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maskytrading
01-28-2007, 22:53
Which carbine would you prefer or is better suited for?
1.Home defense
2.Street/Road Rage
3.Urban shootouts (as in bank robbery exit situations)
4.Sierra Madre/Cordillera/Apo (NPA/ASGsituations

IMO:
1.AK47, it looks menacing and I don't have my baby yet
2.the same as no. 1
3.the same as no. 2
4.the same as no. 3

Why? Because nos. 1, 2 and 3 are close encounters so the accuracy factor does not come into play yet.
I am not sure with no.4 if accuracy is the more dominant factor than dependability during rainy season which is app. 9 months a year.

Just wondering: Aren't carbines supposed to be used for close encounters meaning from 50 to 150 yards or thereabouts. Or to put it another way, when you are assaulting somebody, it means you are all over him, my point exactly is I would like my carbine to be 99.995 dependable...if you miss, press trigger again and again and again and you might get lucky...problem is the other side is pressing his trigger,too...what if he's more accurate...NAW!!! how can he aim correctly if my .30 caliber 123 grainers are raining on him...Just like Morales is the more accurate boxer but Manny P.s' machineguns him with blows from all over, all Morales' does is either cover or lies down afterwards.

darwin25
01-28-2007, 23:17
No. 4

AK-47 hands down. I was issued one for more than a year. The gun just keeps on shooting no matter how dirty it gets. Even with corrosive and very dirty chinese ammo. Mud all over it and even full of gritty mt. pinatubo sand. All the M16s are already having problems while the M14s and AK-47's keeps on singing even after 400 + rounds without cleaning, so much banging and drops and 3 very long days. A comrade armed with M16 fell and broke the butt stock of his M16. Since the M16's recoil spring is located in the butt stock, the gun is immdeiately inoperable. I have seen so many M16's with damaged butt stock held together only by some adhesive (epoxy??). Another plus is the AK47' heavy ammo. Unlike the light 5.56mm that gets easily deflected by brush.

The only minus is the long magazine which is really a bother when shooting in prone position or if you have to shoot over a canopy. It gives the shooter a higher profile. And you cant carry more than six mags in a web gear without seriously affecting your mobility.

Ammo is not a major problem anymore unlike the past years. You can get the AK2000 whichn= is chambered for 5.56mm or the original 7.62mm. If this deal Im working right now pushes thru, Im gonna get an AK2000 this year.

During rainy season given that I am armed with an AK47, Im more concerned of the ammo, rather than the gun. Rain and cold weather tends to affect accuracy and ignition. Even if the ammo shoots, you'll notice that you'll get a much lighter recoil most of the time. I've seen and heard many cases of plugged barrels because their ammo turned squib.

In a jungle set-up, you'll never get me to pick up an M4 carbine unless absolutely necessary.

My order of preferrence

1. AK-47
2. M14
3. Standard length M16
4. Short barreled M16 derivative

maskytrading
01-28-2007, 23:29
Originally posted by darwin25

Ammo is not a major problem anymore unlike the past years. You can get the AK2000 whichn= is chambered for 5.56mm or the original 7.62mm. If this deal Im working right now pushes thru, Im gonna get an AK2000 this year. [/B]

Does WSC have AK2000s in stock right now? I think that an AK system weapon mated with 5.56 Nato is an optimal combination like the AK101, but will this solve the accuracy question? I hope so...Just imagine...everytime you squeeze--bang...shoot up to 300-400yards and carry more ammo!!

maskytrading
01-28-2007, 23:52
Originally posted by darwin25
[B]No. 4

Another plus is the AK47' heavy ammo. Unlike the light 5.56mm that gets easily deflected by brush.

In a jungle set-up, you'll never get me to pick up an M4 carbine unless absolutely necessary.

]

Yes, bullet deflection is a reality in heavy brush/ undergrowth(cogon/talahib, shruberries etc)fire-fight situations...Light and very fast bullets are angled more than heavier and slower ones if they happen to hit "brush". +1 Point again for AK47.

revo
01-29-2007, 01:33
Here's how I see this.

1) Home Defense - Neither. Get a pump shotgun and use buckshot. And
call LE on your cell phone while bringing your
family to a safe room.

2)Street/Road Rage - Neither. Drive away from the fight and call Law
Enforcement. You are not trained. You will
only create a bigger mess. Call the highway
patrol on your cell phone and give their license
plates.

3) Urban Shootouts - Neither. Run away from the shootout. Again, you
are not trained and you have no MOUT experience.
You will panic and get others killed.

4) Against the NPA in a jungle - If you see NPA in the jungle,
be very polite and act like a civilian and offer
them coffee or food. As soon as you get
get out of there, call the Phil Marines, OK ?

Let the experts do the fighting.

cebuboy
01-29-2007, 03:31
Originally posted by revo
Let the experts do the fighting.

:agree:

toxic
01-29-2007, 03:48
AK's are not that popular in democratic countries compare to the
M16,m14,m4,AR's cuz of bad publicity and/or misleading propaganda.

My choice would be the AK47..love the bang ..:50cal: tested in all sorts of climate and conditions.

A friend has one and his only complain is its sooooo heavy ,but tough as an old chew chew train.

royal glockster
01-29-2007, 05:01
I pick the AK47......if the situation calls for a "spray and pray" engagement.....and if the 7.62mm russian ammo supply is free. However, if i buy my own ammo, i pick the m16 (baby or standard)and if the situation calls for a long distance engagement where accuracy means a lot!

Nasa Pilipinas tayo bro, ammo supply of 7.62mm russian is very very very very scarce and presyong ginto po! Not to mention that spare parts of AK is virtually nil.:supergrin:

batangueno
01-29-2007, 06:08
Originally posted by maskytrading
Which carbine would you prefer or is better suited for?
1.Home defense
2.Street/Road Rage
3.Urban shootouts (as in bank robbery exit situations)
4.Sierra Madre/Cordillera/Apo (NPA/ASGsituations



Street/Road Rage???? Why do you need a gun for street/road rage?

maskytrading
01-29-2007, 06:10
So far, it seems that dependability(AK47) is leading accuracy(Baby) in our little thread. Another question: Is the Ak47 so inaccurate that its' fame is that of "spray and pray" only, OR that the baby is so undependable that once you take it outing and you miss a "cleaning and lubricating" stop, it quits?

royal glockster
01-29-2007, 06:42
Originally posted by maskytrading
So far, it seems that dependability(AK47) is leading accuracy(Baby) in our little thread. Another question: Is the Ak47 so inaccurate that its' fame is that of "spray and pray" only, OR that the baby is so undependable that once you take it outing and you miss a "cleaning and lubricating" stop, it quits?

"baby" so undependable???!!!:rofl:

flash1919
01-29-2007, 06:56
as ive heared the newer AR carbines (M4) uses a much heavier bullet (parehas daw ng bala ng SAW minimi)and has a rifling of 1:7 compared to the older A1 which has 1:12, kaya kahit na maiksi, ang efective range ay parehas pa rin sa older type na m-16. karamihan daw ng bak-bakan ay nasa 200 mtr or less kaya napalitan ng assault rifle ang battle rifle (m14, fal). "ito ay nabasa ko lang at di ko naranasan sa totoong buhay";)

cebuboy
01-29-2007, 07:30
Originally posted by maskytrading
So far, it seems that dependability(AK47) is leading accuracy(Baby) in our little thread. Another question: Is the Ak47 so inaccurate that its' fame is that of "spray and pray" only, OR that the baby is so undependable that once you take it outing and you miss a "cleaning and lubricating" stop, it quits?

most converted short barreled M16s using the carbine gas system specially 10 inches and below suffer from some form of malfunctions. 11.5" is the minimum for reliability, or you can install one of those krinkov(AKSU-74) like muzzle devices which increases dwell time that contributes to reliability:) and one more thing, a dry ar is prone to failure.

the ak is not that inaccurate, it can hit bowling pins at 30m easy. ergonomics is pretty basic but usable, it goes from safe, auto, semi and makes that clacking noise when manipulated. the down side is that ammo is expensive compared to 5.56 which we can reload.

cebuboy
01-29-2007, 07:37
Originally posted by flash1919
as ive heared the newer AR carbines (M4) uses a much heavier bullet (parehas daw ng bala ng SAW minimi)and has a rifling of 1:7 compared to the older A1 which has 1:12, kaya kahit na maiksi, ang efective range ay parehas pa rin sa older type na m-16. karamihan daw ng bak-bakan ay nasa 200 mtr or less kaya napalitan ng assault rifle ang battle rifle (m14, fal). "ito ay nabasa ko lang at di ko naranasan sa totoong buhay";)

the newer ar uses the m855 ball, it is heavier than the m193. it has a slower velocity hence it does not fragment very well, fragmentation is what gives the 5.56 its stopping power. for shorties using m855, the effective range is reduced considerably(less than 100) due to lower muzzle velocities. check out ammo-oracle.com for a more detailed explanation regarding the lethality of the 5.56 round:)

nitrox920
01-29-2007, 08:18
:50cal: :50cal:
Anything that fires as long as its a rifle it's fine with me.

Dont forget to Call the police 117

kontra
01-29-2007, 09:06
Originally posted by revo
Here's how I see this.

1) Home Defense - Neither. Get a pump shotgun and use buckshot. And
call LE on your cell phone while bringing your
family to a safe room.

2)Street/Road Rage - Neither. Drive away from the fight and call Law
Enforcement. You are not trained. You will
only create a bigger mess. Call the highway
patrol on your cell phone and give their license
plates.

3) Urban Shootouts - Neither. Run away from the shootout. Again, you
are not trained and you have no MOUT experience.
You will panic and get others killed.

4) Against the NPA in a jungle - If you see NPA in the jungle,
be very polite and act like a civilian and offer
them coffee or food. As soon as you get
get out of there, call the Phil Marines, OK ?

Let the experts do the fighting.

I agree with you 101%. especially nos. 2, 3 & 4

nitrox920
01-29-2007, 09:30
Since the Philippines is 80% AGriculture
How about Privately owned Farmland or fishpond areas?

vega
01-29-2007, 09:38
I agree with revo on all counts.

Allegra
01-29-2007, 09:50
Pag wala akong pera , I always dream I'm robbing a bank w/ racegun in 38super, w/ 3 32rnd mags naka full rig pa , syempre d pwedeng hindi naka rudy projects para cool and evil ang dating....kaso I realize kaya pala wala akong pera kasi ang mahal pa assemble ng p@#$%^%^ng race gun na yan


Seriously , a carbine against NPAs/ASGs??
If I'm surrounded by ASGs , I'll lay down my AK , sit down , put my head between my legs and kiss my @$$ goodbye

mtho
01-29-2007, 10:04
Originally posted by Allegra
Pag wala akong pera , I always dream I'm robbing a bank w/ racegun in 38super, w/ 3 32rnd mags naka full rig pa , syempre d pwedeng hindi naka rudy projects para cool and evil ang dating....kaso I realize kaya pala wala akong pera kasi ang mahal pa assemble ng p@#$%^%^ng race gun na yan


Seriously , a carbine against NPAs/ASGs??
If I'm surrounded by ASGs , I'll lay down my AK , sit down , put my head between my legs and kiss my @$$ goodbye

what no running? ala 007.pare saan ka nakakuha ng 32 round mag ng 38super? pwede ba sa ipsc yan?

Allegra
01-29-2007, 10:25
Originally posted by mtho
what no running? ala 007.pare saan ka nakakuha ng 32 round mag ng 38super? pwede ba sa ipsc yan?


fantasy e , tsaka masakit tuhod ko , so dapat naka ducati getaway bike ( pag scooter mainit sa tmg )

Yuo can make a 32rnder if you make putol 2 mags and weld them together. Kahit beltfed legal sa open

bikethief
01-29-2007, 10:32
Hehe. I understand the AK VS. AR debate. I say debate because you are treating it as a debate and not as a "poll" like you stated in the thread title. I think the integral flaw of this thread lies in the context of the supposed poll. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say that I've never imagined walking down Ayala in full battle gear, but I would hardly use this scenario as criteria for my preferred long arm!:rofl:

If I had to choose (using less imaginative criteria) I would go for the M4 just because it is a "free world" weapon as opposed to the communist roots of the AK.

Both are fine weapons and I would love to have both in my armory.


PS: May gamot ako sa roadrage. Gawa ka ng iPod playlist of all your Karaoke favorites and sing your lungs out pag traffic. I believe there are 2 places on earth where everybody magically becomes the next American Idol: Alone in the shower & Alone in the car! :thumbsup:

chowchow
01-29-2007, 11:13
Magkano ang AK 2000? Made by norinco by yan?

zorkd
01-29-2007, 11:52
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm

if you like the stoner design, you will possibly not like the article.

revo
01-29-2007, 13:15
Originally posted by nitrox920
Since the Philippines is 80% AGriculture
How about Privately owned Farmland or fishpond areas?

nitrox,

You edited your post but I was actually able to read your previous post before you changed it.

All I have to say that a landowner and/or capitalist brandishing a high-powered weapon, even if its your own property, represents, to the Nice People Around, a prime target for expropriation.

If you feel that you are in danger in your own farm or fishpond and can't move about without a show of force, then something is wrong with the way you do business that may be creating a gap between you and the local people that will surely attract the attention of those who have a more radical interpretation of how social justice should be meted.

You might want to examine how you relate to the local people and improve relations, if need be, so you don't feel somebody is out to get you - even if those grievances are not warranted.

As a suggestion, do service to the people sometimes within your power and means - like bring a doctor there for free checkups or help in the community with donation stuff to the local schools, etc.

I actually have a long time friend who owns big coconut farmland in Quezon that has very good relations with the Nice People Around and they don't bother him too much.

chowchow
01-29-2007, 15:06
I would say get a M1 Garand. Mura pa yan at .3006 power. Can penetrate thick brush, coconut treetrunks, etc. Its also loud. Lots of ammo in clips at hand. Kung pang farmland or prawnfarms, it reaches really good lalo na malalayo ang mga distance.

flash1919
01-29-2007, 15:35
Originally posted by cebuboy
the newer ar uses the m855 ball, it is heavier than the m193. it has a slower velocity hence it does not fragment very well, fragmentation is what gives the 5.56 its stopping power. for shorties using m855, the effective range is reduced considerably(less than 100) due to lower muzzle velocities. check out ammo-oracle.com for a more detailed explanation regarding the lethality of the 5.56 round:)

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm
it is on this site that shows that the m193 ammo has a velocity of 945 m/s and an effective range of 460 m on an m16-a1, while the m855 has a velocity of 975 m/s and an effective range of 550 m on an m16-a2.

isuzu
01-29-2007, 19:12
Originally posted by royal glockster
"baby" so undependable???!!!:rofl:

That's why when you jokingly give a "baby" to an Army soldier, he gives you a strange look.

