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RoyRNC
02-18-2007, 19:01
I was at my local grocery store today and ran into a shooting buddy. He asked if I normally carry when going to this specific shopping/strip mall. He then proceeds to show me a sign that you would never have noticed unless you were looking for it. It was behind the 4th pillar away from the store entrance. It was on the opposite side as well. There is no parking on that side so you would never see it just walking in. He also told me that every store in the whole stip mall was "no carry" b/c of this sign.

My question is what laws will I break if I carry into one of the stores. How severe of a punishment could I face? Has anyone been in this circumstance and did a manager just tell you to leave or call the police?

I've got the number of the property management company and although I am pretty sure I can't convince them to take it down, should I at least tell them to post it fairly?

Shopping somewhere else is not an option unfortunately.

RickJZ
02-18-2007, 19:06
honestly, as long as you have a permit, concealed is concealed; no worries unless there are metal detectors.

geekboy
02-18-2007, 19:10
You'd be in violation of 14-415.11(c). In my home state of Florida, signs have no power of law. However, in North Carolina, signs do in fact have power of law.

However, 14-415.11(c) clearly states that the sign must be in a "conspicuous" place.where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premisesThis violation is a misdemeanor under NC law.

14‑415. Violation made misdemeanor.

Any person violating any of the provisions of this Article, except as otherwise specified in said Article, shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor, except that it is a Class 1 misdemeanor if the exhibition is indoors.Regarding the sign placement, I would call or write the mall management company and ask them to remove it. Tell them that criminals don't read those signs anyhow and will still carry. (Case in point the mall shooting at Trolley Square in SLC.)

Short of that, tell them that the sign placement is not "conspicous" and that no one would ever see it anyhow. Try to lobby for them to change the sign to read "no illegal possession of firearms or weapons" instead of "no firearms or weapons". :)

FYI: I'm also a homeowner and resident of Charlotte, N.C. as well as Florida... drives me nuts when I go to N.C. I basically leave my gun home when I go to Charlotte, because your CC laws confuse me!

geekboy
02-18-2007, 19:18
Also, talk to the mall owners not the property management company (PMC). When calling the PMC, ask them for the owner's phone number. THe PMC only represents the owners and while they are in legal control of the property, they probably won't budge.

Bogey
02-18-2007, 20:46
I would rather just let it lie.....if you get stopped for any reason, you can ask, "sign? What sign?"

They MUST place it CONSPICUOUSLY! If you tell them the error of their ways, they'll just move it to the center of the door.

Rob1035
02-19-2007, 06:27
where was this?

wilsoni91
02-19-2007, 09:13
Again it all comes down to one thing and it is a good rule of thumb. If you think it may be wrong or even questionable then most likely it is. I mean are you going to jeopardize your CCW permit?

RoyRNC
02-19-2007, 11:50
Originally posted by Rob1035
where was this?

Matthews Festival shopping center. Corner of Independence Blvd and HWY 51.

I also heard the strip mall across the street from the Carolina Place mall also has a hidden sign, but I don't know that personally just via a friend.

scnative
02-19-2007, 22:33
RoyRNC....Is that the Harris Teeter you're talking about that has the sign posted? I haven't been in there in years, but I was thinking maybe they still have one of those mini Bank of America branches inside and that's why the sign is there. :dunno:

BTW, this is my first post on GT. I been lurking for a long while. Seems like alot of level-headed guys post here in the Carolina section. I live in Fort Mill but I have always worked in Charlotte and lived in the Steele Creek area for several years.

RoyRNC
02-20-2007, 11:34
Originally posted by scnative
RoyRNC....Is that the Harris Teeter you're talking about that has the sign posted?

Yup, its still a Harris Teeter. You are correct, they do have a mini BOA inside. However I've been told that this sign is apparently for all the shops in the center.

medic1213
02-22-2007, 09:48
*** Come on guys, you all know Eric doesn't want illegal activities disclosed here, no matter how stupid the laws may be***

13bullets
02-22-2007, 19:36
Is this legal? No, not really, but are the criminals gonna obey that sign?

So, by your own definition...

medic1213
02-22-2007, 22:29
Originally posted by 13bullets
So, by your own definition...

By my own definition what? I'm a criminal? I guess if you wanna call me that. Hell, I even go faster than the posted speed limit too. Been doing that longer than I've been carrying concealed, so I guess I was a criminal to begin with. Never shoulda been given my permit I guess. Then again, maybe I shouldn't have gotten my CHP to begin with, since criminals don't have to worry about those signs anyway. Actually, I consider myself to be an upstanding citizen, contributing to society on a fairly regular basis.

13bullets
02-23-2007, 09:07
My point is that, as a ccw holder, you should recognize the laws of carrying and be responsible enough to obey them. It has nothing to do with how fast you drive, it has to do with your weapon, and the responsibilities you agreed to take on when you chose to carry.

On one hand, you are condemning those who do not obey that sign as criminals. On the other, you are ok with the fact that you disobey that same sign, and see nothing wrong with it. You can't have it both ways, either all that disobey that sign are criminals, or all are not. I know which way the law will see it.

The best thing to do is not patronize those places that do not allow weapons while carrying, or do not patronize them at all.

medic1213
02-23-2007, 11:22
Well, looks like my other post has been 'edited' (aka: deleted), but I digress...

Anyway, as far as the reference to driving fast being different from carrying where posted otherwise, I gotta ask... Are the posted speed limits not laws? Are you not breaking the law when you speed? After all, it's a sign, posted in a prominent location, right? As for the reference to the signs not affecting criminals, I was referring to the fact that criminals are not allowed to carry anyway, so if they are already breaking the law by carrying an illegal weapon, they sure as hell aren't gonna pay attention to the sign on the door. They definitely aren't gonna abide by it if they are entering the store for the sole purpose of performing an illegal act with their illegal weapon which they are illegally carrying. It's those thugs that I prefer to be able to protect myself from.

So, tell me, how do you handle the situation that I mentioned which you commonly face when carrying at a mall? If it's posted as a no carry, it's posted on a sign that you gotta read a bunch of fine print just to get to a single comment about not carrying. What about all the other entrances to the mall where there are no signs? Are you breaking the law if you entered through, say, Belk's where there is no sign posted at that entrance? Are we supposed to survey every entrance to check for some message buried in a "Mall Code of Conduct" wall sign? By NC law the way I was taught, it has to be posted conspicuously at every entrance. Also, if I remember correctly, the signs are also supposed to display the 'universal' gun with the red circle/slash through it indicating it's not allowed in a 'universal' language, since not everybody can read English.

engineer151515
02-23-2007, 11:30
All I'll say is when I lived in California (many moons ago), there were times when I preferred being judged by 12 over being carried by 6.

That may sound bad, but the fact was I saw Grand Juries refuse to indite crime victims (involved in shooting cases) even though they technically broke the law in defending themselves with a gun.

It's a big boy's game. Make your decision and live with the consequences.

13bullets
02-23-2007, 12:09
You are correct that every entrance has to be posted, and that it has to be conspicuous. So carry away at establishments such as malls that do not meet the criteria. How does this relate to your previous statement of "I carry regardless, sign or not?"

Who doesn't speed, and what does speeding have to do with carrying a gun? (rhetorical) And ask all you want, speeding is not the issue here, lets stay on the subject we are speaking of.

medic1213
02-23-2007, 12:29
Originally posted by 13bullets
How does this relate to your previous statement of "I carry regardless, sign or not?"

Well, the powers-that-be would prefer me not to answer this question, as it might 'condone illegal activity', so I'll leave it alone. Maybe we can agree to disagree. I'll choose to carry when and where I see fit, and you do the same. If that decision causes me problems in the future, I'll deal with them at that point. No sense in me arguing my position on an internet forum, as it serves no real purpose. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my feelings... as mentioned above. Sometimes you gotta ask yourself which you prefer... to be judged by 12 or carried by 6.

Who doesn't speed, and what does speeding have to do with carrying a gun? (rhetorical) And ask all you want, speeding is not the issue here, lets stay on the subject we are speaking of.

You sound like an intelligent, well-spoken individual, so I find it doubtful you don't get the reference I'm making. The point being that, is it ok to condone breaking one law over another? You seem to agree that everybody speeds. This is breaking the law just as choosing to carry in an establishment marked otherwise. I can assure you, being a paramedic, I've seen more harm come from speeding than I have from an otherwise law-abiding citizen that chooses to not leave his sidearm in the car when running into a 7-11 for a snack when it's posted as not allowed. Again, I'll leave this topic open, as I'm sure I'm not gonna change your mind, just as you are not gonna change my mind.

Take care

G26man
02-28-2007, 15:40
From what I can find at packing.org I can't confirm this, but what I have been told by CCW instructors is that if you do carry in a private business that is posted against it and are discovered doing so, even if the police are called you will not be charged unless you refuse to leave at the managers request. So while it technically might be a misdemeanor, I believe it is not treated as a crime so long as you respect the management's wishes should you be discovered and asked to leave.

geekboy
02-28-2007, 16:00
Originally posted by G26man
From what I can find at packing.org I can't confirm this, but what I have been told by CCW instructors is that if you do carry in a private business that is posted against it and are discovered doing so, even if the police are called you will not be charged unless you refuse to leave at the managers request. So while it technically might be a misdemeanor, I believe it is not treated as a crime so long as you respect the management's wishes should you be discovered and asked to leave. I live in Charlotte but my primary residence is in Florida. In Florida, signs have no power of law in regards to the CCW off-limit places. I understand in N.C. that signs DO have the power of law. Therefore, in N.C., if you disobey a sign, you "could" be arrested and charged with misdemeanor armed trespass.

I wouldn't want to be the test case for an overzealous prosecutor or police department. I just don't see how you construct (in the N.C. law) that you have to be issued a "tresspass warrant" (or warning) in order for you not to just be immediately charged.

Let's break it down. In Florida, you're not trespassing until you've been notified in writing or verbally that you are a persona-non-grata. So, before the police can arrest you, you must have been given a trespass warrant (something they do in Florida often). If the person returns or refuses to leave, then you can "trespass" them and have them arrested. This is regardless of whether they have a weapon or not. The weapon just makes it armed trespass.

In your scenario, you are already breaking the law N.C. General Statutes 14-415.11. There is nothing in 14-415.11 which states that you must be "tresspassed" for the law to apply. Where in the statutes does it read that "any other premises" need to warn you? The sign carries the power of law, and is, thus, also a warning. :)

MrsKitty
02-28-2007, 17:15
Originally posted by G26man
From what I can find at packing.org I can't confirm this, but what I have been told by CCW instructors is that if you do carry in a private business that is posted against it and are discovered doing so, even if the police are called you will not be charged unless you refuse to leave at the managers request. So while it technically might be a misdemeanor, I believe it is not treated as a crime so long as you respect the management's wishes should you be discovered and asked to leave.

I think local politics would be a major factor here. What you can get away with in the town where I live definately won't go over in somewhere more liberal such as Charlotte.

Fredman
02-28-2007, 22:39
If the sign isn't conspicuous it doesn't apply per my read of the law. Also, every entrance needs to be posted.

geekboy
03-01-2007, 02:13
Originally posted by Fredman
If the sign isn't conspicuous it doesn't apply per my read of the law. Also, every entrance needs to be posted. Very true and no argument there!

Greycat
03-07-2007, 03:54
Also, check and see what legislation, if any, NC has passed regarding the signs other than placement. I know that here in SC, the governor signed a piece of legislation this past September that is very explicit as to state regulations that signs must meet before they can prevent a CWP holder from carrying on the premises.

I know several of the places I stop into on a regular basis have signs up saying "No Concealable Weapons Allowed", however, the signs don't meet the minimum standards set by SC regulations, and so are non-binding.

Not that anyone should ever know you're carrying in teh first place, but it pays to know the laws and how they'll apply to you....


G

Hef
03-07-2007, 12:48
If the sign doesn't meet SC statute requirements, I ignore it and go along on my merry way.

Hargray phone company is a perfect example. I saw their sign, felt inclined to complain about it to management, and then realized....


.....that sign isn't legally binding. I'll keep my mouth shut so they don't change it. :D

Glocked801
03-07-2007, 17:25
in utah a sign does not mean anything. only if they are registered with UTah BCi does it become illeagal to possess a firearm while on there premises.

G26man
03-07-2007, 17:56
I wonder if any businesses purposely make their signs inconspicuous or out of compliance in order to satisfy their insurance companies and placate the sheeple but at the same time not turn away business from knowledgeable CCW holders?

thormcse
03-07-2007, 21:22
I live in Virginia and we have a mall that has signs at only 2 entrances. I park on the Sears side and walk in not having passed the posted entrance. The ones that do are very small and not abvious. I was told it was for insurance.

as a side note I am in NC right now for some training and my GOD they have some wierd laws here. We have recoprosedy (spelling) I think in NC I am only legal to carry if I am by myself in a wheat field and wind is not blowing too hard or something like that.

