Why would you buy an AR15 in 9mm?

[kunedo]

Here is an example.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/AZ9-C15R16M4FT.html

Thanks!

[Clem Eastwood]

as an alternative to an MP5.

[packrat213]

Because they are cool!:supergrin:

[Dandapani]

9x21 NATO?

[ecmills]

It's cheap to shoot. (relatively)

[Merkavaboy]

Originally posted by kunedo

Why would you buy an AR15 in 9mm?

Here is an example.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/AZ9-C15R16M4FT.html

Thanks!

Why would some people hunt ground squirrels with "assault rifles"?

BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Same reason why some people will buy an AR15 in 9mm; BECAUSE THEY CAN.

No reason needs to be given.

Enough said.

[kunedo]

Originally posted by dmobrien2001
9x21 NATO?

I didn't notice that. But there are some in 9mm (9x19) and even 40SW.
Beretta has them.

[cessnastud]

Cheap practice. Same sight picture and trigger. Besides, it's always fun to shoot stuff, especially on the cheap!

[NickZac]

The primary reason is that 223 rounds other than the 100gr Extreme Shock (which is 35 bucks a box) is too high a velocity for indoor shooting. Subsequently, if you want to shoot an AR at an indoor range, you go for it in 9 millagreeta.

[beckrodgers]

Only to resale to some one who wanted it.

[vafish]

Originally posted by NickZac
The primary reason is that 223 rounds other than the 100gr Extreme Shock (which is 35 bucks a box) is too high a velocity for indoor shooting. Subsequently, if you want to shoot an AR at an indoor range, you go for it in 9 millagreeta.

That's the main reason I see for one.

But other reasons are:

1. You want to maintain some sort of ammo standardization (ie you have lots of 9MM and don't want to bother buying .223)

2. 9MM is easier to suppress.

3. 9MM has less recoil and noise (may be an issue for new shooters)

4. While a 9MM carbine is not as effective of a fight stopper as a .223 carbine, the 9MM carbine is easier to shoot well than a 9MM handgun. Last I heard, The British police patrolling the airports in England were still carrying semi auto HK MP5's in 9MM.


If I'm going to have a long gun, I prefer it to be in a long gun caliber, not a pistol caliber.

But it's a relatively free country so folks can do whatever they want.

[perazzimx14]

If Stag Arms made a lefty in 9mm.......... A resounding yes!!!

[sasq]

I so much want the one that takes my glock 31/33 mags. The little gi joe in me justs likes the m16 look and don't need/want to buy .223 ammo. But if I ever saw a cheap used one that used my glock mags-- I would get it.... :tongueout:
But... (my wife might read this thread...) :upeyes:

[Kahala]

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/552/ameeteclowerandcmmguppeti3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5919/sbr65qv9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

These rather than mp5

[CaliMoon2005- L]

If Colt made a M-16/M4 in a 10mil, YES!! but a 9mil??? No way!!:thumbsup:

[Mwinter]

I've owned a Colt and an Oly, and both were great fun. The Colt I miss a LOT; wish I hadn't sold it.

The Oly SUCKED, about as hard as the other 2 (.223) Oly rifles I've owned.

I love the 9mm carbine for indoor work (home defense) and closer-range varminting (I have only 5 wooded acres, so a .223 or other centerfire rifle doesn't come into play often).

The only downside is the expense of the rifles and magazines...if I were rich I'd have several 9mm AR-pattern rifles. And a .458 SOCOM, and a 6.8SPC, and a......daydreaming :supergrin:

[mmc45414]

I have always wanted some type of pistol caliber carbine, and an AR would be one I would consider. The primary reason would be to do more economical high volume practice, including steel targets at closer ranges. The secondary reason is because I think it would be a buttload of fun!:banana:

[banger]

Why?

"C.D.I."

[vafish]

Originally posted by banger
Why?

"C.D.I."

Capacitor Discharge Ignition????

[FullClip]

To go with your .45ACP AR!!:supergrin:


Pistol calibers in a rifle are just plain fun and at times come in handy when you're looking for that "just right" unit to eliminate the local racoon population that has decided to move into your canoe / kayak rack.

Love the .45ACP in a carbine, but it's like launching a mortor at any targets over 50 yards.

[RENEA]

Chicks Dig It. :)

Originally posted by vafish
Capacitor Discharge Ignition????

[agentl074]

Why not? 9X45mm that is LOL Now that would be a fitting 9mm for it haha.

[AJSully421]

9mm NATO is the 9x19 M882... if they want to talk about 9x21 those are really only popular in SE Europe, and i would expect better from IG, but this clearly is not that. it is a 9x19.

