Need advice on a .223 AK

[Mabo]

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the AK world and I know just enough to be dangerous to myself so I was looking for some advice from some more experienced members. I'm looking to get an AK chambered in .223 and I need some suggestions as to what brand would be the best. In order of priority these are my requirements:

1. Must be reliable
2. Ability to mount optics (either through some add on like an Ultimak or if it comes with some rails from the manufacturer then great)
3. The lighter the better as this will be my SHTF gun and I might have to be carrying it on foot.

Price is no option, I simply want the best. I've heard Arsenal and Vector are two good brands but are there any others? How about gun smiths specializing in upgrading AK's, are there any quality establishments that I should know about? Thank you for your help. :50cal:

[Washington,D.C.]

Arsenal is the best.They are sold with and without the side rail scope mount.If you want a scope mount make sure you get one with the rail.They were making milled receivers which you may still be able to find but they are becoming less common but they make the best stamped receivers and they are also good.

I'm not sure Vector makes a 223 AK.If they do it's with Bulgarian parts.The earlier Vectors have very nice stamped Global receivers.The current ones have NDS/DCI stamped receivers which aren't bad but th Globals seem a bit nicer.Vector did assemble some aK's on Bulgarian milled receivers but they are all 7.62.

Scope rails are more common on Arsenal AK's and they the top choice anyway.The stamped receiver SLR-106 is lighter weight than the milled receiver AK's.

[Army of Juan]

Have you thought about 5.45x39? Mags and ammo are considerably cheaper than 5.56 and available from many sources.

[Washington,D.C.]

5.45 ammo might dry up.The countries that used it,Romania,Bulgaria,East Germany and Poland have gone to 5.56.Russia had bad experience with 5.45 in Chechnya and has been going back to 7.62.

In America there is a steady supply of 223/5.56,all non corrosive and a lot of handloading components.It's not the best choice for an AK and the AK isn't the best rifle for it but at least the local discount stores eell it.

The Russian made commercial 5.45 ammo is nothing like the military 5.45 ammo.The surplus 5.45 will run out sometime.Those countries are just getting rid of it now.He also said he wasn't concerned with price.The 223 magazines aren't expensive they just don't interchange between the different 223 AK's.

[Army of Juan]

I heard that the Russians problem with 5.45 was with barrier penetration, something that the 5.56 also lacks. There is so much military grade 5.45 in the country now with boatloads more on the way. Prices are on a downward trend instead of upward like 7.62x39 and 5.56, so I approached the future supply problem by "buying cheap and stacking deep". It’s corrosive; so long term storage isn't an issue.

With all that said I respect the guy’s wishes if he is only considering the 5.56, I was only suggesting an alternative.

Either way, at least he wants an AK. :thumbsup:

My choice (for a 5.56 version) would be to look for a SAM 5 or the SLR 106.

[crazymoose]

If price is no option, look at Arsenals, or better yet, a VEPR if you can get your hands on it.


Even though the days when they cost $500 are over, my VEPR IIK in 5.56 will shoot groups as tight as my AR-15. Also has the side mount for scopes. Downside is that it's pretty heavy, as it's bascially a cut-down RPK: heavy receiver, heavy barrel. Accuracy and durability don't come for free. This wouldn't be as easy to lug around as a normal AK.

The Arsenal is very well made as well. Not quite as accurate as the VEPR, but lighter, and a "real" AK in that it has generic AK furniture instead of the proprietary stuff found on the VEPR.

Either one of these will serve you well. I personally would go for the VEPR, as I think it's better and don't mind the weight, but I wouldn't be disappointed with the Arsenal, either.

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by crazymoose
If price is no option, look at Arsenals, or better yet, a VEPR if you can get your hands on it.


Even though the days when they cost $500 are over, my VEPR IIK in 5.56 will shoot groups as tight as my AR-15. Also has the side mount for scopes. Downside is that it's pretty heavy, as it's bascially a cut-down RPK: heavy receiver, heavy barrel. Accuracy and durability don't come for free. This wouldn't be as easy to lug around as a normal AK.

The Arsenal is very well made as well. Not quite as accurate as the VEPR, but lighter, and a "real" AK in that it has generic AK furniture instead of the proprietary stuff found on the VEPR.

Either one of these will serve you well. I personally would go for the VEPR, as I think it's better and don't mind the weight, but I wouldn't be disappointed with the Arsenal, either.

I saw a 223 Vepr at a gun show for $1000.The magazines are modified 5.45 and require higher followers that are no longer made.Both the barrel and receiver on the Vepr are very heavy.The buttstocks that fit the Vepr's aren't standard and both original and folding Ace stocks are heavy.The Arsenal 223 AK has more spare parts available such as bolt parts.None of the factory 223 AK magazines fit the Vepr without mods.I paid less than $600 for my 223 Vepr but it is heavy and all magazines require mods.The magazines from Robarms are 5.45 mags that have the feed lips ground,the inside polished because the 223 cartridge is longer than 5.45 and can bind the magazine and they have the special followers which raise the cartridges high enough to be sripped and fed by the bolt.These folllowers are no longer easy to get.Modifying 5.45 mags alone is not reliable.The Buglaran mags are easy to get for the Arsenal.

Arsenal barrels are some of the best.The early ones had milled receiver AK47 type front sights with the threads on the barrel not the sight block.The newer ones have AK74 type front sights with the threads on the sight block nnot the barrel.These barrels are different but the inside parts are the same.The early ones are 22mm at the trunnion and the newer ones are 23mm at the trunnion.Arsenal improved the 223 magazines a bit too.

[Mabo]

I had originally considered a VEPR but decided I would rather trade a reduction in weight for a slight decrease in accuracy. Although I think I might get a VEPR later on down the line, but for now it is sounding like an Arsenal SL-106FR. I do have a few more questions now though, perhaps Washington,D.C. or someone else can help me out.

1. I see the SL-106FR comes with a scope rail, is it capable of holding an aimpoint or similar optic?
2. Does the SL-106FR use a proprietary magazine?
3. Can I replace the stock on the SL-106FR with something else if I so desired?

and finally...

4. I read the SL-106FR has a 1:7 twist rate and that the best ammo for this twist rate is anything over 60 grains. Is there anything else I should know about this twist rate? How does it compare to a 1:12 twist rate?

Thanks for everyones help so far, I really appreciate the comments/opinions/ and knowledge.

[Washington,D.C.]

You can use 55 grain or heavier ammo in a 1 in 7.All 223 AK magazine are unique to that model.The Arsenal magazines are easy to find and not too expensive.Every make of 223 AK uses it own design magazine which normally don't interchange with others.The scope rail is a mount for a mount.An Aimpoint or any other acope can be mounted but requires an additional mount.These are easy to find.Make sure the rifle you buy has the rail as they are sold with and without.This rail is rivetted to the receiver.The 1 in 12 rifling is only for 55 grain and lighter ammo.Ifs the SL-106 a fixed stock or a folding stock?I don't keep up with the model numbers.A fixed stock model can take different stocks.The folding stock model can only take a steel triangle side folder or a solid plastic side folder.

[Mabo]

Thanks Washington,D.C.! The SL-106FR comes with the scope mount, the SL-106F does not. They are both have a left side folding stock. Now all I need to do is place my order and find a place that sells the scope rails that fit onto the scope mount.

[Washington,D.C.]

I recommend the low profile mount.

http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=190

#AMAKPOSPLPSMW


The newest "improved" version is black not silver-grey.





newly upgraded Russian "low-mount" BP-02A Weaver/Picatinney style side mounting bracket for AK


http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/


BP-02 provides an extremely low mounting position on any AK rifle while still providing enough clearance for up to a 40-42mm objective lens size, according to the sight used.


The only problem when ordering make sure it's for an AK not the SVD.I don't know if it's BP-02 or BP-02A but some people when first ordering them received the wrong one.

[crazymoose]

Originally posted by Washington,D.C.
None of the factory 223 AK magazines fit the Vepr without mods.I paid less than $600 for my 223 Vepr but it is heavy and all magazines require mods.The


This is not quite correct. The Bulgarian .223 polymer "waffle" mags work fine. They're tight at first, but after a few insertions and removals, the excess material is shaved off by the magwell and the mags fit and function fine.

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by crazymoose
This is not quite correct. The Bulgarian .223 polymer "waffle" mags work fine. They're tight at first, but after a few insertions and removals, the excess material is shaved off by the magwell and the mags fit and function fine.

There are two different versions of the Bulgarian 223 magazines.The early and the late ones.They fit slightly differently.They usually interchange on eith er the early or the late Bulgarian 223 AK's.You can modify or shave,force or shorten a few different maga to sort of fit the others.The Vepr bolt is different design than the Bulgarian 223 AK's.It passes through the top of the magazine at a slightly different height.

[Mabo]

How do you guys feel about the SL-106FR being a stamped receiver? Do you think there is any chance someone could wear it out? I haven't seen any quantitative evidence compaing stamped vs milled receivers. I did read one person say that you will probably wear out the barrel at about 10,000 rounds and that the stamped receiver will begin to slightly deform, although it should still be good for many more rounds.

I've put close to 10,000 rounds through my G19 and I guess I'm affraid of dropping this much money on a gun that I could possibly wear out at 10,000 rounds. What have been your experiences using a stamped reciever?

[454]

Do not have links handy right now, but here IIRC, Russians replace barrels on the AK-74 at 10-12K rounds, that's on a fully automatic rifle. They will replace at least 5 barrels before junking receiver. That's 50K rounds, with at least half automatic/short bursts.

If you do not get into a habit of firing until barrel glows red, I'd expect you Bulgy barrel to last at least 20K. It is chrome-lined? You will not wear out a receiver. Drop in a Blackjack buffer, if you want to be extra sure.

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by 454
Do not have links handy right now, but here IIRC, Russians replace barrels on the AK-74 at 10-12K rounds, that's on a fully automatic rifle. They will replace at least 5 barrels before junking receiver. That's 50K rounds, with at least half automatic/short bursts.

If you do not get into a habit of firing until barrel glows red, I'd expect you Bulgy barrel to last at least 20K. It is chrome-lined? You will not wear out a receiver. Drop in a Blackjack buffer, if you want to be extra sure.

Arsenal Bulgaria's(not Arsenal USA) website says their rifles are designed/built to last 15,000 rounds.With all of the parts that are installed on the barrel and making the barrel it seems the barrel is more expensive than the stamped receiver.Finland designed the Valmet to be serviced instead of replaced and made some mods and extra tools for the job.This cost quite a bit in hardware and training.They now find it cheaper buy imported AK's than rebuild the old ones.Of course some of those countries don't pay as much for labor.

[Mabo]

So will it be possible to replace the barrel after 20k rounds or is the gun manufactured in such a way that the gun will have to be scrapped?

[Washington,D.C.]

Originally posted by Mabo
So will it be possible to replace the barrel after 20k rounds or is the gun manufactured in such a way that the gun will have to be scrapped?

It won't need it.It's chrome lined and the rifle is semi auto not full auto.Shoot it and enjoy.

[Army of Juan]

And if you do burn out the barrel a gunsmith can put in a new one for you.

[Mabo]

Got my SLR-106FR this weekend. I'll write a short review and give my first impressions once I get a chance to fire it. So far I'm very impressed!:banana:

[Army of Juan]

That was fast! So how many mags are you going to stock up on?

[Mabo]

Right now I only have one 30 rounder, I plan to order four more here shortly. I'm thinking I'll stop buying them when I hit ten, but don't hold me to that. :thumbsup: