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Skpotamus
04-02-2007, 22:34
Ugh, I'm kinda pissed right now. My gf (fiancee really), just got done telling me her story from work.

She's finishing up school and working at JC Penny's. She normally carries her Kahr PM9 to work, stores it in a secured locker, then carries it after work.

She used to keep it concealed on her person during her shifts, but another employee sat on her in the break room and discovered the firearm, complained and the manager asked her to keep it locked up during her shifts.

A few weeks ago, they had a guy hovering around the exit doors after close when employees were starting to leave. Apparantly a pretty shady looking character. The Loss Prevention at Penny's isn't armed. They knew from talking to my GF that she's a MA instructor and carries a firearm sometimes. They asked her to walk with them to escort employees out to their vehicles while this guy was outside to ensure the female LP's (all of them are female btw) and the other employees weren't attacked, at least until the local PD showed up.

The other night, during the LP's check of employee purses, bags etc, the LP pulled my gf's gun out of her purse, and freaked out another employee, who complained about it.

Today, the store manager called her into his office and told her she was no longer allowed to carry her firearm to work (even keeping it in her locker during her shift, or in her vehicle), according to the NEW company policy. He told her she needed to sign a form stating that she agreed to not carry at work or she would be fired, if she didn't sign the form, she wouldn't be allowed to return to work until she did so. To her knowledge, noone else was forced to sign this form.

I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it. She doesn't want to stop carrying, especially since a number of female employees have been attacked while leaving the mall after close. Is there any course of action she can take other than looking for another job? (Which she has already started btw). I remember something about a Taco Bell being sued because they didn't allow customers and employees to carry, but I can't remember enough specifics.

Warp
04-02-2007, 23:24
Originally posted by Skpotamus

The other night, during the LP's check of employee purses, bags etc, the LP pulled my gf's gun out of her purse, and freaked out another employee, who complained about it.

Does LP routinely go through employees personal belongings?

If my fiance had a gun in her purse that purse it would not be in the possession of anybody else...with the possible exception of an on duty, sworn law enforcement officer.

R. Emmelman
04-03-2007, 06:10
The thing here is Indiana is an employer at will state. The short of it is an employer can terminate employment for any legal reason. If the employer does not want an employee to carry they have the right to say no. I would however ask to see the corporate policy prohibiting carrying of weapons and also find out if general managers have the authority to make such local policies.

Blitzer
04-03-2007, 07:18
Perhaps the weapon needed to be in a Smartcarry holster all day. LP searching? Check the local ordinances too.

The manager is a Richard Cranium but corporate will usually back the jerks anyway.

IPDBrad
04-03-2007, 07:37
If she wants to keep carrying, then I would do some sort of seriously deep concealed carry. Something like Blitzer mentioned, belly band, etc.

She can't be locked up for violating a company policy, but they can easily can her for it.

As far as LP searching employee bags, again, they can do that, as a condition of employment, all day long.

Seems a bit ironic that they ask her to escort but then deny her the right to self-defense. She may want to remind them of that.

RF7126
04-03-2007, 08:00
My fiancee used to work at Elder Beerman there, and I was always worried about her leaving work. She also carried a 19 in her purse for a while, but became concerned that someone would find it like in your situation and quit doing it. I wish I knew how to help, that's a crappy situation.

However, I'd be shocked if there wasn't a "no firearms" section in the employee rules. I know every single company I've worked for has had that rule.

minuteman32
04-03-2007, 09:10
I have been "forced" to sign stuff @ work, too. I usually write out something like, "Donnot Agree" or something similar. They are usually not paying close enough attn. to tell it's not my name, &, since I didn't actually sign whatever form, I can still do "as I please" (on that particular issue, @ least).:supergrin: :thumbsup:

minuteman32
04-03-2007, 09:17
Oh, also, you might want to let the store manager & LP, that since they are taking responsability for everyones safety, you WILL hold them responsable if something happens to them going to, from or @ work!

As far as carrying off body, well ..... that's just stupid! Sorry, I usually try to sugar coat it, but you are reaping the fruit of "off body carry". I realize she was "found out" carrying on her person, but unless she is Santa Clause, no one should've been sitting on her, to begin w/!

Perhaps a sharpened entrenching tool would work, or a hatchet, something they sell in their tool department. I'm sure she could carry that!

rhino465
04-03-2007, 10:36
If I were advising her, I would keep in mind that she's going to get fired if she doesn't sign, but also if she gets "caught" again.

So . . . I would recommend something like what minuteman32 does. Do the "non-agreeing agreement" and sign a name like Daffy Duck.

Then, as IPDBrad mentioned, find a better way to carry on her person that is less likely to be noticed, but still accessible quickly. Along with that, DON'T LET OTHER PEOPLE YOU DON'T TRUST ABSOLUTELY with you "secret" TOUCH YOU IN ANY WAY, INCLUDING SITTING ON YOUR LAP. She has a good reason to be standoffish now, anyway.

Then, continue to do what it takes to secure her personal safety until she finds a new and probably better job. At that new job, do not broach the issue of carrying weapons (Don't Ask; Don't tell). The difference is, she is always going to be under suspicion at her current place of employment, but will be just another new employee at the new job.

Maybe you can get her a job at Gander Mountain!

Good luck!

Warp
04-03-2007, 10:45
Can she go back to on body carry as she did before and simply not allow anybody to sit on her lap...?

biggl35
04-03-2007, 13:37
Deep concealment is your friend, she needs to find a way to keep her weapon on HER person.

A Daffy Duck signature is in order here, that is what I recommend.

No job is worth having, if your right to defend yourself is expressly forbidden.

If your GF decides to keep this job and agrees to signoff on the company's no-carry form. I would suggest that she compose a similar form that the company rep must sign, stating that they are now responsible for her personal safety during her work shifts and upon entering and leaving the company property. This letter of "Gauranteed Personal Safety", should also include the possible ramifications that the employer could possibly find themselves under if something were to happen to her.

Good luck.

kevin101
04-03-2007, 13:47
Originally posted by biggl35
I would suggest that she compose a similar form that the company rep must sign, stating that they are now responsible for her personal safety during her work shifts and upon entering and leaving the company property. This letter of "Gauranteed Personal Safety", should also include the possible ramifications that the employer could possibly find themselves under if something were to happen to her.

Good luck.


Good idea, maybe there should be a generic form created here on GT that any of us could print out and fill in the blank as far as company name and address goes.

pixel218
04-03-2007, 13:58
I am RF7126's fiance. I have worked at Elder-Beerman, J C Penny, and L S Ayres (now Macys). Each time I was told by the managers that each store, as well as the Honey Creek Mall itself, has a no firearms policy. I was also told that even leaving it locked in my car was grounds for termination (although how they would know, I don't know).

Skpotamus
04-03-2007, 14:48
Part of the new corporate policy is that LP searches bags at the close of work everyday.

The real pisser is, she was originally carrying in an ankle holster. She was sitting in the break room, had her feet up on a chair when another employee sat on her foot and freaked out. There were plenty of other chairs open, the other employee was simply being a b***h.

I mentioned the "I refuse to follow this policy" signature, but it was after the fact.

I told her to remind the manager that LP had asked her to help escort employees out.

Anyways, she's looking for a new job. Has been for a while. She doesn't like letting people know she carries, and doesn't like off body carry, but didn't have a choice. Similar to Gander's policy of no guns in the store, the employees that carry have to leave them in their vehicles.

Rhino, I thought about that.... but would you want to work with your wife all day? :sad:

How's the shooting going at Riley? I'm still meaning to go, but it seems like everyone and everything conspires to keep me away.

mpholic
04-03-2007, 14:56
Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but NO amount of Daffy Duck signatures and counter forms holding the employer responsible for your security is going to do ANY good.

Regardless of whether she legally signs the form or not they don't need it to fire her. They can fire her for ANY legal reason. They don't even need to mention the gun situation (even though it's the real reason).

No company or company officer will sign a document guaranteeing your safety. They don't have to. They'll just tell you to take a walk and pull the next application out of the drawer.

This is a lose/lose situation. The employee has no recourse. The only valid advice is to carry on person, carry deeply concealed, NEVER mention it to ANY one you work with, NEVER let ANY one you work with touch you. Once your employer finds out you better start looking for something else.

epsylum
04-03-2007, 16:10
Originally posted by mpholic
This is a lose/lose situation. The employee has no recourse. The only valid advice is to carry on person, carry deeply concealed, NEVER mention it to ANY one you work with, NEVER let ANY one you work with touch you. Once your employer finds out you better start looking for something else.

