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bchandler
03-29-2007, 13:45
Hi all!

The law states one cannot carry in "any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages on the premises, which portion of that establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose."

What has this been interpreted to mean? I frequently dine out, does this mean I cannot sit in the "bar area," or does it mean I cannot sit at the bar itself? Does it mean I cannot carry in a dedicated bar even if I have a table and am only eating food? When does a bar and grill type place become "primarily devoted" to dispensing alcohol? Would a place like Winghouse, Hooters, or Ale House be defined as the entire premises being devoted to alcoholic beverage consumption?

Also, any input on when or if a bar and grill becomes a "place of nuisance?"

Lots of questions, but I want to be safe!

Thanks!

Ice_Man1
03-29-2007, 14:45
If I remember right in FL. if you can smoke in it then its a bar and no carry allowed. If you cant smoke you are safe to carry but "NO
DRIKING" for you. This is all if I remember right.

Dandapani
03-29-2007, 15:40
Originally posted by Ice_Man1
If I remember right in FL. if you can smoke in it then its a bar and no carry allowed. If you cant smoke you are safe to carry but "NO
DRIKING" for you. This is all if I remember right.

The bar area of most restaurants is usually deliniated by a low wall. Stay out of that area. You can sit in the restaurant area and even have a drink. Don't become intoxicated, however. The 790 statutes have levels of BA where you are presumed to be impaired.

The poster above talks about smoking.... I don't know about that one. I don't see it in the statutes.

LurkMastR
03-29-2007, 15:59
I ordered "Florida Firearms Laws, Use, & Ownership" (6th edition) by Jon Gutmacher today. I'm hoping these types of scenarios are covered in the book. I wasn't aware of the blood alcohol impairment level for concealed carry. Is it the same as for driving?

Gmountain
03-29-2007, 17:26
You can get as drunk as you want while carrying, although if it was me, I wouldn't drink at all. If you ever use a gun while drinking, the statutes presume impairment if your blood alcohol is a certain level. This would impact criminal and civil defense.

There is nothing in the statutes about smoking defining a bar.
Some people say if it allows smoking it is a bar, but there are bars that don't allow smoking at all, like in a mall.

The rule is stay out of the part of the establishment that is primarily used for serving alcohol. At Outback for instance, it is the walled in area. It's easy to see at Applebees, Chili's, etc. You know it when you see it. Don't play games-every reasonable person can identify the bar area.

Wing House, Hooters, Ale House, serve food and drink. They are okay, but stay out of the bar portion.

A bar has noting to do with a place of nuisance, unless it is hosting illegal gambling or is a brothel.

Dandapani
03-29-2007, 19:37
Originally posted by Gmountain
You can get as drunk as you want while carrying, although if it was me, I wouldn't drink at all. If you ever use a gun while drinking, the statutes presume impairment if your blood alcohol is a certain level. This would impact criminal and civil defense.

+1, You can carry while presumed intoxicated, i.e., holstered and concealed, but it is when you put it into your hand that the impairment judgement comes into play.

Kwesi
03-30-2007, 05:27
Originally posted by Gmountain
You can get as drunk as you want while carrying, although if it was me, I wouldn't drink at all. If you ever use a gun while drinking, the statutes presume impairment if your blood alcohol is a certain level. This would impact criminal and civil defense.

There is nothing in the statutes about smoking defining a bar.
Some people say if it allows smoking it is a bar, but there are bars that don't allow smoking at all, like in a mall.

The rule is stay out of the part of the establishment that is primarily used for serving alcohol. At Outback for instance, it is the walled in area. It's easy to see at Applebees, Chili's, etc. You know it when you see it. Don't play games-every reasonable person can identify the bar area.

Wing House, Hooters, Ale House, serve food and drink. They are okay, but stay out of the bar portion.

A bar has noting to do with a place of nuisance, unless it is
hosting illegal gambling or is a brothel.

Gmountain: I for one appreciate your posts and the time you take to help us understand the law! Keep on keeping us straight!

Dandapani
03-30-2007, 19:44
Originally posted by dmobrien2001
The poster above talks about smoking.... I don't know about that one. I don't see it in the statutes.