If anyone doubts, look it up on Bushmaster's own website:

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az9-c15r16m4ft.asp

[crazymoose]

9x19 is a much better round for suppressed work than 5.56.

[James Markov]

The 9mm is much quieter than the .223 out of the AR platform. Also, with a Nato M882 124 grain projectile, its a pretty hot round, and has increased energy :supergrin:

[Mwinter]

I enjoy playing DA from time to time....so here goes:

Let's say your mission requirements include long guns that will reliably penetrate automobile windshields and doors with negligible POA/POI shift. Your engagement distances are confined to within 75 yards.

Let's say you can't pay $1.00 or more per duty round (budgets suck, whether they are personal or official, but they're a fact of life).

9mm SMGs/carbines fit this bill nicely! The 5.56x45mm SUCKS against automobiles, while tons of relatively inexpensive bonded pistol bullets (Speer, Winchester, Federal and Remington, 9/40/357SIG/45) do great on windshields. A box of 50 rounds of bonded pistol ammo can be had for less than $20 (around $15 or less if you shop well).

The Federal Bonded Tactical is one of the few 5.56 rounds that will reliably do the deed against vehicles, and I've never seen it sold at less than a buck a round. If you know where to get reliable, name brand bonded 5.56x45mm ammo for cheap, PLEASE let me know hahaha. The DEA and a large local PD run the 62gr FBT 5.56 round; the results from their tests and live shootings I've seen confirm the manufacturer's claims.

The above scenario could easily be 'plugged in' for stationary guards at a facility or checkpoint, persons doing vehicle takedowns regularly, or a home defender who happens to see trouble coming down the driveway (it does happen...just not that often).

Combine this with the low cost of 9mm, the ease of shooting a pistol-cal carbine or SMG, and the relatively low noise (even unsuppressed) of the 9mm cartridge, and the 9mm carbines (AR or otherwise) have a great appeal.

[CBennett]

Deleted

[SPDSNYPR]

Originally posted by CBennett
Becuase the 9MM has less of a chance of going through multiple walls inside a building and causing injuries/fatalities to people.

Have to disagree with you on this one. The 9mm is a great penetrator for a pistol round, and the .223/5.56' higher velocity makes it tend to tumble and fragment much more quickly than the 9mm. Also, I've never seen a .223 make it through a person and then a wall. It usually fragments, and rarely exits. I've seen 9mm go through people, then walls, then end up 'who knows where'.

I like the little subguns fine, but if over-penetration is your issue, stay away from the 9mm.

[RMTactical]

No... 5.56 all the way.

[agentl074]

I still vote for the 9X45mm (5.56 opened up)LOL:banana:

[CBennett]

deleted

[AK_Stick]

Originally posted by Mwinter
I enjoy playing DA from time to time....so here goes:

Let's say your mission requirements include long guns that will reliably penetrate automobile windshields and doors with negligible POA/POI shift. Your engagement distances are confined to within 75 yards.

Let's say you can't pay $1.00 or more per duty round (budgets suck, whether they are personal or official, but they're a fact of life).

9mm SMGs/carbines fit this bill nicely! The 5.56x45mm SUCKS against automobiles, while tons of relatively inexpensive bonded pistol bullets (Speer, Winchester, Federal and Remington, 9/40/357SIG/45) do great on windshields. A box of 50 rounds of bonded pistol ammo can be had for less than $20 (around $15 or less if you shop well).

The Federal Bonded Tactical is one of the few 5.56 rounds that will reliably do the deed against vehicles, and I've never seen it sold at less than a buck a round. If you know where to get reliable, name brand bonded 5.56x45mm ammo for cheap, PLEASE let me know hahaha. The DEA and a large local PD run the 62gr FBT 5.56 round; the results from their tests and live shootings I've seen confirm the manufacturer's claims.

The above scenario could easily be 'plugged in' for stationary guards at a facility or checkpoint, persons doing vehicle takedowns regularly, or a home defender who happens to see trouble coming down the driveway (it does happen...just not that often).

Combine this with the low cost of 9mm, the ease of shooting a pistol-cal carbine or SMG, and the relatively low noise (even unsuppressed) of the 9mm cartridge, and the 9mm carbines (AR or otherwise) have a great appeal.


Dude, I'd take an M-4 or M-16 with military ball ammo over 9mm if I expected to be engaging cars regularly every day of the week. The only time I'd take a 9mm over a M-4 would be dedicated building entry, and CQB, with SMGs.

[Publilius_Syrus]

Because for practice, $135/K is a lot cheaper than $250/K. That's reason enough.

[Mwinter]

AK,

FMJ .223 ammo regulary frags on windshields and in car doors; the POA/POI shift is also unpredictable and noticeable. .223 bonded nad 9mm bonded drill right on through, even to the trunk sometimes.

