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m1shooter
03-21-2007, 02:48
Hi guys Im looking at taking krav mega lessons, has anyone here taken any classes on it, if so what did/didnt you like about it?

A_Fletcher
03-21-2007, 06:23
Are you taking these classes for fun or for a purpose? If it's for fun, stick with it. At least it's something to do on Monday and Tuesday afternoons. If you're hoping to master it as a form of unarmed self defense, there's alot better arts out there than Krav Maga.

Islander-11
03-21-2007, 09:29
There may be more flowery arts out there, but as fighting systems go, Krav Maga is very solid.

I used my Krav Maga last week in a violent encounter with a subject that I was attempting to arrest. Due to constant training and damn near unconcious reaction, I was able to stop this guy from utilizing the knife he was grabbing for. Afterwards, I was surprised at how automatic my response was.

If you're looking to get in shape and develop real-world self defense skills, then Krav Maga will serve you well. This does not mean that other styles couldn't do the same. Try it out and see if it's right for you.

Good luck to you. Please feel free to PM me with any questions you may have.

A_Fletcher
03-21-2007, 10:00
Originally posted by Islander-11
There may be more flowery arts out there, but as fighting systems go, Krav Maga is very solid.

I used my Krav Maga last week in a violent encounter with a subject that I was attempting to arrest. Due to constant training and damn near unconcious reaction, I was able to stop this guy from utilizing the knife he was grabbing for. Afterwards, I was surprised at how automatic my response was.

If you're looking to get in shape and develop real-world self defense skills, then Krav Maga will serve you well. This does not mean that other styles couldn't do the same. Try it out and see if it's right for you.

Good luck to you. Please feel free to PM me with any questions you may have.


And all of this from an art that doesn't even go against a resisting opponent......

Islander-11
03-21-2007, 10:14
Our dispatchers don't get into many violent conflicts...

A_Fletcher
03-21-2007, 10:18
Originally posted by Islander-11
Our dispatchers don't get into many violent conflicts...

Neither do our's. Try to wrap your mind around the prospect that there some people who are interested in their right to self defense and just enjoy martial arts in general (at least the ones that work instead of looking cool on TV).

Islander-11
03-21-2007, 13:06
So your suggestion is.... ????


(no offense intended, A_Fletcher, but I'm kind of interested as to where your opinion of Krav Maga comes from)

A_Fletcher
03-21-2007, 13:36
Originally posted by Islander-11
So your suggestion is.... ????


(no offense intended, A_Fletcher, but I'm kind of interested as to where your opinion of Krav Maga comes from)


My suggestion would be some BJJ or at the very least some type of grecco-roman/ free style wrestling paired off with one of the various forms of kickboxing.

When I was in highschool a buddy of mine and I were bored and watching a show on the discovery channel about the various martial arts used by the world's armed forces. One of the segments was on Krav Maga and since it looked pretty cool, we went to a few of the classes and checked it out. After a little while at it, we invited a couple of our other friends over to have kind of a little NHB type thing. We got stuffed. I mean it was just awful. None of that stuff worked in the way it was supposed to.....

Moving forward a few months, that same friend and I asked those guys what it was that they did. They said "Muy Thai and Brasilian Jiu Jitsu". So we started in MT and BJJ and found that there were some major differences.

1. MT and BJJ was drilled at full speed.
2. MT and BJJ was drilled against live resisting opponents (with the kickboxing it was against opponents holding pads and sparring)

Islander-11
03-21-2007, 15:24
I tried it live, full speed with a resisting opponent. For all the money. And I'm here to tell the tale!

Hey, whatever - I like it, I benefit from it and it helps me to stay in shape and alive.

