223 for Self Defense?

[glock39]

I currently have a 12ga shotgun for the home defense heavy artillery. My objective is maximum effectiveness inside my home and minimum penetration through my neighbor's home. However, I'm currently reconsidering whether a Mini-14 might not be a better choice for this. The carbine would definitely be easier to hit with and give faster follow up shots. I've heard that some of the 223 ammo actually has <i>less</i> incidental penetration than buckshot. What kinds of hollowpoint ammo should I be getting for this application? I can find the "stopping power" data for various 223 loads, but is there a similar source for penetration data? I guess I could drag some old wallboard out to the range and set up a bullet trap, but I'd like to know where to start looking for the right load and I'm afraid I'm a lot more familiar with pistol bullets than I am with high speed rifle loads. Any recommendations or sources of information would be appriciated. Thanks.

[squirreld]

stopping power data,
ask 98% of our US military.
they can attest to its effectiveness.

and please remember, its impossible to please everyone!

[The-Fly]

read this, should answer all your questions.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

[glock20c10mm]

Originally posted by glock39
[B]What kinds of hollowpoint ammo should I be getting for this application?

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=ed34704cbb73d9bfde9cbc09f789f9ea&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=f5a8f338ed2cc84911aec57bb74a84a5

And just so you know, "Stopping Power" is a myth.
Read this for furhter details.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Even though it's reguarding handguns, you'll get the picture.

Good Luck!

:thumbsup:

[NickZac]

Federal makes a 40 grain Tactical load, which will cycle the firearm. Obviously, its means of effectiveness is through fragmentation, and it is designed with close quarters in mind.

[RMTactical]

Doesn't box of truth have something in reference to this??

[10mmAuto]

The Federal or Remington 55gr. soft point of a .223 will penetrate LESS than a 147gr 9mm HP through dry-wall or stucko surfaced walls.

Don't believe me???? Try a simple test for yourself. Line up multiple layers of dry-wall and shoot through it. Test 9mm, .45, .40 and .223 Soft Points. You'll see.

But, make sure you use a soft point or a hollow point .223. A FMJ has much deeper penetration.

Also, a .223 soft point into a human being usually always fragments so bad that there is no worry about exiting, thus striking an unintended target. You can't always say that about the 147gr 9mm HP's.

It's too bad the U.S. Military doesn't allow the use of soft points or hollow points in their 5.56mm M-16's. If they did, the military would not have a problem or issue with putting down Taliban like they currently do at long distances.

The bullet is absolutely devastating on soft body tissue. More so than standard FMJ rounds.

[Darkangel1846]

a 223 will kill anything that moves in your house.

[vafish]

Originally posted by Darkangel1846
a 223 will kill anything that moves in your house.

You haven't seen some of the stuff in my sons room. It moves and I don't think a .223 will kill it.

[Reyn]

Originally posted by vafish
You haven't seen some of the stuff in my sons room. It moves and I don't think a .223 will kill it.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I can relate.

[beckrodgers]

No expert here ...
Inside the house for self defense?
Hands down 12 gauge shot gun,you could git a little choosy on loadings .
I have seen people load a mix of buck shot and slugs.
I like any thing form 4/0 -1/0
Bird shots will git it done too.

[Glolt20-91]

55gr FMJ over 2700fps, penetrates flesh about 4-6" and then frags at the cannelure leaving a very large wound cavity. The SS109 round is said to be more effective than the 55FMJ. 64gr Win Power Points and the Hornady 75gr BTHP, will work with 1:9 twist, have also been mentioned as good stoppers. The AR has become a top choice for LEOs entering homes during crisis situations because of its high effectiveness w/o collateral damage. :)

The benefits of the 5.56 over the 12ga is rate of fire while engaging multiple drugged intruders; trending toward three or four bad guys entering homes at the same time.

If neighbors are not an issue, an inexpensive, magazine fed Saiga 12 could certainly tear up the insides of a home leaving no barriers to hide behind. :supergrin:

Bob

[10mmAuto]

Originally posted by Glolt20-91
The benefits of the 5.56 over the 12ga is rate of fire while engaging multiple drugged intruders; trending toward three or four bad guys entering homes at the same time.

Well, kinda yes and no. Primarily the carbine rifle benefits for a suspect using soft body armor, where a handgun round is horribly ineffective.

[CaliMoon2005- L]

What the heck are you thinking of making a Mini-14 into a home defense? Why not make a Barrett M82A1 into one also?

Very stupid move....:shocked:

[NickZac]

Originally posted by CaliMoon2005- L
What the heck are you thinking of making a Mini-14 into a home defense? Why not make a Barrett M82A1 into one also?

Very stupid move....:shocked:

Why is a .223 a stupid move? Given that it does not overpenetrate, it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Additionally, no one needs to debate the stopping power of a .223.

[CaliMoon2005- L]

Originally posted by NickZac
Why is a .223 a stupid move? Given that it does not overpenetrate, it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Additionally, no one needs to debate the stopping power of a .223.

The 5.56 round will bounce around, and do more damage inside the body.

