Steel case ammo?

[PAPACHUCK]

So I read that a lot of ya'll don't/won't use steel case ammo in your AR's, my question is why not? Does it wear out internal parts faster, does it leave residue from lacquer coating, does it not perform reliably?

It sure would be nice to go plinking for almost half the cost. But I don't want to hurt my new baby.

[Critter]

I hear this a lot from the Wolf bashers, but have yet to see any ammo related problems directly linked to the ammo on the whole. The newer Wolf is poly coated and maybe it isn't as uniform in the loading as higher priced ammo, but after many years of running matches I've seen the stuff work with few exceptions.

One fellow shot some of it with his mini-14, iron sights, 100 yards. Had trouble hitting a 4" plate with it, but that was most likely because he sighted in with a hotter round. I think that is the worst I have seen.

My next purchase will most likely be some of the stuff for plinking based soley on the price, but as with any lower quality ammo, I wouldn't use it for a class or for self defense, just the same as I wouldn't rely on WWB.

(Oh, and to add, it's not a baby, it's a rifle. The only one's that don't break are the one's that sit in the safe. It's never a matter of 'if it will break', but rather 'when it will break.' Don't diminish your fun with it by worrying about the small stuff, they are cheap and easy to fix.)

[c4igrant]

The steel case can be hard on your extractor. This is a cheap part so if it breaks I wouldn't worry about it.


C4

[sburr23]

I only shoot Wolf ammo, I've never had any problems.

[JKG]

Brass is softer than steel.

We'd need to run a controlled test to really see if shooting strictly steel cased lacquer coated ammo is worse than brass rounds. Since there's lacquer on the steel cases it seems that the chance of steel on steel contact in the chamber is eliminated, but like C4 said, brass would seem easier on the extractor.

I can shoot brass cased ammo as cheaply as Wolf, so I do. If that situation changes I'll start thinking about Wolf.

[RMTactical]

My guns eat it, although I don't like to shoot stuff that I wouldn't ever want to use for self defense.

It seems to me that guns of lesser quality struggle with it more than those that are of better quality.

[Critter]

Originally posted by JKG
Brass is softer than steel.

We'd need to run a controlled test to really see if shooting strictly steel cased lacquer coated ammo is worse than brass rounds. Since there's lacquer on the steel cases it seems that the chance of steel on steel contact in the chamber is eliminated, but like C4 said, brass would seem easier on the extractor.

I can shoot brass cased ammo as cheaply as Wolf, so I do. If that situation changes I'll start thinking about Wolf.

The new Wolf doesn't have the laquer anymore, it's polymer and doesn't build up like the old stuff did.

Where are you getting the brass cased stuff as cheap as the Wolf?

[Critter]

Originally posted by c4igrant
The steel case can be hard on your extractor. This is a cheap part so if it breaks I wouldn't worry about it.


C4

Agreed and agreed. A quality extractor will go through at least a couiple of thousand rounds of the Wolf before it shows any real signs of wear, and you will save a lot more money that the extractor costs. I honestly never considered Wolf for my personal use until recently. I'm still struggling with jumping into reloading the 5.56 'production style' or just succombing to the com-block ammo just out of principal alone. As busy as I am, and unless someone has a better more economical idea, I'm probably going to order several cases of it before it tops a couple hundred a thousand.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by JKG
Brass is softer than steel.

We'd need to run a controlled test to really see if shooting strictly steel cased lacquer coated ammo is worse than brass rounds. Since there's lacquer on the steel cases it seems that the chance of steel on steel contact in the chamber is eliminated, but like C4 said, brass would seem easier on the extractor.

I can shoot brass cased ammo as cheaply as Wolf, so I do. If that situation changes I'll start thinking about Wolf.


Wolf makes two different types of steel cased ammo. Ones with Lacquer and ones without. I am not a fan of the Lacquer and would not use it (if I had the choice). What I have seen is a guy that shoots a lot of the Lacquer coated ammo and then switches to brass ammo. The build up of lacquer in the chamber seem to stick to the brass and cause problems.



C4

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by Critter
Agreed and agreed. A quality extractor will go through at least a couiple of thousand rounds of the Wolf before it shows any real signs of wear, and you will save a lot more money that the extractor costs. I honestly never considered Wolf for my personal use until recently. I'm still struggling with jumping into reloading the 5.56 'production style' or just succombing to the com-block ammo just out of principal alone. As busy as I am, and unless someone has a better more economical idea, I'm probably going to order several cases of it before it tops a couple hundred a thousand.


The thing I can see as a problem with Wolf is tha some instructors and training facilitites do not allow shooters to use it.




