11-2007, 00:48 Originally posted by Cousin
Thank you! That's my point exactly! I paid just under $700 for the gun w/ 2 mags in sealed and unopened condition from the factory. It was specially ordered and I was there when it was opened up in the store. Less $130 or so for night sights and Tungsten DLC brings it down to a $569 gun which was the lowest price I could find at the time for the straight-up PM9. That's $69 more than a new Glock 26 fetches in most stores. For $569, the PM9 should come to the actual buyer and end user in very clean and well-lubed condition, ready to be fired and broken in with the first 200 rounds. Instead, the slide racked harsh and had a gritty feel and sound to it right out of the oily plastic bag. Again, I reiterate that I should not have to clean a brand new gun right from the factory of manufacturing debris.
IMO Kahr is betting - successfully I might add - that buyers are simply too anxious to get hold of one and so they'll opt to do the thorough cleaning, lubricating and detailing at home.
Me personally, I do not believe in being an enabler for other's mediocrity.
Kahr should fix the flash. IMO
Kahr cannot afford to break in each weapon and clean and lube before sending to each ownber or retailer.The time involved (labor) bwould be similar to breaking in a car engine and GM does not break in its Suburban engines and it makes $7000 per suburban and the dealers make another $7000. The Kahr provides merely hundreds of dollars profit total for all to split. No room for extra work.
Colorado4Wheel 01-11-2007, 08:11 Originally posted by Cousin
That's $69 more than a new Glock 26 fetches in most stores. For $569, the PM9 should come to the actual buyer and end user in very clean and well-lubed condition, ready to be fired and broken in with the first 200 rounds.
Sorry, not to be rude. But that is not realistic at all.
Basically, "I paid more then a similiar Glock so you should
clean, lube and fire 200rds thru the gun for me"
Go buy a Glock if you begrudge the extra money for a Kahr. No one forced you to by the Kahr. No manufacture of massed produced guns does that type of thing. They all come in heavy oil or grease for the most part. They all need to be cleaned for proper functioning from the start. That just the way it is.
My gun came no different then any other gun I have bought. Better then some that I have seen actually. Complaining about Kahr due to the above is silly and makes you look lazy for not even wanting to clean your new gun. Makes me wonder if you have the mentality to even properly care for the thing. I will say it again. PM's are very small carry guns. They require a user that knows how to properly care for a gun. If you want a gun that is going to require less care then a Kahr buy the bigger Glock (and pay less for it). If you want a really small full power ccw and are willing to go thru the measures needed to insure that the gun is reliable try the Kahr. Input on the forum says you are taking a little bit of a risk trying to buy this small of a full caliber gun from Kahr (no one else even trys to make one this small). Full size (for Kahr) don't seem to have these issues to nearly as great a extent. Also, keep in mind that on the internet this is really the only Kahr forum (if you even can call it that) on the internet. If I buy a Smith and Wesson I have tons of places to go complain about that gun. If I have a Kahr, this section of the Glock Talk and firearmforums is about it. So every unhappy Kahr owner who knows how to google "Kahr Forums" comes here eventually to complain.
Originally posted by Colorado4Wheel
Sorry, not to be rude. But that is not realistic at all.
Basically, "I paid more then a similiar Glock so you should
clean, lube and fire 200rds thru the gun for me"
Go buy a Glock if you begrudge the extra money for a Kahr. No one forced you to by the Kahr. No manufacture of massed produced guns does that type of thing. They all come in heavy oil or grease for the most part. They all need to be cleaned for proper functioning from the start. That just the way it is.
My gun came no different then any other gun I have bought. Better then some that I have seen actually. Complaining about Kahr due to the above is silly and makes you look lazy for not even wanting to clean your new gun. Makes me wonder if you have the mentality to even properly care for the thing. I will say it again. PM's are very small carry guns. They require a user that knows how to properly care for a gun. If you want a gun that is going to require less care then a Kahr buy the bigger Glock (and pay less for it). If you want a really small full power ccw and are willing to go thru the measures needed to insure that the gun is reliable try the Kahr. Input on the forum says you are taking a little bit of a risk trying to buy this small of a full caliber gun from Kahr (no one else even trys to make one this small). Full size (for Kahr) don't seem to have these issues to nearly as great a extent. Also, keep in mind that on the internet this is really the only Kahr forum (if you even can call it that) on the internet. If I buy a Smith and Wesson I have tons of places to go complain about that gun. If I have a Kahr, this section of the Glock Talk and firearmforums is about it. So every unhappy Kahr owner who knows how to google "Kahr Forums" comes here eventually to complain.