Thanks for taking the time to state why you think what you think. Every martial art brings something to the table.

m1shooter
03-21-2007, 23:07
PM imbound Islander

brock sampson
03-23-2007, 21:06
A_Fletch,
It sounds like your friends were playing a different game with different rules when that happened, and maybe more experience.
I'm not trying to slam any styles or point any fingers. I just wanted to state that the program you've described is well suited for a ring or octagon or whatever polygon you may find yourself in. The same program can provide you very useful skills on the street as well but keep in mind that training with the proper instruction and the right focus is the key. I agree that resistance training is a close second to these. Which style you choose is way down the list and Krav Maga is a valid system if the above key elements are applied. Just keep in mind that if you ever find yourself in a real self defense situation (hopefully this never happens!) your goals are to avoid, survive, escape. Don't spend too much time rolling on the pavement and forget these priorities.

A_Fletcher
03-23-2007, 21:14
Originally posted by brock sampson
A_Fletch,
It sounds like your friends were playing a different game with different rules when that happened, and maybe more experience.
I'm not trying to slam any styles or point any fingers. I just wanted to state that the program you've described is well suited for a ring or octagon or whatever polygon you may find yourself in. The same program can provide you very useful skills on the street as well but keep in mind that training with the proper instruction and the right focus is the key. I agree that resistance training is a close second to these. Which style you choose is way down the list and Krav Maga is a valid system if the above key elements are applied. Just keep in mind that if you ever find yourself in a real self defense situation (hopefully this never happens!) your goals are to avoid, survive, escape. Don't spend too much time rolling on the pavement and forget these priorities.


Nope, no rolling on the pavement for me. The main reason for BJJ (at least for me) is partly a hobby, but also as an absolute last ditch do that or die means of escaping the imminent threat of death or incapacitation.

windplex
03-23-2007, 21:15
I am no martial arts expert. My son studies one type now. I have read of the development of Krav Maga by an Israelli made sense to me. Take natural human reactions and compound them with martial arts moves so that one need not practice continually in order to keep one's skills up to speed enough to be effective.

The Israelli's are very practical about things military. And I respect that.

brock sampson
03-23-2007, 22:58
A, sounds perfect. A lot of ground fighting guys seem to blur this line a little. I like to spend time on the grappling work but for defense I try to focus on putting the other guy down and hit my feet running.

Windplex,
In my experience (not that I'm qualified to speak for everyone) a lot of the arts try to use the "built-in" reaction like you mentioned. It is so much easier to train the flinch mechanisim into something useful than it is to train it out. Under stress we all revert to what we know best and what is most natural. Why not combine the two?
I have seen this in Japanese and Okinawan arts. They no doubt picked it up from the Chinese who most likely got it from Indian and other sources and so on. It is by no means a new idea. The fact that it is so widely used must mean there is some merit to it. This does not replace the need for constant training to keep your edge.
The more effective the weapon is, the shorter the fight lasts.

windplex
03-24-2007, 15:42
Originally posted by brock sampson
Windplex,
In my experience (not that I'm qualified to speak for everyone) a lot of the arts try to use the "built-in" reaction like you mentioned. It is so much easier to train the flinch mechanisim into something useful than it is to train it out. Under stress we all revert to what we know best and what is most natural. Why not combine the two?
I have seen this in Japanese and Okinawan arts. They no doubt picked it up from the Chinese who most likely got it from Indian and other sources and so on. It is by no means a new idea. The fact that it is so widely used must mean there is some merit to it. This does not replace the need for constant training to keep your edge.
The more effective the weapon is, the shorter the fight lasts.

Good to know that all (most) martial arts already take normal human reactions into account. Did not know that.

My understanding, from reading, was that the Mosad was not satisfied with any one martial art and they were dissatisfied that to stay effective with any of them one must constantly practice. So one of their trainers took some elements from each discipline that he believed best combined with natural human reactions to create an effective defensive response so that they were able to greatly reduce the need for constant practice while maintaining effectiveness in the field.

Again I read this. I am by no means practicing nor an expert. My real experience is limited so having said my peace will end it here.

brock sampson
03-26-2007, 21:36
Agreed. I have heard the same about the development of Krav. They(Israeli military) needed something that was fairly effective but also quick and easily trained and this is what they created. This is similar to what many military and law enforcement organizations have done but Krav went above and beyond that and has grown into a very popular system.

As I said, a lot of arts have this flinch reaction training built into them but, it doesn't mean that all schools teach this way. Sadly, many schools never even get to this point in training.

A_Fletcher
03-27-2007, 11:24
You guys should be proud of me, I did some research! Here's the Wikipedia version of the history of Krav Maga:


"Imi Lichtenfeld
The beginning of the system that would become Krav Maga in Israel was developed in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 1930s by Imi Lichtenfeld, also known as Imi Sde-Or. (Sde-Or - "Light Field" - is a calque of his surname into Hebrew.) He first taught his fighting system in Bratislava in order to help protect the Jewish community from Nazi militias. Upon arriving in the British Mandate of Palestine prior to the establishment of the Jewish state, Imi began teaching hand-to-hand combat to the Haganah, the Jewish underground army. With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Imi became the Chief Instructor of Physical Fitness and Krav Maga at the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) School of Combat Fitness. He served in the IDF for about 20 years, during which time he continued to develop and refine his hand-to-hand combat method. He died in January 1998 in Netanya, Israel."


I don't really have a point behind it other than just some basic history on the art.

Halojumper
03-27-2007, 17:45
Originally posted by windplex
Good to know that all (most) martial arts already take normal human reactions into account. Did not know that.


That might be a bit optimistic. "Some" is probably more accurate.

ltgibson2001
03-27-2007, 18:33
I have kickboxed for years and have a black belt in one system and trained in various other systems. Got bored and at the time nobody close to me offered any kind of ground training so I read up on Krav Maga and was lucky enough to have the only place teaching in all of North or South Carolina about 30 miles away from me. I have been training in Krav Maga for a while now and have to say it's my favorite martial art that I have taken and like Islander-11, I'm a Law Enforcement Instructor in it. It is very good for real world situations and has been battle tested constantly for decades in the Middle East. It's great for your cardio vascular endurance. One thing I like about Krav compared to other Arts (and this is only my opinion)is that I'm not in to the traditional part of martial arts, the uniforms, kata, bowing. Not saying thats bad and I have a BB in one but it's just not me. I know A_Fletcher may have sounded like a Krav hater in his first couple of posts but I would have to second what he said about the BJJ. Krav does have some good ground stuff but I wanted a little more than what Krav offers. I was able to take BJJ at the same school I take Krav at and I think that the two compliment each other well. Krav does have some gun and knife defenses on the ground that you won't see in BJJ but If you end up on the ground against your will I would want to know enough BJJ to be able to get back to a standing position and apply Krav Maga.

Gonetodarkside
03-28-2007, 10:59
in reference to wrestling, bjj, and really any of the sport fighting techniques..




a wrestler pins bruce lee on the ground, bruce lee taps and triumphantly the wrestler stands up and says, "now what could you do there?" in a challenging manner.

Bruce Lee replied, "simple, i would have bit your ear off."


krav maga is good, i prefer HAGINAH.

the main thing is remember to fight nasty and cheat, cause if your fighting me, you can count on me doing it.

gr81disp
03-29-2007, 07:38
Bruce Lee might have bitten a BJJ guy's ear off, but then he would never walk or do martial arts again, assuming the bjj guy didn't just choke him to death. Say what you want about bjj, but it didn't originate as a sport and I would take a bjj purple over just about any other black belt in a fight.

Gonetodarkside
03-29-2007, 07:40
Originally posted by gr81disp
Bruce Lee might have bitten a BJJ guy's ear off, but then he would never walk or do martial arts again, assuming the bjj guy didn't just choke him to death. Say what you want about bjj, but it didn't originate as a sport and I would take a bjj purple over just about any other black belt in a fight.




and i would disagree...


remember the doctors said the same thing after he broke his back, only to come back stronger than ever..


and if you think the wrestler, or bjj practicioner would continue his attack with his ear being bitting off, come on over for a demo.


and as to bjj not being a sport style art... ask yourself this question, how many eye gouges do you work on.. how many times do you bite..

i think an arm bar is a perfect example of the sport aspect. there are lots of examples online where the bjj guy locks the other dude in an arm bar and the other guys face is resting on the calf of the bjj guy. now if the rules of biting are followed, the bjj guy would lose a mouth full of calf muscle.

i like bjj, i like wrestling, i like all martial arts, but gotta keep things in perspective bro.

wolves travel in packs, in that sense bjj could get you very very hurt.

wanna know the rule about biteing, since they dont/wont teach it in bjj?

