7.62X39 Penetration

[dglockster]

The URL showing the penetration capabilities of the 7.62X39 round below was posted on http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=19979.
Pretty interesting to watch even with the Russian text.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr4s3jjUOxQ

[G21forME]

That was pretty sweet, I'm impressed.

[paccw]

That's why I love an AK over an AR

Think how our troops felt in Vietnam hiding behind those skinny soft wood trees.It would feel like standing in an open field.

And our guys were shooting what? 223 55 gr fmj.That won't go through 8 inches of pine wood(tested on TV show)

[RMTactical]

Penetration is the only thing the 7.62x39 has going for it really... at least ballistically speaking.

It's not a great round, but it's decent for what it is. I prefer 5.56 or 5.45 personally.

That said, the kill ratio in Vietnam does not speak well for the 7.62x39...

Training and skill are far better determining factors in combat than bullet penetration.

[paccw]

That said, the kill ratio in Vietnam does not speak well for the 7.62x39...

Training and skill are far better determining factors in combat than bullet penetration. [/B]

I guess that is what called "talking out both sides"

Are you saying a poorly trained soldier would have a higher kill ratio with a AR?
No I guess not.Still comes down to you have to aim the rifle.

[RMTactical]

Originally posted by paccw
I guess that is what called "talking out both sides"

Are you saying a poorly trained soldier would have a higher kill ratio with a AR?
No I guess not.Still comes down to you have to aim the rifle.

No, of course I'm not saying that. I'm simply stating that I don't think our troops felt inadequate because the enemy has/had 7.62x39 caliber rifles...

[Decguns]

In my 20 years on active duty, I've been involved with quite a bit of firearm and ballistics research. The 7.62X39 never gained a reputation for lethality. Some versions of the projectile found in Eastern Europe are more likely to tumble in soft tissue than the standard Russian M43. Standard LCB penetration on soft tissue is impressive, but on a hard target, it is unremarkable. Steel core 57-H-231C and AP 7H23 approach 7.62 NATO ball penetration on hard targets. Steel core and AP are often utilized when demonstrating penetration, as in the video, though LCB seems far more common on the battle field.

The penetration of the 5.56 M193 (55 grain FMJBT) in a 1-12 twist barrel faired poorly in comparison with the M43 on hard targets. On the other hand, on soft tissue, the M193 proved devastating. Wound data acquired from the Vietnam war was so horrific even our own NATO allies would not adopt the 5.56 with the slow 1-12 twist (as NATO and Russia both deemed the combination inhumane). Most Asian allies have retained the 1-12 twist rate & the M193.

To defeat Com-Bloc body armor, the FN designed 5.56 SS109 proved quite capable in the 1-10 twist barrels on hard targets yet still retained much of its lethality in soft tissue. While a 1-10 twist satisfied our allies, the US Marines required the new projectile to perform on the same level as standard issue NATO ball on hard targets from their proposed SAW (later adopting the FN MiniMi M249). A 1-7 twist rate was the only way to achieve this. Spinning at over 300,000 RPM, the little SS109 literally drills through hard targets. It will out penetrate 7.62 NATO ball (not AP) at distances exceeding 1300 meters. Yet, the 1-7 twist rate did not hamper the tumbling effect on soft tissue (contrary to reports in the gun rags after Somalia). While the 5.56 does not have a reputation of knocking bad guys down quickly, it does have a significant mortality rate.

Sorry to bore the snot out you guys... both cartridges are quite a success, no matter how effective on hard/soft targets.

[Ron3]

I don't think twist rate has any thing to do with terminal ballistics.

I believe twist rate is about accuracy and bullet length.

Back on topic though.

7.62X39 generally penetrates objects better than 5.56. Terminal effects are another matter and even more load-dependant.

Ron3

[dano8801]

Originally posted by Ron3
I don't think twist rate has any thing to do with terminal ballistics.

I believe twist rate is about accuracy and bullet length.

Back on topic though.

7.62X39 generally penetrates objects better than 5.56. Terminal effects are another matter and even more load-dependant.

Ron3

Twist rate can and will affect the bullet's stability and tumbling.

[Ron3]

Originally posted by dano8801
Twist rate can and will affect the bullet's stability and tumbling.

Maybe, but not as much as bullet velocity and construction.

Ron3

[Army of Juan]

Just use the Wolf Military Classic HP loading, then you have good penetration and fragmentation. It has the more modern bullet (forgot its designation)and has been shown to frag nicely.

[Ron3]

Originally posted by Army of Juan
Just use the Wolf Military Classic HP loading, then you have good penetration and fragmentation. It has the more modern bullet (forgot its designation)and has been shown to frag nicely.

It doesn't fragment, but may as it is a bit unpredictiable. Usually turns sideways and squeezes lead out both ends. Not too bad though still makes a decent stretch cavity and penetrates well, though often not in a linear path. The HP bullets are just FMJ's with the nose cut off. Simple, eh?

I prefer the FMJ Wolf bullet. Has the airgap up front that makes it tumble early on (First four or five inches is typical) and create a good stretch cavity as well as good penetration.

I have a bunch of the 123gr JSP Wolf bullets but I've never seen them tested nor done any myself.

As far as terminal effects the steel core and AP bullets seem to be the least efficient. Lots of penetration, very late tumbling. But still, these loads have killed thousands if not millions of people.

Ron3

[Army of Juan]

http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5728

You may have to be a member there to view the page???

Sure looks like it fragments to me.

[glock_19_9mm]

That was pretty impressive.

A few years ago I took an old bullet proof vest and hung it over a 6in diameter tree stump. I want back about 50 feet and fired my SKS into it. The round went thru the front of the vest, thru the stump and exited thru the rear of the vest.

Made me not want to go against an SKS anytime soon...