Dinky
03-07-2007, 21:28
Have not been able to carry the last several days because of the wind:rofl: :rofl:

medic1213
03-07-2007, 23:04
Originally posted by thormcse

as a side note I am in NC right now for some training and my GOD they have some wierd laws here. We have recoprosedy (spelling) I think in NC I am only legal to carry if I am by myself in a wheat field and wind is not blowing too hard or something like that.

Virginia does have reciprocity with NC, so you can legally carry concealled anywhere a NC resident can carry. Basically anywhere that doesn't sell aclohol, charge admission (ie a theatre), federal or state buildings, or posted businesses. The laws may not be as lax as your state, but they aren't as limiting as you seem to think.

Mike

thormcse
03-08-2007, 07:17
Below is what I had read on packing.org and it leaves much that can be interpreted. I guess it would depend on where you carry as to how safe you are in that regard. There are places in Virginia where the powers that be do not like people carrying but since our laws are more "lax" they cannot harrass you too much our get you into any real trouble. My frustration is from wanting to follow the law and at the same time wanting to be safe. Thanks for your input.

Schools, public or private,
all levels including universities. 14-269.2


Assemblies and establishments where
admission was charged. 14-269.3


Assemblies and establishments where
alcohol is both sold and consumed. 14-269.3

State Buildings: State
Capitol Building, the Executive Mansion, the Western
Residence of the Governor, or on the grounds of any of
these buildings, and any building housing any court of the
General Court of Justice. 14-269.4

State office buildings or any portion of a
building in which there are State offices. 14-415.11(c)

Law Enforcement or Correctional Facilities.
14-415.11(c)

Financial Institutions.
14-415.11(c)

Events Occurring in Public:
It shall be unlawful for any person participating in,
affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any
parade, funeral procession, picket line, or
demonstration upon any private health care
facility or upon any public place owned or under the control
of the State or any of its political subdivisions to
willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access
to any dangerous weapon. 14-277.2

Areas of emergencies or
riots. 14-288.7

Where notice of carrying a
concealed handgun is prohibited by the
posting of a conspicuous notice or statement.
14-415.11(c)

sifu128
03-09-2007, 21:26
Do your safe a favor and keep it in your car while you drive back and fourth from work, because that is all you are going to be able to do. If you have any kids you cant bring it to the park, etc. You better be really careful going to the mall,etc.

Now it's not to say that you cant carry because what people dont know wont hurt, just dont get caught expecially here in Charlotte!!

thormcse
03-09-2007, 23:23
My training is over and I am happy to be home. I do love Virginia and our easy to understand carry laws

medic1213
03-10-2007, 00:09
Originally posted by sifu128
If you have any kids you cant bring it to the park, etc. You better be really careful going to the mall,etc.

Where are you getting the park idea from? I haven't read any law stating you can't be at a park while carrying. Am I missing something?

sifu128
03-10-2007, 06:46
Here ya go. This is from the North Carolina State Law Summary - Last updated January 16, 2007.

Cities and counties may apply the authority they are given under certain specified state statutes to regulate or prohibit possession of firearms in, or on the grounds or in the parking areas of, publicly owned buildings, public parks, or recreation areas. Section 14-409.40(f). Persons are not prohibited by section 14-409.40(f) from lawfully storing firearms within a motor vehicle when the vehicle is in any of these public locations. Section 14-409.40(f);

and...

North Carolina prohibits possession of firearms by regulation:

On state historic sites property (7 N.C. Admin. Code 4N.0102(a)(9));

Into any state mental health facilities and services buildings of the Department of Health and Human Services (10A N.C. Admin. Code 28I.0401);

Within any park (15A N.C. Admin. Code 12B.0901(a)); and

Within the North Carolina Zoological Park (15A N.C. Admin. Code 22B.0401).

dfowler21
03-15-2007, 16:53
Write your state reps about H830 and h831. If those pass we can carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and parks.

sifu128
03-15-2007, 18:36
Done!! :) I sent emails off to both bill sponsors.

BigWaylon
03-15-2007, 20:35
Originally posted by dfowler21
Write your state reps about H830 and h831. If those pass we can carry in restaurants that serve alcohol and parks.

is there a form letter anywhere for this?