The MILF also does not want the "baby." They'll gladly go for the standard M16, M14 or even the Garand.

isuzu
01-29-2007, 19:17
If I were to choose between an AK and a Baby, sans the scenarios presented (sakit lang yan sa ulo), I'd choose the AK.

The AK's mechanism is so reliable that Israel has this on their Galils, which they had Valmet contract to build their receivers.

It's only in the Philippines that the 7.62x39 ammo is expensive. Elsewhere, they're dirt-cheap.

That's why I'm planning to buy a Norinco SKS when I get my license. Not bad for CDN$139.00 at www.marstar.ca.

bulm540
01-29-2007, 19:21
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darwin25
[B]No. 4

Since the M16's recoil spring is located in the butt stock, the gun is immdeiately inoperable. I have seen so many M16's with damaged butt stock held together only by some adhesive (epoxy??).
????The butt stock has the extension tube ( buffer tube) made of high grade aluminum. Unless you bend it or cut it off the rifle should be operable.

darwin25
01-29-2007, 19:24
Originally posted by bulm540
Unless you bend it or cut it off the rifle should be operable.

Exactly what happened. That very thing just broke.

bulm540
01-29-2007, 19:25
I choose my Bushmaster 16"

bulm540
01-29-2007, 19:27
My brother had a romanian AK before and it was a jammatic. He is a convert now and has 2 AR 15s.

darwin25
01-29-2007, 19:33
Originally posted by isuzu
That's why when you jokingly give a "baby" to an Army soldier, he gives you a strange look.

The MILF also does not want the "baby." They'll gladly go for the standard M16, M14 or even the Garand.

Its more of the stopping power and penetration issue. Most of the battlefields in our country is jungle and thick brush where you will be sometimes forced to fight on uneven terrain thus making it hard to make effective use of all your combat personnel and firepower. Plus many combats in the jungle happen in distances of 25-100 meters. Sometime even closer. Its only where you are positioned in the terrain that makes the difference. In such a situation, you need all the efective stopping power you can get. The maneuverability of the short barreled M4 and the likes loses its advantage when what you really need is stopping power and penetration. Standard M193 ball fired form a short barrel M16 derivative will not make it past 25-30 meters of cogon grass when shooting in prone position.

darwin25
01-29-2007, 19:35
Originally posted by bulm540
My brother had a romanian AK before and it was a jammatic. He is a convert now and has 2 AR 15s.

Romanian AKs are known for being crap. Chinese AKM are solid

maskytrading
01-29-2007, 21:12
Originally posted by revo
Here's how I see this.
1) Home Defense - Neither. Get a pump shotgun and use buckshot. And call LE on your cell phone while bringing your family to a safe room.
2)Street/Road Rage - Neither. Drive away from the fight and call Law Enforcement. You are not trained. You will only create a bigger mess. Call the highway patrol on your cell phone and give their license plates.
3) Urban Shootouts - Neither. Run away from the shootout. Again, you are not trained and you have no MOUT experience.
You will panic and get others killed.
4) Against the NPA in a jungle - If you see NPA in the jungl be very polite and act like a civilian and offer them coffee or food. As soon as you get out of there, call the Phil Marines, OK ?
Let the experts do the fighting.

Yup, I agree with you completely. From now on, I'm taking out the conditions nos. 1,2,3 and 4 which is not essential for us to air our preferences or opinions. Let's just discuss which is "you would prefer: Baby or AK47 and why"

maskytrading
01-29-2007, 21:38
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isuzu
[B]
It's only in the Philippines that the 7.62x39 ammo is expensive. Elsewhere, they're dirt-cheap.[QUOTE]

Even 5.56Nato is also expensive. Armscor sells it @ 22Php each; TruWeight reloads it at 13Php and it is really so undercharged that you can feel the powder move inside when you shake it gently. Shades of a squib! Twin Pines sells 7.62x39R at 22Php also per 500 rounds;and Php22.50 per 100...So if you have an M4 or an AK47, it will cost much about the same here..although I'm not sure about costs if you roll your own. BTW, I read one of your posts about M1 Garands in LSC Bacolod which I posted a reply...FYI I am from Bacolod and studied in LSC too

revo
01-29-2007, 21:52
I actually have both albeit their semi-auto versions. I live in the US and for me it would be the M16/AR15 hands down.

1) There is simply more 5.56 ammo available in the US than 7.63x39, hence 5.56 ammo is cheaper nowadays over here. You can get any gun you like but if you can't get the ammo you are useless. If I were in Russia or China, the story might be different.

2) There are more spare parts available here in the US since M16/M4 is standard US military issue.

Reliability is important, accuracy is important but if you can't get ammo, everything is moot and academic. If you are unable to repair your gun because you can't get parts, your gun will be useless soon enough.

The above being said the AR, by design, is more accurate than the AK47 platform because of those multiple locking lugs while the AK is more durable and reliable than the AR because it was designed with somewhat loose tolerances so that it can tolerate abuse and neglect.
The AK is also simpler, and hence, cheaper to manufacture than an AR.
The nominal accuracy of an AR is good up to 600 yards while the AK is reaching the edge of its accuracy at 200 yards.

The one advantage that the AR has that is not possible with an AK is that the upper and the lower are detachable and with different uppers you can shoot different calibers.

So there you have it, the AR15/M16 for me.

isuzu
01-29-2007, 22:32
Originally posted by maskytrading
[QUOTE]Originally posted by isuzu
[B]
It's only in the Philippines that the 7.62x39 ammo is expensive. Elsewhere, they're dirt-cheap.[QUOTE]

BTW, I read one of your posts about M1 Garands in LSC Bacolod which I posted a reply...FYI I am from Bacolod and studied in LSC too

I wonder where the Garands went. They were very well-maintained (thanks to the diligence of Kermit). Our school had to borrow some of the Garands when we had our CAT. Kermit showed me some of the match-grade Garands which were seldom taken out of the armory.

maskytrading
01-29-2007, 22:39
Originally posted by revo
I actually have both albeit their semi-auto versions. I live in the US and for me it would be the M16/AR15 hands down.
1) There is simply more 5.56 ammo available in the US than 7.63x39, hence 5.56 ammo is cheaper nowadays over here. You can get any gun you like but if you can't get the ammo you are useless. If I were in Russia or China, the story might be different.
2) There are more spare parts available here in the US since M16/M4 is standard US military issue.
Reliability is important, accuracy is important but if you can't get ammo, everything is moot and academic. If you are unable to repair your gun because you can't get parts, your gun will be useless soon enough.
The above being said the AR, by design, is more accurate than the AK47 platform because of those multiple locking lugs while the AK is more durable and reliable than the AR because it was designed with somewhat loose tolerances so that it can tolerate abuse and neglect.
The AK is also simpler, and hence, cheaper to manufacture than an AR.
The nominal accuracy of an AR is good up to 600 yards while the AK is reaching the edge of its accuracy at 200 yards.
The one advantage that the AR has that is not possible with an AK is that the upper and the lower are detachable and with different uppers you can shoot different calibers.
So there you have it, the AR15/M16 for me.

Since you are State-side, I agree with you the M16 is a better choice, logistically wise. But as you said, what if you are in China or Russia or Iraq or Afghan or Sahara?
Again, I agree with you that an M16 will outshoot an AK47 as far as accuracy and distance is concerned but it's an unfair comparison considering that barrel lengths are not approximately the same. And 600 yards would be way beyond the accuracy envelope of an AK47 but then even with a scoped M4, it is still too far.

revo
01-29-2007, 23:17
Actually, 600 yards is very do-able with an AR15.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/highpower.asp

See the above link.

maskytrading
01-29-2007, 23:59
Originally posted by revo
Actually, 600 yards is very do-able with an AR15.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/highpower.asp

See the above link.

Yes, I guess 600yds. is doable with an AR15/M16 version with diopter rear and post front sights but I noticed that an M4 is not considered as a viable equipment there. IMO, an m4 has about the same range and accuracy as an AK47 assuming that the same person who shoots both will shoot each without bias using as issued open sights at 200 meters. Also, in target competition situations, the object(target) is in plain and full view and stationary while in combat enviroment, everybody is in concealment, behind cover and moving and this makes the 600 yard open sighted or telescoped shot with an M16 doable yes, but very hard to accomplish much less with an m4 and highly improbable with an AK47.

revo
01-30-2007, 00:06
Sorry, nope, no diopter, no special sights. You can do it.

http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/rifle.html

See the picture in the above link.

Valor1
01-30-2007, 05:37
Kapag bragging rights lang at uber modification ang hanap, M16/AR15. Pero kung gyerahan at all around cleaning, AK na ako.

flash1919
01-30-2007, 06:20
Originally posted by Valor1
Kapag bragging rights lang at uber modification ang hanap, M16/AR15. Pero kung gyerahan at all around cleaning, AK na ako.

+1

ar tried the metal stamp design sa ar-18 diba? to lower production cost

jasonub
01-30-2007, 08:49
ill go with the m4/m16. its the shooter not the gun. Im not going to get a AK pangit na pwede ka pang pagkamalan na "tango" hahhahaha!

NEver saw bin laden with a AR:supergrin:

revo
01-30-2007, 13:20
C'mon guys, why not get both ?

Hindi yan parang gf na maaring magselos if you have two or more.

Guaranteed.

:supergrin:

bulm540
01-30-2007, 17:52
Originally posted by revo
I actually have both albeit their semi-auto versions. I live in the US and for me it would be the M16/AR15 hands down.

1) There is simply more 5.56 ammo available in the US than 7.63x39, hence 5.56 ammo is cheaper nowadays over here. You can get any gun you like but if you can't get the ammo you are useless. If I were in Russia or China, the story might be different.

2) There are more spare parts available here in the US since M16/M4 is standard US military issue.

Reliability is important, accuracy is important but if you can't get ammo, everything is moot and academic. If you are unable to repair your gun because you can't get parts, your gun will be useless soon enough.

The above being said the AR, by design, is more accurate than the AK47 platform because of those multiple locking lugs while the AK is more durable and reliable than the AR because it was designed with somewhat loose tolerances so that it can tolerate abuse and neglect.
The AK is also simpler, and hence, cheaper to manufacture than an AR.
The nominal accuracy of an AR is good up to 600 yards while the AK is reaching the edge of its accuracy at 200 yards.

The one advantage that the AR has that is not possible with an AK is that the upper and the lower are detachable and with different uppers you can shoot different calibers.

So there you have it, the AR15/M16 for me.

Ditto, we did an informal accuray test between and AR and an AK. Rested at 100 yds, The AR with open sight was averaging 2/1/2 , with optics 1 1/2 inches. AKs with open sights 7-9 ins.

vega
01-30-2007, 18:10
Was this thread removed and put back by the mods? When I checked my email and follow the thread it says that this thread does not exists. Or just my imagination?

darwin25
01-30-2007, 19:02
Originally posted by bulm540
Ditto, we did an informal accuray test between and AR and an AK. Rested at 100 yds, The AR with open sight was averaging 2/1/2 , with optics 1 1/2 inches. AKs with open sights 7-9 ins.

I think the Serbian snipers armed with standard AK-47s will tell you otherwise.

Originally posted by jasonub
ill go with the m4/m16. its the shooter not the gun. Im not going to get a AK pangit na pwede ka pang pagkamalan na "tango" hahhahaha!

NEver saw bin laden with a AR:supergrin:

That's because rebel / terrorist armies get into days of gunbattle with very little chance of cleaning their fireams in between gunfights and their troops dont get replaced right away or resupplied. M16/AR is best suited for armies that has logistics and replacement troops and equipment available. The AK is best suited for all hell breaks loose gunfighting for days on end with very little maintenance.

I dont agree with the notion that the AR is best suited for trained troops while the AK is best suited for conscript/untrained troops.

Its the shooter not the gun. In favor of the AK:supergrin: .

chowchow
01-30-2007, 19:19
USN SEALs have chosen the Chinese made Type 56 folding stock AK.

mtho
01-30-2007, 19:46
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darwin25
[B]I think the Serbian snipers armed with standard AK-47s will tell you otherwise.


I read an article that the new issue ak74 is more accurate, its of a different caliber and is sometimes used to shoot/cut phonewires when its out of reach.

isuzu
01-30-2007, 21:09
Originally posted by darwin25
I think the Serbian snipers armed with standard AK-47s will tell you otherwise.

I think the Serbian snipers use the Yugoslav M-76, which is a modified AK 47/AK 74 using 7.92 x 57 Mauser round; which, ballistically, has a longer range and is more accurate than the 7.62 x 39 ammo.

I still would like to own an AK 47.:thumbsup:

maskytrading
01-30-2007, 21:20
Originally posted by chowchow
USN SEALs have chosen the Chinese made Type 56 folding stock AK.

I've read a similar article somewhere that says USN Seals chose Chinese, Valmet Sako and Serbian Yugo AK47s mainly because of the construction thickness of the receivers which is l.5mm as opposed to lmm thick receivers of Egyptian, Romanian, N.Korean clones of the original. We're lucky...AKs available here are China made and the price tag of 40-45K per...is reasonable IMO...The problem is CPNP who is very selective in approvals

maskytrading
01-30-2007, 21:30
Originally posted by revo
Actually, 600 yards is very do-able with an AR15.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/highpower.asp

See the above link.

Yes, I see your point..The lady won the event with an M16 with a 20inch heavy match barrel..But try doing that with an as issued open sighted M4. As I said it's not fair to compare a 20inch barreled M16 to a l6inch AK47. Let's be fair and compare the 16inch M4 instead

revo
01-30-2007, 22:04
Originally posted by maskytrading
I've read a similar article somewhere that says USN Seals chose Chinese, Valmet Sako and Serbian Yugo AK47s mainly because of the construction thickness of the receivers which is l.5mm as opposed to lmm thick receivers of Egyptian, Romanian, N.Korean clones of the original. We're lucky...AKs available here are China made and the price tag of 40-45K per...is reasonable IMO...The problem is CPNP who is very selective in approvals

The SEALS can purchase any firearm they damn well please but it doesn't mean it's standard issue.

And sometimes they purchase other types of firearms for black ops that can't be traced back to the US.

