Paranoia in Carry Issues [Archive] - Glock Talk

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phox_mulder
04-09-2007, 21:38
After reading all the posts in the Paranoia thread, I'm wondering if I should reatain an attorney should I ever need to defend myself or my family.

Anyone know a good lawyer versed in CCW in the valley north of happy valley?
(Salt Lake area)


phox

ElConquistador
04-09-2007, 22:01
An attorney on retainer sounds to me like you're looking for someone to shoot.

Steve Koski
04-09-2007, 22:15
Agreed. Chances are one in 1000 or less you'll ever pull your gun, much less pull the trigger. Keep things in perspective.

Sambolijah
04-09-2007, 22:17
Mitch Velos is in SLC, I think.
He seems like the go-to guy for Utah gun law.

Carry issues is full of oddballs sometimes.
Take that forum with a grain of salt.

RyDC
04-10-2007, 10:54
I had a family friend involved in a self-defense shooting when I lived in California.
Was considered justifiable homicide (we had 69 homicides in Bakersfield last year, of which 4 or 5 were justified), never even went to the grand jury, as far as I know. Of the three who home-invaded him, one was killed, one will be pooping in a bag for the rest of his life, and the other got charged with murder (see the last line of the article for an explanation as to why).

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.northwestvoice.com/home/ViewPost/6902

As far as perspective goes, here's some other things to remember before you start carrying--

Appearance counts. If a cop on scene sees a 71-year-old white guy surrounded by a couple of bleeding youngish-looking Hispanic gangsters in a white part of town, then he's probably going to draw the correct conclusions.

Like it or not, cops profile. Other things that will save you a lot of grief (I work in the court system here, so, pay heed) if you're involved in a shooting.

1) Be professional (or at least mature). Getting a tattoo that reads "Killer" on your back will not look good if you're involved in a shooting. Avoid mullets, an abundance of piercings, etc. The first cop on scene who writes the report will include your general affect and appearance, and if that appearance is stereotypically negative, then you're making things harder on yourself.

I was at the juvenile courthouse a week ago and saw a kid walk in (with his parents and attorney!) wearing at least a dozen piercings, black makeup (the kid was male) and a pentagram belt buckle. The judge will not treat that youth gently, nor will the system treat you gently if you snub it in such a fashion.

2) Have a good rapport with the cops. Laxson (the guy in the article above) had sold several firearms to PO's in our town; they knew he was a stand-up guy. Whatever your profession is, be nice. A history of aggression will come back and bite you.

3) Don't touch anything. As soon as your personal security is ensured, let the crime scene guys and the detectives handle it. You pick up the weapon of the guy you just shot and put your prints on it, it's going to irritate (or confuse) the techs, whose supervisors may determine that your prints on that weapon constitute PC and put you in jail while they sort things out.

Keep in mind, there's a big difference between 'investigative detention' and 'permanent seizure.' Police are legally obligated to act in the most expeditious manner when performing an investigative detention. If they can check your story out at the scene, then they'll cut you loose right there (as they did with Laxson). If you make it hard for them, then they are legally able to detain you for as long as it takes for them to perform their due diligence. They can't make a permanent seizure (ie, arrest) unless they have articulated probable cause and, in most cases, a warrant. Your detention is as long as it takes to satisfy them that you didn't commit a crime.

Okay, rant off. Spent too much time embroiled in legal proceedings this week :( and it's going to my head.

RMTactical
04-10-2007, 11:48
Interesting post, RyDC, thanks.

phox_mulder
04-10-2007, 13:57
Originally posted by RyDC
1) Be professional (or at least mature). Getting a tattoo that reads "Killer" on your back will not look good if you're involved in a shooting. Avoid mullets, an abundance of piercings, etc. The first cop on scene who writes the report will include your general affect and appearance, and if that appearance is stereotypically negative, then you're making things harder on yourself.


No tattoo's yet, no piercings other than one ear.
I do sport a mullet though :supergrin:, but it's well kept.
Short and tight on top, down to my belt in back.

Originally posted by Steve Koski
Agreed. Chances are one in 1000 or less you'll ever pull your gun, much less pull the trigger. Keep things in perspective.
I've been carrying CCW for over 10 years (maybe closer to 15?) and have never drawn my weapon, and 90% of the people that know me don't even know I carry.