Colorado4wheel, as this thread is titled "Opinions on Kahr problems", it seems reasonable - at least to me - that a poster can voice his or her opinions and do so without being criticized. I ask that you please go back and read all of my posts in this thread. Then, if you would, please re-read the one you specifically quoted above. I believe you will see that your assumptions about me might have been made in haste.
Lazy I'm not but I do believe in holding people - those who accept money from me in return for goods or services - up to a fair standard of performance and NOT enabling them to skate along on mediocrity at my expense.
As for mentality, well, I DO expect an item - specifically one that is deliberately designed for covert or concealed carry AND self-defense - to function properly and reliably without a whole lot of intervention and TLC. The burden should not be on me to "make it right" after-the-fact. Normal break-in aside, why would any clear-thinking rational gunowner expect or settle for anything less than a fully-functioning and clean CCW-class weapon out-of-the-box? Self-defeating to do so - no?
Lastly, I came to this forum WELL BEFORE I went out and purchased my Kahr PM9. If you go back and read my posts in this thread, you'll see that I stated that as well.
I knew upfront about the initial takedown, clean and lube BEFORE firing it as well as the 200 round break-in period. As well as the need to buy and use high quality ammuntion, grease, cleaners, etc. Yep, I DID read the Kahr Owner's Manual, too. Again, you have to read all of my posts to capture the essence of my dissatisfaction.
Have a nice day! Enjoy your Kahr. Glad you're a satisfied user.
Colorado4Wheel 01-11-2007, 10:33 Originally posted by Cousin
Colorado4wheel, as this thread is titled "Opinions on Kahr problems", it seems reasonable - at least to me - that a poster can voice his or her opinions and do so without being criticized. I ask that you please go back and read all of my posts in this thread. Then, if you would, please re-read the one you specifically quoted above. I believe you will see that your assumptions about me might have been made in haste.
Lazy I'm not but I do believe in holding people - those who accept money from me in return for goods or services - up to a fair standard of performance and NOT enabling them to skate along on mediocrity at my expense.
As for mentality, well, I DO expect an item - specifically one that is deliberately designed for covert or concealed carry AND self-defense - to function properly and reliably without a whole lot of intervention and TLC. The burden should not be on me to "make it right" after-the-fact. Normal break-in aside, why would any clear-thinking rational gunowner expect or settle for anything less than a fully-functioning and clean CCW-class weapon out-of-the-box? Self-defeating to do so - no?
Lastly, I came to this forum WELL BEFORE I went out and purchased my Kahr PM9. If you go back and read my posts in this thread, you'll see that I stated that as well.
I knew upfront about the initial takedown, clean and lube BEFORE firing it as well as the 200 round break-in period. As well as the need to buy and use high quality ammuntion, grease, cleaners, etc. Yep, I DID read the Kahr Owner's Manual, too. Again, you have to read all of my posts to capture the essence of my dissatisfaction.
Have a nice day! Enjoy your Kahr. Glad you're a satisfied user.
I agree 100%. It's just my opinion. My opionion is complaining about a gun not being clean when you buy it is silly (it should not have a ton of flashing etc). Complaining about them not putting 200rds thru the thing is silly. No other manufacture of mass produced guns does this. It's better for you as the consumer to put 200rds thru it yourself anyway before you ever rely on the thing anyway. It should be reliable after the first 200rds (thats what they designed it to do, you knew that before you bought it). Thats about it.
Your other post may be great but the above statements are the ones I take issue with.
windplex 01-11-2007, 11:16 Originally posted by Colorado4Wheel
I agree 100%. It's just my opinion. My opinion is complaining about a gun not being clean when you buy it is silly (it should not have a ton of flashing etc). Complaining about them not putting 200rds thru the thing is silly. No other manufacture of mass produced guns does this. It's better for you as the consumer to put 200rds thru it yourself anyway before you ever rely on the thing anyway. It should be reliable after the first 200rds (that’s what they designed it to do, you knew that before you bought it). That’s about it.
Your other post may be great but the above statements are the ones I take issue with.
Steve, You make a good point that each owner can break in the gun according to his or her preference.