Found this in passing...

http://www.insomniacscoffeehouse.com/ (scroll down for smoking disclaimer...)

*We offer limited food in order to take advantage of a loophole in the Florida Clean Air laws that was intended for bars. In short, smoking is permitted when food sales are less than 10% and beverage sales are the other 90%. You may bring in food, but you will pay an Insomniacs House “clean up” tax of $1 per person who is eating. Do not ***** about out smoking policy. 95% of our customers smoke in here and we keep the place well ventilated. If you don't like it, there are plenty of places for you to go. Smokers have rights too.

xaosflux
03-30-2007, 22:11
If they meet the smoking loophole (even if they don't use it) I generally consider the entire place a "bar" and won't carry in there. If it's a bar/grill or restuarant I carry, but don't go in the "bar area". In some places there is a wall as some prior posters have said, but in some it's just the line of bar stools around a bar in the middle of the place. Don't sit in the bar stools, don't order anything from the bar counter and you should be OK.

Usingmyrights
03-31-2007, 20:11
Originally posted by dmobrien2001
The bar area of most restaurants is usually deliniated by a low wall. Stay out of that area. You can sit in the restaurant area and even have a drink. Don't become intoxicated, however. The 790 statutes have levels of BA where you are presumed to be impaired.

The poster above talks about smoking.... I don't know about that one. I don't see it in the statutes.

There's one restraunt near me where probably 30% of the seating is in the "bar area" not counting the bar itself. Also I think the thing about the smoking has to do with the bar vs restraunt issue. So if you can smoke then its concidered a bar and a no go.

Usingmyrights
03-31-2007, 20:15
Anyone know what Aromas in Jax is concidered? I would assume a bar. Its mostly a cigar lounge, but they do serve food and drinks.

MiamiE
04-01-2007, 06:13
Its called 'concealed' carry for a reason. What no one sees no one knows. Be smart, safe, and dont drink. ;)

Gmountain
04-01-2007, 06:52
Originally posted by MiamiE
Its called 'concealed' carry for a reason. What no one sees no one knows. Be smart, safe, and dont drink. ;)

Are you suggesting that it is okay to carry in prohibited places as long as no one knows?

MiamiE
04-01-2007, 13:06
What I am saying is I carry wherever I feel I may find a threat on my life or my families life. You decipher that however you please.

Gmountain
04-01-2007, 13:52
Originally posted by MiamiE
What I am saying is I carry wherever I feel I may find a threat on my life or my families life. You decipher that however you please.

It sounds to me like you really have no interest in being a law abiding citizen. If you feel you have to carry in bar, where you know it is illegal, then you should stay out of bars.

chad10mm
04-01-2007, 15:47
MiamiE:
It’s not my business where you decide to carry. Your choices are your own responsibility.
I once had the thought that permit holders carrying in prohibited places would hurt us all if they were caught, but realized the ease with which the rest of us could say that the busted permit holder was obviously not someone who should have had a permit in the first place.

Honestly, I abhor the idea of needing a permit at all, but since we’re stuck with it for now we make the best of it.

I am also a great fan of the 1st amendment.
It would be completely against my nature to tell anyone what they should or shouldn’t say.

So I have no problem with what you say, and I expect the same.

Whenever I become aware…in conversation, internet forums or any other venue…of anything promoting illegal action regarding firearms, I will speak against it, the main reason being that there are new-to-the-whole-thing people that take what they hear and read seriously. I’d like to see them get a balanced view and a fair start.

In response to the “concealed is concealed” attitude when referring to places that carrying is prohibited, I say be damn sure you understand the consequences.
And also, it’s a damnfool thing to do.

MiamiE
04-01-2007, 15:49
I understand and respect your opinions, and would recommend everyone follow the laws set before us by the State of Florida.

Gmountain
04-01-2007, 16:33
Originally posted by MiamiE
I understand and respect your opinions, and would recommend everyone follow the laws set before us by the State of Florida.
I'm curious though-why would you carry in a bar, knowing it is against the law. Isn't it easier not to go into the bar?

MiamiE
04-01-2007, 16:40
I dont frequent bars or clubs at all, but if and when I do I will have a decision to make. It may not be the 'right' thing to do in accordance to the law, but I like to consider myself a law abiding citizen. :hugs:

Gmountain
04-01-2007, 16:41
Originally posted by MiamiE
I dont frequent bars or clubs at all, but if and when I do I will have a decision to make. It may not be the 'right' thing to do in accordance to the law, but I like to consider myself a law abiding citizen. :hugs:

But by definition, if you bring a gun to a bar, you are NOT a law abiding person.

RRTX2007
04-01-2007, 19:50
Under TX state law, intentionally, knowingly or recklessly carrying a handgun into a place that serves alcoholic beverages is a 3rd degree felony. A CHL/CCW only exempts you if this place of business gets 51% or less of it's revenue from alcohol sales.

So I would assume that you can go anywhere you like in Applebee's, Outback's, etc (restaurants) w/o a problem.

However if you venture into a "lounge" (drinking establishment), you're setting yourself up for disaster if something happens and you have to draw a firearm to defend yourself.

Personally, I leave my handgun in the truck if I go out to drink...

Gmountain
04-01-2007, 20:01
Originally posted by RRTX2007
Under TX state law, intentionally, knowingly or recklessly carrying a handgun into a place that serves alcoholic beverages is a 3rd degree felony. A CHL/CCW only exempts you if this place of business gets 51% or less of it's revenue from alcohol sales.

So I would assume that you can go anywhere you like in Applebee's, Outback's, etc (restaurants) w/o a problem.



No, the law in Florida is very different from the law in Texas. You cannot go into the bar at Outback or Applbees in Florida. The law in Florida has nothing to do with percentages.

RRTX2007
04-01-2007, 20:07
Yes, I'm sure they differ state to state. Best bet is to pick up the "Florida Gun Owners Guide" from Bloomfield Press:

http://www.gunlaws.com/fgogup.htm

I picked up the TX edition prior to obtaining my CHL. Wanted to know ALL that I could before getting my CHL. I would advise everyone do the same...

bchandler
04-01-2007, 22:59
I heard the mentioned book was a very good read. I will definitely have to pick it up.

chad10mm
04-02-2007, 02:05
Another excellent resource for Florida...
Florida Firearms: Law, Use and Ownership
Jon Gutmacher
http://floridafirearmslaw.com/indexbook.shtml

noway
04-02-2007, 04:59
ditto on the above and


{I ordered "Florida Firearms Laws, Use, & Ownership" (6th edition) by Jon Gutmacher today.}

Is the best thing you can do , plus actually read the laws :shocked:

O-Town G27
04-02-2007, 20:54
Originally posted by dmobrien2001
Found this in passing...

http://www.insomniacscoffeehouse.com/ (scroll down for smoking disclaimer...)
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*We offer limited food in order to take advantage of a loophole in the Florida Clean Air laws that was intended for bars. In short, smoking is permitted when food sales are less than 10% and beverage sales are the other 90%. You may bring in food, but you will pay an Insomniacs House “clean up” tax of $1 per person who is eating. Do not ***** about out smoking policy. 95% of our customers smoke in here and we keep the place well ventilated. If you don't like it, there are plenty of places for you to go. Smokers have rights too.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Am I missing something here, the example above is a clear example to me of how you can't go strictly by the "smoking" law when determining where you can or cannot carry. Yes, we all usually relate the "smoking" law with bars but the establishment quoted above wouldn't be considered a bar as I assume their main beverage for sale is probably coffee. Therefore, you can carry AND smoke (if your heart desires). Just my $.02

Dandapani
04-03-2007, 07:08
Originally posted by O-Town G27
Am I missing something here, the example above is a clear example to me of how you can't go strictly by the "smoking" law when determining where you can or cannot carry. Yes, we all usually relate the "smoking" law with bars but the establishment quoted above wouldn't be considered a bar as I assume their main beverage for sale is probably coffee. Therefore, you can carry AND smoke (if your heart desires). Just my $.02 :thumbsup:

XNYTRUCKIE
04-03-2007, 07:16
Originally posted by Gmountain
Are you suggesting that it is okay to carry in prohibited places as long as no one knows?


well said ...