I've not heard of any CCW involved shootings in Utah, so don't know how the police react, if they even arrest or detain you, let alone if it ends up in with a Grand Jury and resulting trial.
But, I haven't really researched it much.
Originally posted by Sambolijah
Carry issues is full of oddballs sometimes.
Take that forum with a grain of salt.
I'm thinking it isn't worth the expense to retain a Lawyer, or "insurance", just wanted to check with others around here to see what they thought.

Also, what about a civil suit brought by the family of the deceased BG, or civil suit brought by the wounded for life BG?
Does this actually happen, particularly in Utah?
Or does Utah have laws preventing this, I.E. if it is determined to be a good shoot, a civil suit can't be filed?


phox

RyDC
04-10-2007, 14:39
Originally posted by phox_mulder
No tattoo's yet, no piercings other than one ear.
I do sport a mullet though :supergrin:, but it's well kept.
Short and tight on top, down to my belt in back.


I've been carrying CCW for over 10 years (maybe closer to 15?) and have never drawn my weapon, and 90% of the people that know me don't even know I carry.

I've not heard of any CCW involved shootings in Utah, so don't know how the police react, if they even arrest or detain you, let alone if it ends up in with a Grand Jury and resulting trial.
But, I haven't really researched it much.

I'm thinking it isn't worth the expense to retain a Lawyer, or "insurance", just wanted to check with others around here to see what they thought.

Also, what about a civil suit brought by the family of the deceased BG, or civil suit brought by the wounded for life BG?
Does this actually happen, particularly in Utah?
Or does Utah have laws preventing this, I.E. if it is determined to be a good shoot, a civil suit can't be filed?


phox

Haha, didn't mean to knock mullets.
Incidentally, I believe Utah has laws prohibiting civil penalties for actions taken in due course of the law. I'll ask someone who knows about such things in detail when I get the chance.

Sambolijah
04-10-2007, 15:02
Originally posted by RyDC
Haha, didn't mean to knock mullets.
Incidentally, I believe Utah has laws prohibiting civil penalties for actions taken in due course of the law. I'll ask someone who knows about such things in detail when I get the chance.

That was my understanding, too.

If it's ruled justifiable, then you are protected from civil action, as well.

reerc
04-10-2007, 20:08
Now I AM confused ... I thought there was a law against mullets!

:tongueout:

phox_mulder
04-10-2007, 21:13
Originally posted by reerc
Now I AM confused ... I thought there was a law against mullets!

:tongueout:

Along with mini skirts and bell bottoms, Mullets are coming back, you'll see.


phox

RMTactical
04-11-2007, 01:06
Originally posted by phox_mulder
Along with mini skirts and bell bottoms, Mullets are coming back, you'll see.


phox

:notlistening:

Cokeman
04-11-2007, 01:45
Originally posted by phox_mulder
No tattoo's yet, no piercings other than one ear.
I do sport a mullet though :supergrin:, but it's well kept.
Short and tight on top, down to my belt in back.


Are you serious? Billy-Ray? Is that you? :tongueout:

I thought there was a Castle Doctrine bill that was shot down here recently.

Steve Koski
04-11-2007, 20:46
Mullets are one step away from "killer" tattoos and wearing pants hanging half way off your butt.

Just say no to mullets.

Gibbles
04-11-2007, 23:19
Originally posted by Cokeman
Are you serious? Billy-Ray? Is that you? :tongueout:

I thought there was a Castle Doctrine bill that was shot down here recently.

There was sort of, it was meant for protecting temporary residence like your car and a campsite, the bill would have made it so you could keep a loaded "ready to go" firearm in your glove box or center console with out a permit


And this talk of mullets make me think of this guy in the rose park area with blond hair, mullet, missing a front tooth, and a old nova with the back end lifted up with some huge tires in the back and small little ones in the front and a primer paint job and wearing a wife beater that looked like it has not been washed in weeks. :rofl:

Cokeman
04-12-2007, 02:59
So there are laws that protect against civil suits in a justified self defense shooting?