Standard issue is still M4 and Sig 226.

flash1919
01-30-2007, 23:03
Originally posted by maskytrading
Yes, I see your point..The lady won the event with an M16 with a 20inch heavy match barrel..But try doing that with an as issued open sighted M4. As I said it's not fair to compare a 20inch barreled M16 to a l6inch AK47. Let's be fair and compare the 16inch M4 instead

in comes down to personal preference, both are great firearms, since this is a survey, ill go with the M4!:thumbsup:
check this
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm

whats next? p16.40 vs edge?:supergrin:

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 04:59
Originally posted by revo
The SEALS can purchase any firearm they damn well please but it doesn't mean it's standard issue.

And sometimes they purchase other types of firearms for black ops that can't be traced back to the US.

Standard issue is still M4 and Sig 226.

True, m4 and sig226 is still standard issue and I am positive that they are not going to change to or adapt AKs now or in the short term. But why choose Chinese, Valmet Sako and Serb-Yugo made AK47s over the other clones? Is it because these have a good reputation as to their quality in manufacture resulting in dependability, accuracy etc. The SEALs know for a fact that this is the enemys' choice of weapon and as such they would want to test its' capability and what better way to test said capability of your enemys' main rifle---of course, by acquiring the better or the best made AKs...And then test this against your own weapon. If you are going get (S)crap clones to pit against your weapon, then who's fooling who.

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 05:39
I'm wondering why in the US of A; bastion of democracy and home of the Eugenes' Armalites (that's how we call M16s in RP), Comrade Michaels' AK47 is also becoming popular if not already...Where during the '90s a ban was imposed in its importation. Was it because of the rantings of the Anti-gunners or that the volume of sales was eating a big slice in the local FA industry market pie? IMO, it was both. The first reason above is always omnipresent, anything that has gunpowder and goes-bang; anti-gunners will oppose it because that's what they are: anti-gunners...The second is that a firearm that was invented and used by the (Cold War)enemy for so many decades suddenly becomes a favorite, why??...is it cheap, yes it is cheap but after a while if the quality (accuracy, dependability etc.)is bad, the product will fall by wayside...but if the price is reasonable and quality of manufacture is good, sales will go boom...And sales volume is a very good indicator that a certain product/firearm is good...And you cannot put one over the American gun loving population regarding a certain firearm, in this case the AK47. And my fearless opinionated conclusion, Americans love the AK47 because it is a good, dependable, quite accurate gun period

jasonub
01-31-2007, 05:43
And sometimes they purchase other types of firearms for black ops that can't be traced back to the US.

Standard issue is still M4 and Sig 226. [/B][/QUOTE]

bingo. if you use an m4 in a terrorist area and it gets recovered there, they will conclude "ah americans!"

its your preference. buy and ak here and go to battle. good luck when your ammo gets depleted. even terrorists and criminals here know they should buy m16s and not ak's.

darwin25
01-31-2007, 05:53
As much as I want an AK-47, the problem is the ammo supply. Unless I get my hand on an AK2000 chambered for 5.56mm, Im getting the 2nd in my list, the M14. There are lots of M14s and ammo out there. I prefer it more than an AR.

nitrox920
01-31-2007, 06:17
Originally posted by revo
nitrox,

You edited your post but I was actually able to read your previous post before you changed it.

All I have to say that a landowner and/or capitalist brandishing a high-powered weapon, even if its your own property, represents, to the Nice People Around, a prime target for expropriation.

If you feel that you are in danger in your own farm or fishpond and can't move about without a show of force, then something is wrong with the way you do business that may be creating a gap between you and the local people that will surely attract the attention of those who have a more radical interpretation of how social justice should be meted.

You might want to examine how you relate to the local people and improve relations, if need be, so you don't feel somebody is out to get you - even if those grievances are not warranted.

As a suggestion, do service to the people sometimes within your power and means - like bring a doctor there for free checkups or help in the community with donation stuff to the local schools, etc.

I actually have a long time friend who owns big coconut farmland in Quezon that has very good relations with the Nice People Around and they don't bother him too much.


Thanks for your thoughts revo,

I edited my post because i feel that i was out of topic since the scenario were mostly in the urban setting except for the rare jungle scenario.hahahah

Things in the provinces and towns are far different from urbanized area.

Concerning carrying of HP Rifles within my property why not..:2gun:

1. Its the only place where i can carry it without additional permits.:banana:

2. I dont feel that secure being armed with just a handgun. An HP Rifle is better when distance is a factor.
:50cal:

3. The Army intel has been informing us (community) that the NPA are hitting "SOFT" targets (civilians) for their AGAW ARMAS project. to increase their firepower capability to collect more taxes. it's not ideology or social justice anymore but more of banditry, extortion and terrorism.

I dont feel that i am in danger in my farm or fishpond with the people that works with me or with the local people.:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :whip: I dont have a problem with that. :bowdown: :bowdown:

Its the bad people ( NPA,Armed groups,Bandits,drunkard, gangs):devildance::devildance: that i am concerned with.:devildance:

On community service i already done that I brought in medical mission in my area.:music: I am also part of a civic group that "leads the way".

That's good that a friend of yours has good relations with the NPA's they dont bother him too "much" anymore. I guess they got what they wanted from him...Please remind your friend that the NPA's is the enemy of the State. :shame: A group of terrorist that extort, kidnap and execute innocent people.
:noevil:

revo
01-31-2007, 08:20
Originally posted by maskytrading
The SEALs know for a fact that this is the enemys' choice of weapon and as such they would want to test its' capability and what better way to test said capability of your enemys' main rifle---of course, by acquiring the better or the best made AKs...And then test this against your own weapon. If you are going get (S)crap clones to pit against your weapon, then who's fooling who.

That could be a factor.

But remember, in the US and pretty much sa Pinas also, government purchasing is not done on the basis of best product.

It's usually done on the basis of distributing political favors. Tingnan mo nga yang Halliburton. As a good example, sa Iraq, there were were millions of Iraqi made AKs collected during the war. But the new Iraqi police were equipped with AKs imported from Poland.

So ayan.

revo
01-31-2007, 08:27
Originally posted by maskytrading
I'm wondering why in the US of A; bastion of democracy and home of the Eugenes' Armalites (that's how we call M16s in RP), Comrade Michaels' AK47 is also becoming popular if not already... And my fearless opinionated conclusion, Americans love the AK47 because it is a good, dependable, quite accurate gun period

All of the above, actually. The AK is a good gun for the price.

Got it ?

The imported AK in the US is approx $350 while an AR15 would run you at least $750.

Why the price difference ? Because the AR15 is more gun for the money. It is more accurate at longer ranges.

Ganun lang really.

chowchow
01-31-2007, 11:12
AK 2000 in .223 caliber, kung meyron sila mas maganda.

VICARA
01-31-2007, 13:02
if you haven't visited yet, here's a forum thats exclusively AK.

All but AK-47 (http://akfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)


AK-74 (http://akfiles.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9)

bulm540
01-31-2007, 17:18
Originally posted by darwin25
I think the Serbian snipers armed with standard AK-47s will tell you otherwise.



That's because rebel / terrorist armies get into days of gunbattle with very little chance of cleaning their fireams in between gunfights and their troops dont get replaced right away or resupplied. M16/AR is best suited for armies that has logistics and replacement troops and equipment available. The AK is best suited for all hell breaks loose gunfighting for days on end with very little maintenance.

I dont agree with the notion that the AR is best suited for trained troops while the AK is best suited for conscript/untrained troops.

Its the shooter not the gun. In favor of the AK:supergrin: .
I thought they used the dragunov.
Ahhhh...maybe heavier barrel? Hi speed films of AK have significant barrel whip

I agree, When those bastards were shooting up the crowded markets they were liable to hit somebody. No accuracy needed.

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 21:10
Originally posted by revo
All of the above, actually. The AK is a good gun for the price.
Got it ?
The imported AK in the US is approx $350 while an AR15 would run you at least $750.
Why the price difference ? Because the AR15 is more gun for the money. It is more accurate at longer ranges.
Ganun lang really.

Imported AK47s are cheaper mainly because costs of production in their country of origin are lower..."An AR15 would run you at least US$750" you said; But a Made in Usa Arsenal Inc. AK47 will set you back for at least $1,250.00(see attachment below)..."Why the price difference" of about $500...I'll venture an answer..Cost of Production Factor... Produce M16s in China and then export it to the USA...Price would be about $350 also.

This attachment was lifted from Impact Guns Catalog




Arsenal AK47 Classic Wood Stock
$1,250.00 Item #. SA M7CLAS
Out of stock: 6-12 weeks accepting orders










Arsenal AK47 Classic Wood Stock
$1,250.00 Item #. SA M7CLAS
Out of stock: 6-12 weeks accepting orders

Wp.22
01-31-2007, 21:15
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/greenvtec/CA_AK.jpg

1:1 replica of arsenal made AK

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 21:25
Originally posted by revo
That could be a factor.
But remember, in the US and pretty much sa Pinas also, government purchasing is not done on the basis of best product.
It's usually done on the basis of distributing political favors. Tingnan mo nga yang Halliburton. As a good example, sa Iraq, there were were millions of Iraqi made AKs collected during the war. But the new Iraqi police were equipped with AKs imported from Poland.
So ayan.

Yes, I agree with you that contracts are awarded as political payments even if such is not always the most advantageous to the government or military whether in the US of A or RP...best example is the performance of the M16 in Vietnam vs. AK47

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 21:31
Originally posted by Wp.22
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/greenvtec/CA_AK.jpg

1:1 replica of arsenal made AK

BEAUTIFUL!!! Bro, kindly post the specs. TYIA. Where in the world did you get this assuming you are here in RP.

Wp.22
01-31-2007, 21:39
classic army ak slr. upgrades are sp140 springs, tokyo marui motor, deepfire piston, systema piston head, CA stu flat gears, stock piston body, large battery. current fps is 470 plus at .25 bbs.

isuzu
01-31-2007, 21:43
Originally posted by maskytrading
Imported AK47s are cheaper mainly because costs of production in their country of origin are lower..."An AR15 would run you at least US$750" you said; But a Made in Usa Arsenal Inc. AK47 will set you back for at least $1,250.00(see attachment below)..."Why the price difference" of about $500...I'll venture an answer..Cost of Production Factor... Produce M16s in China and then export it to the USA...Price would be about $350 also.

This attachment was lifted from Impact Guns Catalog




Arsenal AK47 Classic Wood Stock
$1,250.00 Item #. SA M7CLAS
Out of stock: 6-12 weeks accepting orders










Arsenal AK47 Classic Wood Stock
$1,250.00 Item #. SA M7CLAS
Out of stock: 6-12 weeks accepting orders

Arsenal is always out of stock. There are several AK assemblers such as Atlantic Firearms, Aimsurplus, Impactguns, Vectorarms. Vector arms even build Galil and UZI clones. IMHO, Vector has the best AK rifles for the money.

They were running around $300.00 after the assault weapons ban was lifted, but due to the high demand of these rifles, the prices just skyrocketed.

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 21:45
Originally posted by Wp.22
classic army ak slr. upgrades are sp140 springs, tokyo marui motor, deepfire piston, systema piston head, CA stu flat gears, stock piston body, large battery. current fps is 470 plus at .25 bbs.

What about the "rails", is it stock or did you get it somewhere and "dropped it in"?

Wp.22
01-31-2007, 21:54
Originally posted by maskytrading
What about the "rails", is it stock or did you get it somewhere and "dropped it in"?

the rails are aftermarket made in taiwan drop in siya may dalwang screw sa ilalim ang tatangalin para ilagay yung rail.

maskytrading
01-31-2007, 22:32
Originally posted by Wp.22
the rails are aftermarket made in taiwan drop in siya may dalwang screw sa ilalim ang tatangalin para ilagay yung rail.


Which hobby shop did you get the rails and how much? TYIA for the info, bro. If it fits my replica and if the metal is sturdy enough, I'll mount a china made zos, maybe a 6x 50mm fix power if available at PBD...China-made rifle...China-made accessories i.e.rails and scope...China-made ammo...If you have this combination, in the long run you(China) will win...If it's from China, it must be good!! BTW, it seems that Twin Pines pricing of 7.62X39R ammo is not fixed, in other words, there is a leeway for tawad (english trans.-bargaining). Am inviting BOGs Ak47 owners to a pool and do a group buy of their China ammo...I think we can get it below 20php per piece because the landed cost plus assembly in my guestimate is about 10php* only.

*I was informed that Twin Pines imports the components from China and then rolls it here.

flash1919
01-31-2007, 23:25
sana me ganito dito!
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r185/flash1919/fal_dsa_sa58osw.jpg

or ganito
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r185/flash1919/untitled.jpg

Wp.22
02-01-2007, 00:07
Originally posted by maskytrading
Which hobby shop did you get the rails and how much? TYIA for the info, bro. If it fits my replica and if the metal is sturdy enough, I'll mount a china made zos, maybe a 6x 50mm fix power if available at PBD...China-made rifle...China-made accessories i.e.rails and scope...China-made ammo...If you have this combination, in the long run you(China) will win...If it's from China, it must be good!!

hobby depot in tomas morato sir the last time the price is between 3.5 to 4k for the rail. sturdy naman siya.

Wp.22
02-01-2007, 02:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&NR

maskytrading
02-01-2007, 09:15
Originally posted by Wp.22
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&NR

Good video. Puts the M16 in a better light as far as accuracy is concerned when the range to the target is 200 yards...They should have tried the M4 also, as the barrel is approx. the same length as AK47...Lesson here for AK47 toters...practice more with your weapon although I thought that a Comrade should have been assigned to shoot the AK47 instead. But as far as shooting the enemy behind cover (wall or brush)there is no contest.

Barrel whip? All rifles have that...The handguard(s)of the M16 just covered it, the longer the barrel assuming it is the same diameter and cartridge as the shorter one will have more whip.

chowchow
02-01-2007, 11:19
Have you noticed the guy shooting the AK is jerking the trigger when pulling it.

mtho
02-01-2007, 12:26
fobus make accessories for ak's http://www.commandarms.com/categories.asp?cID=44

eto mas madmi choices ng handguard/rails http://www.commandarms.com/categories.asp?cID=17

maskytrading
02-01-2007, 21:41
Originally posted by chowchow
Have you noticed the guy shooting the AK is jerking the trigger when pulling it.

Reviewed the video...Yup, you're right, the shooter is jerking the trigger of the AK47...No wonder he can't hit the target or was we really aiming at the target?! Methinks this is propaganda material to drum up international sales for Colt/FN.

chowchow
02-02-2007, 00:10
Yeah the video seem to depict a bad representation of the AK. On the contrary my Norinco MAK 90 can group 3 inches at 100 yds on sandbag rest. Not bad for a 16 inch barrel rifle .

darwin25
02-02-2007, 01:03
I do not rely on reviews. I rely on what I know first hand.

