Which load for home protection

[Ian]

Now I have the shotgun, what should I load it with?
I have heard that 00 buck is most effective, but overpenetrative.
What about #4 buck?

[stmcelroy]

I've chose Federal Tactical Low Recoil 00 Buck since it works great in my shotgun(11-87 Police).

Sure over penetration is a concern, but I figure that i had better use the best rounds possible in my self defense guns.

All of the ammo in my handguns will penetrate interior walls, that's just a fact of life.

I know that some people load there HD shotguns with bird shot for this reason, but I really doubt it's effectiveness when called upon for self defense.

Steve

[Ian]

I agree, but #4 buckshot seems a good alternative
27 6mm pellets travelling at 1325

[WellArmedSheep]

I have Hornady TAP 00 Buckshot in my Remington 870 right now. I have some Federal Low Recoil 00 Buckshot ordered and am looking forward to running a few rounds of each through it to see which performs better.

[WellArmedSheep]

Originally posted by stmcelroy
I know that some people load there HD shotguns with bird shot for this reason, but I really doubt it's effectiveness when called upon for self defense.

+1

I know of too many people that have been on the wrong end of a load of bird shot to recommend it for anything other than small game and clays.

[zzzarkt]

#4 buck in the tube, 00 buck on the side saddle and slugs in the stock if things get worse instead of better.

I use the Federal "Tactical" #4 buck load. It patterns about 3"-4" @ 10 yards. That hits hard enough for me.

[Ian]

I think that there is a misunderstanding here.
There is #4 buckshot and there is #4 birdshot.
Big difference

[Packin' Heat]

00 buck.

go to the box-o-truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/)

[MrMurphy]

Having seen several people get hit terminally or not with shotguns....

00 Buck or better (0 or 000 for example) or slugs.


No.4 Buck is decent, El Paso PD carried that for many years but had some failures to stop after solid center hits, and then switched.


Have seen several guys hit by birdshot, one i arrived less than 90 seconds after the shooting.

The guy who was hit could easily have fought back had he been armed.

The only guaranteed stop with birdshot was at point blank range (Suicides) mostly.


Standard Foster slugs really do a job on people too.

Any shotgun load, bird or buck will penetrate lots. Kneel and aim up if possible (go into ceiling instead of other rooms) from behind cover. Birdshot sails right through drywall and sheetrock, though not people.

I've seen one suicide where the head was basically gone and enough energy remained to shred the ceiling somewhat.

[Ian]

Thanks for the replies.
Kneel and aim up if possible (go into ceiling instead of other rooms)
Good advice, but I am hoping that there is a decent floor on the apartment above.
I might go with the idea of 1 or 2 rounds firstly of #4 Buck, followed by 00.

[Ian]

Packin' Heat
You have got to love this guy!
I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.

[MrMurphy]

Would you rather shoot up into someone else's concrete floor (your ceiling) or into drywall?

[JKG]

I have #4 buckshot in my 500, with slugs handy.

[cmysprks]

I have slugs loaded in mine

[Ian]

cmysprks
I also bought one of those ghost ring sight thingies, but couldn't get mine to fit correctly.

[anyplainjoe]

I've read the #4 buck is the best all around home defense choice.

[zeke013]

Here's (http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/shotgun_ammunition.html) the best write-up on shotgun loads I've read.

[zeke013]

And here's (http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html) their info on terminal ballistics. Interesting info!

[Tito's Glock]

I use 2 3/4" Federal Premium 12 pellet 00 buffered & plated.

[ElevatedThreat]

I recently read a published account of an officer-involved shooting at fairly close range with #4 buckshot:

Perp shoots at cop with .357 magnum.

Cop shoots perp center chest with #4 buckshot at about 7 yards.

Perp flinches, turns, and runs away, shooting back at cop as he runs.

Cop, surprised as hell, shoots perp again in back with second load of #4 buck, at about 15 yards.

Perp keeps running, keeps shooting.

Cop shoots perp in back again with THIRD load of #4 buck, at about 20 yards.