"the only rule about biteing is make sure your teeth meet each other"
-bruce lee

Halojumper
03-29-2007, 08:26
Originally posted by Gonetodarkside
i like all martial arts

Even TKD, the 7-11 of martial arts? :)

Gonetodarkside
03-29-2007, 08:29
Originally posted by Halojumper
Even TKD, the 7-11 of martial arts? :)


yup, im a 2nd dan



you know.. there is alot of variance in the way the style is taught.. prolly the most usless is the WTF olympic organization. equally useless is any school who concentrates on tournament type competition.

any school that takes more of a kickboxing approach is much much better.

(we do lots of different styles at our school, the tkd is great for physical conditioning and kicks. we augment with boxing, judo, jiu-jitsu, and Haginah as our modern style.)




edit: (by the way, dont make me kick you!:banana: )

A_Fletcher
03-29-2007, 10:31
Originally posted by Gonetodarkside
(partial quote)edit: (by the way, dont make me kick you!:banana: )


Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy Chuck!





:tongueout: :animlol: :rofl: :laughabove:

Halojumper
03-29-2007, 12:02
Originally posted by Gonetodarkside
prolly the most usless is the WTF olympic organization.

From what I've seen, ATA is even worse.


Originally posted by Gonetodarkside
any school that takes more of a kickboxing approach is much much better.

Yeah, at least a kickboxer can take and give a reasonable shot.



Originally posted by Gonetodarkside
edit: (by the way, dont make me kick you! )

Oh, that's no problem. I generally try to be pretty accomodating. Feel free to attempt to kick me anytime! :)

Gonetodarkside
03-29-2007, 12:44
Originally posted by A_Fletcher
Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy Chuck!





:tongueout: :animlol: :rofl: :laughabove:


lol fear me! lol

gr81disp
03-30-2007, 15:33
Originally posted by Gonetodarkside
and i would disagree...


remember the doctors said the same thing after he broke his back, only to come back stronger than ever..


and if you think the wrestler, or bjj practicioner would continue his attack with his ear being bitting off, come on over for a demo.


and as to bjj not being a sport style art... ask yourself this question, how many eye gouges do you work on.. how many times do you bite..

i think an arm bar is a perfect example of the sport aspect. there are lots of examples online where the bjj guy locks the other dude in an arm bar and the other guys face is resting on the calf of the bjj guy. now if the rules of biting are followed, the bjj guy would lose a mouth full of calf muscle.

i like bjj, i like wrestling, i like all martial arts, but gotta keep things in perspective bro.

wolves travel in packs, in that sense bjj could get you very very hurt.

wanna know the rule about biteing, since they dont/wont teach it in bjj?

"the only rule about biteing is make sure your teeth meet each other"
-bruce lee

Oh NO! NOT the "d34dly" eye gouge!! :upeyes:

No, I am not going to use bjj in a multiple attacker scenario. Nor am I going to use Muay thai kickboxing, sambo, kung fu, tkd, or any myriad of martial arts except the 500 meter dash and a glock. If you are dumb enough to say that multiple attackers proves bjj is ineffective, guess what, you have just proven EVERY martial art ineffective. There is no martial art where you can be attacked by three guys at one time and come out of it on the winning side unless you are armed and they are not. No, Enter the Dragon does not count as a valid reference for a multiple attacker scenario.