C4

[sburr23]

I shot maybe 20K of Wolf ammo, 95% of it lacquer. I've never had any problems with lacquer build up, or worn extractors. The lacquer is hard to scrap off of the casing, and I heard of a guy that put a torch to the lacquer to try to melt it, it didn't melt until the casing was almost red hot. The steel used for the case is a very mild steel, and the extractor is hardened, so the steel case won't wear the extractor.

Mil-spec chambered guns should eat wolf ammo all day long.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by sburr23
I shot maybe 20K of Wolf ammo, 95% of it lacquer. I've never had any problems with lacquer build up, or worn extractors. The lacquer is hard to scrap off of the casing, and I heard of a guy that put a torch to the lacquer to try to melt it, it didn't melt until the casing was almost red hot. The steel used for the case is a very mild steel, and the extractor is hardened, so the steel case won't wear the extractor.

Mil-spec chambered guns should eat wolf ammo all day long.

I have been doing a little research on bolt extractors and it seems that not everyone uses the same quality. Some are heat treated and some are not. Some are made out of tool steel and some are not. So this is why we see some extractors stand up to it and others do not.


C4

[Kaliburz]

Originally posted by c4igrant
I have been doing a little research on bolt extractors and it seems that not everyone uses the same quality. Some are heat treated and some are not. Some are made out of tool steel and some are not. So this is why we see some extractors stand up to it and others do not.


C4


I would imagine that this applies to just about everything.... including our beloved AR's.

[Glockdude1]

Originally posted by sburr23
I only shoot Wolf ammo, I've never had any problems.

+1 My Bushy eats it up like candy..........

:thumbsup:

[Critter]

Originally posted by c4igrant
The thing I can see as a problem with Wolf is tha some instructors and training facilitites do not allow shooters to use it.




C4

Like I had said earlier, I wouldn;t reccomend it for a training class, more for the inconsistancy of the ammo than anything else, but that's just me. I don't know why instructors would not allow it though unless they are selling the brass after the classes and use that to supplement their income.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by Critter
Like I had said earlier, I wouldn;t reccomend it for a training class, more for the inconsistancy of the ammo than anything else, but that's just me. I don't know why instructors would not allow it though unless they are selling the brass after the classes and use that to supplement their income.


Well, couple of them tell me that they don't believe the round is reliable.



C4

[Razoreye]

I use it.

Advantages - slightly cheaper
Disadvantages - Inaccurate, dirty, can cause sticking, possibly failure prone?

Few observations: "talk" of failures due to ammo for various reasons in classes by peers and the instructors alike. That is second hand so take it for what it is worth.

It is inaccurate compared to other ammo I've used.

It is dirtier than other ammo used (as in smellier and slightly more residue.)

The biggest problem is the steel. Not because it causes wear, nay, I seriously doubt the steel is hard enough to affect the steel/chrome on the rifle. Nor do I believe the coating has any affect. I believe the steel doesn't expand like brass does, allowing the chamber to gather more carbon/dirt. This doesn't affect the steel but affects brass if you switch to it midway through. I can verify that shooting steel cased then switching to brass while it is hot will cause stickage. I've had some stickage from shooting steel and letting one sit in the chamber for a few minutes while still hot and then having trouble extracting. I have not been able to duplicate this one successfully but I can duplicate the steel to brass one fairly well.

[c4igrant]

Originally posted by Razoreye
I use it.

Advantages - slightly cheaper
Disadvantages - Inaccurate, dirty, can cause sticking, possibly failure prone?

Few observations: "talk" of failures due to ammo for various reasons in classes by peers and the instructors alike. That is second hand so take it for what it is worth.

It is inaccurate compared to other ammo I've used.

It is dirtier than other ammo used (as in smellier and slightly more residue.)

The biggest problem is the steel. Not because it causes wear, nay, I seriously doubt the steel is hard enough to affect the steel/chrome on the rifle. Nor do I believe the coating has any affect. I believe the steel doesn't expand like brass does, allowing the chamber to gather more carbon/dirt. This doesn't affect the steel but affects brass if you switch to it midway through. I can verify that shooting steel cased then switching to brass while it is hot will cause stickage. I've had some stickage from shooting steel and letting one sit in the chamber for a few minutes while still hot and then having trouble extracting. I have not been able to duplicate this one successfully but I can duplicate the steel to brass one fairly well.

One other possible issue with Wolf ammo is that it is under pressured. If your running a carbine buffer, you would never see it. If you run and H2 or H3 you might see some problems. The simple fix would to just go back to the carbine buffer.