Granted, all I've seen is about half a dozen live tests and a few afteractions on PD shootings. The 62gr and 55gr FMJ from 16" ARs are just plain lousy if you're shooting through various intermediate barriers. The pistol ammo actually outperforms .223 ball in this VERY limited application.

If I were drawing from a military armory and allowed/supposed to use FA fire, then the M4/similar would be a top choice.

I'm coming from a PD background, where shot accountability is higher and much more ingrained than most military applications. Right or wrong, a lot of our 'scenario thinking' is geared towards what a single officer can do with a single shot.

Also remember I'm playing DA....you can call that Devil's advocate or district attorney (either works!). The 9mm carbie has its uses, but if I were given free reign in a magical gunshop, then I'd be running a suppressed 6.8mm AR on patrol--certainly not a 9mm.

At present, I run heavy JSP ammo through my personally owned 16" .223 AR. That's the best I can do under our PD's current limitations. Our issue ammo is 55gr Noslers (bleechhh), which are barely adequate for soft frontal shots. They're pretty much useless on cars.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by CBennett
Originally posted by CBennett
Becuase the 9MM has less of a chance of going through multiple walls inside a building and causing injuries/fatalities to people.






No, actually you have the disagree with the GOVERNMENT/Department of Justice on this one..not me...thats the reason they gave US for using the 9mm instead of 5.56 in indoor/urban type settings...that and that we also use the M4 IN 5.56 so its a familiarity with platform type stuff...but I am not the one advocating the 9mm the Department of Justice is and thats the reason they gave us..the 9mm does not penetrate as far and fly as far as a 5.56...so you need to contact the Deaprtment of Justice IMMEDIATELY and tell THEM your expert findings so they can change weapons/poilcy.

He is right your wrong.
Here is the info.
Pat

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results
Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

[Alaskapopo]

.223 for CQB
by R.K. Taubert
About the author: A recently retired FBI Agent with over 20 years experience in SWAT and Special Operations, he conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while in the Bureau.
Reprinted and edited with permission.
Close Quarter Battle Reputation
Several interesting but inconclusive articles examining the feasibility of the .223 caliber, or 5.56x45mm round, for CQB events, such as hostage rescue and narcotics raids, have recently been featured in a variety of firearms and police publications. However, for more than 20 years, conventional law enforcement wisdom generally held that the .223 in any configuration was a deeply penetrating round and, therefore, totally unsuited for CQB missions in the urban environment. Partly because of this erroneous, but long held perception, and other tactical factors, the pistol caliber submachine gun (SMG) eventually emerged as the primary shoulder "entry" weapon for the police and military SWAT teams.
Although new revelations about the .223 are beginning to slowly circulate throughout the Special Operations community, a number of law enforcement agencies are in the process of acquiring the next generation of "advanced" SMGs in 10mm and .40 S&W calibers. Could they and the public be better served by a .223 caliber weapons system and at less expense? Please read on and judge for yourself.
FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.
These tests were conducted by the FBI’s Firearms Training Unit (FTU), at the request of the Bureau Tactical and Special Operations personnel. Located at the FBI academy in Quantico, VA, this is the same unit with the encouragement of forensic pathologist Dr. Martin Fackler and other ballistic experts, that dramatically advanced the testing of modern handgun rounds to estimate their wounding effectiveness and potential lethality. Ultimately, this entity confirmed that permanent crush cavities, or "wound-channels," and deep penetration were the primary factors for handgun-fired projectiles. The FTU further determined that under various target engagement circumstances, a depth of penetration in soft tissue of between 12 to 18 inches was required for a handgun bullet to be effective.
Equipment Employed / Rounds Tested
For these series of tests the following firearms, ammunition and equipment were employed:

• Sealed, match grade test barrel to determine 25 yard, 10-shot group accuracy and 20-round velocity potential.
• 20" barreled, M16A1 rifle to stabilize and test rounds ranging from 40 to 55 grains in weight.
• 20" barreled, M16A2 rifle to stabilize and test rounds ranging from 62 to 69 grains in weight.
• Oehler Model 85 chronograph.
• Ransom type rifle rest, with laser bore sighting.
• Numerous blocks of Kind and Knox 250-A, 10% gelatin, to simulate living tissue.
• Federal’s 40-grain "Blitz" hollow point, 55-grain soft point and 69-grain hollow point; 9mm 147-grain Hydra-Shok, 10mm and .40 S&W 180-grain, jacketed hollow points.
• Winchester’s 55- and 62-grain full metal case, NTO-military spec. rounds.