Perp shoots revolver dry, keeps running away.

Other cops intercept perp, tackle him, and hook him up.

Hospital finds that while all 3 shotgun blasts were perfectly placed, none of the many, many pellets of #4 buck penetrated the perp far enough to strike his internals -- just made very bloody surface wounds.

His standard leather jacket and flannel shirt almost defeated the individual #4 buckshot pellets. No bones were broken or penetrated, although a number of sternum and spine hits were made by individual #4 buck pellets. (Larger buck almost certainly would have penetrated to the heart and/or broke the spine.)

Perp recovered fully and went to jail for trying to shoot cops.

Cops changed to 00 buck.

#4 buck might be good indoors at arm's length where it will hit like a slug and make a rathole wound. (Even birdshot works like this at point-blank range.) But at even short-moderate ranges where the pattern starts to spread, the individual pellets of #4 buck are apparently a bit too soft and too light for reliable penetration under all circumstances.

Since reading that account, my defensive buckshot starts at #1 and ends at 000.

Incidentally, actual coroner's reports reportedly show that soft lead Foster slugs rarely over-penetrate a perp's body, since they expand so readily, and thus are safe to use for self-defense.

Just don't miss....

-ET

[anyplainjoe]

I find that hard to believe.

[ElevatedThreat]

Originally posted by anyplainjoe
I find that hard to believe.

Think of it this way.

Each pellet of #4 buck is .24" diameter and weighs a scant 20 grains. At 1200 fps from a riot gun, each pellet is about like a 20-grain bullet from a .25 auto. Except if the pellets are plain soft lead they will deform very badly upon striking anything, and so will penetrate much less than a jacketed .25 ACP bullet would. (Plated hardened buckshot is always better than soft plain lead.)

About the only thing #4 buckshot pellets have going for them is that there are usually LOTS of them, 27 at least, in a 12 ga. load.

But as ranges open up, 27 times nothing is still nothing.

Again, at inside-the-bedroom distances none of this really applies, because the whole mass of #4 buck will hit as one nearly solid mass of projectile weighing an ounce-and-a-quarter. Not much different than a slug if all the pellets are still in the shot cup!

Just don't take that load of #4 buck outside and expect it to perform at 15 or 20 yards like it does at 10 feet.

-ET

[Short Cut]

I'm confident that 00 Buck will get the job done. I use the 12 pellet, 2.75" Federal Premium Magnum at 1350 fps at the muzzle.

[ElevatedThreat]

Originally posted by Short Cut
I'm confident that 00 Buck will get the job done. I use the 12 pellet, 2.75" Federal Premium Magnum at 1350 fps at the muzzle.

I too like that load for close range defense.

As ranges get a bit longer, but still inside buckshot range, try the new Federal 9-pellet 00 load with their new "flite control wad." That load tightened up my patterns so much it has taken the wind out of my urge to have my favorite 11-87 vang-choked.

-ET

[rk246]

Originally posted by ElevatedThreat
I too like that load for close range defense.

As ranges get a bit longer, but still inside buckshot range, try the new Federal 9-pellet 00 load with their new "flite control wad." That load tightened up my patterns so much it has taken the wind out of my urge to have my favorite 11-87 vang-choked.

-ET

I am having a hard time finding this load? Where do you get it?

[Big Time]

I use what I train with, 00 buck.

[gunman_23]

I know some will disagree with this but this is my loading for the shotgun.

I load with an alternating load of shells

In my Remington 870 with Surefire forend it goes from first to last:
2: #4 Buckshot
2: 00 Buckshot
2: Speer Lawman Slugs

With 6: 00 Buck in the side saddle and 5: Remington Slugger slugs on the stock.

If it have to use ANY shells it is a bad situation and if I need more than 2 shells Im in a bad way.

Honestly though for HD, if I go through my first six rounds and the fight is still going on Im transitioning to the 1911 because it is faster to go to another gun than reload a shotty.