+1

and what I have been doing for the past year and a half. The only person that knows also carries to work so ratting me out will only get him fired as well.

singlestacksig
04-03-2007, 17:56
Originally posted by pixel218
I am RF7126's fiance. I have worked at Elder-Beerman, J C Penny, and L S Ayres (now Macys). Each time I was told by the managers that each store, as well as the Honey Creek Mall itself, has a no firearms policy. I was also told that even leaving it locked in my car was grounds for termination (although how they would know, I don't know).

you would have to do some digging at the library.. but in the late 70's early 80's a woman leaving work at the J.C. Penny's in Glendale mall was grabbed, raped & killed.. it made headlines for a few weeks..
My Mother was working there at the time..

Maybe you should find copies of that news story and give one to your boss and ask how much they want to be resposible for..

Patrick Graham
04-03-2007, 19:19
My 2 cents..

She should get another job..

And on her way out she should let it be known that she will be posting on the internet that JC penny is anti-gun and that JC Penny should be avoided by people who protect themselves and their families..

Then we could do a little blurb in GT GD and arfcom GD about JC Penny's personal protection policies.. and do a mass mail in..

It could get Zumbo sized..

rhino465
04-03-2007, 19:36
Originally posted by mpholic
Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but NO amount of Daffy Duck signatures and counter forms holding the employer responsible for your security is going to do ANY good.

You completely misunderstand the purpose of Daffy Duck signatures and non-agreement, at least from my perspective. It had nothing to do with trying to preserve your employment status. It's about not lying by signing an agreement you don't intend to keep. It's about personal honor, not preventing your boss from firing you.

Bringing a counter form is about making a statement, not about being able to actually hold an employer liable. Some want to make that statement and I applaud them for it.

sdsnet
04-03-2007, 19:50
Originally posted by Skpotamus
Ugh, I'm kinda pissed right now. My gf (fiancee really), just got done telling me her story from work.

She's finishing up school and working at JC Penny's. She normally carries her Kahr PM9 to work, stores it in a secured locker, then carries it after work.

She used to keep it concealed on her person during her shifts, but another employee sat on her in the break room and discovered the firearm, complained and the manager asked her to keep it locked up during her shifts.

A few weeks ago, they had a guy hovering around the exit doors after close when employees were starting to leave. Apparantly a pretty shady looking character. The Loss Prevention at Penny's isn't armed. They knew from talking to my GF that she's a MA instructor and carries a firearm sometimes. They asked her to walk with them to escort employees out to their vehicles while this guy was outside to ensure the female LP's (all of them are female btw) and the other employees weren't attacked, at least until the local PD showed up.

The other night, during the LP's check of employee purses, bags etc, the LP pulled my gf's gun out of her purse, and freaked out another employee, who complained about it.

Today, the store manager called her into his office and told her she was no longer allowed to carry her firearm to work (even keeping it in her locker during her shift, or in her vehicle), according to the NEW company policy. He told her she needed to sign a form stating that she agreed to not carry at work or she would be fired, if she didn't sign the form, she wouldn't be allowed to return to work until she did so. To her knowledge, noone else was forced to sign this form.

I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it. She doesn't want to stop carrying, especially since a number of female employees have been attacked while leaving the mall after close. Is there any course of action she can take other than looking for another job? (Which she has already started btw). I remember something about a Taco Bell being sued because they didn't allow customers and employees to carry, but I can't remember enough specifics.

The employees that complained are idiots considering the people that have been attacked etc. I wouldn't work for anyone that treated me like that. Time for a new job, that one is no longer safe.

IPDBrad
04-03-2007, 20:21
Originally posted by singlestacksig
you would have to do some digging at the library.. but in the late 70's early 80's a woman leaving work at the J.C. Penny's in Glendale mall was grabbed, raped & killed.. it made headlines for a few weeks..
My Mother was working there at the time..

Maybe you should find copies of that news story and give one to your boss and ask how much they want to be resposible for..

There have been other incidents at some other malls. Of course the Simons do their best to keep it on the down low.

pixel218
04-03-2007, 21:02
edit

RF7126
04-03-2007, 21:05
I don't think it's that easy. In Terre Haute you either work food, retail, or full-time industry. That's pretty much it. It can be very difficult to get a job, particularly if you're a student who can only work part-time. I grew up in other places and was shocked when I came here and saw the state of the local economy.

cougar_guy04
04-03-2007, 21:07
Originally posted by pixel218
I am RF7126's fiance. I have worked at Elder-Beerman, J C Penny, and L S Ayres (now Macys). Each time I was told by the managers that each store, as well as the Honey Creek Mall itself, has a no firearms policy. I was also told that even leaving it locked in my car was grounds for termination (although how they would know, I don't know).
Does that just apply to the employees? I'm still learning the ropes of what flies and what doesn't with regards to IN carry law and I really don't want one of the guys that plays dress-up and drive the little SUV's with the strobes around to hassle me. Then again, I hate going to the mall anyway.

With regards to the situation, think these mall managers/owners had heard of a situation in Utah?

mpholic
04-04-2007, 06:15
Originally posted by rhino465
You completely misunderstand the purpose of Daffy Duck signatures and non-agreement, at least from my perspective. It had nothing to do with trying to preserve your employment status. It's about not lying by signing an agreement you don't intend to keep. It's about personal honor, not preventing your boss from firing you.

Bringing a counter form is about making a statement, not about being able to actually hold an employer liable. Some want to make that statement and I applaud them for it.

I don't mean to sound like a butt here but signing a legal document with a false signature and hoping they don't notice IS deceit. The same thing as lying. So if you are using a Daffy Duck signature out of some moral need to not lie you are just kidding yourself.

I guess I'm kind of a fence rider on the "making a statement" thing. If its wasted effort why bother? If you need to do it so you can sleep better at night, get over it. Grow up, join the real world. IF, and this is a BIG IF, you believe that if enough people do this and bring a force of numbers to the arena and it may affect corporate policy than I see possible merit here.

I don't mean to be confrontational sorry just my opinion.

FThorn
04-04-2007, 09:03
Thanks guys! I've been trying to find out some new 'easy targets' for mugging folks at night. Guess I should THANK JC PENNEY, too. Thanks to this here interweb, and this conversation, I can rest assured that I can now hang out outside the JC Pennies and find me some easy targets!

[sarcasm off]

Seriously, though, their policies put people at risk.

mpholic
04-04-2007, 09:10
Originally posted by FThorn
Seriously, though, their policies put people at risk.

As does MANY other corporation's policies. This is a very widespread corporate problem. This really cripples our right to carry and other than breaking the rules and carrying deep concealment I don't have an answer. I wish I did.

bill123
04-04-2007, 16:21
I don't think I would be volunteering to walk anyone out to thier cars either. Provide a whistle

Cassius
04-04-2007, 18:12
Seriously, though, their policies put people at risk.

They don't care about that; they can always get more employees.

The simple fact here is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I bet they didn't give one second of consideration to employee safety, and were just trying to appease whoever complained.

rhino465
04-04-2007, 21:04
Originally posted by IPDBrad
There have been other incidents at some other malls. Of course the Simons do their best to keep it on the down low.

Now wait! I thought their crack team of security guards solved all of the problems before they got out of hand!?! After all, they have those spiffy black and white uniforms (demands respect!) . . . and pepper spray & handcuffs too!

:supergrin:

rhino465
04-04-2007, 21:08
I absolutely disagree with you on all points. The "grow up" nonsense is not going to win you any points in a debate, either.


Originally posted by mpholic
I don't mean to sound like a butt here but signing a legal document with a false signature and hoping they don't notice IS deceit. The same thing as lying. So if you are using a Daffy Duck signature out of some moral need to not lie you are just kidding yourself.

I guess I'm kind of a fence rider on the "making a statement" thing. If its wasted effort why bother? If you need to do it so you can sleep better at night, get over it. Grow up, join the real world. IF, and this is a BIG IF, you believe that if enough people do this and bring a force of numbers to the arena and it may affect corporate policy than I see possible merit here.

I don't mean to be confrontational sorry just my opinion.

mpholic
04-05-2007, 05:59
Originally posted by rhino465
The "grow up" nonsense is not going to win you any points in a debate, either.

I'm not trying to win any points.

Originally posted by rhino465
I absolutely disagree with you on all points.

That's your right.

mpholic
04-05-2007, 06:06
Originally posted by Cassius
I bet they didn't give one second of consideration to employee safety, and were just trying to appease whoever complained.

You got that exactly right.