As indicated, both rifles were fired from a mechanical rest. Ten-shot groups and 20-round velocity tests were fired for each round. 13 penetration tests were conducted. 95 rounds were fired for each type of round tested. A total of 760 rounds were tested and recorded for this project.
Test Protocol
Tests 1-6:
Bare gelatin, heavy clothing, automobile sheet metal, wallboard, plywood, and vehicle windshield safety glass, were shot a distance of 10 feet from the muzzle. The vehicle safety glass was set at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizontal, with the line of bore of the rifle/SMG offset 15 degrees to the side resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass, which simulates a shot directed at the driver of a car closely missing the shooter. Furthermore, the gelatin was covered with light clothing and set back 18 inches behind the glass. All gelatin blocks, with the exception of the body armor barrier, were set 18 inches behind each solid obstacle shot.
Tests 7-13:
All involved shots through heavy clothing, safety glass and bare gelatin at 50 to 100 yards, concluding with internal walls, external walls and body armor at 10 feet. Test eight however, involved safety glass at 20 yards, shot dead-on, without the 15 degree offset, to simulate a shot at a car’s driver bearing down on the shooter.
For the connivance of the reader, test results are summarized in the following chart. Please note that the data displayed represents the average penetration of these rounds as measured in 10% ballistic gelatin (see tables 1 and 2).
Considering that the average person’s torso is 9 inches thick, front to back, all the .223 rounds ranging in weight from 55 to 69 grains appear to be adequate performers on soft targets where frontal shots are involved. Although the majority of target engagements are frontal, profile shots can and do occur. A .223 round that is required to pass through an arm before entering the rib cage mat, upon striking bone, fragment, and while possibly shattering the appendage, would most likely not be successful in producing a sufficiently deep body cavity wound to be decisive. In this, as with any CQB encounter, "controlled pairs," or rapid-repeat hits may be required to ensure target neutralization.
Defeating Ballistic Garments
Soft body armor appears to have little effect on the calibers ability to penetrate and actually seemed to enhance the 40-grain Blitz’s depth of penetration in soft tissue.
From a law enforcement standpoint, the ability of the .223 caliber round to defeat soft body armor, military ballistic helmets and many ballistic shields is a "double-edged sword." The criminal use of body armor is rare, but increasing. Possessing the ability to penetrate and adversary’s protective vest is obviously desirable. However, this round will also defeat law enforcement vests, so great care must be exercised in laying out and observing fields of fire in training and during operations. With this concern over potential fratricide in mind, voices have been raised in some quarters regarding this bilateral tactical attribute. A number of veteran officers strongly embrace The traditional concept that a department’s duty rounds should not exceed the capabilities of their vests. Arguably, this is a sound approach for any law enforcement agency to take for its non-tactical response personnel. However, SWAT, because of its specialized missions, may be a different matter and this later concern, while important, should not dominate the rationale supporting weapons selection by highly competent tactical units.
Although it has been reported that less that 1% of all serious crimes involve long guns and less than 8% of long gun related crimes involve rifles, law enforcement is being confronted more frequently by criminals with weapons and munitions that are capable of defeating all but the heaviest ballistic protection. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting Section indicates, for example, that rifles were involved in 13% of the assaults on police officers during 1992. The incident a Waco, Texas, is a recent example of this problem. For forced entry teams, the need for higher levels of ballistic protection is essential.
For safe training of specialized law enforcement teams, the development of a lead-free, low penetration, short-range 5.56mm/.223 caliber training round that will (1) not penetrate ballistic vests and helmets, (2) destroy "shooting house" walls, (3) crater, or perforate steel-reactive targets, is extremely important. Fortunately, it appears that private industry is responding to these demands and such munitions are currently being developed.
Vehicle Interaction
With the exception of the full metal case and the 69-grain JHP rounds, it appears inadvisable to select lighter weight, soft or hollow point versions of this caliber when automobiles are likely to be engaged during planned raids and arrests. Penetration against automobile windshield safety glass is generally very poor and is only slightly better on sheet steel. Although terrorists from the insurgent New Peoples’ Army were able to blast their way through an armored limousine in the Philippines and murder a highly regarded

[Alaskapopo]