C4

[Critter]

Under the pressure of firing a round the steel cases expand like they are supposed to, they just do not retract like a brass case would. If the rounds are used in sub-par barrels or tightly chambered barrels there can be a problem from time to time. I always reccomend a NATO 5.56 chamber, properly sized, and leave the "boutique" chamberings to the safe queens or reloaders shooting bolt guns that can take advantage of the differences instead of being handicapped by them.

[Critter]

Originally posted by c4igrant
One other possible issue with Wolf ammo is that it is under pressured. If your running a carbine buffer, you would never see it. If you run and H2 or H3 you might see some problems. The simple fix would to just go back to the carbine buffer.



C4

There is less consistancy in the ammo and is the reason I wouldn't use it where it counts, but if your looking for 4MOA ammo for practice under 50 yards, I'm sure it would be okay. Once again, I had never considered it until the prices got stupid.

[Skintop911]

Originally posted by sburr23
I shot maybe 20K of Wolf ammo, 95% of it lacquer. I've never had any problems with lacquer build up, or worn extractors. The lacquer is hard to scrap off of the casing, and I heard of a guy that put a torch to the lacquer to try to melt it, it didn't melt until the casing was almost red hot.

SAAMI and match chambers, and bottomfeeders of wide variability, show the lacquer problems earlier than the NATO chambers, but NATOs do eventually as well. Or at least, they did in a (genuine) M4 carbine that ran it almost exclusively.

The steel used for the case is a very mild steel, and the extractor is hardened, so the steel case won't wear the extractor.

It depends on the manufacturer and the steel they use. I've seen Wolf destroy them. In better units, only accelerated wear.

[EX CATM]

SInce wolf is no Polymer coated I don't see how the case could damage the extractor, unless your extractor was cutting through the coating. Polymer is softer than steel. The only aditional stress I could see it causing would be with a case that was stuck to the point it would cause case head seperation with a brass cartridge, while the steel would hold up, putting more stress on the extractor. However in the AR series in semi autos case head seperatin is a rare occurance. Steel cased ammo was used during WWII with no ill effects I am aware of.
With that said I am not a fan of wolf, to inaccurate and to dirty.

[Skintop911]

Originally posted by Critter
I don't know why instructors would not allow it though unless they are selling the brass after the classes and use that to supplement their income.

I don't sell brass, and Wolf is verboten in any gun I'm accountable or responsible for.

I found several thousand rounds of it this week for $79.90/500rds, and passed without a second thought.

[JKG]

Originally posted by Critter
Where are you getting the brass cased stuff as cheap as the Wolf?

I bought 2000 rounds of 62 gr. steel core Spanish NATO for $300 at a local gun store. I've seen at arfdotcom that its not the most favored variety of steel core, but I've shot a lot of it, and so have others. We are trying to get more and the price is actually better than Wolf, locally at least. Absolutely zero problems with this ammo.

I'm also shooting the Adcom 62gr so that I don't shoot up all my Spanish. It costs less than 50 cents more per box than the Wolf. Not sure if I'd rather have my money go to Russia or the UAE, but that's a different topic. Its not as good as the Spanish, but I can get it at the local sporting goods store.

[RENEA]

I used to shoot Wolf .223 when I was in the service on weekends (poor GI pay) but now I buy brass case fodder.

[Critter]

Originally posted by Skintop911
I don't sell brass, and Wolf is verboten in any gun I'm accountable or responsible for.

I found several thousand rounds of it this week for $79.90/500rds, and passed without a second thought.

I used to feel that way too until I saw the stuff in action. It is dirty and innacurate, but it still shoots minute of man and will run in a good rifle. Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate the stuff. but if it's what stands between someone going out and shooting or just talking about it, I'd rather see them shooting.

As far as the steel cases go, they will wear out an extractor quicker than brass cases, and before I hear again how the cases aren't as hard as the extractor, or the polymer is soft, keep in mind, extractors were weariong out when we were only shooting the brass cases. The cases do not have to be harder than the extractor to cause wear, but the harder the cases are, the more accelerated the wear will be.

As a side note, TAP is selling steel cased ammo now to PD's for training purposed as the cost is less than brass cased ammo. It's not just Wolf anymore in the classes, although it would be for the GP.

[Critter]

Originally posted by JKG
I bought 2000 rounds of 62 gr. steel core Spanish NATO for $300 at a local gun store. I've seen at arfdotcom that its not the most favored variety of steel core, but I've shot a lot of it, and so have others. We are trying to get more and the price is actually better than Wolf, locally at least. Absolutely zero problems with this ammo.