As for biting and eye gouging, well, what is your striking martial art going to do if I kick you in the groin. It is the same argument. Groin strikes, eye gouges and biting DO NOT END FIGHTS!!! If you rely on biting me to escape my armbar, you have a broken arm and afterwards, I am going to REALLY hurt you for pissing me off! As for eye gouging, it isn't a 1-way street. You try to eye gouge me on the ground, I am in superior position, stop it and eye gouge you right back. Then, once again, I REALLY hurt you for pissing me off.

Is Bjj the most effective martial art? No, a cross-trained martial artist will eat a pure bjj guy alive, but guess what? Bruce Lee was not a true cross-trained martial artist, he couldn't wrestle and would be KILLED by a bjj guy. He is worshipped because he is the genesis of perhaps the most valuable martial arts idea in centuries, namely that to be complete, you must cross-train. But he wasn't invincible and to seriously think he could even compete today without learning some type of grappling art is stupid. Bruce Lee should be respected for his ideas and his skill level in his art, but not worshipped.

Gonetodarkside
03-30-2007, 16:00
Originally posted by gr81disp
Bruce Lee was not a true cross-trained martial artist, he couldn't wrestle and would be KILLED by a bjj guy. He is worshipped because he is the genesis of perhaps the most valuable martial arts idea in centuries, namely that to be complete, you must cross-train. But he wasn't invincible and to seriously think he could even compete today without learning some type of grappling art is stupid. Bruce Lee should be respected for his ideas and his skill level in his art, but not worshipped.



wow... just wow..


your agressive and opinionated, thats fine.

but your wrong about bruce lee, as anyone who actually knows anything about the man can tell you..


edited to ad: i have attempted to remove eyeballs on two seperate real world occasions..

the first time i was being choked and the eyeballs didnt come out but a whole lot of blood did, i still lost the fight but only because i did it incorrectly, i used the middle and pointer finger instead of the thumbs.


the second time a guy was getting his finger bitten off, i forced the same two fingers into the biter's eye sockets and pulled back to open his jaw, this saved the other guy's finger.


i am a big fan of running away, its a big part of my plan.


you just seem so young and foolish when you make agressive posts like this.

Halojumper
03-30-2007, 16:16
Originally posted by gr81disp
No, I am not going to use bjj in a multiple attacker scenario. Nor am I going to use Muay thai kickboxing, sambo, kung fu, tkd, or any myriad of martial arts except the 500 meter dash and a glock. If you are dumb enough to say that multiple attackers proves bjj is ineffective, guess what, you have just proven EVERY martial art ineffective. There is no martial art where you can be attacked by three guys at one time and come out of it on the winning side unless you are armed and they are not. No, Enter the Dragon does not count as a valid reference for a multiple attacker scenario.



Well that sounds like a good plan exept that running is not always an option. Bad guys may have your route cut off or have already grabbed you. While I agree that no martial art will make you a superman that can automatically whip any number of opponents, having the best MA skill set you can is a definite plus in this case, though I would not put BJJ on the top of the list.

gr81disp
03-30-2007, 17:31
What about Bruce Lee was I wrong about? Was he an accomplished grappler? No. Is he worshipped? Yes. Did he contribute an extremely vital idea to martial arts (to discard what did not work and use what did)? Yes. Should he be highly respected because of his philosophy? Yes. Was he extremely skilled? Yes.

So, the only two things you could possibly have any problems with is either that he doesn't deserve the worship he receives (which I don't think you are arguing) or my assertion that he would get owned by any competent submission grappler. Would he have a chance? Of course, somebody as skilled as Lee would always have a chance, but it would be a very small one. Strikers do not fare well against grapplers, this is already a settled question. I may look foolish to those set in their ways, but I wonder which of us looks foolish to those with an open mind?

Halojumper, yeah, if you are cornered, unless your opponents are incompetent or you are just amazing, it is time for a beatdown. Bjj is poor for multiple opponents, but that is why I train in muay thai also. Rickson Gracie, probably the greatest Jiu-Jitsu practitioner to have ever lived, was asked what his favorite technique was for mulitple opponents. He replied, "My Sig Sauer P229."