[sniper350]

Anything smaller than #1 buck is a waste of money..........for home defense. The biggest obstacle to lead shot penetrating is something as simple as thick clothing. That's why field testing is done with 3 or 4 layers of Denium in front of the ballistic gellatin when trying to record penetration properties.

Stick with the proven load of 00Buck in 8 ,9 or 12 pellet count.
If you are planning to shoot indoors....and hope to have any hearing left when you are done, I will suggest the "reduced recoil" shotgun shells. Not only do they reduce felt recoil by up to 40%, they might actually have a little less percussion blast with them.??

I know you Bad- *sses out there are saying " what a whimp, when my life is on the line who cares about hearing" :shocked: Well if you believe "Flash-Bangs" work in a Tactical situation ........ then I can tell you firing a 12ga. inside a bedroom can stun you just the same;) I had the unplesant experience of being next to a guy that fired that 12 ga inside a small room [ during a training exercise ] ....... and I can tell you it HURT :sad: For 2 or 3 seconds I was frozen, but that's just me :supergrin: It was suppose to be a training shell & not a high brass 00Buck !

From this bad experience - I doubt I could fire 3 or 4 rounds of 12 ga. inside a room and be accurate with it. Others may be tougher & not as affected by the tremendous blast effect. Just keep this in mind as you load up your 3" Magnum, High Velocity, +P ,extended distance shotgun shells :rofl:

JF.

[ElevatedThreat]

Originally posted by rk246
I am having a hard time finding this load? Where do you get it?

It's Federal Premium PFC15400, 9 pellets hardened plated 00, Flite-Control Wad, 1325 fps muzzle velocity.

I got it over the Internet from MidwayUSA.

-ET

[danceswithglock]

Hornady TAP out of my 590A1 patterns like a mother, that's what I use for HD.

[M2 Carbine]

I keep my HD shotguns loaded with 27 count #4 buckshot because of four leg critters as much as two leg.
If the primary purpose was HD I'd load 12 count 00 buck.

I haven't got all that much confidence in the #4 buck as a good stopper at any distance.

I can believe ElevatedThreat's story about the BG getting shot with three #4 buckshot and still running.
#4 doesn't penetrate very well.


--------------------------
ElevatedThreat quote:
Again, at inside-the-bedroom distances none of this really applies, because the whole mass of #4 buck will hit as one nearly solid mass of projectile weighing an ounce-and-a-quarter. Not much different than a slug if all the pellets are still in the shot cup!
--------------------------

Even across the room #4 buck spreads out pretty good and I suspect has lost much of it's punch.
In this case, no doubt this shot would be fatal but if it was a COM hit on a heavy winter coat maybe the BG wouldn't be stopped?

Across the living room distance, 20 feet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/laserheadshot.jpg

00 buck spreads out about the same at 20 ft but the penetration should be a lot better I would think.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/20ft.jpg

[sniper350]

M2 Carbine

Excellent post - showing that what many people believe ,may not be true ........ concerning #4 buck staying as one solid mass across a room.

Your spread at 20 feet tells it all !!

Yes the 00 Buck has a proven track record of good penetration through clothing.

I would not use #4 buck for self defense situations. #1 is the smallest I would go.

I alternate Remington's "reduced recoil" 00 Buck, with Berneke's Black Magic Slugs in my Riot shotgun.

JF.

[SS109]

Right now my HD shotguns are all loaded with Fiocchi low-recoil 00buck, 9 pellets @ 1150fps.

[JKG]

Originally posted by ElevatedThreat
I recently read a published account of an officer-involved shooting at fairly close range with #4 buckshot:
-ET

Please supply said published account. Link or scanned copy would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[ElevatedThreat]

Originally posted by JKG
Please supply said published account. Link or scanned copy would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Sorry -- I think it was in a gun rag, but can't say which one or how far back.

I recounted the article as best I remember it, but can't swear I got all the details just right.

The gist of it is correct though -- cop expected bad guy to be instantly hammered flat by buckshot blast, but the perp just kept running and shooting despite 3 solid body hits with #4 buckshot.