I'm also shooting the Adcom 62gr so that I don't shoot up all my Spanish. It costs less than 50 cents more per box than the Wolf. Not sure if I'd rather have my money go to Russia or the UAE, but that's a different topic. Its not as good as the Spanish, but I can get it at the local sporting goods store.

Lost me on the steel core. We aren't supposed to shoot it at my range and I am trying to keep an eye out for it as I am planning on getting several steel targets for the rifles this year. One of the neighboring clubs has a few rifle steels, so I'm lust SOL in that dept. I'd hate to buy 3-5K worth of steel and have it ruined, or worse yet, screw up and ruin it myself.

[Razoreye]

Originally posted by Critter
As far as the steel cases go, they will wear out an extractor quicker than brass cases, and before I hear again how the cases aren't as hard as the extractor, or the polymer is soft, keep in mind, extractors were weariong out when we were only shooting the brass cases. The cases do not have to be harder than the extractor to cause wear, but the harder the cases are, the more accelerated the wear will be. I'd say that is a more accurate hypothesis. Extractors will always fail independent of ammo, it just may be accelerated with steel casings.

[RWBlue]

Originally posted by Skintop911
I don't sell brass, and Wolf is verboten in any gun I'm accountable or responsible for.


If you are talking about your guns, or guns you are the armorer for, its your call, and you put out the money for better ammo.

But based on your comments I assume you are public trainer, and it is your students money that has to be spent on better ammo.

So why are you insisting on them spending more money on ammo which may or may not be any better than wolf steel?

[RWBlue]

Originally posted by Razoreye
I can verify that shooting steel cased then switching to brass while it is hot will cause stickage. I've had some stickage from shooting steel and letting one sit in the chamber for a few minutes while still hot and then having trouble extracting. I have not been able to duplicate this one successfully but I can duplicate the steel to brass one fairly well.

I think I have seen this, on a cold day with a hot barrel. I only shot 3 rounds of wolf, but this was after 20-30rnds of shooting.

[RWBlue]

Originally posted by c4igrant
Well, couple of them tell me that they don't believe the round is reliable.

C4

I would think that would be a reason to run it durring some practice sessions. If it fails, you run UNEXPECTED failure drills.

For accuracy is needed, I would expect a better ammo would be needed. (Then again, I shot my first clover leaf in the new AR with Priv Partizan, the other day so...?)

[emt1581]

Originally posted by RWBlue
If you are talking about your guns, or guns you are the armorer for, its your call, and you put out the money for better ammo.

But based on your comments I assume you are public trainer, and it is your students money that has to be spent on better ammo.

So why are you insisting on them spending more money on ammo which may or may not be any better than wolf steel?

I'd LOVE to see an answer to this question...

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[Skintop911]

Originally posted by emt1581
I'd LOVE to see an answer to this question...

Okay.

Variables that impact safety, continuity, and overall quality of the event should be controlled whenever possible. Everybody has their tolerances.

As a student in classes, I hate having "that guy" on the end with all the "good-as", "good-enough", etc gear slowing class down. I want my instructor running the line and conveying knowledge, not un-****ing someone's gun or gear down the line.

When I have a say-so, I either provide stuff to make sure that doesn't happen, or require it for the benefit of all. No apologies.

Yup, it may or may not be better. It may or may not be just fine. I don't want to bother with maybes.

[Critter]

Originally posted by Skintop911
Okay.

Variables that impact safety, continuity, and overall quality of the event should be controlled whenever possible. Everybody has their tolerances.

As a student in classes, I hate having "that guy" on the end with all the "good-as", "good-enough", etc gear slowing class down. I want my instructor running the line and conveying knowledge, not un-****ing someone's gun or gear down the line.

When I have a say-so, I either provide stuff to make sure that doesn't happen, or require it for the benefit of all. No apologies.

Yup, it may or may not be better. It may or may not be just fine. I don't want to bother with maybes.

Very well said. While it is straying from the subject a little, but along the same lines, any equipment you bring to a training class should be top notch. Your personal practice time, do what you will, but when you go and pay for training, and more importantly when you are with a group of people who are paying for training, don't bring the second string goods. The line I always love to Tee off on is, "Yeah, I know these mags are bad, but I bring them to training classes to practice my malfunction drills.":burn:

[Blitzer]

After reading an article and then the ammo manufacture's web site I did learn that steel case ammo was desinged to work in guns where the chambers had a specific surface finish. The finsh was not polished shiny and not too rough either. It had to be special as the steel case doesn't expand as much as brass and would slip out of the chamber quicker than the brass case when extracted.