Gonetodarkside
03-30-2007, 17:48
bruce lee's "idea" is what you now call mma.


he was the first to realise that to their is no reason to be true to a particular style other than, like you have said, being closed minded/ignorant.


and as far as your example about the wrestler pinning him and then claiming a bjj guy would destroy him because of this event..


three words..



hughes vs gracie


there is something in you that makes you a fighter, it cannot be taught, you can learn the skills but the mental edge that is required to implement is what makes the man a fighter..

bruce lee had this edge.

edit: is vs a word?

gr81disp
03-30-2007, 18:30
Hold on, so your idea that Lee, a striker, would beat a grappler, is that Hughes, a grappler, beat Gracie, a grappler :freak:

I know that Lee's ideas taken to the their logical conclusion is the advent of MMA, but Lee WAS NEVER A GRAPPLER. Supposedly he began studying some at the end of his life, but that is a moot point, he was a striker. I have said in the last couple of posts that Lee's ideas are some of the most important to have come along in martial arts history, so I have no idea what you are trying to prove with that comment about MMA. The only argument you have put forth is that a grappler beat a grappler, which has NO point in this discussion.

Gonetodarkside
03-30-2007, 18:34
the wrestler vs grappler thing...



you were pointing out that since a champion wrestler pinned lee one time that the bjj guy would have no problem.

this is implying that bjj trumps wrestling.


this is true for the most part but it comes out to the individual more than the style, as is apparent in hughes vs gracie.


i never said it was better to be a striker than a grappler, its best to be both.


and as far as a striker being better than a grappler 3 more words..



st. pierre vs hughes

gr81disp
03-30-2007, 19:04
No, it is implying that wrestling goes for merely pins and such, that is the nature of wrestling, which the wrestler was able to impose because he was a grappler. A bjj guy would go for submissions and would win, not because he is a bjj guy, but because he is a grappler. I could be a sambo or catch wrestler also.

As for GSP beating Hughes, you must mean the rematch, since Hughes beat GSP in the first round, by submission, the first time they met. And it is GSP's grappling ability which enabled him to avoid Hughes' takedown attempts. Personally, I hope Hughes wins the third, but GSP might just be the first true 100% mixed martial artist with elite striking and sick grappling.

As for strikers beating grapplers in general, it is a rare enough occurence that they tend to stick out. The most successful strikers have very good takedown defense and at least moderate grappling skills to get them out of tough spots. (Cro Cop, Liddell, Silva, Sylvia, GSP, etc.) For the most part, there are no more pure strikers in MMA but there are still a few almost pure grapplers (Sherk, Pe De Pano, Monson, Gracie)

Gonetodarkside
03-30-2007, 19:17
ok, you just put cro cop and sylvia in the same sentence.


thats all i need to know about your knowledge of martial arts.


edit to ad: peda pano cruise is a joke.

gr81disp
03-31-2007, 17:20
Hold on, you call an Abu Dhabie Combat Club World Submission Wrestling champion, Marcio Pe De Pano Cruz (at least spell it right) a joke? I have tried to stay away from personal insults but after calling me foolish, and insulting my knowledge of martial arts, I have to say that you are a fool. I say that Bruce Lee would probably lose a fight and you throw a hissy fit and insults. Then, you say that a world champion and black belt, Cruz is a joke. Of course I just put Sylvia and Cro Cop in the same sentence, they are both good strikers with excellent takedown defense. Cro Cop is better, but they both fight with the same formula. I expected you to respond in good faith, but instead you expect your word to be the end of your arguments. Maybe if you would understand that the joke of "dirty fighting" is not the instant touch of death you think it is you would come to a more complete understanding of martial arts instead of burying your head in the sand and complaining that bjj and wrestling are just sports and not real fighting techniques.

Gonetodarkside
03-31-2007, 18:10
relax dude...

im assuming you saw the fight between cruz? and arlovski.


you remind me of that guy with the tapout shirt and hat i seem to see everywhere.

gr81disp
04-01-2007, 14:36
So he loses to a former UFC HW champ in his fourth MMA fight and automatically sucks?