U.S. military official with concentrated M-16 rifle fire, the SMG-fired pistol round demonstrates at least a theoretical, if not practical, edge against such hardened targets.
Interestingly, while penetration on auto glass and sheet steel is marginal, .223 projectiles will readily perforate and breach mild steel such as standard pepper poppers, that pistol rounds will only slightly dimple. However, very little of the .223’s mass is retained, so after defeating mild steel, significant wound potential is severely diminished upon exit.
Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.
As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.
.223 Wounding Characteristics
Ballisticians and Forensic professionals familiar with gunshot injuries generally agree that high velocity projectiles of the .223 genre produce wounds in soft tissue out of proportion to their calibers, i.e. bullet diameter. This phenomenon is primarily attributed to the synergistic effects of temporary stretch cavity (as opposed to the relatively lower velocity stretching which typifies most pistol rounds) and bullet fragmentation on living tissue.
Distinguished forensic pathologist Dr. Martin L. Fackler, observed when he was conducting wound research for the U.S. Army several years ago ("Wounding Patterns of Military Rifles," International Defense Review, Volume 22, January, 1989), that in tissue simulants such as ballistic gelatin, , the 55-grain, M-193 military bullet lost stability, yawed (turned sideways) 90 degrees, flattened and broke at the cannelure (groove around the bullet into which the cartridge case is crimped) after penetrating about four to five inches. The forward portion of the bullet generally remained in one piece, accounting for 60% of its originally weight. The rear, or base portion of the bullet, broke into numerous fragments that may also penetrate tissue up to a depth of three inches. Dr. Fackler also noted that a relatively large stretch cavity also occurred, violently stretching and weakening tissue surrounding the primary wound channel and its effect was augmented by tissue perforation and further weakening by numerous fragments. An enlarged permanent cavity significantly larger than the bullet diameter resulted by severing and detaching tissue pieces. However, as the range increases, the degree of bullet fragmentation and temporary cavitation decreases because terminal velocity diminishes. At 100 meters, Fackler observed that the bullet, upon penetrating tissue, breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments. However, beyond 200 meters, it no longer looses its integrity, although flattening continues to somewhat occur out to 400 meters.
In his study, Fackler remarked that in abdominal shots, "There will be increased tissue disruption (beyond the bullet diameter wound channel) from the synergistic effect of the temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation. Instead of observing a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestines, we typically find a void left by missing tissue up to three inches in diameter." However, "unless a extremity (peripheral hit) is sufficiently thick like a thigh, or the bullet does not strike bone, the round may pass through an arm for instance, causing little damage from a puncture type wound."
Regarding NATO’s 62-grain FMC M-855 (SS109) .223 caliber round Dr. Fackler observed that the bullet produces a wound profile similar to the M-193’s, particularly where abdominal or thigh wounds were involved. Other sources indicate this bullet, with a [steel] core penetrator, exhibits 10% greater fragmentation and retains its ability to fragment at slightly longer ranges than the 55-grain military bullet. [Keep in mind that the M-855 round, because of its steel core, has a length comparable to a 73-grain lead core bullet, and should be shot out of longer barrels (18+ inches) with tighter twists in order to retain good pratical accuracy],
Hollow and soft point bullets in this caliber can be expected to upset and fragment much sooner and more consistently that full metal case (FMC) bullets. In light of this more consistent performance, Fackler recommends hollow points over "ball" ammunition for police use, providing the HP bullet penetrates deep enough to disrupt something vital. However, in his candid opinion the most effective round currently available for law enforcement operations is the 64-grain, Winchester-Western, pointed soft point, currently referred to as "Power Point". This bullet has a heavier jacket than those tested by the FBI, resists hyper-fragmentation, penetrates well and "expands like a .30 caliber rifle round." Subsequent FBI tests of this round fired from Colt’s 14.5-inch barreled Mk-IV carbine bore this out and bullet expansion was "impressive."
Dr. Fackler also advised that the synergistic effects of fragmentation and high velocity temporary cavitation cannot be scientifically measured in gelatin because that medium is too elastic. More Accurate results can be obtained by examination of fresh animal tissue soon after it is shot.
Range Limitations
Federal’s Blitz round, because of its very high velocity, low weight and frangible construction, demonstrated extremely poor overall penetration in the FBI tests. If it is considered for CQB use, it should be fired from ultra-short barreled weapons, such as Heckler & Koch’s, 8.85-inch barreled HK-53. Shorter barrels would bleed off excessive velocity to reliably fragment and produce good temporary stretch cavities at close range. Because of this velocity loss, the maximum effective range on personnel would most likely be 100 yards or less. To ensure that .223 caliber bullets perform as previously described by Dr. Fackler, it appears that a minimum target striking velocity of 2,500 feet per second (fps) is required. Bullets over 50 grains in weight may not accelerate to this critical velocity in barrels less than 10 to 11 inches in length. Tactical teams should therefore carefully select the appropriate barrel length for their CQB weapon, to ensure that the round they employ will deliver minimum terminal ballistic velocities at the ranges desired and balance it against maneuverability requirements [Also remember that dr. fackler’s data is based on the FMJ ball ammo results and that hollow point ammunition will be as effective with lower velocities]. "Bull pup" configured carbines, such as the Steyr AUG, enjoy a distinct advantage here, because they retain long barrel lengths with relatively compact overall dimensions and are as flexible as an SMG in confined areas. In fact, a Steyr AUG compares favorably to H&K’s MP5-SD SMG in overall length and with a 16-inch barrel, is only an inch longer overall than a 14-inch barreled Remington 870 raid shotgun.
[At this point, Mr. Taubert’s article goes into extreme range shooting and barrel length. His suggestion is to have a barrel at least 14-18 inches long for CQB use as this allows for useful terminal ballistics at around 150-200 yards with 60+ grain bullets. I disagree with Mr. Taubert’s point of view for the simple fact that we are discussing Close Quarters firearms, and not long range sniping firearms. In these instances, a barrel length of 6-10 inches is practical for entry team use as it allows for greater maneuverability and acceptable ballistic performance with 55-grain hollow point ammunition. Also, a lot of Mr. Taubert’s information is based off of Dr. Fackler’s research using FMJ ammunition. Most of my information is based upon real-world shootings and actual testing of commercial ammunition in short barreled firearms designed for this application.]
A recent review of major U.S. ammunition manufacturers’ pricing indicates that commercially loaded .223 ammunition is slightly less expensive than similarly configured premium hollow point pistol ammunition. With millions of rounds of surplus military .223 ammunition possibly available to law enforcement, because of numerous base closures and through low cost channels, training with this caliber could be highly cost effective.
The .223 carbine is able to satisfy both close and intermediate range requirements and presents a good argument for eliminating the necessity for the law enforcement SMG.