OTOH, I will happily have this one as a project gun istead of an AK

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a18/darwin25/M14Carbine.jpg

maskytrading
02-02-2007, 04:59
OT...but within range +

Will go for this after the gunban during the next gunshow this year...And yes it will still be china made

bulm540
02-02-2007, 06:33
Originally posted by chowchow
Have you noticed the guy shooting the AK is jerking the trigger when pulling it.
Aks do not have a good trigger out of the box. Could be just a case of a heavy trigger. .

maskytrading
02-02-2007, 20:34
Originally posted by jasonub

bingo. if you use an m4 in a terrorist area and it gets recovered there, they will conclude "ah americans!"
its your preference. buy and ak here and go to battle. good luck when your ammo gets depleted. even terrorists and criminals here know they should buy m16s and not ak's. [/B]
=============================================================

But it's not only the americans who use M4s...Israelis, Canadians, Japanese, RP, South Korea to name a few...Colt/FN international marketing and sales is quite extensive to put it mildly.

You are correct, if you pinpoint the hinterlands of RP as the war zone, one might run out of 7.62X39 ammo considering that it's a relatively johnny come lately FA in our country... Let's get the AK101 or AK2000 then so that ammo won't be a problem anymore and you still have the "dependability" factor most of the time.

isuzu
02-02-2007, 20:41
Originally posted by maskytrading
=============================================================

But it's not only the americans who use M4s...Israelis, Canadians, Japanese, RP, South Korea to name a few...Colt/FN international marketing and sales is quite extensive to put it mildly.

You are correct, if you pinpoint the hinterlands of RP as the war zone, one might run out of 7.62X39 ammo considering that it's a relatively johnny come lately FA... Let's get the AK101 or AK2000 then so that ammo won't be a problem anymore and you still have the "dependability" factor most of the time.

Canadian Forces use Diemaco ARs www.diemaco.com. They are slightly different from the A2s and M4s. The front sights are round, and not square like the A2s. The front sights are also smaller compared to the A1 front sights. I got to handle their ARs and they're pretty decent.

Sniper Rifles are C7CT and C8CT in 5.56mm; and a the Timberwolf in .338 Lapua which my brother says is a very effective sniping round.

Colt bought Diemaco I believe, in 2005. The company is now named Colt Canada.

chowchow
02-02-2007, 20:57
Ganda ng Canadian colt.









Ma porma lalo na carbine. How about Taiwan, M 16 A2 ba gamit?

kontra
02-02-2007, 21:30
Originally posted by darwin25
I do not rely on reviews. I rely on what I know first hand.

OTOH, I will happily have this one as a project gun istead of an AK

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a18/darwin25/M14Carbine.jpg

im not familiar with the laws about owning a 7.62 rifle. just asking, are civillians allowed to own an M14 based rifle? is the soc16 available in RP? how much? if it is allowed, available and with a reasonable price, i prefer it over the other rifles.

maskytrading
02-02-2007, 22:03
[Originally posted by isuzu
Canadian Forces use Diemaco ARs www.diemaco.com. They are slightly different from the A2s and M4s. The front sights are round, and not square like the A2s. The front sights are also smaller compared to the A1 front sights. I got to handle their ARs and they're pretty decent.
Sniper Rifles are C7CT and C8CT in 5.56mm; and a the Timberwolf in .338 Lapua which my brother says is a very effective sniping round
Colt bought Diemaco I believe, in 2005. The company is now named Colt Canada.

Colt Canada C8A2 and Colt M4 are one and the same. Colt Canada CQB and Colt M4 Commando are also one and the same. They look a little different because of the externals. But I must admit they look pretty as "babies" and very huggable if I may say so. BTW, if Colt M16s Made in US of A are called "Armalites, what should we call those that are made in Can...Diemacos??? or what about those that are made in RP cebu? CD or CP?? What if FN/Colt bought shares of Izhmash Mfg...then we would have Colt AKs with the better accuracy of an M16, portability of an M4 and the reliability of an AK47...Nice to dream, huh...Ultimately, history will prove which is the better FA, but for now IMO, it's anybodys' ballgame

revo
02-02-2007, 22:23
I hate to mention it but the M1A Socom 16 is not an accurate gun.

My definition of accuracy is a gun that hold 1 MOA or better.

To get real accuracy out an M14/M1A platform, you have to purchase at least a National Match version - match barrel standard length, match gas system, double match receiver and a bedded stock.

A National Match M1A will run you $1,850 at least. You can get that same level of accuracy with an AR right around $1,200 or a bit cheaper.

Ganun talaga.

If you want a practical sub-MOA gun, you have to go to a bolt action.

maskytrading
02-02-2007, 22:28
Originally posted by kontra
im not familiar with the laws about owning a 7.62 rifle. just asking, are civillians allowed to own an M14 based rifle? is the soc16 available in RP? how much? if it is allowed, available and with a reasonable price, i prefer it over the other rifles.

Civilians are allowed to possess M14s in RP provided your firearm license application is approved by CPNP(Chief-Phil.Nat'l Police). I haven't seen any AFAD member display one(Springfield Socom 16) yet to-date but Twin Pines Inc., sells China-made M14s at 40K excluding fees but it's out-of-stock now. "Just wait till the ban guns is over in July" one employee confided to me last week.

jasonub
02-02-2007, 22:44
edit

maskytrading
02-02-2007, 23:54
Originally posted by jasonub
if i see it i can hit it with an m16. with the m16 i had i can put 3 shots inside an inch at 50 meters prone with iron sights repeatable. With my buddy's AR sniper variant i can put all 3 in the 10 ring at the same distance repeatable.

someone was selling me an ak for 30t with 60 rounds a few years ago. After shooting those bullets then what? use it as a reliable club?

not to mention these things i have are downright beautiful. never did like ugly guns and girls. I like reliable,accurate, and beautiful guns. goes with women too.

For me the ak looks uggglyyyy [/B]


For the first paragraph above...I will admit that you are a good shot
and that the m16 you are using is accurate and that your friends "AR variant" is also as accurate...but what if you and your M16 are neck deep in mud or sand or water and prone at that...do you think you can still hit a 50 meter target who is behind cover be it wood/trees or bricks/walls, concealed behind heavy brush/cogon/shrubs and moving? My answer is still...Yes, if your M16 goes bang,bang,bang! But what if it goes bang, click or worse click, click? Whoa!! Time out pls. My weapons jammed, clean it again and then let's resume. My point is
sometimes "quite accurate or lesser accuracy" with reliability is as good "very accurate" but with lesser dependability.

For the 2nd paragraph above...That's correct, several years ago...7.62X39 ammo was not plentiful and even now AFAIK only Twin Pines carries it although if you want to buy in the thousands, they can accomodate you with a 20% discount at least..."Use it as a reliable club" you said...You forget the bayonet...I watched this movie about soldiers in Iraq who were ambushed while on patrol and ran out of 5.56Ammo...what saved them were their bayonets...And I can't remember the soldiers using their m16s as "baseball bats" though.

For the 3rd paragraph...Beautiful women, ahhh...This Filipino judge in an international beauty pageant commented this about the winner: She is subterranean

Last paragraph...I agree with you that an M4 looks better and more lovable...that's why we call it "baby". The AK47 is like Charles Bronson...ugly but macho

cebuboy
02-03-2007, 00:43
Originally posted by flash1919
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm
it is on this site that shows that the m193 ammo has a velocity of 945 m/s and an effective range of 460 m on an m16-a1, while the m855 has a velocity of 975 m/s and an effective range of 550 m on an m16-a2.

uhhmm i think he is wrong there in stating that the m855 is faster than the m193. please check out the links below... and do check ammo-oracle.com, lots of valuable info there.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/rifleperformance.msnw

jasonub
02-03-2007, 01:43
deleted

flash1919
02-03-2007, 04:18
Originally posted by cebuboy
uhhmm i think he is wrong there in stating that the m855 is faster than the m193. please check out the links below... and do check ammo-oracle.com, lots of valuable info there.

http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/rifleperformance.msnw

at leased he was right that the m855 ammo has a greater range;)

bulm540
02-03-2007, 07:46
Originally posted by maskytrading
=============================================================

But it's not only the americans who use M4s...Israelis, Canadians, Japanese, RP, South Korea to name a few...Colt/FN international marketing and sales is quite extensive to put it mildly.

You are correct, if you pinpoint the hinterlands of RP as the war zone, one might run out of 7.62X39 ammo considering that it's a relatively johnny come lately FA in our country... Let's get the AK101 or AK2000 then so that ammo won't be a problem anymore and you still have the "dependability" factor most of the time.
Israeli's used the M4. The galil have been reverted to support personnel.

bulm540
02-03-2007, 07:47
Originally posted by jasonub
its the shooter not the rifle or pistol. if you cant shoot squat even a tank, rocket, missle, mortar, law, it wont do you good.

if i see it i can hit it with an m16. with the m16 i had i can put 3 shots inside an inch at 50 meters prone with iron sights repeatable. With my buddy's AR sniper variant i can put all 3 in the 10 ring at the same distance repeatable.

someone was selling me an ak for 30t with 60 rounds a few years ago. After shooting those bullets then what? use it as a reliable club?

bottom line, for me is that only accurate/reliable guns are interesting. if im offered a rifle/pistol thats reliable but has "acceptable accuracy" i wont buy it.

For rifles/assult rifles ill only buy one thats moa or sub moa accuate- got an m16 A2.
- got an anschutz supermatch that groups less than .2" at 50 meters

for pistols it should group within an inch and a half at 25 meters
-got my infinity pistol that with stronhand lead heads it groups less than an inch at 25 meters. using generic competition ammo it groups 1.5

-and the lda i have also groups around 1.5 at 25 meters with the ammo i currently use.

All are very reliable and very accurate

not to mention these things i have are downright beautiful. never did like ugly guns and girls. I like reliable,accurate, and beautiful guns. goes with women too.

For me the ak looks uggglyyyy
Ditto!!!! My Bushy 16 have been reliable since day 1. Damn accurate too.

cebuboy
02-03-2007, 11:01
Originally posted by flash1919
at leased he was right that the m855 ammo has a greater range;)

hehe yup, if you want to punch holes thru a kevlar helmet, the m855 has a greater range:) putting down people is another story.

maskytrading
02-04-2007, 08:03
I was looking for the AK2000 specs in AK websites but couldn't find any; is it(AK2000 that's being sold by WSC) the same as AK101?

kontra
02-04-2007, 21:34
Originally posted by maskytrading
Civilians are allowed to possess M14s in RP provided your firearm license application is approved by CPNP(Chief-Phil.Nat'l Police). I haven't seen any AFAD member display one(Springfield Socom 16) yet to-date but Twin Pines Inc., sells China-made M14s at 40K excluding fees but it's out-of-stock now. "Just wait till the ban guns is over in July" one employee confided to me last week.

i really want to have an m14, its the licensing part that prevents me from buying one. how about renewals? will it need to be singed by the CPNP? ive been asking twin pines, always out of stock

maskytrading
02-04-2007, 22:32
Originally posted by kontra
i really want to have an m14, its the licensing part that prevents me from buying one. how about renewals? will it need to be singed by the CPNP? ive been asking twin pines, always out of stock

It's really a question of timing...the best time is during gun shows and the worst is during "ban guns" like now...If your HP fa is duly licensed, I don't see any reason why it won't be renewed or maybe not if there's are pending criminal cases against the owner...As mentioned in my last post, an employee of Twin Pines confided that M14s will be in-stock after the gun ban and available at the next gun show.

bulm540
02-05-2007, 20:42
Originally posted by bulm540
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darwin25
[B]No. 4

Since the M16's recoil spring is located in the butt stock, the gun is immdeiately inoperable. I have seen so many M16's with damaged butt stock held together only by some adhesive (epoxy??).
????The butt stock has the extension tube ( buffer tube) made of high grade aluminum. Unless you bend it or cut it off the rifle should be operable.

Hello,
The rifles are required to pass a drop test of three feet as that is the average height they are carried at. Although it is possible to break the stock itself from a higher height it would require a lot of force to bend or break the extension tube to render the firearm inoperable such as running it over with a vehicle.
Thank you,

Jim Eden
Technical Support
Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC
Office: 1-800-883-6229 ext. 277
Fax: 207-892-8068

darwin25
02-05-2007, 20:51
Oh I see. My comrade fell at the same height. We were traversing a rocky river and he stumbled bringing his body on top of the gun which got wedged on the rocks.

Thanks for the info:)

maskytrading
02-05-2007, 21:17
With or without the stock that broke apart, an ak47 will still go bang, bang...that's reliability...or maybe a better design comparatively on the part of an AK with regards to the recoil unit

saki1611
02-06-2007, 05:06
m4 or ak47?

for urban use i prefer the m4, especially in cqb. in rural area of course ak47, especially in wide area. though it's weight has to be considered when on patrol mission, ak47 is quite heavy.

nitrox920
02-06-2007, 07:17
for Philippine countryside setting

Fishpond an M16 - fishpond has wide clearing area (ponds) one can see a bad guy 100-200 meter away. accurate and light to carry

Farmland
vegetable farms :broccoli: - an AK
coconut/ mango farm- AK

sugarcane farms - 0-4 months old canes an M16
5-12 months old canes an AK

saki1611
02-06-2007, 08:22
maybe this thread will give some answers:

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=651880

mtho
02-06-2007, 10:32
nitrox,
so ibig mo sabihin get both

bulm540
02-06-2007, 17:40
Originally posted by darwin25
Oh I see. My comrade fell at the same height. We were traversing a rocky river and he stumbled bringing his body on top of the gun which got wedged on the rocks.

Thanks for the info:)
No problem I am glad your Buddy did not have an AD , it would have been ugly.

darwin25
02-06-2007, 19:28
.

maskytrading
02-06-2007, 20:42
Originally posted by saki1611
m4 or ak47?
for urban use i prefer the m4, especially in cqb. in rural area of course ak47, especially in wide area. though it's weight has to be considered when on patrol mission, ak47 is quite heavy.

For me, I prefer the AK47 in CQBs or within 100 yards or within the farmhouse perimeter with 123gr.SP Federal Power Shok ammo. If it's farther than 100 yards, I prefer scoped M14s,M16s and M4s in that order...But on patrol or recon an M16 with M203 GL is my choice

chowchow
02-06-2007, 21:40
Originally posted by nitrox920
for Philippine countryside setting

Fishpond an M16 - fishpond has wide clearing area (ponds) one can see a bad guy 100-200 meter away. accurate and light to carry

Farmland
vegetable farms :broccoli: - an AK
coconut/ mango farm- AK

sugarcane farms - 0-4 months old canes an M16
5-12 months old canes an AK

Well said, get both.

saki1611
02-06-2007, 21:44
of course if you have funds get both!!! but if money is an issue, ar15 will do.