And the extractors would get beat up, chiped, by the harder material of a steel case's rim. :thumbsup: ;)

[tjpet]

As long as your AR's got a chrome plated chamber shoot as much steel-cased ammo as you please. You'll have no problem getting rounds in or empties out.

Quit worrying about extractor wear (which I've never seen proven with hard facts) and use the gun. Good lord, it was designed as a weapon of war and can be run hard.

Wolf ammo is plenty accurate for all but the most serious target shooting. Great for range blasting or clipping jackrabbits out to a couple hundred yards (when I do my part!)

[B.Reid]

I have shot Wolf ammo in a couple of calibers, the stuff works. It is not the best but good for the price. I have been told that it will blow up my gun this is BS. Ranges don't like it because they sell your used brass to reloaders and don't want to have to sort it out. :thumbsup:

[thejrod]

I think the biggest problem with Wolf is ignorance.

It has some real drawbacks - accuracy, cleanliness, and some inconsistancy in loads. That's about it. If you can deal with those drawbacks, then why not save some money.

When it was $110/case, I ate it up. Great for plinking, blasting, etc. Now that it's up to $180/case, well I found M193 for $175 - the choice is pretty clear. If Wolf drops back down, or if milspec continues to climb, I'll go back to Wolf.

I'll always have milpec on hand for serious use, and I won't sight-in using Wolf, but I WILL save money whenever I can, because it just allows me to further feed this disease.

[AggieAK]

I've heard from some who, worried about excess junk build up due to the "steel doesn't expand like brass does" idea, that they will run a 1/3 or 1/4 round mixture with their favorite almost as cheap brass stuff (the guy i heard from mixed it with guat) this way those occasional brass rounds kinda cleaned the chamber as it were... does this make sense, or is he talking from his posterior orifice?

[Sikhed]

theJrod has all the points spot-on.:thumbsup:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/sikhed/lacquer.jpg
Quite a while ago, I posted this on a different forum. It was to prove that Wolf (lacquered) didn't turn into gum when shot threw a hot chamber. As you can see, the lacquer just turned to ash, not glue when heated with the torch. Wiped it with a paper towell, no sticky, just ash. (If you look carfully, you can see that the car ramp's paint melted, and turned gooey, but not the lacquer)

[AggieAK]

That all makes sense and all, but what i think the issue is that steel doesn't bend like brass, and no one can argue that it does leave more stuff (whether it's carbon or anything else) in the chamber,(i admit i haven't used it in my AR, but i used it in my AK before i sold it, and only used brass a few times, but it would jam up if i used more than 2 mags of wolf first... now, in my AR would mixing it with brass be better, worse, or about the same?

[emt1581]

Originally posted by AggieAK
That all makes sense and all, but what i think the issue is that steel doesn't bend like brass, and no one can argue that it does leave more stuff (whether it's carbon or anything else) in the chamber,(i admit i haven't used it in my AR, but i used it in my AK before i sold it, and only used brass a few times, but it would jam up if i used more than 2 mags of wolf first... now, in my AR would mixing it with brass be better, worse, or about the same?

If wolf jammed up your ak then it was an issue with your gun or mags. AK's LOVE Wolf ammo!

-Emt1581

[AggieAK]

OHH!!! MY AK would run on WOLF all day long... don't get me wrong... where the problem came in is when i would try to run brass after running lots of wolf, the brass would get all junked up and not extract... thus, for my AR, my question of running 1 brass per every 4 steel wolf to keep things playing nicely in there, as opposed to a whole mag of wolf, then a mag of brass that might get the first few stuck... does that make sense?

[emt1581]

Originally posted by AggieAK
OHH!!! MY AK would run on WOLF all day long... don't get me wrong... where the problem came in is when i would try to run brass after running lots of wolf, the brass would get all junked up and not extract... thus, for my AR, my question of running 1 brass per every 4 steel wolf to keep things playing nicely in there, as opposed to a whole mag of wolf, then a mag of brass that might get the first few stuck... does that make sense?

This is going to sound really ignorant and it might even be wrong, but I think where you went wrong was that you used brass cased in your AK. For some reason, AK's seem to looooove the cheap crap their countries make for them.

It seems the same with AR's...they like ammo native to their homelands, which happens to be the much more expensive brass cased.

-Emt1581

[Gibbles]

I have never had a problem with Wolf in my AK or AR. My AK did have a problem once but it had to do with it needing a new extractor. Both rifles run the stuff all day long. Even my AR pistol eats the stuff all day long. I have even taken a few jack rabbits with wolf. stuff seems to work fine, now if the prices would go back down to what they should be. :sad: