VA ALERT: Manassas PD harassment [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : VA ALERT: Manassas PD harassment


Slinger646
02-17-2007, 16:52
In the last VCDL Update, there was an item on the Manassas City Police Department (MCPD) harassing seven law-abiding gun owners in Tony's Pizza restaurant and intimidated the restaurant owner into expelling those gun owners (most of which were VCDL members).

VCDL issued a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to get a copy of all police information about that incident.

Based on the information divulged by the FOIA (emails and voice recordings) and from the seven gun owners we know:

* The police were told that nothing illegal was happening, nor was there a disturbance [on 911 tape]
* For no reason the police intimidated the owner into asking the seven gun owners to leave [officer's emails]
* Refused to look at documents that would show that the gun owners were doing nothing wrong. One officer said that he would look for an excuse to arrest the members if they didn't just leave [gun owners statements]
* Afterwards, in email to each other and other jurisdictions, the MCPD officers show severe disdain for the seven gun owners, WHO WERE NOT BREAKING ANY LAWS NOR CAUSING ANY KIND OF DISTURBANCE
* In fact, the officers went out of their way to refer to VCDL members as "assclowns" and also used some more crude, profane, and vulgar terms

The problem here was that:

1. the officers showed such contempt for law-abiding citizens in their own words and emails and
2. the officers' unwarranted actions at Tony's showed that they wished to act on that contempt by using their extraordinary powers as police officers to harass and intimidate

That combination of having contempt and then acting on it under the color of law is not acceptable for a police officer, who is here to SERVE you and I, not be our MASTER. If a person can't understand the difference, then they have no more business being a law-enforcement officer than a child-molester does.

We are going to demand that City Council take action on this. Either to discipline the officers in question, fire them, and/or disciple or fire the Chief of Police for allowing people like this to serve on his force.

To address this serious issue, VCDL is going to address the Manassas City Council on Monday, February 26th, at 5:30 PM. We might not get heard until 7:30 PM, but I want to be there early, just in case they decided to bump us up.

City Hall is located at 9027 Center Street, Manassas, VA 20110.

I plan on being at City Hall at 5 PM to hand out Guns Save Lives badges to those of you who wish to come show support or to speak on the issue (I will have 10 minutes and the other speakers will have 3 minutes each).

I would really like to pack the Council chambers. The more of you from Manassas, the better. However, I would love to see a good turnout from all of our Northern Virginia members.

If we don't draw a line in the sand with this kind of abuse and indicate that we are not going to take it, we are not only failing those seven innocent gun owners, but the other innocent citizens who will abused by these Manassas police officers in the future.

We are also sending a message out to any other rogue officers in the state who think they can ride roughshod over Virginia citizens.

Stand with me and let's fix this situation on the 26th!

Dan0076
02-17-2007, 17:44
I wish I could be there! I'll be in Atlanta that week.

Let's make a strong showing and be there in large numbers.

gunman_23
02-17-2007, 17:47
Im there!
I will see if I can bring some friends as well to show our support!

1*45
02-17-2007, 18:27
In years past that was considered to be "abuse of authority". It can also be cosidered abuse of office powers to intimidate.
Could have filed a civil action to that extent as well as internal affairs complaint. I used to hate those.
My .02 worth.

Catbird
02-17-2007, 18:48
btt

SocomCen
02-19-2007, 06:54
There are 3 sides to every story. Don't just listen to 1 of them.

Dan0076
02-19-2007, 13:11
Car pool from Tidewater to Manassas.


Can anyone take a half day off next Monday and join us in going to the
Manassas City Council meeting? This is in regards to the Manassas Police
Departments handling of 7 OCDO members legally having dinner at Tony's
Pizza
in Manassas.


(Sorry if I shouldn't post a link here, delete if needed)
Here's an OCDO thread on it:



http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/1486.html



And here's the thread on VCDL going to Manassas on the 26th, leaving
Tidewater around 2PM.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/1531.html

Dan0076
02-19-2007, 13:21
SocomCen:

Listening to the 911 tape and the officers Emails and other transmissions wasn't enough of their side?


Or do you mean (in the best whinny police officer voice)

'I'm the alpha dog. Those mere citizens should have just taken what I said as the law and obeyed. But they didn't submit. They looked me right in the eye and said they were following the law. Then they started citing laws and I didn't know what to do. DAMIT! I'm the alpha dog.'


You mean that side of the story? Where law abiding citizens refuse to be bullied by officers who wish to enforce personal beliefs instead of written law?

SocomCen
02-19-2007, 19:04
No, I mean I understand what the gun owners wanted to do I just don't agree with the method. I'm a CHP holder and agree the law should be changed so that a person can carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as the person carry isn't drinking.

When the Pizza store owner asked them to leave they should have just left on their own or gone to jail. Being an ass in front of the other citizens who probably know nothing of the guns laws likely just made these 40-60 people into anti-gunners. Arguing with the Police in front of these other people and the Pizza store owner didn't help the cause.

1*45
02-20-2007, 04:10
In over 30 years around and in LE you never get anywhere arguing with the street cop or agent. The citizen will always be on the wrong end of the "Stick". What you need to be is a perfect witness, get a lawyer, press charges, make IA complaints, do it the legal way, you will not always win but you dont suffer physicaly or your laundy ends up in public view. As always on Monday morning things look different from behind the desk, as my Cheif always showed me.
Been there, done that, had that done to me, my .02 worth.

Alaskan454
02-21-2007, 16:26
Originally posted by SocomCen
When the Pizza store owner asked them to leave they should have just left on their own or gone to jail.

They were in the store for 45 minutes before LE was called, and the owner/manager had no problem with them up to that point. LE showed up and created a loud and unnecessary confrontation. In the process they confirmed that no laws were being broken and learned that the citizens would not be intimidated. Then, the officers pressured the manager into asking them to leave, presumably to "save face". At that point, they left.

I agree that it is impossible to win an argument with a cop. That is the purpose of the court system and the other options that 1*45 spoke of. However, an intelligent discussion between two adults, one of whom is a police officer, is possible. Although I was not at Tony's Pizza the night in question, I know a some who were, and I believe that is what was attempted. America is not quite yet a full police state, so it is permissible to speak to an officer - immediate, blind obedience is not always required. When the situation degraded to the level of an argument, folks chose to just leave and file a complaint later.

Goaltender66
02-21-2007, 18:37
Bump to say I'll be in attendance.

Also, open and/or concealed carry is legal in the meeting. Just sayin'.

PVanCleave
02-21-2007, 22:13
VCDL is scheduled to address City Council at **7:30 PM** on Monday. Originally everyone was asked to be there around 5 PM.

Instead, if you can arrive at 7 PM, that would be great and save you two hours of sheer boredom.

gunman_23
02-21-2007, 22:17
I was going to come because it is a VCDL thing and the right thing to do, but now I have to come just to meet all of my fellow GlockTalkers

PVanCleave
02-21-2007, 22:41
Originally posted by gunman_23
I was going to come because it is a VCDL thing and the right thing to do, but now I have to come just to meet all of my fellow GlockTalkers

And you will be easy to pick out as you look exactly like Chuck Norris! ;)

gunman_23
02-21-2007, 22:44
Originally posted by PVanCleave
And you will be easy to pick out as you look exactly like Chuck Norris! ;)

No. Chuck actually grew the beard so we would stop being mistaken for one another.

Actually we were at Pat Goodales class together this last june.
I was the youngest one that was smoking like a damned chimney.
Fortunately I have quit smoking.

Wolfgang
02-22-2007, 11:55
Originally posted by Alaskan454
They were in the store for 45 minutes before LE was called, and the owner/manager had no problem with them up to that point.


Who called the police?

Why were the police called?

Rabbit994
02-22-2007, 12:30
Who called the police?
A patron at the Tony's

Why?

We were just that sexy? He didn't like us? Who knows.

Jerseycitysteve
02-22-2007, 20:23
Originally posted by SocomCen
No, I mean I understand what the gun owners wanted to do I just don't agree with the method. I'm a CHP holder and agree the law should be changed so that a person can carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as the person carry isn't drinking.

When the Pizza store owner asked them to leave they should have just left on their own or gone to jail. Being an ass in front of the other citizens who probably know nothing of the guns laws likely just made these 40-60 people into anti-gunners. Arguing with the Police in front of these other people and the Pizza store owner didn't help the cause.

That for sure. The VCDL is a net loser for gun rights. I can hear it now. "Did you see those men wearing guns that smart mouthed the officer." You guys are playing with fire.

The next time the VCDL pulls another stunt like this I hope they wear buttons that say, "I'm not the NRA."

This bunch reminds me of an 18 year old girl who keeps wearing skimpier bikinis until somebody notices.

In fact, I'm starting to believe that we should change the law to allow concealed weapons where liquor is served if and prohibit open carry like it was in Dodge City and Tombstone.

KONY
02-22-2007, 20:52
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
That for sure. The VCDL is a net loser for gun rights. I can hear it now. "Did you see those men wearing guns that smart mouthed the officer." You guys are playing with fire.

The next time the VCDL pulls another stunt like this I hope they wear buttons that say, "I'm not the NRA."

This bunch reminds me of an 18 year old girl who keeps wearing skimpier bikinis until somebody notices.

In fact, I'm starting to believe that we should change the law to allow concealed weapons where liquor is served if and prohibit open carry like it was in Dodge City and Tombstone.

This is exactly why our community does not get as far as it could. Your statement wreaks of "anti" as they are typically the ones to reference the "Wild West" in relation to carry. :upeyes:

Jerseycitysteve
02-22-2007, 21:02
Originally posted by KONY
This is exactly why our community does not get as far as it could. Your statement wreaks of "anti" as they are typically the ones to reference the "Wild West" in relation to carry. :upeyes:

I believe you mean reeks of "anti." The cowboys of the VDCL wreaks our public image.

KONY
02-22-2007, 21:14
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
I believe you mean reeks of "anti." The cowboys of the VDCL wreaks our public image.

Thanks for the spelling correction. It's one thing to say an organization like the VCDL could use some improvement, but to say that they "wreak" our public image is rediculous. Will no longer comment on your "cowboy" theme as it is beyond words. Reminds me of Saddam.
:puking:

Jerseycitysteve
02-22-2007, 21:17
You're welcome.

gunman_23
02-22-2007, 21:57
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
I believe you mean reeks of "anti." The cowboys of the VDCL wreaks our public image.

The "Cowboys" are hurting the public image of gun owners by not breaking the law?


The "Cowboys" are hurting the public image of gun owners by standing their ground and exercising their rights?


The "Cowboys" should wear buttons that say "Iím not the NRA, we stand up for gun rights even when not popular."


The theory, by police Lt. Barnes is crap. The VCDL members were obeying the law and were hassled because some "Retired Marine" who "has never seen anything like that in 57 years" didnít like it.

The VCDL does not go "fishing for lawsuits".

But boy oh boy, are they ever "Cowboys" because they exercise their rights.

God bless LEOs. They have a hard job and the laws change very often and there are very many laws to remember anyway, but when a citizen refuses to break the law when instructed to by an LEO, the citizen is not at fault and should not be considered a maverick.

You think they VCDL members where bringing down the image of gun owners by not breaking the law when instructed to do so?

Imagine how it would look if they DID follow the incorrect instructions of the MPD?
Try a head line that reads:
"7 members of local gun rights group arrested for firearms felony"
Yeah, that A LOT better for the image of gun owners. :upeyes:

I have been a proud member of the NRA and the VCDL for a few years now. In that time I have seen the VCDL protest and fight for gun rights and individuals, even if they are not members, all over this state in a professional and intelligent manner that promotes the gun owner community far better than the NRA.

While at the NRA HQ when going through the pistol instructor course I was speaking to one of the NRA-ILA attorneys going through the class as well and the subject of the VCDL came up. He stated that he didnít like them because they were "too extreme". I asked if that was because they fought for every member or person who's rights were infringed or because they donít just pick and choose the popular fight?
I never got a straight answer from him. Shocking I know.


JerseyCitySteve, how exactly did these "Cowboys" damage the image of gun owners?

Jerseycitysteve
02-22-2007, 22:31
Good sig line and considering how you conduct yourselves in public darn accurate.

Let me give you some political advice. If a LEO abrogates "your rights," don't argue with the man. Didn't you dad tell you not to argue with the police?

Leave quietly and then go to court. Argue your case in the cool air of the courtroom. The VDCL did great things to change laws and ensure equal application of the law. The Norfolk park situation comes to mind. But in your face open carry is a political loser.

I wish we could poll the other citizens who were at the pizza place that evening. I wonder what they think of the VDCL. I know what Wyatt Earp would think.

gunman_23
02-22-2007, 23:14
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
Good sig line and considering how you conduct yourselves in public darn accurate.

Let me give you some political advice. If a LEO abrogates "your rights," don't argue with the man. Didn't you dad tell you not to argue with the police?

Leave quietly and then go to court. Argue your case in the cool air of the courtroom. The VDCL did great things to change laws and ensure equal application of the law. The Norfolk park situation comes to mind. But in your face open carry is a political loser.

I wish we could poll the other citizens who were at the pizza place that evening. I wonder what they think of the VDCL. I know what Wyatt Earp would think.

My father taught me that an honest and free man should not fear the police. He taught me to stand for what is right, even when it is unpopular. When dealing with the law, be professional and courteous. Do not be afraid.

Have you ever been to a VCDL event? Ever gone out on a group outing or dinner with VCDL members?

We do not swagger around as a group of desperados desperately seeking to scratch an itchy trigger finger.

We are regular citizens. Some of us open carry exclusively, most conceal carry (legally of course). When the law dictates that we can not carry concealed, but do not have to disarm, we follow the law.

We are not a loud or rambunctious group. We donít stare people down or act in a rude fashion. When questioned by regular citizens or LEO's alike, we are professional and courteous. There has never been an incident to my knowledge where a VCDL member has been rude to LEOs or citizens or refused to leave an establishment.

When asked to leave an establishment we do.

According to the accounts and reports, it seems like the LEOs were the aggressors.

Considering this whole incident took place because a customer "had never seen anything like that in 57 years" and felt that it wasnít right is a shame.
And if the VCDL members were such reckless cowboys destroying the image of gun owners by their actions, why were they not arrested?

Iím sure at least one of the eight responding officers could have thought up at least one charge to arrest them on.

This is case of honest citizens doing NOTHING WRONG and respectfully refusing to propagate the idea that owning a firearm and carrying one is wrong.

We live in a world where most of the exposure people, non-gun owner and gun owner alike, get regarding firearms are horrible and tragic events.
Gun ownership is often vilified and considered taboo because of people's limited exposure and ignorance. If the VCDL members did get up and leave right away, even though they donít have to, they would have made EVERYONE in there anti gun. You know why? Because they would have seen the cops come in and the members leave without presenting that they were OBEYING THE LAW, all that would have done is make people think ďWell, they MUST have been wrong. If I were innocent I wouldnít leave.Ē

When VCDL members OC by law and refuse to be bullied they help fight the negative image and force LE agencies to make sure their officers and dispatchers know the law.

You say poll the people in the pizza parlor.
I agree.
Yes, some might feel the VCDL members are in the wrong.
Yes, some might feel the VCDL members were doing nothing wrong.
Yes, some might side against LEOs automatically.
But, some might become curious and learn about the law.

Regardless, this incident will cause people to become knowledgeable of the law.
Some may become anti gunners and if they do that is a shame.
But, some may come to terms that gun rights and the fight for them isnít about a firearm on your hip or your ability to go duck hunting, but instead it is actually a fight ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS!

Iím a gun owner and have grown up with and loved guns for about as long as I can remember. But it was only after I went to a few VCDL meetings did I realize that the fight for the 2nd Amendment is really a fight about my CIVIL RIGHTS.

The way you are classing us VCDL members and lumping us in a bad light says a lot about you.

Did you think Rosa Parks was a "cowgirl who is uppity" too?

I admit this case is not as extreme as what Mrs. Parks faced, but harassment over civil rights and mistreatment IS harassment and mistreatment. The only thing that varies is the intensity of the incident.


BTW, Wyatt Earp would not have thought a single thing. He would have rolled in, asked a few questions, seen that the law wasnt being broken and left.
He was a man when guns were veiwed exactly for what they are. Tools. Nothing more, nothing less.

Alaskan454
02-23-2007, 00:49
+1 gunman_23

Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve ...Let me give you some political advice. If a LEO abrogates "your rights," don't argue with the man. Didn't you dad tell you not to argue with the police?

Leave quietly and then go to court. Argue your case in the cool air of the courtroom.

In case you missed it the first time I said it, or missed it in the various other places that the details of this incident are posted, I will repost part of what I wrote a couple days ago:

"LE showed up and created a loud and unnecessary confrontation. In the process they confirmed that no laws were being broken and learned that the citizens would not be intimidated. Then, the officers pressured the manager into asking them to leave, presumably to "save face". At that point, they left."

They tried to explain to the officers that their behavior was legal, but the officers refused to listen. (See the second paragraph of page 15 of the FOIA pdf available at http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/MCPD_FOIA_Response.pdf ) They did not argue, but instead, tried to have an adult conversation. When it became obvious that such a conversation was not possible, they just left.

Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve The VDCL did great things to change laws and ensure equal application of the law. The Norfolk park situation comes to mind. But in your face open carry is a political loser.

I wish we could poll the other citizens who were at the pizza place that evening. I wonder what they think of the VDCL. I know what Wyatt Earp would think.

They were in the restaurant for nearly 45 minutes, and only one person (someone, who by their accent, almost certainly spent the majority of their "57 years" in a state other than VA - otherwise he would have likely seen folks carrying guns prior to this particular night) gave them a second look. As one who openly carries on a regular basis, it is my experience that few people even notice, and of those who do, most don't care. In 10+ years of nearly daily Open Carry I have only had one person make a negative comment.

Jerseycitysteve
02-23-2007, 08:24
Rosa Parks didn't argue with the police.

Actually, I was a member of the VDCL. I approved of their early work. I strongly disapprove of the VDCL's in your face public display of firearms.

Speaking of the civil rights movement, the issues were decided in the courts. Public opinion was solidly against the Reverend King and Ms. Parks.

Argue in the courts and not in the Pizza places. Don't forget what started the "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral."

I'm not calling anybody a liar, Heaven forbid. Participants are caught up in the moment. Is there account from a disinterested third party?

PVanCleave
02-23-2007, 09:47
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
[B]I strongly disapprove of the VDCL's in your face public display of firearms.

OK, I'll bite. If someone waved a magic wand and you, Steve, were president of VCDL (not sure who VDCL is that you were a member of), what would you ask VCDL members to do when dining out at a restaurant that serves alcohol:

A. Leave your gun in the car
B. Just carry *concealed* and keep your mouth shut about it
C. Carry openly if you wish to carry

And, let's say that an incident like the one at Tony's happened. Would you:

A. Tell the gun owners they deserved to be treated badly by the police because they were open carrying. End of story
B. Assuming they left without saying a word, cover their litigation fees in a lawsuit against Manassas
C. Take the matter up with Manassas government

BTW, we just did a mailing to almost 1,000 gun owners in Manassas about this. That should stir the pot a little.

Jerseycitysteve
02-23-2007, 10:03
B.

Never argue with LEOs. Courts are for arguing.

I let my membership lapse.

I want to say I like you and your fellow members. We are on the same side, in the sense that MLK and Malcolm X were on the same side. I disapprove of these public displays that lead to arguments with the police. All it takes is one jumpy person loosing his nerve and we'd have another OK Corral.

PVanCleave
02-23-2007, 10:52
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
B.

Never argue with LEOs. Courts are for arguing.

I let my membership lapse.

I want to say I like you and your fellow members. We are on the same side, in the sense that MLK and Malcolm X were on the same side. I disapprove of these public displays that lead to arguments with the police. All it takes is one jumpy person loosing his nerve and we'd have another OK Corral.

I assume you choose 'B' for the second question. What was your answer for the FIRST question?

We have 140,000+ CHP holders, many open carrying at restaurants and have been doing so for 10 years, how come now OK Corral yet? We have 30+ every month after VCDL meetings in NoVA. Not a single problem that I have ever heard of. Nobdy fleeing the building in panic, no SWAT teams. Just 30+ people having a good time.

Jerseycitysteve
02-23-2007, 15:26
Sorry Phil.

Question #1 is A.

Question #2 is B.

gunman_23
02-23-2007, 16:45
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
Rosa Parks didn't argue with the police.

Actually, I was a member of the VDCL. I approved of their early work. I strongly disapprove of the VDCL's in your face public display of firearms.

Speaking of the civil rights movement, the issues were decided in the courts. Public opinion was solidly against the Reverend King and Ms. Parks.

Argue in the courts and not in the Pizza places. Don't forget what started the "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral."

I'm not calling anybody a liar, Heaven forbid. Participants are caught up in the moment. Is there account from a disinterested third party?


True. Rosa Parks did not argue with the police. She was arrested though for doing NOTHING WRONG and refusing to submit to someone elseís will when she had no obligation to.

And you are welcome to your distain for the "in your face public display" methods used by VCDL members and firearm owners who refuse to disarm for some misguided notion by the public at large that carrying a firearm is a bad thing.
But I, along with other members of the VCDL and hopefully all people who carry a firearm for personal protection, will continue to carry within the boundaries of the law and refuse to be intimidated or treated as social pariahs because someone is irrationally uncomfortable.

When I carry open or concealed I am on my best behavior. Do you know why? To help to dispel the incorrect image that when a citizen has a gun that they are bad or that it is against the law.

Only through confronting this wrong public image can we overcome it.

KONY
02-23-2007, 18:57
Speaking of the civil rights movement, the issues were decided in the courts.

You mean all the protests, sit-ins and boycotts were done "in the courts" as well?? :headscratch:

PVanCleave
02-23-2007, 19:54
Originally posted by Jerseycitysteve
Sorry Phil.

Question #1 is A.

Question #2 is B.

OK - thanks for your candidness, Steve.

I guess that's the biggest gap between us. You don't see a need to be armed 24/7, while I do. I am armed whenever I legally can be. And leaving my gun in the car when I can legally bring it with me is NOT an option for me and many other people.

Open carry in restaurants is not an in-your-face thing for me, but I will take whatever options the law gives me. If someone is 'uncomfortable' with the choice thrust upon me by the General Assembly, too bad.

If we ever repeal the restaurant ban, I'm sure I will be carry concealed most of the time. Until then, I don't make the laws, but I do obey them.

Slinger646
02-23-2007, 19:59
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

gunman_23
02-23-2007, 20:34
Originally posted by PVanCleave
OK - thanks for your candidness, Steve.

I guess that's the biggest gap between us. You don't see a need to be armed 24/7, while I do. I am armed whenever I legally can be. And leaving my gun in the car when I can legally bring it with me is NOT an option for me and many other people.

Open carry in restaurants is not an in-your-face thing for me, but I will take whatever options the law gives me. If someon is 'uncomfortable' with the choice thrust up me by the General Assembly, too bad.

If we ever repeal the restaurant ban, I'm sure I will be carry concealed most of the time. Until then, I don't make the laws, but I do obey them.

Keep in mind the 57 year old "Marine" apparently was so upset by the event, he and his wife finished their meal and left 45 minutes after observing the VCDL memebers come in and exhibiting their "in your face" attitude by not making a scene and trying to enjoy their meal quietly.



:thumbsup:

sigpro357
02-24-2007, 04:38
I'll tell you what upsests me. When you ask police on this board. What laws will you enforce? Is every law sacred even if you feel it is morally wrong, and goes against your ideals.

Each time they respond. We don't choose the laws we enforce. We just follow them

Well if they were following them in Manassas they would have never said anything to these men. Because they weren't breaking the law.

What's amazing is if they arrest ticket or talk to you about a paticular behavior then you are breaking the law.

But when they are harrassing you for no reason IE no law breaking on your part. Then your a cowboy, and a rebel looking to push the limits.

This feeds into my idea which is alot of officers have a chip on their shoulder to begin with. Is it smart to argue with them. Probably not because your gonna loose. Shouldn't you be able to discuss an issue with them remain civil and common sense prevail? But that isn't how it seems to go.

TheEggman
02-24-2007, 06:59
"If you fail to exercise a right for fear of losing it, you already have."



The Tony's incident is primarily about abuse of authority, and getting distracted by the Open/Concealed carry debate accomplishes nothing.

A 'gang banger' with a machete can 'walk' into a room.

According to the media, however, a gun-owner in a suit & tie, with a $1,200.00 defensive firearm in a $150.00 holster can't do that.

For some reason we're always reported as 'swaggering' into the room, (whatever that is) with a 'cannon' strapped 'gunslinger style' to our hip.

As for the VCDL being too extreme, isn't that what "Shall Not Be Infringed" (PERIOD - END OF SENTENCE) -- is all about?

VCDL is only as extreme about the 2nd as the media is about the 1st.


My Position: (FWIW) I PREFER to carry concealed, BUT when the law or other circumstances dictate that I carry openly, I am within my rights to do so. The fact that the very sight of my defensive sidearm freaks out the occasional uneducated liberal is their problem and does not abrogate my rights.

I keep an NRA membership even though I believe they have 'compromised' too many times. That's where we came up with the 20,000 or so 'reasonable' (but ineffective) gun laws on the books today.

There can be no compromise on an absolute right and VCDL refuses to do so.

Best and stay safe...

gunman_23
02-24-2007, 08:53
Originally posted by TheEggman
"If you fail to exercise a right for fear of losing it, you already have."



The Tony's incident is primarily about abuse of authority, and getting distracted by the Open/Concealed carry debate accomplishes nothing.

A 'gang banger' with a machete can 'walk' into a room.

According to the media, however, a gun-owner in a suit & tie, with a $1,200.00 defensive firearm in a $150.00 holster can't do that.

For some reason we're always reported as 'swaggering' into the room, (whatever that is) with a 'cannon' strapped 'gunslinger style' to our hip.

As for the VCDL being too extreme, isn't that what "Shall Not Be Infringed" (PERIOD - END OF SENTENCE) -- is all about?

VCDL is only as extreme about the 2nd as the media is about the 1st.


My Position: (FWIW) I PREFER to carry concealed, BUT when the law or other circumstances dictate that I carry openly, I am within my rights to do so. The fact that the very sight of my defensive sidearm freaks out the occasional uneducated liberal is their problem and does not abrogate my rights.

I keep an NRA membership even though I believe they have 'compromised' too many times. That's where we came up with the 20,000 or so 'reasonable' (but ineffective) gun laws on the books today.

There can be no compromise on an absolute right and VCDL refuses to do so.

Best and stay safe...


+100!

Eggman, I hope to see you and many other VCDL members and non members on here monday.

DKSuddeth
02-24-2007, 14:35
jerseycitysteves attitude about open carry, and alot of those like him, are just a part of what will eventually destroy our right to keep and bear arms. WE, as gunowners, can't even come together on who, when, where, how, and why anyone should carry. With this kind of division, it's no wonder the anti's and statists can continue to chip away at the right.

If we want to have any hope of keeping our arms on our persons, we need to acknowledge and understand that the right is absolute, that there is no room for 'reasonable' regulation. There is no credible advantage of concealed carry over open carry, the advantage is only perceived. There is always a negative from hunters not speaking up because an AWB doesn't affect their rifle and shotgun.

get it together fellow americans, for if we don't hang together, we will surely hang seperately.

Truckee
02-24-2007, 17:09
JerseyCity,

We have crossed posts on this board a couple of times. In the past, I have attempted to see your POV on issues. I did this for the respect of your opinions and in the attempt to educate myself, in case I was missing something along the way. Now days, for the life of me, I cannot see how a gun-owner and CHP holder harbors some of the views that you do. I continue to respect your positions, but I disagree with most of them... as it seems you do with most of ours.

Once upon a time, I was an avid hunter. Many years ago, I watched as one of my prey suffered over a destructive, but non-fatal shot. The suffering and hopelessness in that animal's eyes turned me against the sport. As a personal decision, I stopped hunting and have not since been a predator of wildlife. However and to this day, I continue to support the sport and still love a walk in the woods. I continue to buy the license and I support hunting as well as hunter's, their decisions and their rights. My position is that hunters are consumers, gun-owners and shooters... and we all have to stick together. I use this paragraph as a personal example. Although I am no longer interested in one aspect of firearms usage, I can and do, look at the bigger picture of gun ownership.

I agree that one should not 'argue' with LEO. However, I do not agree that a civil conversation cannot be conducted between two (et al) adults. The only -chats- that I've seen gone awry between citizens and cops are when the citizens are in the wrong or the cop(s) are pompous and badge-heavy. I have always welcomed a civil discussion when the situation allows.

I can offer my hypothetical actions at Tony's. Post sizing-up the situation and seeing that these men were patrons, whom happened to be carrying handguns, I would have pulled up a chair and had a quick chat. Then, I would have gotten up, exited and gone forth to handle bigger problems. Here again, age and wisdom have eroded my badge-heavy pompousness (most of the time anyhow), but certainly when unwarranted.

Before anyone says that the police should never have been there in the first place... or that I (as the cop) did not have cause to approach these men. I say that a citizen call had been made and that there are too many lawyers and brass waiting for the police to simply disregard that sort of call.

Steve,
I ask you to re-join the VCDL. I ask you to reconsider the bigger picture of gun ownership. I too regret that the political air of late dictates a no compromise or middle-ground stance. The antis don't give any, therefore we cannot. Not liking the color of a Ferrari should have no impact on fully appreciating the way it handles.

dbrowne1
02-25-2007, 15:31
Originally posted by gunman_23
True. Rosa Parks did not argue with the police. She was arrested though for doing NOTHING WRONG and refusing to submit to someone elseís will when she had no obligation to.


Rosa Parks was arrested because she violated what was, at the time, the law. People carrying openly in VA aren't even violating the letter of the law, yet they are being harrassed and being referred to by LEOs as "assclowns."

Some of the things I read in that FOIA response, and the attitudes displayed therein, scare me. Too many to list. The best is the response that puts "right to bear arms" in quotes, as though we pulled the concept out of our asses and as though it doesn't exist in the VA or U.S. constitutions.

Those officers should should be transferred to a third world dictatorship where their attitudes would be more appropriate, not reprimanded and kept around to take out their grudges on gun owners in the future.

They seem to have this idea that VCDL is systematically probing PD responses or trolling for a lawsuit. The way I look at it, the government (and NOVA agencies in particular) are probing gun owners to test our responses and resolve to see how much they can push us around and enforce their own ideas of how and where guns can be carried, instead of doing their jobs and enforcing the Code. Their entire attitude reeks of typical self-serving government agency hubris, concerned with their own power and agenda rather than serving their communities by enforcing the law created by elected officials.

The theme that I take away from this whole situation is that this agency is frustrated that the Code, which they supposedly enforce but apparently have not actually read until this incident, doesn't allow them to take any real action against people open carrying. Evidently, actually reading the Code makes one "hyper aware" of its provisions. That in itself is frightening, given that these people have the authority to ruin lives by enforcing the Code - or what they think the Code says.

dbrowne1
02-25-2007, 16:29
Phillip-

I'm sure you've already thought of this, but have you contacted any Manassass (or NOVA generally) business/restaurant owners who might be willing to come speak at the meeting, and indicate that they don't mind open carry or even encourage it in their establishments?

These officers seem to think that it's beyond question that all business owners are against lawful carry. That is definitely not the case.

RandySmith
02-25-2007, 23:46
OK, I'll bite. If someone waved a magic wand and you, Steve, were president of VCDL (not sure who VDCL is that you were a member of), what would you ask VCDL members to do when dining out at a restaurant that serves alcohol:

A. Leave your gun in the car
B. Just carry *concealed* and keep your mouth shut about it
C. Carry openly if you wish to carry


How about choice D?

D. Spend your money elsewhere.

Choice B isn't too bad either, since there is no punishment for breaking this law - not that I am advocating such.

Something else that bothers me is the wording often used claiming that VA law *requires* you to open carry in an establishment that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption.

The implication here (and problem) is that VA law requires you to carry. VA law does not require you to carry.

*IF* you choose to carry in such an establishment, VA law requires that you do not conceal the handgun.

Randy

PVanCleave
02-26-2007, 07:01
Originally posted by RandySmith
How about choice D?

D. Spend your money elsewhere.

Choice B isn't too bad either, since there is no punishment for breaking this law - not that I am advocating such.

Something else that bothers me is the wording often used claiming that VA law *requires* you to open carry in an establishment that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption.

The implication here (and problem) is that VA law requires you to carry. VA law does not require you to carry.

*IF* you choose to carry in such an establishment, VA law requires that you do not conceal the handgun.

Randy

Randy,

Option D would only make sense in places with 'no guns' signs, unless you are willing to totally give up eating in restaurants that happen to serve alcohol.

Darren,

We haven't contact any of the businesses. I think it is pretty clear from the lack of 'no guns' signs on 99% of businesses that they are not overly concerned about it.


Philip

KONY
02-26-2007, 07:05
Originally posted by RandySmith

Something else that bothers me is the wording often used claiming that VA law *requires* you to open carry in an establishment that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption.

The implication here (and problem) is that VA law requires you to carry. VA law does not require you to carry.

*IF* you choose to carry in such an establishment, VA law requires that you do not conceal the handgun.

Randy

Randy,

With all due respect, I hardly think anyone interprets the open carry laws in this manner but I may be wrong. If so, then I guess it's good to make this clear. However, from your post, I still get the impression that you are against open carry and that you'd rather leave your firearm in your car than carry openly. Is this accurate?

dbrowne1
02-26-2007, 10:51
Originally posted by RandySmith

Choice B isn't too bad either, since there is no punishment for breaking this law - not that I am advocating such.


You could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon under 18.2-308. The Code says that carrying a concealed weapon is illegal, except for certain enumerated exceptions. One of those exceptions is carrying if you have a permit, BUT the Code makes clear that the permit does not allow you to carry concealed in any establishment licensed to serve alcohol for on premises consumption. In other words, if you carry concealed inside an alcohol-serving establishment, it is legally the same as carrying concealed w/o a permit on the street.

So, you are violating 18.2-308 and would be subject to its penalties if caught.

bulwaagh
02-26-2007, 15:00
I'm sure that Randy's well aware of the implications and the code. :supergrin:

Not to say that I will publicly agree with his version of "B" but let's just say, I can see his point of view. :whistling:

dbrowne1
02-26-2007, 18:20
Originally posted by bulwaagh
I'm sure that Randy's well aware of the implications and the code. :supergrin:

Not to say that I will publicly agree with his version of "B" but let's just say, I can see his point of view. :whistling:

Yes, perhaps I misinterpreted his statement about "no punishment." There is some truth to the old adage that "it's only a crime if you get caught," but certainly I don't advocate this course, either.

gunman_23
02-27-2007, 09:35
You all missed something special!

In the Manassas city council chamber there is roughly 100 seats.

I think there were 7 people that were not VCDL affiliated or in support.

We filled almost every seat ourselves, there were members all along the back, down the sides of the seating area, and out into the hall.

Over 160 *****-clowns (if you are Manassas PD) or over 160 "in your face cowboys ruining the image of gun owners" if you are JerseyCitySteve

P. Van Cleave spoke for 10 minutes, then we had speakers come to the mic and express their feelings in passionate and professional manners for up to three minutes each. Our members spoke for an hour and a half thanks to those 3 minute periods.

I was happy to express my concerns and thanks to fellow VCDL member Ian, I have a pic of it.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/gunman_23/Myspace%20War/vcdl2.jpg


Here is the VCDL alert that came out this morning


VCDL's Gun Dealer Legal Defense Fund -- help fight Mayor Bloomberg's
scheme to cripple Virginia firearms dealers. See: www.vcdl.org/index.html#DefenseFund
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe or change your email address, please follow the
directions at the end of this message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's 3:45 AM, I'm still wired, there could be 'type-os' in this (sorry). I simply don't know what better sums it up than "!!WOW!!" There were way over 100 VCDL members and supporters at the Manassas City Council meeting tonight.

The Manassas City Council members were clearly shocked by the numbers.

The Mayor led off by saying that he could not remember ever seeing such a large crowd for **anything** they had done before!

I brought 40 'Guns Save Lives' badges that were distributed in minutes, leaving over half of the people without a badge. :-(

We not only filled up all the seating (100 seats - about 95% of them VCDL members), we lined BOTH walls and ran out into the hall!

A good portion of the members were open carrying during the meeting. No uniformed officers in sight (but there were some plain clothes officers in the audience).

I led off, taking 10 minutes to describe the situation, describing the problem with officers who would abuse their power to coerce the restaurant owner to kick the 7 innocent gun owners out, and calling for the SEVERE reprimand or FIRING of Officers Chad Hyland, Rickey Clodfelter, and Tina Pannell. Hyland and Clodfelter for their total disdain for law-abiding gun owners and coercing the restaurant owner into kicking out the gun owners, and Pannell because as a SUPERVISOR she should have known better and put a stop to the 'kicking out the good guys' situation. I did say that a demotion would be acceptable for her, but that she clearly was not an acceptable supervisor.

When I was finished, the Mayor read a letter from Chief Skinner, saying, fairly enough, that he couldn't comment as there was an active investigation into the matter.

I was followed one speaker after the other for over 1.5 hours - each person getting three minutes!

The speakers were all superb, showing City Council, in no uncertain terms, that none of us are 'assclowns.'

Also THREE of the 7 gun owners at Tony's that fateful night spoke.

The Mayor was very congenial and several speakers made a point of thanking City Council for making the audience feel 'at home' (but still asking Council to fix the problem at hand). We had speakers come from over 200 miles away and a good share were Manassas residents, too!

After the meeting, 30 of us headed over to a local IHOP for a meal.

Everyone was jubilant - as we all had felt the power and comradery in the City Council Room that night. For many this was their first experience going from a gun-rights supporter to a gun-rights activist. Caution! I don't think there is anyway to go back, either. ;-)

Member Matt Gottshalk was there making a professional quality video which will be online in a day or two for those of you who would like to see and hear key parts of the meeting. He will cut it down to 6 speakers - myself, Jim Snyder, Dennis O'Connor, and three of the seven people at Tony's Pizza that fateful night in January. I will send an alert when the video is ready to view.

Channel 4 (NBC) in NoVA already ran a story on the meeting at 11 PM.

The Potomac News story covering the meeting is below. It is very well done and includes a picture to put things in perspective. Reporter Elisa Glushefski explains the Virginia open carry laws in the article, too - an additional bonus!

In case you are wondering about my elaborate hand gesture - I was turning to ask all gun owners who were in support of VCDL's position to raise their hand.

They did and, boy, was that a lot of hands in the air!

BTW, this was the single biggest turnout for a VCDL action at any city, town, or county government meeting ever! We can turn out 60 members under good conditions, but over 100 is way beyond the norm! Tidewater held the record when we attended a Norfolk City Council meeting some years ago, but Northern Virginia has just thrown down the gauntlet big time! ;-)

As long as we can turn out lots of gun owners for things such as this and, standing shoulder-to-shoulder, do what we did so very well tonight, we will continue to be a force to be reckoned with in Virginia.

GOOD WORK, VCDL! I'M PROUD OF YOU!

http://************/ywueut

Gun rights group takes case to council
By ELISA A. GLUSHEFSKI
eglushefski@potomacnews.com
Tuesday, February 27, 2007


More than 50 gun rights advocates protested police conduct during an incident at a city restaurant with some calling for the firing of several of the officers involved at Monday night's Manassas City Council meeting. [It was more than 50, but it was also well over 100, too. - PVC]

The public outcry comes two weeks after Springfield-resident Russ Troxel filed a complaint against the police department about an incident involving him and six friends who were openly carrying their weapons while dining at Tony's New York Pizza on Mathis Avenue on the evening of Jan. 13.

A second complaint was filed Friday by Fairfax resident Mark Anderson who states that among other things the officers overstepped their authority by "coercing" the owner of Tony's to kick them out after they had already been there for nearly an hour.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League Inc., asked at the meeting that three of the seven responding officers - Tina Pannell, Chad Hyland and Rickey Clodfelter - be reprimanded or fired.

Van Cleave said that as the supervisor at the scene, Pannell should have taken control of the situation and told the other officers that they were legally allowed to openly carry their weapons there.

"If the police can't do this right then we've got a big problem," he said.

The incident started with a 911 call from an unnamed man who reported that the men's guns were making him uncomfortable.

It was the initial antagonistic attitude of Hyland, who demanded IDs from the men even though they weren't committing a crime, and the officer's ignorance of the law that Troxel's and others said is unacceptable.

Troxel, who was among those who attended the meeting, said the officers also refused to accept paperwork documenting the state's open-carry law.

Police Chief John J. Skinner said he would like to comment publicly but can't because the complaints are part of an internal investigation.

The timeline for the investigation could be extended if new information or witnesses is revealed, he said, adding that he plans to discuss the new complaint with the investigator today.

The men say they were within their rights because Virginia law requires that weapons be carried in the open in places that serve alcohol.

And while carrying a concealed weapon requires a court-issued permit, no permit is required to carry a gun in the open.

The manager of Tony's has said that the men were asked to leave because of several complaints the restaurant received from regular customers.

In Anderson's complaint, he also says that one of the officers cursed at him "repeatedly" throughout the incident.

At least two of the officers refer to the men "assclowns" and "retards" in intradepartmental messages and e-mails that were obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request by Mike Stollenwerk, one of the founders of Open carry.org.

In an e-mail Clodfelter sent five of the other officers the day after the incident, he copied the state code that prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons in any place that serves alcohol and concludes that they were legally allowed to carry their guns openly that night.

In the same e-mail, Clodfelter also wrote: "My guess is the over-compensating assclowns at Tony's were hyper-aware of all this, and that's why they started crying like little babies when their event got spoiled by the whole 'let's get the owner to tell them to get the f-- out' thing."

Troxel and the six other men are members of a forum on Opencarry.org.

Skinner said he would release the findings of the internal investigation when it is completed.



***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL).
VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to
defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org





We had members show up from all over the state to support our fellow gun owners.
I cannot express how proud I am of my fellow members and how proud I am to be a member of this organization!

Like I said last night, violations of our civil rights cannot be tolerated. Harassment of citizens for exercising their freedom of speech or practicing their religion would not be tolerated, so why should violations of the second amendment be tolerated? The only difference between the second amendment and all others is that the second is tangible.

Jerseycitysteve
02-27-2007, 09:54
The "Manassas ***clowns" would make a good name for a professional sports team.

I commend you for your meeting at the city council. That's how to do it. The cowboys were wearing their white hats.:thumbsup:

Slinger646
02-27-2007, 15:27
Way to kick ass guys!! Wish I could have been there with yall!

PVanCleave
02-27-2007, 22:54
As promised, here are some video of 6 of the many speakers. The first video has me, Dennis O'Connor, and Jim Snyder. On the second video there are three of the people who were harassed at Tony's - Andrew Amarine, Michael Landstreet (listen to this guy's resume!), and Mark Anderson:

http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/VCDL_Manassas.wmv
http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/tonys3of7.wmv

SelfDefender207
02-28-2007, 06:00
Mr. VanCleave, Who would I contact about being a paying memeber of VCDL?

TScottW99
02-28-2007, 06:19
Originally posted by SelfDefender207
Mr. VanCleave, Who would I contact about being a paying memeber of VCDL?

Here you go.... http://www.vcdl.org/static/join.html

Tvov
02-28-2007, 06:43
Originally posted by gunman_23
A good portion of the members were open carrying during the meeting. .

Hmm... You folks are allowed to carry at a meeting like that? That makes me want to check on Connecticut gun laws. I was under the assumption that in CT during public "official" meetings, guns are not allowed to be carried at the meeting. Actually, that might be covered by rules regarding carrying in town and state buildings, which means you can't (as far as I am aware).

Interesting thread!

vafish
02-28-2007, 09:49
Originally posted by Tvov
Hmm... You folks are allowed to carry at a meeting like that?

Yes, as long as it's not held on school grounds or in a court house.

longwatch2k1
02-28-2007, 22:32
As one of the Tonys 7 I just wanted to thank Philip and VCDL and everyone who showed up monday night. It was greatly appreciated and I was really impressed at the turnout and the very effective speakers for the cause.

PVanCleave
02-28-2007, 23:21
Originally posted by longwatch2k1
As one of the Tonys 7 I just wanted to thank Philip and VCDL and everyone who showed up monday night. It was greatly appreciated and I was really impressed at the turnout and the very effective speakers for the cause.

No need to thank me. Wild horses couldn't have kept me away. :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse: :horse:

I had to laugh when I got there because Dennis O'Connor, who is working down in Tidewater, had called me earlier that day to say he just didn't see how he could do an 7 hour round trip and get to work the next day.

I told him I understood, but in the back of my mind I was betting that wild horses couldn't keep him away either. :thumbsup:

watsoncb
03-01-2007, 01:29
Falls Church

Manassas

:perfect10:

Truckee
03-01-2007, 09:05
Nice job in Manassas guys!

Just because the meeting is over does not mean that this issue should be forgotten. Keep the pressure on until the City disciplines its rogue cops.

For those of us that could not attend the meeting, please send your protests to the City of Manassas (http://www.manassascity.org/forms.asp?fid=form_feedbackform.asp) .

Work prevented me from attending the meeting. However, they can bet I sent an email.


Mr. VanCleave:
Please keep us posted concerning Manassas and its actions against those officers.

Truckee
03-02-2007, 09:26
Originally posted by Truckee
Just because the meeting is over does not mean that this issue should be forgotten. Keep the pressure on until the City disciplines its rogue cops.

For those of us that could not attend the meeting, please send your protests to the City of Manassas (http://www.manassascity.org/forms.asp?fid=form_feedbackform.asp) .

Colonel John J. Skinner replied to my email the same day.
This email is to acknowledge receipt of your recent email expressing concerns regarding the conduct of Manassas Police Officers who responded to an incident at Tony's Restaurant, 9108 Mathis Avenue on the evening of January 13, 2007.

Prior to receipt of your email, an internal investigation was ongoing at my direction. I assure you that all appropriate reviews and actions will be addressed.

Colonel John J. Skinner
Chief of Police
Manassas City Police Department
9518 Fairview Avenue
Manassas, Virginia 20110
Telephone: (703) 257-8001
Fax: (703) 368-6966
JSkinner@ci.manassas.va.us

MikeB
06-01-2007, 13:22
I know this is an old topic, but does anyone know the outcome of the "internal investigation"?

vafish
06-01-2007, 18:41
Originally posted by MikeB
I know this is an old topic, but does anyone know the outcome of the "internal investigation"?

The city pretty much said "We're sorry you were offended, we'll train our officers not to type naughty text messages to each other"

Texas357
06-03-2007, 14:39
Originally posted by vafish
The city pretty much said "We're sorry you were offended, we'll train our officers not to type naughty text messages to each other"

Which pretty much meant they trained the officers not to leave incriminating evidence of misbehavior? They taught officers what to write in their reports when they do this the next time?

vafish
06-03-2007, 18:18
Originally posted by Texas357
Which pretty much meant they trained the officers not to leave incriminating evidence of misbehavior? They taught officers what to write in their reports when they do this the next time?

Exactly

Hunterjbb
06-03-2007, 19:16
Originally posted by vafish
The city pretty much said "We're sorry you were offended, we'll train our officers not to type naughty text messages to each other"

You have a group of officers already full of themselves now looking for any excuse to stick it to a gun owner.. my opinion..

I think how this whole situation was handled was done exceptionally well by the VCDL and the gun owners at the resteraunt, unfortuneatley the by product maybe some officers who now feel slighted.. which normally is not a good thing..

Jeff.

PVanCleave
06-04-2007, 12:27
more FOIAs have been filed as digging into this continues.