What was JMB trying to "improve upon" with the HP design??

[Wayne02]

I've often heard that JMB's High Power design was done in part to improve upon the 1911 platform. If this is so, I have the following questions for my enlightenment.

1. What design aspects of the 1911 was he trying to improve, exactly?

2. Why did he choose to design the HP around the 9mm vs the .45 if his primary motivation was to "improve upon the 1911"?

3. Is it possible that he was not so much primarily motivated to design the HP for purposes of improving on the 1911 platform, but rather to start fresh with a size of firearm more suited to the 9mm round? i.e. a bit smaller, maybe a bit more ergonomically friendly (according to some).

4. The mag interlock "safety" on the HP is much maligned, was this interlock part of the original JMB HP design or was it added later?

Thank you.

[epsylum]

I can't answer much, but I do know JMB believed in the light/faster theory when it comes to ammo. The .45 was mandated by the US military as it wanted to reproduce the ballistics of the .45 Colt but in a smaller, automatic package. There was even a Luger in .45ACP that went up against the 1911 for the military contract and the few remaining ones are some of the most valuable guns ever made.

The odd thing with the HP vs. 1911 thing for me is that I always hear the original 1911 design had no thumb safety, only the grip safety and the thumb safety was mandated by the military. However, the HP has the thumb safety and no grip safety.

Then again the HP was not a 100% JMB design.

[jonathon]

The HP was not designed as an improvement on the 1911. It was designed around features wanted by the French government.

[nrmcolt]

Originally posted by Wayne02
I've often heard that JMB's High Power design was done in part to improve upon the 1911 platform. If this is so, I have the following questions for my enlightenment.

1. What design aspects of the 1911 was he trying to improve, exactly?

2. Why did he choose to design the HP around the 9mm vs the .45 if his primary motivation was to "improve upon the 1911"?

3. Is it possible that he was not so much primarily motivated to design the HP for purposes of improving on the 1911 platform, but rather to start fresh with a size of firearm more suited to the 9mm round? i.e. a bit smaller, maybe a bit more ergonomically friendly (according to some).

4. The mag interlock "safety" on the HP is much maligned, was this interlock part of the original JMB HP design or was it added later?

Thank you.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/
:thumbsup:

[1991]

The BHP was designed to meet the requirements of a French military pistol program. 9mm, high capacity, and a magazine disconnect were all part of those requirements.

Browning was not trying to "improve on the 1911" in the design of the BHP as much as he was trying to work around his own genius. He had sold the 1911 patents to Colt and had to come up with solutions different enough to get around his own patents.

[silversport]

1991...very well written response...must be tough having to improve upon your own genius when you have sold/lost the rights to your own design...P35 is a nice pistol and so is the 1911/A1...
Bill

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by 1991
The BHP was designed to meet the requirements of a French military pistol program. 9mm, high capacity, and a magazine disconnect were all part of those requirements.

Browning was not trying to "improve on the 1911" in the design of the BHP as much as he was trying to work around his own genius. He had sold the 1911 patents to Colt and had to come up with solutions different enough to get around his own patents. +1. It's also worthy of note that Brownings original concept for the P35 was a striker fired design. He wasnt so crazy about the idea of a staggered column mag in a pistol. Browning passed away long before the P35 design was finalized, and Diudonne Saive took over the program. The final result was more Saive's brainchild, than Brownings. Saive was FN's chief designer for many years and also created the famed FN FAL battle rifle. It's also a bit ironic that the french passed on the P35 in favor of the Petter designed 1935A, chambering the .32 french long cartridge, which itself was later modified(beefed up) for the 9mm cartridge and became known as the SIG 210.

[Jim Watson]

Agree with 1991. In addition to responding to a French RFP to FN, Mr Browning was having to design around his own patents assigned to Colt for the 1911. There was no mysterious artistic urge to make a better gun, it was a case of good buisness practice.

D. Saive gets and deserves a lot of credit for turning the Grand Rendement the French did not buy into the Grand Puissance that just about everybody bought. But one thing he did in the process was to wait for those Colt-Browning 1911 patents to expire and recycle some of Mr Browning's ideas. Things like the barrel bushing (Yes, a G.P. has a barrel bushing, just not a removable one in production models.), the slide stop tying the upper to the lower, and a thumb safety on the left rear of the receiver.

[Wayne02]

Originally posted by 1991
as much as he was trying to work around his own genius.
Ahh yes, I can sympathise. I run into this problem as well... :supergrin: :)

[CAcop]

Remember the only true advance with the HP was the locking mechanism. With the 1911 it was the swinging link. With the HP there are legs on the barrel that do it. Smith metal framed autos are nearly identical copies of the locking design. Sig, Glock, HK, et al. are slightly modified in terms of the locking of the slide to the barrel.

The HP has proably had the most influence on firearms design of any gun currently made. How many guns out there besides the 1911 use the swinging link?

Also he did permanently affixed the bushing to the slide. I can only think of pre 3G Smiths that had removable bushings without a gunsmith and tools.

[CAcop]

Here is JMB's patent. You can see the basic shape and some of the concepts.http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=01618510&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25 252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D1,618,510.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F1,618,510%2526RS %3DPN%2F1,618,510&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

[1991]

Excellent info. Thanks, CAcop!

[tous]

Originally posted by CAcop


The HP has proably had the most influence on firearms design of any gun currently made. How many guns out there besides the 1911 use the swinging link?



Rugers. :wavey: :supergrin:

[happyguy]

Originally posted by Wayne02
Re: What was JMB trying to "improve upon" with the HP design??

I don't know but it sure wasn't the trigger!:tongueout:

Happy New Year,
Happyguy :)

[10mm4ever]

Originally posted by tous
Rugers. :wavey: :supergrin: That's true. I had forgotten that the older "P" series utilized the swinging link. The newer generation does not, however.