-ET

[Warp]

I prefer 00 buck and really like Remington's 8 pellet reduced recoil load. Very tight groups.

However, I live in an apartment, so the first shells in my shotty are 2 3/4" magnum #4 buck. 34 pellts @ 1250 fps. Should put somebody on their ass in a hurry without going through too many walls.

[Tito]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/laserheadshot.jpg[/IMG]



I predict there would be at least one dead person in this scenario, and that the BG was not one of them. Move the pattern 2 inches to the left, then yes I agree, dead BG.

[bite_the_bullet]

#4 buckshot at a minimum


www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html

"00" buck, pretty good.

www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_rem_00_express/buck_rem_00_express.html//

#1 buck, apparently better

www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_1_rem/gelatin_buckshot_1_rem.html

[ElevatedThreat]

Originally posted by bite_the_bullet
#4 buckshot at a minimum


www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html

"00" buck, pretty good.

www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_rem_00_express/buck_rem_00_express.html//

#1 buck, apparently better

www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_1_rem/gelatin_buckshot_1_rem.html

Number 1 buckshot is under-rated compared to 00 buck.

If you look at the weight of pellets in buckshot loads, 00 buck is a relatively light payload because the pellets are so big that there is a lot of empty "pore space" in the shell between the pellets. Big round fat pellets just don't nest tightly together very well in a small cylinder like a 12 ga. hull.

But #1 buck is right at the "knee in the curve" -- a good balance between adequate individual pellet size and weight on one hand, and more pellets fitting in the shell on the other.

For example, the most 00 pellets (0.33" dia) you can get in a 12 ga. 2 3/4" shell is 12, with a throw-weight of just over 600 grains.

But you can buy a 12 ga. 2 3/4" load of 20 #1 pellets (.30" dia.), total throw-weight of 800 grains, or almost third more.

So until distances really start to open up, the #1 buck is probably a very good choice.

I really wish that Federal would bring out a load of #1 buck in its tiny but excellent line of hardened plated buckshot with the very effective Flite-Control wad.

-ET

[GroovedG19]

Had good results with Federal Classic 00 buck and Remington Express 00 buck.

Right now I have a couple boxes of Federal PowerShok 00 and Hornady TAP 00 buck.

Just ordered 5 boxes of Winchester Ranger 00.

[Stretchman]

+1 on the federal tactical 9 pellet 00. Love that load. It feels like good sex.

BTW, is that Courtney Cox in that perp vs helpless chick target?
Sure looks like her.

I always hated those targets anyway. My first instinct is to yell "STFU, B****!" and nail her one dead center, then laugh at the BG, while teasing him, like " Hey dude, whatcha gonna do now, huh tough guy??"

[psybain]

Originally posted by Stretchman
I always hated those targets anyway. My first instinct is to yell "STFU, B****!" and nail her one dead center, then laugh at the BG, while teasing him, like " Hey dude, whatcha gonna do now, huh tough guy??"

Whatever lead up to that statement was a healthy thought process...:upeyes:

[acjones20]

My mossberg's loaded w/ 5 Remington 3" magnum OO buckshot shells. If I need more than that, I'm dead anyway. I like the 3" b/c they don't only put holes in paper targets at 15 feet, they disentigrate whatever was holding them up. They also sound like the angry fist of God whenever they go off. When I got my buddy (who hunts with .300 Win Mag) to comment on the ferocity of the muzzle blast, I figure that I'd found the right load....

[sniper350]

[When I got my buddy (who hunts with .300 Win Mag) to comment on the ferocity of the muzzle blast, I figure that I'd found the right load....]

Yes , but the title of the thread is Home defense ......... try taking the "fist of God" into your bedroom and cutting loose with a couple of rounds. See if you have any of your hearing left ?? Don't worry, maybe the rest of the family can take care of the rest of the home invaders........ you will have at least gotten one.

Ever wonder why Tactical units use "flash Bangs" inside rooms, and what they hope to accomplish by doing so. Sure, diversion is one reason......but " disorientation " is another.

In the end ......... I guess it's what makes you feel safe


JF.