M4Armani
02-07-2007, 03:30
Here in the Philippines, in any environment I'll pick the AR, why? it's reliable, accurate, versatile, plenty of ammo, magazines and spare parts to go around with.

flash1919
02-07-2007, 05:58
Originally posted by cebuboy
hehe yup, if you want to punch holes thru a kevlar helmet, the m855 has a greater range:) putting down people is another story.

remember the news last month about the so called "black killer". i've heared it was an m855 ammo that hit him. but it came from a minimi! hehe :thumbsup:

maskytrading
02-07-2007, 07:43
For those who like the AK47, follow the link:
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm

eclipse1
02-07-2007, 16:15
ak47

http://www.break.com/index/smokin_hot_barrel.html

bulm540
02-07-2007, 22:14
Originally posted by maskytrading
For those who like the AK47, follow the link:
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Hate_the_AR15.htm
everybody is entitled to his own little opinion.

maskytrading
02-07-2007, 22:33
Originally posted by eclipse1
ak47
http://www.break.com/index/smokin_hot_barrel.html

That's reliability, IMO...maybe there are websites where they will show Armalites(M16s/M4s) not on fire but exploding...And then I'll say "My AK so HOOOOT!!!, but your "Baby" is DYNAMITE!!!

vega
02-08-2007, 06:33
Originally posted by maskytrading
That's reliability, IMO...maybe there are websites where they will show Armalites(M16s/M4s) not on fire but exploding...And then I'll say "My AK so HOOOOT!!!, but your "Baby" is DYNAMITE!!!
Pic only.

http://www.quarterbore.com/images/kaboom012.jpg

cebuboy
02-08-2007, 06:57
i think i will go to the ak, have not heard of it carrying a diseas. the ar, comes with brd and it is really bad :supergrin:

saki1611
02-08-2007, 07:34
i like this.... :supergrin:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j130/saki1611/pinkm42.jpg

:hearts: :hearts: :hearts:

bulm540
02-08-2007, 08:09
Originally posted by eclipse1
ak47

http://www.break.com/index/smokin_hot_barrel.html
So the rumor is true , they ( the russians) do mix gasoline in their propellant:rofl:

maskytrading
02-08-2007, 09:03
Originally posted by vega
Pic only.
http://www.quarterbore.com/images/kaboom012.jpg

During the last gunshow in Nov. 2006, at the AFP booth, they were showing some videos of military marksmanship training when an M16 exploded in hands of a female trainee...she was lucky that she escaped with only minor injuries to her left hand. The gathered parts looked just like your pic post... Although a KB is not an M16s monopoly, nevertheless, it is a spectre that always lurks at the back of your mind when you "play hard" with it.

chowchow
02-08-2007, 09:32
Whoa, a dynamited M16 my first to see one.

Sweater
02-10-2007, 22:57
I got them both , just to make sure.SAIGA AK47 and Bushmaster Carbon 15.http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s317/sweater6625/2-15.jpg

jasonub
02-11-2007, 06:05
that rifle was shot with ammmo that has been made for the npa, etc. In places of encounter, soldiers leave it behind so when it was recovered by the enemy it will explode the rifle.

Problem is some forgot to tell others who pick them up and shoot them in their rifles. notice that none of the shooters did get an injury from the blast.

Remember if it shoots reliably but inaccurately, you will not hit your intended target. And as our marine snipers would say, one shot one kill. They need only 1 bullet.

nitrox920
02-11-2007, 08:35
get both....

this year an AR and then two -three years from now a AK or vice versa...its worth the trip.

this is the philippines guys...alot of external factors at hand. aside from the criminal,communist and muslim terrorist..we are visited by typhoon, floods (natural calamities) every year....even if you live in the urban or the rural area.. survival is the answer. a handgun is okay but a rifle is needed... Our government cant look after us all the time..we have to help them by being ARMED and protect our community.

revo
02-11-2007, 10:19
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

- Sun Tzu

chowchow
02-11-2007, 19:23
Holds true even in today's battlefield.

darwin25
02-11-2007, 19:34
Originally posted by jasonub


Remember if it shoots reliably but inaccurately, you will not hit your intended target. And as our marine snipers would say, one shot one kill. They need only 1 bullet.

How accurate do you need your rifle to be? At what range do you expect to do much of the shooting?

Ok here I think would be the context of the use of rifles in the local setting. Lets be realistic but unless there will be a war all these discussion is just moot and academic.

Civil war: After a few months of urban warfare, it will go mostly guerilla warfare. In the jungle environments, how far will you expect your targets to be?

Foreign Invasion? Say China since its the most likely suspect for most of us here. Then ammo and parts will not likely be a problem. In fact it makes perfect sense to use what your enemy uses. Lets say we do not get outside help to repel the invaders, how long do we expect before our supply of NATO standard ammo drops? Again, this mostly will be guerilla warfare.

maskytrading
02-11-2007, 22:39
I'm wondering how inaccurate an AK47 is? At what range can it fail to hit(miss) an 8 inch dia. target assuming that the shooter is an expert marksman...100...200...300 yards? If the shooter hits the said target at 100 and 200 yards distance, the 16 inch plus barreled AK47 is accurate enough...300 yards? it's too far IMO to use a l6 incher be it scoped or open sighted...In a tropical jungle hide and seek scenario, a 300 yard much less 200 yard clearing is improbable. Using the AK47 scoped or open sighted at ranges above 200 yards and then missing the target and then calling the carbine; BTW a rifle must have at least 20 inches in barrel length to be called a rifle while a carbine has shorter barrel length whether 14 or 16 or 18 inches to be designated as such; inaccurate is "plain old bias". If the AK47 can hit the 8 in. target at 200 yds,...the biased will always say "it did not group at 2 inches"

jasonub
02-11-2007, 23:01
edit

chowchow
02-11-2007, 23:57
The Ruskies had had great success with mass attack in WW2, swarming hordes of troops with PPsH overwhelming the Wermacht. The AK 47 was just perfect bec it fires a .30 cal round , more range and knockdown power. And it is still a winner in today's battlefieldmay it be the sands of Afghanistan, jungles of SE asia and Africa.

maskytrading
02-12-2007, 00:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by darwin25
How accurate do you need your rifle to be? At what range do you expect to do much of the shooting?

================================================
Originally posted by jasonub
[B]You dont know, i dont know so the answer is as accurate as it can be. the better accuracy, the better for me and for others who can shoot and even others who cant shoot(an accurate rifle will be better for everyone on his hands). The black rifle has been here since vietnam. It is still here so it seems that its reliable enough for the US Armed forces, Israel Armed forces and Phil armed forces, etc etc. ]
=================================================

As we all know,fire fight engagements are all within rifle range of 500 yards, after that it's "snipers alley"...If you have noticed, the practice now is to arm a platoon with an assortment of carbines/assault and sniper rifles/LMGs/GLs...IMO as to a tropical jungle setting the best combo would be the ff:(for a platoon of 37 combatants)
A. 15 with M21s (you can always take down the scope)(0 to 500yds)
B. 15 AK47s/M4 SOPMOD/SOCOM16(0 to 200yds)
C. 3 LMGs with M60s(0 to 300yds)
D. 3 AR30M338L for ranges ( 500 to 800yds.)
E. 1? for the leader...which ammo group does he want to belong to aside from his .45ACP? 7.62Ns or 7.62Rs/.223Ns

With the above combination, accuracy and reliability is amply covered.And of course, the hand grenades/GLs and bazookas included

maskytrading
02-12-2007, 00:13
Originally posted by chowchow
The Ruskies had had great success with mass attack in WW2, swarming hordes of troops with PPsH overwhelming the Wermacht. The AK 47 was just perfect bec it fires a .30 cal round , more range and knockdown power. And it is still a winner in today's battlefieldmay it be the sands of Afghanistan, jungles of SE asia and Africa.

The AK47 was non-existent yet in 1940-45 as Michael was still in the hospital recuperating...The AK as it was officially designated (BTW not as the AK47)was adopted in 1949 by Stalins' Red Army...I agree with you the AK47 has more KD because it's .30 caliber vs. 5.56mm but more range???No, I don't because it has only 16 inch of barrel which is the same as an M4 Carbine...for longer range you need at least 22 inches of barrel... And as a winner in today's battlefield, Ah, therein lies the irony of a more reliable weapon the AK47...Soldiers with the M4s(better accuracy) are the ones winning...OR Maybe it's the training?

jasonub
02-12-2007, 01:26
Its the training plus the fact that if they get tired, they can always call in an air strike.

IIRC, Sadamm's Son was hit by at least 5 AT-4s- anti tank weapons

which destroyed all the weapons inside the apartment.:thumbsup: none of them will be reliable or accurate anymore whether their M16s or AKs

bulm540
02-12-2007, 19:16
Ditto, they fired at least 5 TOWs in there.

maskytrading
02-12-2007, 20:20
ak47
http://www.break.com/index/smokin_hot_barrel.html

Reviewed the video...No wonder the AK47s are always pictured as inaccurate...This video(above url)and a lot of other videos always show an AK47 being fired from the hip and in Full Auto at that. With this position, you'll always hit the ground and make a lot of holes in the air but the target will be "missed"...but then you can always say "Hindi tinamaan, pero nagkakandarapa sa putik sa pagtago!"*

*English Trans.-Missed but the target stumbling in mud or all over the place just to hide.

isuzu
02-12-2007, 21:15
Originally posted by maskytrading
During the last gunshow in Nov. 2006, at the AFP booth, they were showing some videos of military marksmanship training when an M16 exploded in hands of a female trainee...she was lucky that she escaped with only minor injuries to her left hand. The gathered parts looked just like your pic post... Although a KB is not an M16s monopoly, nevertheless, it is a spectre that always lurks at the back of your mind when you "play hard" with it.

Looks like demolition ammo destroyed the gun in the picture. That is why it's now a policy of the AFP that ALL recovered ammo from encounter sites, whether it is theirs or the enemy's, is destroyed. No exceptions.

Another culprit is build-up in the chamber. The ammo can't fully seat in the chamber, causing the bolt not to fully engage.

bulm540
02-12-2007, 21:45
One question, If you buy an AK 47 sa pinas how could you become proficient with it if ammo is scarce?

darwin25
02-12-2007, 23:11
Not anymore. Medyo may supply na din kasi unti-unti na nagkakaroon na ng demand. But the best bet right now is the AK2000 chambered for 5.56mm NATO. These guns (AK2000) are selling like hotcakes sa mga local government units especially in the provinces.

cebuboy
02-13-2007, 05:24
Originally posted by bulm540
One question, If you buy an AK 47 sa pinas how could you become proficient with it if ammo is scarce?

Ammo is not as scarce anymore, its just a bit on the expensive side :)

cebuboy
02-13-2007, 05:34
The demo ammo is kind of a myth which started way back during the vietnam war:) anyway, one can be made by loading the cartridge full of N310 pistol powder.

known kb's here were caused by firing out of battery with a certain recoil reducing device installed.


Originally posted by isuzu
Looks like demolition ammo destroyed the gun in the picture. That is why it's now a policy of the AFP that ALL recovered ammo from encounter sites, whether it is theirs or the enemy's, is destroyed. No exceptions.

Another culprit is build-up in the chamber. The ammo can't fully seat in the chamber, causing the bolt not to fully engage.

jasonub
02-13-2007, 05:50
Edited as requested by a friend


Cebu boy,

they dont use n310. something else to blow it up and hopefully the shooter. But they found out that the shooter usually just gets scratched with the demo ammo shot in a 16.

cebuboy
02-13-2007, 07:39
jasonub,

I have heard stories about demolition ammo, some say C4 is used?? but I really dont know. Army regulars in my area dont seem to know much about them. Maybe they are the domain of those spec-ops guys:)

Compressed loads of fast burning powder do blow up guns:)

By observing the photo, if it was demo ammo used, the bbl would have split open as the failure is caused by too much pressure in the bbl chamber. It looks like it fired out of battery as the bbl is still intact. I'm no expert here so if anybody got observations/ideas/opinion lets hear it:)

maskytrading
02-13-2007, 08:41
During the Vietnam War wherein the M16 was hastily fielded, there were a lot of KBs but these incidents were kept under wraps so as not to discourage users, the US GI. Several factors conributed to KBs namely: a different(dirtier) powder was used for the ammo circulated/distributed to the soldiers, while during testing before the AR15 was officially adopted as the M16 a cleaner powder was used; the soldiers were lacking in training as to maintaining their new black rifle...And then combine these factors with heavy use, jungle(humidity and rain) and rice fields(mud and water)and the result was an occasional KB here and there. But all in all, the main result is ignition out of battery and sometimes a "cook off" wherein a cartridge is in the very hot chamber after protracted fire fights and a lull ensues...the GI has his mind elsewhere and suddenly KaBoom...blown receivers, mag and well but the chamber is almost always intact...because it is very thick and the explosion is channeled at the back and down...That was more than 40 years ago...the blown Armalites I've seen are mostly M16s with triangular hand guard which means they are either M16 or M16A1..If A2s, A3s, A4s, Babys, Diemacos still have this problem, then its still the same M16 used in Vietnam, maybe more accurate, more handsome but as Inday Badiday used to say "Careful"

royal glockster
02-13-2007, 09:48
Pasingtabi po, i observed this thread is no longer a survey but a debate or a series of justifications that a particular rifle is superior to the other...This is a never ending story mga bro!!

I suggest that we just simply tally who in favor of AK and those who are in favor of m16, period..:supergrin: peace bro!!

bulm540
02-13-2007, 18:34
Originally posted by darwin25
Not anymore. Medyo may supply na din kasi unti-unti na nagkakaroon na ng demand. But the best bet right now is the AK2000 chambered for 5.56mm NATO. These guns (AK2000) are selling like hotcakes sa mga local government units especially in the provinces.

With regards to military units leaving double charged ammo in the scene of the encounter for rebels to pick up is highly improbable.

1. almost all of chance encounters become running gunbattles. Do you really expect rebel units to return to the scene of the encounter to pick up / recover discarded or loose ammo? That is kuwentong kutsero at best.

2. During rebel ambuscades. Do you really think that soldiers being shot at and sniped like it was a turkey shoot got time to lay "discarded" double-charged ammo for insurgents, terrorists or whatever to pick up later?
That's good to know.

darwin25
02-13-2007, 19:03
Originally posted by cebuboy

I have heard stories about demolition ammo, some say C4 is used?? but I really dont know. Army regulars in my area dont seem to know much about them. Maybe they are the domain of those spec-ops guys:)


The theory of using demolition ammo is sound. But the method for these demolition ammo to reach their intended shooters is not. It would much more realistic if military intels in known insurgent areaa use their assets in some ways to have these demolition ammo reach known insurgent supporters whom in turn will make sure that these ammo reach their intended "beneficiaries". But to leave these demoltion ammo in scenes of encounter? FACT: Rebel units and supporters do not return to scenes of encounter for a very, very long time. The reason is all too obvious.

The reason why this government and the military and the police is not winning the war against insurgency is that they severely UNDERESTIMATE their enemy. This theory of using demolition ammo is a classic case of that. We assume that the enemy is too stupid to return to scenes of encounter to scavenge whatever useful materielle they can find. In case we forget, the largest amount of insurgent materials, arms and ammo came from military sales.

MERCMADE
02-13-2007, 19:33
I have fired an ak the other week and wwooow is it a kicker, "
my pad of the shoulder feel" is it kicks just a little lesser than a pump shotgun.uga balikat ko, the m 16s are almost recoiless, it kicks soft.

M16 over ak ako.

maskytrading
02-13-2007, 20:01
Originally posted by royal glockster
Pasingtabi po, i observed this thread is no longer a survey but a debate or a series of justifications that a particular rifle is superior to the other...This is a never ending story mga bro!!
I suggest that we just simply tally who in favor of AK and those who are in favor of m16, period..:supergrin: peace bro!!

As the thread starter, I wanted this to be a survey ala election type (for Senator- Michael K or Baby S. (that's S for Stoner)but it seems it has evolved into just what you said a "never ending story" on who is the better candidate and more...however, I think a discussion or a debate if you may call it that is much better way of airing our preferences or opinions than just saying "I vote Michael or Baby"...Who knows bro, along the way some fans of Baby might go to Michaels' side or vice versa...Then we start the "never ending story" again but this time let's call it "Why I defected to the East/West"

darwin25
02-13-2007, 20:10
mga bro,

this forum kung mapapansin nyo walang mga Item A vs Item B stuff. And I think the original members of this forum intentionally made it that way. This is the first one lang. And as you may already know. Walang katapusan ang mga ganitong thread. Especially kung ang mga nagbibigay ng justificaions for their preferrence has limited knowledge and experience on the item that they prefer. Especially in this case that the debate is all about combat rifles when very few among us has actual experience in using them in combat. It doesnt give credibility to our preference.

bulm540
02-13-2007, 20:55
But I have.... I shoot 3 gun matches here from time to time ( just Kidding). My AR has not failed me in any 3 gun matches that I have shot. For me I choose an AR 15 / M 16 over the AK.

maskytrading
02-13-2007, 21:35
Originally posted by darwin25
mga bro, this forum kung mapapansin nyo walang mga Item A vs Item B stuff. And I think the original members of this forum intentionally made it that way. This is the first one lang. And as you may already know. Walang katapusan ang mga ganitong thread. Especially kung ang mga nagbibigay ng justificaions for their preferrence has limited knowledge and experience on the item that they prefer. Especially in this case that the debate is all about combat rifles when very few among us has actual experience in using them in combat. It doesnt give credibility to our preference.

When this thread started there were several conditions/situations (a to e)stipulated why one would choose a Baby or AK47...however, along the way, as the thread starter, I found that the conditions were to "what if" scenarios considering that BOG members/users are mostly
civilians, myself included and thats why I said in one of my posts that, lets just choose between a Baby or AK47 and explain why...And yes, this is a "never ending story" as I mentioned in my post previous to this...but you see the "Babys" or Armalites evolve; improvements on ergonomics, different caliber, gas operation systems, etc...and so do AKs. In effect, there is still a lot to discuss or debate about which weapon is superior...just like history there is always something to talk about or comment on or just give a plain opinion.
And, your statement saying "combat rifles when very few among us has actual experience in using them in combat. It doesnt give credibility to our preference.",With due respect, I beg to disagree...speaking for myself... yes, I do not have any combat experience nor do I want any...my only experience with both are all in shooting ranges which is nowhere near a "combat zone scenario i.e.jungle/desert/cogonal/paddies" but what I'm writing down as my posts, are my understanding of several articles if not hundreds I've read and re-read on the matter that were written by those who experienced first hand what combat is all about and how each weapon fared. A person talking from his personal experience using either weapon in combat is of course very valid...but to discuss something which has never happened to me but only read and culled from many experiences about the matter is also, IMO, valid too. We learn from our own experience but we learn from others, too.

bulm540
02-13-2007, 21:44
Here you go http://youtube.com/watch?v=inhl0fbjcdk&mode=related&search=

maskytrading
02-14-2007, 21:54
Here are some observations from a US Marine in Iraq as he relates it to his Dad

REPORT FROM A MARINE IN IRAQ
War on Terror, Iraq, USMC, Weapons Systems, AK47, .45 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, 5.56mm, M243 SAW, M9 Beretta, M240 Machine Gun, M2 .50 cal Machine Gun, Barrett .50 Rifle, M-14 Rifle, M-16 Assault Rifle, M-24 Rifle

Posted on FREE REPUBLIC by Infantry Marine, who asks that it be passed along:

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in early ‘06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at “Camp Blue Diamond” in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a bird’s eye view’s opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it’s lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the Picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that’s fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts ‘em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. “Ma deuce” is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts them in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there.

Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put ‘em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45’s are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Frequently used to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) & barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700’s. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock’s record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the BS about the “old” body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED’s was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn’t make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We’ve all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire’s, and the troops love ‘em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it. I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!! With all our technology, it’s the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47’s . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like ****. Undisciplined “spray and pray” type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let’s just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable & as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan’s area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You’re not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated “shape charges” (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED’s are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That’s why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The Soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan’s NCO’s lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage “inside the wire”. Jordan’s base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and “Google earth” for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly “foreigners”, non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the “rat line” which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we’ve been hitting hard for the last few months. Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in “sacrifice squads”. Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shi’a have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govts, the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80’s. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing AKs and RPGs directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan’s base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that’s the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo’s (Allah’s Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast movers, mostly Marine F-18’s, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all. The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why we’re seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber s***.

The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.). The first thing our guys are told is “don’t get captured”. They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don’t give a **** about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqis are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren’t worth a s***. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi’s use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi’s were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi’s are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see **** like “Are we losing in Iraq” on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren’t enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just can’t stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).

Anyway guys, that’s it, hope you found it interesting, I sure did.

3kings
02-15-2007, 04:04
this very long thread made me think...

what the heck...

get them both...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/a3kings/myGuns/Image372.jpg
(sorry pix was quite hazy, nanginginig sa excitement)

both beautiful dont u agree?

G19c,PH
02-15-2007, 04:20
Originally posted by 3kings
this very long thread made me think...

what the heck...

get them both...

both beautiful dont u agree?


Very beautiful...ulit uli take 2...:thumbsup:

maskytrading
02-15-2007, 04:42
Originally posted by 3kings
this very long thread made me think...what the heck...
get them both...both beautiful dont u agree?

Is that already the tri-rail handguard you got Twin Pines? I notice you have an AK2000...BTW, what is the diff./similarity between an AK2000 and an AK 101?...Both beautiful? Nope, the Baby is but the AK is ugly but macho. My preference is of course an AK although I still need to get one(AK2000 in 5.56Nato) from WSC to pair with my AK47 type 56 7.62R from TP.

3kings
02-15-2007, 05:05
Originally posted by maskytrading
Is that already the tri-rail handguard you got Twin Pines? I notice you have an AK2000...BTW, what is the diff./similarity between an AK2000 and an AK 101?...Both beautiful? Nope, the Baby is but the AK is ugly but macho. My preference is of course an AK although I still need to get one(AK2000 in 5.56Nato) from WSC to pair with my AK47 type 56 7.62R from TP.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/a3kings/myGuns/Image370.jpg

that's the rail i got from twinpines. i noticed that you can put accessories on all side - so its quadrail, but the rail on the sides is not as long as the one on top and bottom

macho is the right term for this ak.
im not sure if the difference betweenthe ak2k and ak101 is the mfg. i thik both uses 5.56ammo. but i maybe wrong better ask deenoh.

maskytrading
02-15-2007, 05:25
Originally posted by 3kings
[IMG]that's the rail i got from twinpines. i noticed that you can put accessories on all side - so its quadrail, but the rail on the sides is not as long as the one on top and bottom
macho is the right term for this ak.
im not sure if the difference betweenthe ak2k and ak101 is the mfg. i thik both uses 5.56ammo. but i maybe wrong better ask deenoh.

Next week, I'll pass by WSC and clear matters with Deenoh...But if I may ask...Which do you like more? And which is better in terms over-all handling i.e. reliability and accuracy? I've shot an M16A1 scoped and an open sighted AK47 at 25 meters offhand at PBDionisio range and it is very easy to make "head shots" in semi-auto and they recoil about the same to me. Next time, I'll do some grouping tests but in the meantime the "toys" are for visuals only.

3kings
02-15-2007, 05:44
Originally posted by maskytrading
Next week, I'll pass by WSC and clear matters with Deenoh...But if I may ask...Which do you like more? And which is better in terms over-all handling i.e. reliability and accuracy? I've shot an M16A1 scoped and an open sighted AK47 at 25 meters offhand at PBDionisio range and it is very easy to make "head shots" in semi-auto and they recoil about the same to me. Next time, I'll do some grouping tests but in the meantime the "toys" are for visuals only.

which one i like more?

hard question to answer bro.

i like the m4s coz its light, nice to shoot and dress up.

i like the ak2000 for its less recoil than m4 (thats my opinion sir)plus it uses 5.56 plus it shoots good in 15-25m range

so i guess i like them both. they surely look good in display inside my vault till after elections . i will probably play/compete with the std m4 or ak and just brag about my infant. :shocked: ;)

chowchow
02-15-2007, 10:27
Boss , maganda yang AK 2000 mo. Puede ba close up?

bulm540
02-15-2007, 13:46
Here you go, AK reliability http://youtube.com/watch?v=645TjlAsb-s

bulm540
02-15-2007, 16:38
ANd the M 16/ M4 and SDM-R and its variants in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voGasciD2EI

jasonub
02-15-2007, 18:04
Originally posted by bulm540
ANd the M 16/ M4 and SDM-R and its variants in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voGasciD2EI

its useless bro, even with the kills and the return fire which dint hit them, your choice of rifle is "defective" in this thread no matter what

darwin25
02-15-2007, 19:50
Originally posted by jasonub
its useless bro, even with the kills and the return fire which dint hit them, your choice of rifle is "defective" in this thread no matter what

Why take offense? Our choice of rifle is "defective" din naman para sa iyo no matter what.

Mas maganda siguro kung parehas ang metrics. Most of AK users kasi is untrained as opposed to the users of the AR variants. Put the AR in the hands of an untrained combatant and I dont think the outcome would be any different if the he was using an AK.

jasonub
02-15-2007, 20:46
:upeyes:
















Bul540,

did they say in the video 600 or 800 meters? even trained people with ak cant hit a tank sized target at that range. They mentioned shooting at moving targets with their m4's? damn there good if they hit those too :thumbsup:

maskytrading
02-15-2007, 20:57
It is very clear to me now...training is the decisive factor in the handling and operations of the weapon of choice...however, it is also as plain as daylight that US troops are well trained while the "terrorists" for want of a better word are poorly trained if not trained at all in the basics of marksmanship. With that premise in hand, it is a "no brainer" why the poorly trained "jihad terrorists" as opposed to "terrorist mercenaries" would favor the AK47...just give them an AK47 and instruct them to point towards the target and shoot, how to put bullets in and change magazines and last but not least,brag that this weapon needs no cleaning at all while the "infidels" M16s and all its variants have to cleaned everytime.

And the lack of training of the "jihad terrorists" gave me an insight...What if the US Armed Forces gathered as much as possible all the AKs in Iraq and the scatter the same amount at least or more of M16s and all its variants? The point is to make a dent in the percentage of AKs being used by "jihad terrorists"...in effect M16s and all its variants become the dominant weapon of "jihad terrorists"... I guarantee you that there will be more casualties on the side of JTangos...Why? Figure it out.

darwin25
02-15-2007, 21:02
.

maskytrading
02-15-2007, 21:11
At 600 to 800 meters an open sighted AK47 will be hard put to hit a tank sized target even if trained...Yes, I will agree it is hard to hit the tank size target but I don't think an AK47 trained person would shoot at the target or waste ammo at that distance.

Again 600 to 800 meters using the M4s and moving targets at that! They(US soldiers)must be really excellent marksmen if they can hit at that distance...But to use an M4 even if scoped IMO, that's just plain old "trigger happy"

A video showing the performance or non-performance of either weapon is just that...one video. It is not conclusive for either weapons' inherent reliability or accuracy.

jasonub
02-15-2007, 22:46
:upeyes:

m4s are not designed to shoot as far as 400 meters:supergrin:

revo
02-15-2007, 23:22
jasonub,

Google is your friend.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m4/m4-study-guide.shtml

Describe the ranges for the M4 Rifle.

Maximum Range - 3,600 meters
Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 500 meters
Max Effective Range for an Area Target - 600 meters

9MX
02-16-2007, 00:22
Originally posted by jasonub
:upeyes:

m4s are not designed to shoot as far as 400 meters:supergrin:

uy may tinamaan sa mall ninja signature ko hahahha:animlol: How about a competition? Armscor march 10, clubshoot. Pag naka 90% ka on my score ill give you 5000 pesos

hey mallrat:supergrin:

easy easy..tayo na lang, pag tinalo mo ako, pay me 5K:tongueout:

darwin25
02-16-2007, 00:54
.

batangueno
02-16-2007, 01:21
Ok, just agree to disagree with the rifle of your choice tapos tigilan na yan.

darwin25
02-16-2007, 01:29
.

jasonub
02-16-2007, 06:21
edit

Django
02-16-2007, 07:54
There is a very intelligent dissertation of this topic in The Gun Digest Book of The AR-15 authored by Patrick Sweeney.

In fact, one whole chapter (Chapter 9 pp.127-135) is dedicated in discussing the virtues and shortcomings of both guns.

Mr. Sweeney, at the start of the chapter recounts an experience of some of his fellow shooters who went to the Philippines to participate in the World Shoot. These shooters had used the web as their source of info on hotel rooms in the Philippines and made reservations. They ended up in a very exciting neighborhood which made them lock and bar their doors and loading their competition guns before turning in for the night.

In sum, below are his assessments of the AR-15 vs. AK-47:

Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics - Advantage, AR-15
Manipulation of Controls - Advantage, AR-15
Comfort to Shoot - Advantage, AR-15
Reliability - Advantage, AK-47
Durability - Advantage, AK-47
Availability and Cost - Advantage, AK-47
Maintenace cost - AK-47
Rebuilding,Upgrading,Replacing parts- AR-15

There are very good discussion points in the details of the book. It's available both at Powerbooks and National Bookstore for PhP1,389.

bulm540
02-16-2007, 09:23
Originally posted by jasonub
:upeyes:
















Bul540,

did they say in the video 600 or 800 meters? even trained people with ak cant hit a tank sized target at that range. They mentioned shooting at moving targets with their m4's? damn there good if they hit those too :thumbsup:
These are blackwater trained folks. Yes the SDM-R with 77 grains bullets had confirmed kills at 600 meters. They are actually replacing M 14s with the new SDM-Rs. The guy in the video look slike is using a 20 in freefloated barrel. Looks like a leupold scope.
RElax lang tayo guys, Mahal yung HTN meds.
This thread was fun though, Debunking some of the myths.

maskytrading
02-17-2007, 20:51
Webster's dictionary defines forum as:

1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2 : a judicial body or assembly : COURT
3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem

BOGs forum falls in meaning 1c above: a medium(as a newspaper or online service) for open discussion. Very clear on the matter...we discuss our opinions or preferences or biases or whatever and then we defend it and most of the time along the way, we disagree with our forum mates...we think and then we write down what we want to say which is contrary to a forum mates' postings, no quarrel with that... But please gentlemen let's try to limit our posts to topic issues only. Walang personalan (English Trans. No Ad Hominems)

The AK47 vs M16 and variants topic is discussed by so many forums but this is the first online Pinoy (English Trans.:Filipino)forum thread on the matter I think, thanks to GLOCK TALK/BOGs...AKs have been around for 60 years and it has evolved into so many variants...M16s started a little later in the late 50's and has developed more variants and accessories that you can replace all the parts of a rifle and come out with a different gun...which in itself is industry apart from mfg. M16s.

This thread started on Jan.29/07 and it is only 20 days old with only 185 opinions/ideas/statements etc. including this one posted...There are so many more stories to tell about the 2 carbines...Let's keep them coming...And here's another experience: Yesterday, I was at Eagle Gun & Rifle Range in Clark...great facility...great customer service(ROs)... very nice friendly owners/managers (Bobster and Rosey who turned out to be a friend/dorm mate/school mate of my elder brother from way back in the mid-70s in a school, the name I forgot at Katipunan Ave.QC )...As sort of promo, use of range guns was free...there were several Colt M4s and an A1; a brand new UZI and a well worn MP5, several pistols (Glocks, Colts and Paras), shotguns (Benellis, Remingtons and a Street Sweeper and a solitary Walther G22 suppressed(when fired the sound is about 1/3 of an air rifles' report IMO in an open air enviroment)...but of course, I gravitated towards the M4s...Cashed in 60 rounds, BTW, the M4s were the winners of Miss Popularity yesterday, almost everybody wanted to hug them...But I don't know what was the matter with those M4s we used at the range...All looked almost new but very finicky with stoppages/malfunctions/jams, fte, failed to fire full auto etc...the ROs were always cleaning/servicing, changing parts etc. but still up till end of the day the M4s (mis)behaved the same. IMO, one of the causes of problematic firing yesterday was the "too much interchange" of the parts. How I wished I could've brought my AK47 along but cannot, no PTT due to GB.

maskytrading
02-17-2007, 21:56
Originally posted by bulm540
Here you go http://youtube.com/watch?v=inhl0fbjcdk&mode=related&search=

Durability?!?!
http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/ak100/
and then click on the link...
AK-74M gave birth to the AK 100-series. (MPEG Video).

bulm540
02-17-2007, 23:38
Originally posted by maskytrading
Webster's dictionary defines forum as:

1 a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas
2 : a judicial body or assembly : COURT
3 a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem

BOGs forum falls in meaning 1c above: a medium(as a newspaper or online service) for open discussion. Very clear on the matter...we discuss our opinions or preferences or biases or whatever and then we defend it and most of the time along the way, we disagree with our forum mates...we think and then we write down what we want to say which is contrary to a forum mates' postings, no quarrel with that... But please gentlemen let's try to limit our posts to topic issues only. Walang personalan (English Trans. No Ad Hominems)

The AK47 vs M16 and variants topic is discussed by so many forums but this is the first online Pinoy (English Trans.:Filipino)forum thread on the matter I think, thanks to GLOCK TALK/BOGs...AKs have been around for 60 years and it has evolved into so many variants...M16s started a little later in the late 50's and has developed more variants and accessories that you can replace all the parts of a rifle and come out with a different gun...which in itself is industry apart from mfg. M16s.

This thread started on Jan.29/07 and it is only 20 days old with only 185 opinions/ideas/statements etc. including this one posted...There are so many more stories to tell about the 2 carbines...Let's keep them coming...And here's another experience: Yesterday, I was at Eagle Gun & Rifle Range in Clark...great facility...great customer service(ROs)... very nice friendly owners/managers (Bobster and Rosey who turned out to be a friend/dorm mate/school mate of my elder brother from way back in the mid-70s in a school, the name I forgot at Katipunan Ave.QC )...As sort of promo, use of range guns was free...there were several Colt M4s and an A1; a brand new UZI and a well worn MP5, several pistols (Glocks, Colts and Paras), shotguns (Benellis, Remingtons and a Street Sweeper and a solitary Walther G22 suppressed(when fired the sound is about 1/3 of an air rifles' report IMO in an open air enviroment)...but of course, I gravitated towards the M4s...Cashed in 60 rounds, BTW, the M4s were the winners of Miss Popularity yesterday, almost everybody wanted to hug them...But I don't know what is the matter with those M4s we used at the range...All looked almost new but very finicky with stoppages/malfunctions/jams, fte, failed to fire full auto etc...the ROs were always cleaning/servicing, changing parts etc. but still up till end of the day the M4s (mis)behaved the same. IMO, one of the causes of problematic firing yesterday was the "too much interchange" of the parts. How I wished I could've brought my AK47 along but cannot, no PTT due to GB.
Were they real M4s or M4 gery? What kind of mags were they using???

royal glockster
02-18-2007, 00:02
No m4gery bro, real M4 and lots of them. I was there too, i fired the mini uzi, remington pump and the benelli semi-auto...:banana:

Sarap pala mag shot-gun...wohoooo..:banana: Calling sir Kamelot..turuan mo ako ng shotgun speed shoot...hehe..

KevlarSix
02-18-2007, 00:06
Originally posted by revo
nitrox,

You edited your post but I was actually able to read your previous post before you changed it.

All I have to say that a landowner and/or capitalist brandishing a high-powered weapon, even if its your own property, represents, to the Nice People Around, a prime target for expropriation.

If you feel that you are in danger in your own farm or fishpond and can't move about without a show of force, then something is wrong with the way you do business that may be creating a gap between you and the local people that will surely attract the attention of those who have a more radical interpretation of how social justice should be meted.

You might want to examine how you relate to the local people and improve relations, if need be, so you don't feel somebody is out to get you - even if those grievances are not warranted.

As a suggestion, do service to the people sometimes within your power and means - like bring a doctor there for free checkups or help in the community with donation stuff to the local schools, etc.

I actually have a long time friend who owns big coconut farmland in Quezon that has very good relations with the Nice People Around and they don't bother him too much.

What he said. +1 :thumbsup:

3kings
02-18-2007, 02:38
Originally posted by bulm540
Were they real M4s or M4 gery? What kind of mags were they using???

its not the mags nor the guns, there were a set of ammos delivered from south africa that were traced to be the problem.

that's what we found out later that afternoon.

bulm540
02-18-2007, 07:41
Thanks 3 kings. I am glad you can still SA Ammo over there, they are good ammo. I fired over a thousand rounds through my bushmaster when they were available over here and they were good stuff.

maskytrading
02-19-2007, 04:06
Please view the site:

http://www.ak-47book.com/

More people prefer the AK47/variants than the M16/variants...What does it mean?...That more prefer reliability to accuracy or to be more specific,...most reliable and enough accuracy(AK47/variants) to lesser reliability and more accuracy(Armalites)? If we are to believe in numbers or statistics regarding manufacture and usage througout the world...more than 50M for the AKs compared to 10M plus Armalites...it is quite obvious that choice of the majority is the AKs with a 5:1 ratio.

bulm540
02-19-2007, 07:57
Sure, the AK tolerances are looser. The Soviet Union gave out a bunch of AKs, If it were free and I was a recipient of it I'd accept it.

maskytrading
02-19-2007, 09:50
Originally posted by bulm540
Sure, the AK tolerances are looser. The Soviet Union gave out a bunch of AKs, If it were free and I was a recipient of it I'd accept it.

You mean clearances are wider inside an AK as opposed to the Babys tight inside the receiver firing mechanism?...That is part of the design of Michael because he envisioned, no, he knew that his tool will used in all kinds of enviroments...in snow, sand, mud, water/rain/humidity etc. and this is one advantage by the AK47 over the Baby...But the USofA also gives out a lot of surplus M16s also to allies, not only rifles but other armaments as well.

bulm540
02-19-2007, 18:08
Originally posted by maskytrading
You mean clearances are wider inside an AK as opposed to the Babys tight inside the receiver firing mechanism?...That is part of the design of Michael because he envisioned, no, he knew that his tool will used in all kinds of enviroments...in snow, sand, mud, water/rain/humidity etc. and this is one advantage by the AK47 over the Baby...But the USofA also gives out a lot of surplus M16s also to allies, not only rifles but other armaments as well.
Don't you think that the M 16 was designed to function in all environments or AM I missing something else here.
This thread reminds of "Which came first the chicken or the egg".
I guess it's to each his own. I don't like the AK for obvious reasons ( I have tried it), Had an FAL- pretty good gun- recoil was a handful but tolerable. I bought an AR and fell in love- very little recoil - damn accurate & reliable ( best of both worlds).

3kings
02-19-2007, 19:31
Originally posted by bulm540
Don't you think that the M 16 was designed to function in all environments or AM I missing something else here.
This thread reminds of "Which came first the chicken or the egg".
I guess it's to each his own. I don't like the AK for obvious reasons ( I have tried it), Had an FAL- pretty good gun- recoil was a handful but tolerable. I bought an AR and fell in love- very little recoil - damn accurate & reliable ( best of both worlds).

+1 on that, to each his own bro. well im just the guy who easily gets in-love. if the galils, hk and fn are easy on the pocket definitely i will have some stacked against my wall

maskytrading
02-19-2007, 22:00
Originally posted by bulm540
Don't you think that the M 16 was designed to function in all environments or AM I missing something else here.
This thread reminds of "Which came first the chicken or the egg".
I guess it's to each his own. I don't like the AK for obvious reasons ( I have tried it), Had an FAL- pretty good gun- recoil was a handful but tolerable. I bought an AR and fell in love- very little recoil - damn accurate & reliable ( best of both worlds).


Yes, bro, you missed something...in 1959 Fairchild Co., employer of Eugene, got so disappointed with the AR-15 development that they sold the rights and design of said FA to Colt...Eugene followed his "Baby" and joined Colt a few months later in 1960...During the same year Colt demoed the new black rifle to USAF which resulted in a P.O.several thousand units in favor of Colt...the reason for the P.O.s was that they(USAF) wanted to replace M1/M2 carbines as the firearm for the Security Forces tasked to secure SAC and its bases/silo.

Security forces of USAF/SAC Bases/Silos are usually very far from the fronts or combat zone...The intended usage of the AR15 and why it was procured was for security purposes and not for combat...

isuzu
02-19-2007, 22:27
Originally posted by maskytrading
Yes, bro, you missed something...in 1959 Fairchild Co., employer of Eugene, got so disappointed with the AR-15 development that they sold the rights and design of said FA to Colt...Eugene followed his "Baby" and joined Colt a few months later in 1960...During the same year Colt demoed the new black rifle to USAF which resulted in a P.O.several thousand units in favor of Colt...the reason for the P.O.s was that they(USAF) wanted to replace M1/M2 carbines as the firearm for the Security Forces tasked to secure SAC and its bases/silo.

Security forces of USAF/SAC Bases/Silos are usually very far from the fronts or combat zone...The intended usage of the AR15 and why it was procured was for security purposes and not for combat...

The M16 platform has evolved a lot and improvements have been made to make the rifle as an effective combat and sniping weapon. Bushmaster even now has a gas piston upper. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/pre-ban/bura2b16m4-gp.asp

Ammo development has also improved a lot and the 300+ meter range has been surpassed with regards to effective range with heavier bullets and rifling designed for the task. Even the Philippine Marines now have the M16 platform (with a DPMS upper) as their standard sniper weapon. I'd disagree that the M16 platform is inferior to the AK. Each system has its own advantages and disadvantages. It will eventually all boil down to the operator getting the best out of each system. Maintenance would also be a big factor for both systems. Anything that is not properly maintained will fail.

I wouldn't mind getting an M16, and AK or an M14.

maskytrading
02-19-2007, 23:15
Originally posted by isuzu
The M16 platform has evolved a lot and improvements have been made to make the rifle as an effective combat and sniping weapon. Bushmaster even now has a gas piston upper. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/pre-ban/bura2b16m4-gp.aspammo development has also improved a lot and the 300+ meter range has been surpassed with regards to effective range with heavier bullets and rifling designed for the task. Even the Philippine Marines now have the M16 platform (with a DPMS upper) as their standard sniper weapon. I'd disagree that the M16 platform is inferior to the AK. Each system has its own advantages and disadvantages. It will eventually all boil down to the operator getting the best out of each system. Maintenance would also be a big factor for both systems. Anything that is not properly maintained will fail.I wouldn't mind getting an M16, and AK or an M14.

I agree with you completely that M16/variants of today are light years different from the M16s of Vietnam...More accurate,more accessorized and last but not least...more reliable than ever before...the makers have already understood its design flaws like the direct gas system paired with tight clearances in the receiver...gas piston/venting innovations for a cleaner interior are slowly creeping in...But isn't this the design style of the AK?...if you cannot beat 'em, join 'em?...But, it's not only M16/variants people copying AK systems...AK people have versions in 5.56Nato which is inherently a more accurate cartridge also. What are we seeing here? Each mfr. trying to adjust to the others' strong suit?? Yes, imo, it is very obvious...In a few years we will be seeing variants of the two standards that will fire anytime, anywhere when you pull the trigger and with 1MOA @100yds. But at this point in time, the AK still has the advantage overall assuming of course that the operator is very well trained, IMO.

bulm540
02-20-2007, 07:33
Originally posted by maskytrading
Yes, bro, you missed something...in 1959 Fairchild Co., employer of Eugene, got so disappointed with the AR-15 development that they sold the rights and design of said FA to Colt...Eugene followed his "Baby" and joined Colt a few months later in 1960...During the same year Colt demoed the new black rifle to USAF which resulted in a P.O.several thousand units in favor of Colt...the reason for the P.O.s was that they(USAF) wanted to replace M1/M2 carbines as the firearm for the Security Forces tasked to secure SAC and its bases/silo.

Security forces of USAF/SAC Bases/Silos are usually very far from the fronts or combat zone...The intended usage of the AR15 and why it was procured was for security purposes and not for combat...
I'll say it again, To each his own.

maskytrading
03-01-2007, 08:28
Here is an AK variant that is supposedly 2x as accurate than an AK74...it's called an AK 107 caliber 5.45X39R and AK 108 caliber 5.56Nato...identical except for the cartridge...Alexandrov Kalashnikov 107/108 Rifle(s)...pls. view link:

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/assault/ak1078.html

anticentipede
03-04-2007, 06:27
Originally posted by revo
Here's how I see this.

1) Home Defense - Neither. Get a pump shotgun and use buckshot. And
call LE on your cell phone while bringing your
family to a safe room.

2)Street/Road Rage - Neither. Drive away from the fight and call Law
Enforcement. You are not trained. You will
only create a bigger mess. Call the highway
patrol on your cell phone and give their license
plates.

3) Urban Shootouts - Neither. Run away from the shootout. Again, you
are not trained and you have no MOUT experience.
You will panic and get others killed.

4) Against the NPA in a jungle - If you see NPA in the jungle,
be very polite and act like a civilian and offer
them coffee or food. As soon as you get
get out of there, call the Phil Marines, OK ?

Let the experts do the fighting.

I agree with all except number 1. Using a shotgun and hiding out in a room is ok against the akyat bahay but against a squatter invasion scenario, the m-16 is best, better accuracy and better range, you can start picking them off at long range. Then you can use the shotgun when they get close.

Same thing if you own land in the provinces, and the commie scum attack, the m-16 is better,more range, better accuracy, you can pick them off before they can get close enough to hit you accurately.

A mounted 12.7 machinegun would be better though, mounted on a armored car or an APC. But that would cost millions.

anticentipede
03-05-2007, 05:47
Check this out, pump action .223 riles.

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

Allegra
03-05-2007, 10:22
Originally posted by anticentipede
I agree with all except number 1. Using a shotgun and hiding out in a room is ok against the akyat bahay but against a squatter invasion scenario, the m-16 is best, better accuracy and better range, you can start picking them off at long range. Then you can use the shotgun when they get close.

Same thing if you own land in the provinces, and the commie scum attack, the m-16 is better,more range, better accuracy, you can pick them off before they can get close enough to hit you accurately.

A mounted 12.7 machinegun would be better though, mounted on a armored car or an APC. But that would cost millions.



Hi bro,
Great answers
I'm just curious , how young are you?

vega
03-05-2007, 14:45
Originally posted by Allegra
Hi bro,
Great answers
I'm just curious , how young are you?
He is 30 yrs young.

maskytrading
03-06-2007, 02:05
Here's an AK variant used in accuracy testing:

www.redstararms.com/vepreport.pdf

mtho
03-06-2007, 12:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIs7H7-g29Q&NR

maskytrading
03-11-2007, 07:17
Does anybody know which gunstore carry this tool. Pls. see attachment. TIA for any info. BTW, it's a "windage & elevation sight tool" made by Tapco.

5zero
03-22-2007, 07:58
Hi, AK 47 and AR 15 is entirely different. AK is a high power sub-machinegun, powerfull, dependable, when ever you need fire, it will fire, but AR 15 is a Rifle, its accuracy is super, though it require more maintenance than AK to operate at all times.

So it depend how you would like to assess those two, but for me, they are not in the same boat.It's good to have both if it may permit.

bulm540
03-22-2007, 16:34
Ahhhhhh... submachinegun? AK is an Assault rifle.

anticentipede
03-22-2007, 21:48
The military full-auto version is the assault rifle, the civilian semi-auto one isn't, its just another semi-auto rifle , but a reliable one.

I believe there are versions of the semi-auto ak that use the 5.56x45 m16 ammo rather than the usual 7.62x39.

maskytrading
03-22-2007, 22:02
Originally posted by anticentipede
The military full-auto version is the assault rifle, the civilian semi-auto one isn't, its just another semi-auto rifle , but a reliable one.I believe there are versions of the semi-auto ak that use the 5.56x45 m16 ammo rather than the usual 7.62x39.

As mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, a weapon/firearm must have at least 20 inches of barrel for it to be called a rifle...if the barrel is less say from 14 to 18in.s, it is called a carbine...An AK47 has only l6.3 inches barrel so strictly speaking, it is an assault carbine just like the M4 and as such should not be compared to the M16 which is a rifle which has better accuracy at longer ranges

AK-101 and AK-108 are chambered for the 5.56Nato Round, also...these are but two of the latest variants of the old AK47

bulm540
03-23-2007, 23:42
Originally posted by anticentipede
The military full-auto version is the assault rifle, the civilian semi-auto one isn't, its just another semi-auto rifle , but a reliable one.

I believe there are versions of the semi-auto ak that use the 5.56x45 m16 ammo rather than the usual 7.62x39.
They are called sporting rifles here ( still an assault rifle as far as the definition). This is to make it more palatable to the general public. Here is the definition of an Assault rifle
assault rifle
n.
Any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles designed for individual use in combat.

vega
03-24-2007, 00:33
Originally posted by bulm540
Here is the definition of an Assault rifle
assault rifle
n.
Any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles designed for individual use in combat.


Powers to be have a different definition in CA.
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(b) The Legislature finds a significant public purpose in exempting pistols that are designed expressly for use in Olympic target shooting events. Therefore, those pistols that are sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and by USA Shooting, the national governing body for international shooting competition in the United States, and that are used for Olympic target shooting purposes at the time the act adding this subdivision is enacted, and that would otherwise fall within the definition of "assault weapon" pursuant to this section are exempt, as provided in subdivision (c).
(c) "Assault weapon" does not include either of the following:
(1) Any antique firearm.
(2) Any of the following pistols, because they are consistent with the significant public purpose expressed in subdivision (b):

anticentipede
03-24-2007, 06:13
Originally posted by vega
Powers to be have a different definition in CA.
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
(b) The Legislature finds a significant public purpose in exempting pistols that are designed expressly for use in Olympic target shooting events. Therefore, those pistols that are sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee and by USA Shooting, the national governing body for international shooting competition in the United States, and that are used for Olympic target shooting purposes at the time the act adding this subdivision is enacted, and that would otherwise fall within the definition of "assault weapon" pursuant to this section are exempt, as provided in subdivision (c).
(c) "Assault weapon" does not include either of the following:
(1) Any antique firearm.
(2) Any of the following pistols, because they are consistent with the significant public purpose expressed in subdivision (b):

I can smell the stinking stench of democrats from this.

bulm540
03-24-2007, 06:59
Well, CAliban is a different country anyways. They have their own Definitions of everything. My bad that's their liberal interpretation of an assault rifle.

maskytrading
03-24-2007, 07:33
Some states in U.S. of A try to infringe on the 2nd Amendment via some technicality or some legal mumbo jumbo and are getting away with it...Shouldn't the persons or more specifically the officials elected or otherwise who attack RKBA be declared as enemies of the people because they are against/undermining the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution? I mean, you are a citizen(officials elected or otherwise) of the U.S.of A and here you are doing something against the Constitution? Something is very wrong with the picture there...Gov't should uphold the Constitution but as it is, they(some high officials) are torpedoing the RKBA and in my book and IMO, the RP situation looks better in the future :upeyes:

bulm540
03-28-2007, 19:58
Originally posted by maskytrading
As mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, a weapon/firearm must have at least 20 inches of barrel for it to be called a rifle...if the barrel is less say from 14 to 18in.s, it is called a carbine...An AK47 has only l6.3 inches barrel so strictly speaking, it is an assault carbine just like the M4 and as such should not be compared to the M16 which is a rifle which has better accuracy at longer ranges

AK-101 and AK-108 are chambered for the 5.56Nato Round, also...these are but two of the latest variants of the old AK47

maskytrading
03-28-2007, 22:34
IMO, an AK101/AK2000*, an AK108 and an M4 would be good examples for comparison as to accuracy,handling and reliability traits. All three platforms are chambered for the 5.56Nato and sporting 16 inch tubes...some articles pitting the 101/2000 against the 108 say the latter is smoother, and 2x as accurate...reliability was not a factor as both use AKs basic design...I guess accuracy wise the 108 will give the M4 a run for its money but as I said it is just a guess since I have not laid hands on a 108 yet


*AK101 is the russian designation for 5.56Nato chambered AK47 variant; AK2000 is the same rifle but made in China and available in RP @40K Php

maskytrading
04-01-2007, 06:08
Here's a very good discussion thread from another forum; pls. follow the link below and try to read it's 3 pages. The views/opinions are quite interesting since they came from old GIs...
http://www.vajoe.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=1035&p=1

markieboy
04-18-2007, 09:25
Hi everyone!

Very interesting discussion going on here. Anyone selling or knows of someone selling a baby Armalite? I'm looking for one, preferably an Elisco. Just PM me. Thanks, guys.

kcboy
04-18-2007, 10:35
Originally posted by markieboy
Hi everyone!

Very interesting discussion going on here. Anyone selling or knows of someone selling a baby Armalite? I'm looking for one, preferably an Elisco. Just PM me. Thanks, guys.


same here....pm nalng po,:hugs:

theTactician
04-20-2007, 18:21
For me, it has always been the M16 assualt rifle. nothing still beats the .223 rem, accuracy wise. I had an M16a2 in the phils and i just loved every minute of shooting it. I may sound biased coz i havent been able to use an AK47 but i believe that the m16 was engineered to last for a long long time.

maskytrading
04-22-2007, 06:57
Here is a link about the M16 from an old grunt... please do try to read it (part 1 and 2)

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html#(2)
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

isuzu
04-22-2007, 07:32
Originally posted by maskytrading
Here is a link about the M16 from an old grunt... please do try to read it (part 1 and 2)

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html#(2)
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

Hi, MK? How was your trip to Bacolod?:)

maskytrading
04-23-2007, 05:00
Originally posted by isuzu
Hi, MK? How was your trip to Bacolod?:)

It felt good to be back home again after being out of town for almost a decade...went to Mambucal; it's Mambukal with a "k" now and spent eight days there...the "kabug(s)" or giant fruit bats are so many now, some employees say that the number is about 10K already...Talked to an old-timer there and shared the same views that maybe it's about time the population of the "kabug(s)" be controlled...went to the old alma mater where a lot has changed since...touched base with old friends and classmates over beer and alcohol and more beer and alcohol...I think I'm going back after elections

isuzu
04-24-2007, 21:53
Originally posted by maskytrading
It felt good to be back home again after being out of town for almost a decade...went to Mambucal; it's Mambukal with a "k" now and spent eight days there...the "kabug(s)" or giant fruit bats are so many now, some employees say that the number is about 10K already...Talked to an old-timer there and shared the same views that maybe it's about time the population of the "kabug(s)" be controlled...went to the old alma mater where a lot has changed since...touched base with old friends and classmates over beer and alcohol and more beer and alcohol...I think I'm going back after elections

Ten years (or almost) is quite a long time. Yup, La Salle has changed a lot. The old gym is in La Salle Victorias now. They dismantled the gym and assembled it in Canetown.

The kabugs are making a comeback. Thanks to the conservation efforts of the locals. Yes, beer and more beer! You should try going to Punta Bulata (www.puntabulata.com) in Cauayan. It's owned by Bomber Zayco and Miren Lopez-Zayco. I'm sure you know them. It's a nice place to unwind. The spa there is excellent!

maskytrading
06-01-2008, 09:31
this is an old thread but was tempted to add a rejoinder...what do you have when you have the accuracy of a baby and the reliability of an ak? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_HK416

Apparently, it has the looks of a baby but with the piston mechanism of an ak:supergrin:

isuzu
06-01-2008, 10:59
this is an old thread but was tempted to add a rejoinder...what do you have when you have the accuracy of a baby and the reliability of an ak? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_HK416

Apparently, it has the looks of a baby but with the piston mechanism of an ak:supergrin:


I believe it is another of their attempt to gain the attention of the US military top brass (their previous attempt wasn't successful). This platform has more flexibility in terms of adaptation to the AR platform than the previous one.

The gunstore where I bought my Norinco M14S told me they might have a shipment of Norinco SKSs this summer. Very tempting for $139.00. Would you be able to tell if the gas mechanism is similar to the AK?

Clusterbomb
06-01-2008, 21:13
I like the AK design but I prefer the improved version- the Galil. I saw a compact Galil at the Magnificent World of Guns booth many gunshows ago and it was beautiful. It had a shorter barrel than the standard IDI issue and had plastic furniture. There was an even shorter one on display- something good for car carry or drive-by shoots.

presidingglock
06-02-2008, 22:55
Just get both...

<a target='_blank' title='ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting' href='http://imageshack.us/'><img src='http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/4975/goer102gd8.jpg' border='0'/></a>

jojo_G19
06-03-2008, 07:22
both are great guns, if possible, get both..


i already have an AR type rifle.. my next buy would be an AK. :supergrin::supergrin:


jojo

maskytrading
06-03-2008, 10:37
I believe it is another of their attempt to gain the attention of the US military top brass (their previous attempt wasn't successful). This platform has more flexibility in terms of adaptation to the AR platform than the previous one.The gunstore where I bought my Norinco M14S told me they might have a shipment of Norinco SKSs this summer. Very tempting for $139.00. Would you be able to tell if the gas mechanism is similar to the AK?

The gas mechanism of the Hk416 is derived from HKs G36... which is a rotating bolt system according to sources

bulm540
06-03-2008, 18:09
Thye changed the direct gas of the m 16 to a tappet system. . They also improved the mags.