Thanks.
Greg

sifu128
03-16-2007, 05:46
I just did a search on google for house bill 830 and then house bill 831 which gets you here

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2003&BillID=HB%2B830

I then just looked up the sponsers and emailed the directly :)

These seems like a big win for us if this goes through.

BigWaylon
03-16-2007, 14:03
Originally posted by sifu128
I just did a search on google for house bill 830 and then house bill 831 which gets you here

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2003&BillID=HB%2B830

I then just looked up the sponsers and emailed the directly :)

These seems like a big win for us if this goes through.

that link leads me to a 2003 Bill on abortion...and clicking Next(831) takes me to one about the Saltwater Fishing Fund...

I'll search some more, but I'm not sure that's what I'm interested in...;)

BTW...email your actual reps...not just the sponsors...I'm pretty sure the sponsors are already "for" the bills...

Greg

BigWaylon
03-16-2007, 14:07
I searched for "Concealed" in 2007...and here are the correct links:

Concealed Handgun Permit Valid in Parks (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2007&BillID=H830)
Personal Protection in Restaurants (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2007&BillID=H831)

I sent a short email to every Representative/Senator from Mecklenburg County...figured whether Rep/Dem, I ought to at least cover my whole (leaning a little too liberal)county...

http://www.dodgetrucks.org/gallery/data/500/meck_co.jpg

http://www.dodgetrucks.org/gallery/data/500/830_831.jpg


:)

Greg

sifu128
03-16-2007, 18:37
Not sure why the link was messed up... Hmmm. What dont you share that email out and I will change it up a bit and do the same :)

BigWaylon
03-16-2007, 20:45
Originally posted by sifu128
Not sure why the link was messed up... Hmmm. What dont you share that email out and I will change it up a bit and do the same :)

It was a simple one sentence email to each one individually:

As a law-abiding gun-owning Mecklenburg County resident, I would ask for your support of House Bills H830 and H831.

Thank you.
Greg Horton

BTW...I got to emails rejected as domain unrecognized, even though I copied/pasted their email addresses (so no typo)...

I also got one reply already, from a rep that said he co-sponsored both of the bills (that was really his reply...nothing more)...

Greg

heels23
03-16-2007, 23:32
Sent my email to my local reps too. Hopefully these will get passed if so they will go into affect in December per the GA website.

sifu128
03-17-2007, 05:15
I sent all of mine too. :)

Thanks Greg

DrMarc
04-12-2007, 19:08
As long as your weapon is "CONCEALED", how will anyone know you have one on you???

If you have to pull it to save your or someone else's life, do you think ANYONE in their right mind, let alone a jury would convict you???

Let's all use some common sense folks!

geekboy
04-12-2007, 20:08
Originally posted by DrMarc
As long as your weapon is "CONCEALED", how will anyone know you have one on you???

If you have to pull it to save your or someone else's life, do you think ANYONE in their right mind, let alone a jury would convict you???

Let's all use some common sense folks! Some of us actually care about not breaking the law. Especially one which would end up as a criminal conviction. I'm a Charlotte homeowner and I don't carry in N.C. (on my Florida permit) because there are just too many off-limits places. I personally don't want to get in trouble. Going back and forth from Charlotte to Tampa (I just arrived back in Tampa after being in Charlotte since Monday), I just don't want to confuse myself while in N.C.!!! Florida's are much more less-restrictive (no signs!).

Again, what if you are confronted by law enforcement even though your weapon is well "concealed". What do you do when you're caught carrying in a restricted place? I'd rather not try the system, adn quite frankly, I'd rather not be breaking any criminal laws.

RoyRNC
04-13-2007, 08:00
I'm stuck with that same moral dilemma. I want to protect myself and my family but I also don't want to break the law. NC can be pretty harsh and Charlotte has gotten much more strict from when I first moved here back in 1989. Back then it was not unusual to to see someone with an exposed weapon at the grocery store or gas station, etc.. Now people here are so scared that they call the cops if they see someone with a holstered gun. Last year it became a big issue in Charlotte and I believe people were getting in trouble for "brandisihing a weapon." Even if it is concealed sometimes people get a quick peek if not concealed completely or correctly.

Things have just gotten too out of hand here. I try to avoid places where I know I can't carry and I also avoid places that I know would have a high probility of danger (whether I am carrying concealed or not). I want to carry concealed everywhere I go and not have to worry about scaring the public or breaking the laws.