It also reminds me of the 1960's and 1970s when some celebrities paid others to wear blue jeans and break them in for them to get them nice and used and worn looking: Cool looking. It took time back then. we did not have stone washing nor any jeans that looked used out of the box, so to speak.
So, you buy the ammo and I will shoot your Kahr 200 times for you. I do not care to clean it but I would like to do offer my services to do the break in shooting for you;)
Windplex
Ps. I would also break in any select fire weapons, other hand guns and long guns;)
I am a "giver", it's just my way;)
update:
went to the range yesterday, shot 206 rounds bringing the lifetime total to 505.
200 monarch FMJ 115
6 Speer Gold Dot 124
Zero failures!
The last things I have to say about the topics we've been discussing:
1. Kahr is definitely losing business by not breaking in the guns in the factory. I think they're crazy not to do it.
2. There's absolutely no reason to begrudge somebody who doesn't like Kahr due to personal experience or simply doesn't care for the product itself. At the end of the day, the individual either says "this gun is worthwhile to me" or "I will not/will never again have anything to do with this gun or manufacturer." It's not a right or wrong situation.
El fin.
Colorado4Wheel 01-11-2007, 12:10 Originally posted by craig_o
2. There's absolutely no reason to begrudge somebody who doesn't like Kahr due to personal experience or simply doesn't care for the product itself. At the end of the day, the individual either says "this gun is worthwhile to me" or "I will not/will never again have anything to do with this gun or manufacturer." It's not a right or wrong situation.
El fin.
If you are implying that I am doing that, let me clarify. I don't begrudge anyone there opinion. I may feel it's silly, but thats their choice. Some of you guys are putting out statements that are about a "business model" by saying "Kahr should do X'. When you own a multi million dollar business you can probably make a better judgement about what that company should do. Until then, it's real easy to throw stones. I say, buy or don't buy a Kahr. It's your choice. No one forced you to do it. Read the instructions, follow the recommendations. If the gun breaks, or does not perform as it should after the breakin period, complain all you want. Till then don't pollute the world with invalid complaints about the product. You bought it, you knew what you were getting into, *****ing about it when you knew what you should do per the instructions is just poor form.
Edit:
Said another way. Until your Kahr fails to deliver what the manufacture says it should do what do you have to complain about?
It's just annoying to read all these post complaining about Kahr in regards to things Kahr never said it would do. Such as:
1) Deliver a clean gun. Guns come in shipping oil thats normal. Clean it yourself. If you bought another brand of gun you should clean it as well. Big deal.
2) Kahr should put 200rds thru it. They never said they would, No one ever does. Why should Kahr? They expressly state you should do it. Every resonalbe person who carrys a gun for self defense puts more then that thru the gun before they carry the thing. It's simply crazy not to. If your gun is a toy for collection then set it in a box and enjoy it. Otherwise, get you butt to the range and put 400rds thru the thing when you buy it. Simple.
3) Cost too much. Well, don't buy it then. Buy something else.
4) If you have a problem with the gun after 200rds. For crying out loud, don't post about it here with out at least calling KAHR. Internet advice is often bad advice. Reread your owners manual (and make sure you understand it), then call Kahr. Ask informed questions to the manufacture. I have, they treated me very well.
windplex 01-11-2007, 14:02 Originally posted by craig_o
update:
...snip...
1. Kahr is definitely losing business by not breaking in the guns in the factory. I think they're crazy not to do it...snip...
Pretend Kahr is YOUR Company.
What if breaking in each Kahr prior to shipping it and doing the required cleaning makes it unprofitable; would you still say Kahr is "crazy not to break in their guns" (prior to shipping them out of factory)?
Or look at it this way if it costs Kahr $100 to break in a gun and so they must add $200 to the wholesale cost to maintain their profit margin. Then the retail goes up by about $285 or more.
Does that sound like a smart business decision? To produce Kahrs that cost over $1000 at retail?
I think Kahr would be crazy to be the only production gun company breaking in their guns.
It would be nice if they did basic cleaning and trimming of flash though. And yes that will add cost and increase retail price as well.
Ain't no free lunch.
And if you suggest they break in the gun at no profit margin then consider working 3 months a year for zero pay starting right now. Would you like to do that? Neither would Kahr. It is that simple.
Thanks for all of the input. Enjoy shooting your PM9's, folks. I'm off to check out the Rohrbaugh, Taurus PT111Ti and a couple of others.:wavey:
jimmylozza 01-11-2007, 22:31 The PM is is a rich man's Kel-Tec. A really cool gun with huge firepower in a very small package, quite often delivered with moderate to serious problems from the factory, yet serviced gladly by the manufacturer.
The problem for me was I assumed that because of the price, the PM40 would be more reliable out of the box than my Kel-Tec. In fact, just the opposite was true.
Perhaps Kahr has not had the time yet to create a second generation PM series that addresses the jams and slide lockup issues. My second generation P3-AT hard chrome (with latest extractor) was flawless out of the box. I hope Kahr follows their example, but yet doesn't take as long to deliver a polished product.
I hope that Kahr will revise the PM product and address these issues at the design level. No amount of break-in or cleaning will fix or avoid the slide lock-up problem I was having (slide would lock back in the middle of firing a magazine). Kahr should fix these issues in the gun design or the manufacturing process, instead of relying on the gun to make a return trip back for service.
jimmylozza 01-11-2007, 22:40 Originally posted by Cousin
Thanks for all of the input. Enjoy shooting your PM9's, folks. I'm off to check out the Rohrbaugh, Taurus PT111Ti and a couple of others.:wavey:
Don't forget to take a look at some of the airweight revolvers. There really is nothing better for reliable personal protection.
Originally posted by jimmylozza
Don't forget to take a look at some of the airweight revolvers. There really is nothing better for reliable personal protection.
Thanks jimmylozza!
I just bought and now carry my new S&W Airweight fulltime. Funny thing about revolvers, even though you only get 5 shots in this instance.
You load them with whatever brand of ammo you have. You point and pull the trigger. They go bang. You dump out the spent casings. You load them up - again - with whatever brand of ammo you have. You point and pull the trigger - again. They go bang - again. You dump out the spent casings........ Hmmmm......;)
windplex 01-12-2007, 11:12 Originally posted by jimmylozza
Don't forget to take a look at some of the air weight revolvers. There really is nothing better for reliable personal protection.
Revolvers are generally more reliable than semi-autos. They are not perfectly reliable as some believe.
I had the pleasure of shooting a 3 week old Ruger 44magunm that rained very thin shavings of lead on the shooter in the next booth. I was being rained on before I shot it.
It was misaligned from the factory and not an inexpensive or poor quality weapon.
I also shot an old 22lr and it spit lead and smoke out both sides between the wheel and barrel. We decided it was then relegated to a viewing or display piece from now on.
The timing issue of the 44magnum can be fixed.
My point is that revolvers are a great choice for self defense. One can hand a double action revolver to another a person who has no prior knowledge of fire arms and they can fire it in a time of need. Not all semi's are like that (glocks are).
However buy a good quality revolver. Be wary of used ones. And off brands. Revolvers are not perfect machines as some believe.
I love the 14 ounce or 12 ounce revolvers available now; they often make the difference between carrying all the time or carrying only some of the time -- say the owners. And that alone is great!
Windplex
Colorado4Wheel 01-12-2007, 11:36 But, for the size and carry options of the small revolver you might as well get a P9 or TP9. You end up with a thinner gun, longer barrel, better ballistics, nicer trigger, more capacity. It's sad to see all the people flock to the PM line when really a simple, reliable, slighly larger P9 is a far better choice. I went with the TP9 as it's only 1/2 inch longer, same width, grip etc. Unless you pocket carry the P9 is probably a better hip gun. And no one complains about the P9. YMMV, etc.etc. Don't get me wrong, I have a S+W686 as well for my nightstand and camping.
windplex 01-12-2007, 12:04 Having read this thread and other Kahr threads, I get the impression most issues are due to break in, and or cleaning prior to break in, in conjunction with the tight specifications of the Kahr.
Most owners like and are proud of the tight specs of the Kahr as compared to the loose specs of the Glock. Specs are specs. One designs specifications for an end result and builds consistently to the specs and that is quality. Tight specs has benefits and draw backs.
One draw back to tight specs is lower tolerance to a dirty weapon than a weapon with "looser specs". We not only see this in the Glock versus Kahr but also the AR versus the AK in the desert conditions.
I do wonder what the level of failures Kahrs would experience if every Kahr were cleaned and broken in as Wingsprint broke in his?
Would failures to return to battery go to zero or would the tight specs still cause some to fail due to frequency of cleaning or just due to the specifications variances? Same for other failure types; would they disappear or would some still exist due to specifications variances.
Every specification has a +/- variance in the manufacturing process. Of course the quality manufacturer takes this into consideration and makes sure that whether on the large side or on the small side all the stacked variances will not cause failure. I believe Kahr has made sure of this; I sure hope they did.
Imagine if every part was at the larger end of the specifications: All are, let's say, +0.0005" so the slide is larger the frame is larger the fit is much tighter (of course other parts would impact this "tightness" as well). So some weapons will have the "perfect (manufacturing) storm" of getting all parts that have been manufactured on the large end of the manufacturing spectrum. This happens with some statistical reliability. Perhaps this is part of the issue -- hopefully Kahr has already calculated the "stacked tolerances" and taken this into consideration -- I believe Kahr has it is pretty basic fo good manufacturing practices.
So why do some fail to go into battery???? This is a good question. And why do some fail to feed a particular round from the magazine?
Perhaps cleaning and perfect break in would solve. Perhaps Kahr needs to open the specs a little. Don't know. Onnly Kahr, or a determined engineer with a whole lot of Kahrs on hand, can figure this out.
Colorado4Wheel 01-12-2007, 12:37 Originally posted by windplex
Most owners like and are proud of the tight specs of the Kahr as compared to the loose specs of the Glock. Specs are specs. One designs specifications for an end result and builds consistently to the specs and that is quality. Tight specs has benefits and draw backs.
One draw back to tight specs is lower tolerance to a dirty weapon than a weapon with "looser specs". We not only see this in the Glock versus Kahr but also the AR versus the AK in the desert conditions.
I make a point of not cleaning my gun, and shooting a round as carried (I conceal carry all the time). I never have any issues. My TP9 is not so tight in the slide/frame area to cause me any concern. The Barrel does lock up tighter then others guns I looked at (just going from memory). I honestly think the PM guns are simply a flawed design. All the other Kahrs just don't have the issues the PM's do. Hence I would not lump Kahrs in with the PM issues. I do think they are tight enough to require a decent break in. I did nothing special with my gun to break it in. No fancy lube. Just a quick wipe down, clean barrel, lube rails. Shoot 199 flawless rounds. My first round did not return to battery. Sence then it's been 100% except for a defective case on a reload I let slip by (1200+rds). I now follow the recommendations in the sticky for lubing everything. It's really a pretty basic maintence process.
windplex 01-12-2007, 13:00 Originally posted by Colorado4Wheel
I make a point of not cleaning my gun, and shooting a round as carried (I conceal carry all the time). I never have any issues. My TP9 is not so tight in the slide/frame area to cause me any concern. The Barrel does lock up tighter then others guns I looked at (just going from memory). I honestly think the PM guns are simply a flawed design. All the other Kahrs just don't have the issues the PM's do. Hence I would not lump Kahrs in with the PM issues. I do think they are tight enough to require a decent break in. I did nothing special with my gun to break it in. No fancy lube. Just a quick wipe down, clean barrel, lube rails. Shoot 199 flawless rounds. My first round did not return to battery. Since then it's been 100% except for a defective case on a reload I let slip by (1200+rds). I now follow the recommendations in the sticky for lubing everything. It's really a pretty basic maintence process.
Good to hear the issues are only with the PM Kahrs! I hope to own a Kahr one day.
One issue for a concealed carry or pocket weapon is lint. May sound like a non-issue but can be in revolvers and semi-autos. Tighter specs means less tolerance for things that come between the parts.
The AKs run with sand in them. the ARs do not. Different designs and different specifications. The AK is far from accurate at 100 yards; the AR is very accurate at 100 yards and much farther so long as the operator does his part.
They were designed with very different goals in mind. And so their specs are very different. It makes one no better than the other just different. One merely chooses the weapon, or any product, with the design purpose desired. Accuracy --> AR; Unfaltering reliability even if not cared for properly in third world conditions --> AK.
Does the PM use a polymer frame? If yes is it the first use of a polymer frame? Migrating from an all metal weapon to a mixed polymer and metal weapon is more difficult than a 100% metal manufacturer would imagine before getting into the project. Plastics act very differently when processing than metals. Plastics can change size from the size of the product in the tool that forms it and the final, cooled part. And the size changes according to the color used and to the amount of colorant used. So many factors come into plastics that it is far more difficult than machining metal. It has a black magic element to getting it right (on specifications) and keeping it on specs. during the entire course of production. Changes in ambient climate changes how the process works and the output. Most injection molding factories are not climate controlled (temperature and humidity) so there are near constant variations during production runs over the course of a shift.
I just hope Kahr fixes whatever it is so these threads can end and people can be happy with their weapons and rely on them.
Colorado4Wheel 01-12-2007, 14:06 If it is a Kahr and it starts with a P it is a polymer gun. Some people don't like an auto for pocket carry. The small PM/K size guns are the only Kahrs really suited for pocket carry. I have never done that type of carry so I have no idea about it.
I love revolvers and I LOVE .357 magnum.
Cousin: For a CCW revolver, I'd go for the Ruger SP101 3 1/16" or just about any 3" Smith K frame. The only reason I don't own one or the other is because revolvers are, generally speaking, considerably more difficult to conceal for a 5' 9" 173 lbs 32" waist fella like myself.
Along the Airweight lines, a .38 is great but I like the .357 option... check out a S&W 386 PD for a lightweight, 7 shot .357 with a 2.5" barrel!
Colorado4Wheel 01-12-2007, 19:21 Originally posted by craig_o
Cousin: For a CCW revolver, I'd go for the Ruger SP101 3 1/16" or just about any 3" Smith K frame.
I was going to get a S+W Model 60 in 3 inch. Is that the same as a K frame. I obviously got the TP9 but the Model 60 sure tempted me.
jimmylozza 01-12-2007, 22:51 I had a hammerless SP101 .357. Really nice stainless gun. It was just too heavy for me on the waist. If you can carry the weight, though, go for it.
I keep a Ruger SuperRedhawk Alaskan as my vehicle/by-the-bed gun. It's the 454 version, but I keep it loaded with CorBon's DPX in 45 Colt. There's nothing like having a 225gr bullet that does 1200fps with 720 ft/lbs of energy; but, this big stainless gun makes them feel like a .22. The bonus is getting to shoot off a cylinder of 454s at the range and call it a day! But I digress...
The one reason I really had liked the PM was the thin factor. Even though I love revolvers, even the S&W 442 (.38 Airweight in black, hammerless) I had for a while would cramp up by back muscles on the carry side. I know it sounds weird, but the PM was way easier to carry all day than the 442. I'm really bummed it didn't work out.
wingsprint 01-13-2007, 08:26 Wow, this thread really has grown!
Both my CW and PM have over 600 rounds through them and have been 100% reliable with not one jamb, or feeding issue. Both guns have swallowed up WWB, +P Gold Dots, Talons, reloads, and Rangers.
There are two areas I see that could be causing some of the issues folks are having:
1. Improper lubrication of the outside of the barrel. I am using a light coat of Mobil 1 on the barrel and a light film of a Teflon grease on any surface in the slide that contacts the barrel.
2. Failure to properly lubricate the Guide rod and Spring. Take a close look at how close the two are to each other. Compare how close this tolerance is to other pistols. You will see what I am referring to. Lots of friction! I am using Mobil 1 on the Spring and Teflon grease on the Guide Rod.
I did notice another thing about both the CW and PM, you must follow Kahrs direction to chamber a round. You can not "ride the slide". Call this a design flaw if you want, but don't be surprised if you have a problem if you fail to follow Kahr's direction. It's your fault, not the gun. It's kind of like putting Diesel in you gas power car and being pissed off at the manufacture that the engine wont run.
:eyebrow:
Originally posted by wingsprint
I did notice another thing about both the CW and PM, you must follow Kahrs direction to chamber a round. You can not "ride the slide". Call this a design flaw if you want, but don't be surprised if you have a problem if you fail to follow Kahr's direction. It's your fault, not the gun. It's kind of like putting Diesel in you gas power car and being pissed off at the manufacture that the engine wont run.
:eyebrow:
Just to be sure, I went up to Kahr's website and double-checked to see if any new owner's manual information was available.
FACT: According to their latest PDF on-line manual, Kahr recommends that you insert the mag, pull the slide back and secure it open with the slide stop lever, and then press the slide stop lever to release the slide and chamber the round. They caution that any other method may cause the round to fail to chamber and the slide to not fully close/stay open.
OPINION: Well, that sounds nice in print but just try doing that under stress while you're trying to chamber the first round because: 1) you carry your Kahr with the pipe empty as some folks prefer to do and/or 2) you are in a life-threatening "situation" and need to change mags. TAP-RACK-BANG just went out the window. I sure hope the bad guy gives me the extra two seconds I'm going to need to play around with the slide stop lever. FWIW, the Glock 26 and a host of other 9mm's DO NOT function this way.
OPINION: Sorry, and absolutely no offense to anyone here, but I think a lot of loyalty to Kahr has been misplaced, to say the least.
FACT: Speaking only for myself, I will not let the $700 I spent very unwisely on my PM9 influence my better judgement or possibly get me killed.
Colorado4Wheel 01-13-2007, 10:36 Originally posted by Cousin
Just to be sure, I went up to Kahr's website and double-checked to see if any new owner's manual information was available.
FACT: According to their latest PDF on-line manual, Kahr recommends that you insert the mag, pull the slide back and secure it open with the slide stop lever, and then press the slide stop lever to release the slide and chamber the round. They caution that any other method may cause the round to fail to chamber and the slide to not fully close/stay open.
OPINION: Well, that sounds nice in print but just try doing that under stress while you're trying to chamber the first round because: 1) you carry your Kahr with the pipe empty as some folks prefer to do and/or 2) you are in a life-threatening "situation" and need to change mags. TAP-RACK-BANG just went out the window. I sure hope the bad guy gives me the extra two seconds I'm going to need to play around with the slide stop lever. FWIW, the Glock 26 and a host of other 9mm's DO NOT function this way.
OPINION: Sorry, and absolutely no offense to anyone here, but I think a lot of loyalty to Kahr has been misplaced, to say the least.
FACT: Speaking only for myself, I will not let the $700 I spent very unwisely on my PM9 influence my better judgement or possibly get me killed.
I am 100% convinced they print it that way to get people to not do the sliderack while the gun is breaking in. Mine was horrible with the slide rack method of loading a round when new. Now it's fine. Just shoot the heck out of it. Mine really started feeling normal after about 700rds. After 1000rds it's just not an issue at all. I do it all the time at the range and during shooting competitions. I agree, a gun should function like you describe. I don't carry a spare magazine so the need for a slide rack is very remote if I ever need my gun while not at a range.
Thanks Colorado4Wheel for the encouragement. As I stated earlier in this thread, I'll make my decision at 1,000 rounds. As of today, I'm up to 725 and it stills hangs up on the first round of each mag, every time without fail. And, the feed ramp is a smooth as a baby's bottom and lubricated.
So, I'll know for sure soon enough. If, in fact, it goes away at 1,000 rounds, I'll be a much happier camper about the PM9. But, I felt that I had to go out, spend another $400 and buy an Airweight to pocket carry in the meantime. Cheap I am not and right now, I have very little confidence in carrying my PM9.
If I were a betting man, I'd say that the PM9 is being redesigned and will be relaunched with a suffix - OR- eventually displaced altogether with a brand new model by Kahr a la Kel-Tec and the PF9 over the P11.
Have a great football weekend, folks!
windplex 01-13-2007, 15:18 America is unique. We are the single most litigious country. Many companies will not sell their products here even though our market dwarfs Europe or any other single market today due to the litigation problem. Litigation is a problem.
Much of what is written on products and on the literature for products and related to products is directly a result of the USAS litigious market and consumer.
Manufacturers must employ lawyers to read and rewrite copy and all verbiage on products and instructions. We must write ridiculous warnings such as do not use this hair dryer while taking a shower or bath - not joke.
So yes that instruction might well have to do with break in and not with a broken in weapon.
Or it might have to do with user error. Imagine a user racking a slide since the pipe is empty and failing to rack it fully and so the user causes a failure to feed and gets shot by the bad guy. The dead user's spouse now sues Kahr for their spouse’s mistake not the weapon's mistake. And so goes American liability law. Needs real reform. Needs common sense to reenter it.
If I had a kahr I would keep one in the pipe. Takes a pretty good pull to pull that double action trigger. But don't take my suggestion I am certified non-expert and have absolutely no expertise or reason for anyone to follow my advice. Anyone who follows my advice, which I did not give, or follows what I do is a fool and does so at his or her own risk. By reading this the reader agrees that the writer is neither giving nor offering advice regarding using a weapon.