I'm not going to carry around a Mini-14, when a G20 or a Colt 1911 will do fine.

[SIGShooter]

It's too bad the U.S. Military doesn't allow the use of soft points or hollow points in their 5.56mm M-16's. If they did, the military would not have a problem or issue with putting down Taliban like they currently do at long distances.


Where did you get your info?



What the heck are you thinking of making a Mini-14 into a home defense? Why not make a Barrett M82A1 into one also? Very stupid move....


Take a look below...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/M4Te.jpg


It is loaded with 69 Gr. Seirre Match King from Blackhills. This is my primary home defense weapon. The secondary is the 12 Ga. The last line is the CQB. And it bouncing around in the body is bad how?


As for the OP...
Nothing wrong with using 5.56 for HD. Ammo selection is important but training supersedes everything else.

[harleyfx69]

he dont want the bad guy to get hurt when he comes into the house .. :upeyes:

[harleyfx69]

just like the people that sterilize the needle for lethal injection ..

[JohnnyReb]

Currently the only thing I have for my Mini 14 is M193. So thats what the mag is loaded with. My only issue is all I have is 1 5Rd factory bag and 1 20rd aftermarket mag I have yet to test. Anyone know where I can get a new factory 20rd Mini 14 Mag?

[CaliMoon2005- L]

Originally posted by SIGShooter
Where did you get your info?






Take a look below...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/davidjinks/M4Te.jpg


It is loaded with 69 Gr. Seirre Match King from Blackhills. This is my primary home defense weapon. The secondary is the 12 Ga. The last line is the CQB. And it bouncing around in the body is bad how?


As for the OP...
Nothing wrong with using 5.56 for HD. Ammo selection is important but training supersedes everything else.

You are going overboard with that set-up. Why use a flashlight? You plan on telling the BG your location?:thumbsup:

[Steve Moses]

You use a weapon-mounted light to:

A. Positively identify the potential threat as a party that needs to not be shot, posssibly be shot, or shot; and

B. To gain compliance or a tactical edge over a threat that possibly needs to be shot or shot. 60+ lumens of white light in the face tend to induce a brief but significant loss of usable vision.

Steve Moses

[SIGShooter]

You are going overboard with that set-up. Why use a flashlight? You plan on telling the BG your location?


First I want to say (I've never been the first to say this) TROLL!


Okay now that I got that off my chest...


It is a Surefire 6P with a 120 Lumen lamp. Not the brightest but it is effective. First I don't think there is anyone on this forum that will tell you they WANT to shoot someone. I do not. As was said before...

"You use a weapon-mounted light to:

A. Positively identify the potential threat as a party that needs to not be shot, posssibly be shot, or shot; and

B. To gain compliance or a tactical edge over a threat that possibly needs to be shot or shot. 60+ lumens of white light in the face tend to induce a brief but significant loss of usable vision.

Steve Moses"


Though it's not the brightest light out there I will say this... It will cause you to lose your vision temporarilly and give me the upper hand. If I can get the tactical advantage then I have won. If the BG knows I'm armed and have the drop on him/her maybe they will run or just give up and comply.

You don't keep the light on while clearing your home. You put it on at the encounter so as not to telegraph where you are. Surprise is key. I can move through my house at night with no lights on and not miss a step.

Second, IMHO, you sond like you are trying to fish to get people to say some off the wall comments about killing someone. Again I ask you what the problem is with having the bullet "bounce around inside the body?" If it doesn't exit, that is good. If it does, not as good.

Third the set up of my rifle is IMO pretty standard through out the community. It has iron sights, Reflex sight, light and forehand grip. How is that overboard? What would you consider a good HD gun?

Fourth why is it you sound so "Anti Black Rifle"?

[SIGShooter]

Originally posted by JohnnyReb
Currently the only thing I have for my Mini 14 is M193. So thats what the mag is loaded with. My only issue is all I have is 1 5Rd factory bag and 1 20rd aftermarket mag I have yet to test. Anyone know where I can get a new factory 20rd Mini 14 Mag?


I can't help you on the Mini-14 mags. (Cheaper than dirt, Midway?) However don't feel under gunned with the M193. I've got 9 mags loaded with that as a fall back. 3 mags are full up with 69 Gr SMK HP and then I have a case of M855 62 Gr. Green tips. Remember training supersedes all others. Keep your powder dry!

[NickZac]

Originally posted by CaliMoon2005- L
The 5.56 round will bounce around, and do more damage inside the body.

I'm not going to carry around a Mini-14, when a G20 or a Colt 1911 will do fine.

I am not talking about CCW...I am talking about home defense. A handgun compared to a rifle is a very inefficient form of self defense.