[Alaskapopo]

This one-gun concept will not only stretch departmental funds in this respect and reduce training requirements, but in some cases the difference in price between a single-fire carbine and a select-fire SMG often amounts to several hundreds of dollars. The need for full automatic fire with the M-16 carbine is debatable and two single-fire versions can often be purchased by police agencies for the cost of one top-of-the-line SMG. [This is a fact that I have been preaching for a long time. Another fact that Mr. Taubert does not touch on is that the M-16/AR-15 family of rifles use a split receiver system that allows the rapid exchange of differently configured uppers. This allows one officer to carry a 16" CAR-15 in is patrol vehicle as his secondary firearm, and a 6" upper receiver unit in his trunk for tactical entry use]
As a result of contemporary research, such as that conducted by the first FBI’s Wound Ballistic Workshop, some law enforcement agencies have expressed the opinion that concerns about pistol bullet overpenetration were exaggerated. They cite the toughness and flexibility of the human skin in resisting bullet exit and the fact that police officers historically missed their intended targets most of the time in actual shootings. While poor hit ratios and overpenetration may not be critical to some for individual gun battles that occur in the street, these marksmanship realities can become real planning and safety concerns when establishing fields of fire during raids, hostage rescues and other tactical operations.
Typically, these operations involve confined areas, where officers occupy positions in close proximity to each other. In close combat operations, every round expended must be accounted for. It is imperative that that rounds fired hit their intended targets and not pass through them to endanger other officers and innocent bystanders. If misses occur, it is desirable that once the stray round strikes a solid object, it expends its energy and disintegrates into relatively harmless pieces. If deep, barrier penetration is necessary, special ammunition or projectiles [or weapons] possessing this attribute can be selected.
Shootout Results
It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cities’ police tactical unit executed a search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a "biker residence." The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr AUG .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with 28 Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because the team leaders anticipated shots "out to 25 yards."
The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While the other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201-pound subject, high on "speed", suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between the adversaries was approximately 20 feet. With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded, "Police, put your hands up," while clearing the Steyr’s safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.
When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: • Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. • The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.
What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type o terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
Although this is only one incident and could be an aberration, police tactical teams require this type of terminal ballistic performance to enhance their safety and survival particularly during CQB engagements, when criminals most often enjoy a positional and action-versus-reaction time advantage.
The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.
Observations and experience indicate that high velocity rifle bullets generally produce more serious wounds in tissue than pistol bullets, regardless of range.
Violent temporary cavitation, in conjunction with bullet yaw and fragmentation, are essential wounding components for high velocity rifle projectiles.
As range and bullet stability increases and velocity decreases, rifle caliber wound severity decreases and penetration increases.
Where soft target penetration requirements exist and overpenetration concerns are prevalent, police should employ hollow point bullets in this caliber.
Full metal case or heavier soft point bullets may be more appropriate for hard target penetration in this caliber.
The .223 and the current carbine systems available for it are highly versatile and well suited for urban as well as rural operations. However, because of enhanced terminal ballistic performance, rifles are recommended if targets are expected to be engaged beyond 200 meters. [The .223 round itself should not be used in law enforcement applications at any ranges outside of 300 yards/meters. Long distance shots should be left to highly trained sniper units using medium caliber centerfire rifle ammunition. e.g. .308/7.62 NATO. Also, the majority of police sniper shots occur within 100 yards/meters.]
The ability to train with one shoulder weapon and caliber for both CQB and open air options simplifies logistics and training, makes training more effective and is cost effective. [Again, one upper for general, secondary weapon usage, and one upper for CQB]
Under current pricing, police agencies can realize significant savings by purchasing single-fire carbines instead of select-fire machine guns.
Because of the "political" considerations and perhaps the concern over the possibility of more serious injuries caused by errant "friendly fire," the highly versatile and powerful .223 carbine may not be a suitable CQB firearm for some departments. However, if the above factors are not involved, the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
[It has been a recently growing trend to see law enforcement departments exchanging their issue shotguns for the police carbine in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. And many departments have found that these carbines do not serve their needs as they expected. However, they are fearful to switch, or in many cases purchase, .223 carbines because "they will go through 10 people and 3 city blocks before they stop!" As you can see, this is not the case, and is in fact, completely the opposite. I hope that this article helps to clear all false truths and misnomers about this very versatile and serviceable cartridge.]
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

[Alaskapopo]

Also its a myth that the .223 can not be suppressed effectively. Anyone who believes this has not fired a suppressed .223. With subsonic ammo they are even quieter than a suppressed 9mm sub gun. Their is little real need for pistol caliber carbines today outside of simply being able to shoot them at indoor ranges.
Pat

[Mwinter]

The suppressed .223 is a helluva neat little thing for CQB work. You get the ability to penetrate armor, excellent accuracy, high capacity, low weight, and the ability to 'stretch' the envelope out to 100yds if need be.

The only problem is that short-barreled .223s (10, 11.5" specifically) cause a reduction in the potential wounding effect. Note that some tests use/demand 20" with 1/7 twist barrels; no one I know of uses anything longer than 16" (often 1/9 twists) for indoor/patrol work. This makes ammo selection for the given mission even more critical.

True subsonic .223 ammo is comparatively rare, and very ineffective (more like a .22). True subsonic or 'Reduced-charge' ammo (like the IMI bluetip stuff) may or may not function in standard .223 rifles. Single-shot ARs blow haha.

A suppressed .223 firing good standard-velocity ammo (even from a short barrel) really isn't bad in CQB work. A reduction of even 15-20db makes the gun a pleasure. Smaller/lighter cans come out almost yearly! The sonic 'crack' is dimunitive, and when you're pumped up it doesn't sound even as loud as a pistol.

[Justin Rempe]

Originally posted by Mwinter
The suppressed .223 is a helluva neat little thing for CQB work. You get the ability to penetrate armor, excellent accuracy, high capacity, low weight, and the ability to 'stretch' the envelope out to 100yds if need be.

The only problem is that short-barreled .223s (10, 11.5" specifically) cause a reduction in the potential wounding effect. Note that some tests use/demand 20" with 1/7 twist barrels; no one I know of uses anything longer than 16" (often 1/9 twists) for indoor/patrol work. This makes ammo selection for the given mission even more critical.

True subsonic .223 ammo is comparatively rare, and very ineffective (more like a .22). True subsonic or 'Reduced-charge' ammo (like the IMI bluetip stuff) may or may not function in standard .223 rifles. Single-shot ARs blow haha.

A suppressed .223 firing good standard-velocity ammo (even from a short barrel) really isn't bad in CQB work. A reduction of even 15-20db makes the gun a pleasure. Smaller/lighter cans come out almost yearly! The sonic 'crack' is dimunitive, and when you're pumped up it doesn't sound even as loud as a pistol.

I prefer the Bullpup design guns (like the Tavor Assault Rifle) for CQB, but it's not available to us yet (as far as I know)...

[Mwinter]

Getting back on track....
Has anyone used the 9mm carbines from Rock River? All this 9mm carbie talk has got me wanting one again!

I'd really enjoy one of the carbon 9mm's from Bushmaster, 'cept I've seen some photos of ugly catastrophic failures of those receivers.

Getting back off track...
I like some bullpups...me bein' a lefty tho makes it a beech unless they're easily swappable from side to side (recent AUGs, etc.).

[AK_Stick]

Originally posted by Mwinter
AK,

FMJ .223 ammo regulary frags on windshields and in car doors; the POA/POI shift is also unpredictable and noticeable. .223 bonded nad 9mm bonded drill right on through, even to the trunk sometimes.

Granted, all I've seen is about half a dozen live tests and a few afteractions on PD shootings. The 62gr and 55gr FMJ from 16" ARs are just plain lousy if you're shooting through various intermediate barriers. The pistol ammo actually outperforms .223 ball in this VERY limited application.

If I were drawing from a military armory and allowed/supposed to use FA fire, then the M4/similar would be a top choice.

I'm coming from a PD background, where shot accountability is higher and much more ingrained than most military applications. Right or wrong, a lot of our 'scenario thinking' is geared towards what a single officer can do with a single shot.

Also remember I'm playing DA....you can call that Devil's advocate or district attorney (either works!). The 9mm carbie has its uses, but if I were given free reign in a magical gunshop, then I'd be running a suppressed 6.8mm AR on patrol--certainly not a 9mm.

At present, I run heavy JSP ammo through my personally owned 16" .223 AR. That's the best I can do under our PD's current limitations. Our issue ammo is 55gr Noslers (bleechhh), which are barely adequate for soft frontal shots. They're pretty much useless on cars.

If your shooting at a driver through the front windshield, your not going to fire only a single round, so why are we taking this into account? No cops fire a single shot, they shoot several, if your engaging a car, your going to do it with multiple rounds.

Firing M855 62 grain will go through the windshield and go high, so just like with TAP or bearclaw, or what ever big name bonded ammo you want to run in your 9mm, the end result is going to be the same, other than the fact that the 5.56 will put more energy on target, and should you engage a target outside of the vehicle, the 5.56 is a clear advantage

[CBennett]

deleted

[Publilius_Syrus]

Originally posted by Mwinter

A suppressed .223 firing good standard-velocity ammo (even from a short barrel) really isn't bad in CQB work. A reduction of even 15-20db makes the gun a pleasure. Smaller/lighter cans come out almost yearly! The sonic 'crack' is dimunitive, and when you're pumped up it doesn't sound even as loud as a pistol.

True, true. I've spent a lot of time behind a suppressed 12" M16.

But if you want an effective, fully suppressed gun that shoots subsonic ammunition, 147 grain trumps 80 grain every time.

Originally posted by AK_Stick
Firing M855 62 grain will go through the windshield and go high

Shooting from the front of a vehicle through the windshield will cause the round to deflect down. The heavier the round, the less deflection.

[SPDSNYPR]

Sorry to cause a fecal storm, but I wasn't quoting DOJ experts, I was speaking from personal experience. By that I mean actual people shot (some by me, most by others). I wasn't trying to piss you off, I was just trying to tell you that you might want to rethink posting things like the '5.56 is more likely to overpenetrate than the 9mm'. It's just not true. It does seem counter-intuitive, but it's fact. And I have not seen any DOJ reports claiming otherwise (although I have not looked real hard).

And CBennett, YOU said that the 9mm penetrates less - you didn't say 'the DOJ says that it penetrates less.' Go re-read your post. Maybe you meant to say "X is the reason we were given for being issued Y weapon based upon Z information." But it didn't come across that way. I was just trying to correct what I percieved as bad info being put out on the 'net. Sorry if it upset you so much that I disagreed with you and the DOJ.

Once again, sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. I hope we can all be friends and hold hands while singing and all that.:supergrin:

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by CBennett
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alaskapopo
He is right your wrong.
Here is the info.
Pat

[B]NO HE MAY BE RIGHT BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE/GOVERNMENT IS WRONG THEN READ THE FKIN RESPONSE BEFORE YOU TELL ME IM WRONG. I DONT MAKE POLICY IM TWELLING YOU WHAT WE GET TOLD WHEN WE ASK WHY WE USE THE 9MM M-4 SMG. send your "expert" findings to the DOJ and let them know their reasoning and policy are wrong..I could care less and no where in ANY of my posts do you see me say that I think the 9mm is better but I say that the DOJ/GOVERNMENT tells us thats the reason we use it..So don't go telling ME IM WRONG...I could care less what we use..tell the DOJ/GOVERNMENT they are wrong...they make the policy on what we carry and the reason for doing such NOT ME!

STOP YELLING!

Second you said that the 9mm penetrates less not just that the DOJ said they penetrate less. This is a myth that the DOJ may still buy into. Also since I don't work for DOJ I have no need to send them these findings. You can if you like. I had to for my first job where my Chief was anti rifle. I had to show him the facts and we got our rifles afterwards.
Pat

[CBennett]

And CBennett, YOU said that the 9mm penetrates less - you didn't say 'the DOJ says that it penetrates less.' Go re-read your post. Maybe you meant to say "X is the reason we were given for being issued Y weapon based upon Z information." But it didn't come across that way.


yes thats exactly what I meant to say. I dont care nor will I ever care about balistics and what does what. All my posts are now deleted. I forgot to add 3 words to a post which ruined the entire meaning. the 3 words were "The Government Says".... then the rest of my post. its just not worth arguing it. All I was thying to do was state yes the weapon has a use and followers and give the GOVERNMENT/DOJ's reason for using it thats all. Im too damn irritated right now to go any further..