That's right we live in America where attorneys get rich suing those who are not at fault.
Yes, I too, kept one in the pipe at all times. As the TAP-RACK-BANG "feature" possibly won't work for maybe 275 more rounds in my PM9, I couldn't see tempting fate any further. I decided to not carry the Kahr PM9 any further, at least until the magical 1,000 rounds were shot at the range and I made my decision.
I have since bought an Airweight .38 Spl +P. Almost as small, a wee bit lighter loaded, $300 less than the PM9 but much more reliable AT THIS POINT IN TIME FOR ME.
There's absolutely no loss of stopping power between the two rounds and 5 readily-available rapid-fire shots versus 7 almost-always-available rounds gives the revolver the clearcut edge for now.
Strider47 01-19-2007, 14:49 I just bought a new PM9 with the DLC coating yesterday. I've read all the pro's and con's and realize they need a little extra attention when new. I didn't have too much flashing in mine and everything seems to line up properly. I'll post a range report this weekend after I get a chance to get her out.
FWIW, I own a Kel-Tec P32 (gen. 1) that would continuously fail to feed the last round in the magazine. I knew going into the deal that the P32 was finciky, so I performed a fluff and buff and all is well. I've yet to have another issue with that gun.
Two things:
Cousin? What happened?
MODERATORS! Can we please sticky this, or at the very least SOME of it?
Thanks for asking, craig_o
I put another 150 rounds through my PM9 last week. 100 Wally World Winchester and 50 MagTech. Total to date is now 875 rounds.
And I deliberately chambered the first round of every mag with the slide release as per Kahr's instructions. Truthfully, it's a bit hard holding onto the weapon with one hand, keeping the index finger alongside the frame below the slide for safety and using the thumb to release the slide lever. The gun literally wants to fly right out of my hand. But, the rounds did chamber.
The gun's accuracy is now highly suspect however and I can't explain it.
My PM9 is shooting pretty low and off to the left. So much so that I had to take the front sight and align it to where its edge was almost in front of and on top of the right rear sight's leading edge. FWIW, these are factory-installed night sights.
I thought I had perhaps reassembled the gun incorrectly when I cleaned it right before this last range visit but that was not the case. And, from what I can tell, the sights are properly aligned on the top of the slide. No wobble, no movement.
Then, I wondered if too much lubricant was the culprit. I'll grant you that some grease splattered a little bit from underneath the slide but the barrel itself was not greasy. I wiped it off with a paper towel and that was that.
The barrel is pristine and the various components all seem to be in excellent physical condition, i.e. no gouges, scrapes, nicks, wear spots, etc. I checked the gun barrel to see if it was excessively hot during the session but it did not appear to be. I load both mags, then shoot the 13 rounds, leaving the slide open while I reload the mags again and wait a minute or two before shooting them. I don't "pound" my guns at the range.
After the session and just like all the others, I stripped it down, cleaned it very thoroughly and lubricated it very thoroughly, including the feed ramp and the mags. Again, the barrel and component parts are in excellent condition - or at least they appear to be to my eyes.
So, with 125 more rounds to go before I hit the magical 1,000 rounds, I'll have to be patient a bit longer. One more trip to the range should do it, one way or the other.
dougader 01-25-2007, 20:07 After reading through this thread I can honestly say I'll never buy a Kahr firearm. It sound sa lot like the old Detonics Pocket 9. Great concept, but mediocre result. I guess it comes down to this: Kahr owners must like cleaning and puttering around with guns. I like shooting mine. I said about the same thing to an old co-worker who rode a Harley motorcycle: "You must like working on bikes. I like riding mine."
It was asked earlier, "What if Kahr was your company?" Well, if Kahr was my company, I'd darn well make sure every gun that went out the door worked well enough for my mom/dad/sister/brother/etc. to carry, and carry with confidence. Bottom line: Kahr does not instill confidence and i won't buy one.
I owned a SA 1911 in 9x23 Winchester. Awesome round. Ballistically, it was a .357 mag in a semi-auto. I ran 124 grain golddots or xtp's to 1523 fps with no problem. But I couldn't make it run reliably, so I never carried for CCW and eventually sold it.
G17, 19, 20, GP100, Wilson CQB... now there are some guns that speak volumes in confidence.
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