[walrus108]

Most any 223 is fine for home defense. But there is NOTHING better for home defense than a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 2 3/4" #4 buckshot. You can hit moving, multiple targets much better and with a more definite effect with a shotgun than a 223. Have you ever tried to shoot skeet with a Mini-14 or AR? I can't do it and I doubt anyone else can consistently either. Unless your Donald Trump or something, home defense = short range. Shotguns RULE the world of short range. Practice with the shotty and then you can depend on it. You can get 100 cheap bird shot (#8 or so) shells, a box of skeet, and a cheap hand thrower from wal-mart for less than $30. Get a friend, or better yet your wife or roommate, and go out to most any field where it's legal to shoot. You don't have to worry about the pellets carrying far and hurting somebody. They're lucky to travel 100 yards or so. Take turns throwing for each other. That's a cheap afternoon of fun that will make you both very proficient with a shotgun.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by CaliMoon2005- L
What the heck are you thinking of making a Mini-14 into a home defense? Why not make a Barrett M82A1 into one also?

Very stupid move....:shocked:

Its not a stupid move the 223 is an excellent choice for home defense. It is better than a shotgun in many ways. You need to do a bit of research on the topic. The .223 is safer when it comes to over penetration than most handgun rounds.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by walrus108
Most any 223 is fine for home defense. But there is NOTHING better for home defense than a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 2 3/4" #4 buckshot. You can hit moving, multiple targets much better and with a more definite effect with a shotgun than a 223.

Sorry but at across the room distances your #4 buck pattern will be the size of a fist. It will not be any easier to use it to hit a moving target with than a .223. In fact the semi auto carbine will be easier to hit with due to its lighter recoil and far greater magazine capacity.

Also if you prefer a shotgun 00 and 000 buck is a far far better choice than #4 which typically under penetrates and can not be relied upon to stop the fight. I would take any .223 load over buckshot when it comes to stopping power. Now slugs I admit do have an edge.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by CaliMoon2005- L
You are going overboard with that set-up. Why use a flashlight? You plan on telling the BG your location?:thumbsup:

Like the other poster said you use a weapon light to ID your target. If you can't ID it you had better not shoot it or you will probably end up in the grey bar hotel for a long long time. Weapon lights are essential on home defense long guns.
Pat

[SIGShooter]

Pat,
It's not even worth the argument. This guy was on another thread talking about taking people out with a Barrett. He just wants to troll.

[Alaskapopo]

Thanks for the heads up.
Pat

[walrus108]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Sorry but at across the room distances your #4 buck pattern will be the size of a fist. It will not be any easier to use it to hit a moving target with than a .223. In fact the semi auto carbine will be easier to hit with due to its lighter recoil and far greater magazine capacity.

Also if you prefer a shotgun 00 and 000 buck is a far far better choice than #4 which typically under penetrates and can not be relied upon to stop the fight. I would take any .223 load over buckshot when it comes to stopping power. Now slugs I admit do have an edge.
Pat

I do believe that a fist is MUCH, MUCH bigger than a bullet that is less than 1/4" in diameter. And this spread is completely dependent on the type of barrel and it's length. An overbore 18" cylinder bore works very well in close quarters. And where do you get that 000 or 00 is "a far better choice"? For deer hunting or at a distance, yes. But not when shooting man sized critters in your living room. Shot that big will send pellets through walls and through bodies with enough energy left to kill the people you are trying to protect. If you think that a .223 has more stopping power than most any shotgun load, I'd say you haven't shot a shotgun in a very long time. To say it's easier to hit with a .223 also makes me think you need to get out and try a shottie. Would you be able to take squirrels jumping through a tree faster with a 223 or a shotgun? Can you hit running rabbits at all with a .223? At very close range (within 10 yards) #4 buckshot will act very much like a slug which you said have an advantage. It will also devastate a body anywhere within 35 yards. I live in a pretty large house, and there are no 35 yard shots in it. If we were talking bird shot, I'd agree with you. I can hit 4 clays in the air in 1 second with a 12g pump. There are quite a few who can do much better. Not to mention auto loaders. Like I said, 223 is a good choice. But I submit that when you know that your range is going to be very close, you can't do better than a shotgun properly loaded. They do both have their pluses and minuses, I'll give you that. But you will find your choice for a home defense gun puts you decidedly in the minority. Keep the M4 loaded and ready but keep the 12 gauge at arms length.

[Jason607]

I have a my Mossberg and I like it but I feel much more confident with my Mini-14. I have been interested in a semi-auto shotgun, that might change my mind.

If you hit someone with a .223 at close range with a balistic tip or even soft point, it will rival or beat the damage of a shotgun.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by walrus108
I do believe that a fist is MUCH, MUCH bigger than a bullet that is less than 1/4" in diameter. And this spread is completely dependent on the type of barrel and it's length. An overbore 18" cylinder bore works very well in close quarters. And where do you get that 000 or 00 is "a far better choice"? For deer hunting or at a distance, yes. But not when shooting man sized critters in your living room. Shot that big will send pellets through walls and through bodies with enough energy left to kill the people you are trying to protect. If you think that a .223 has more stopping power than most any shotgun load, I'd say you haven't shot a shotgun in a very long time. To say it's easier to hit with a .223 also makes me think you need to get out and try a shottie. Would you be able to take squirrels jumping through a tree faster with a 223 or a shotgun? Can you hit running rabbits at all with a .223? At very close range (within 10 yards) #4 buckshot will act very much like a slug which you said have an advantage. It will also devastate a body anywhere within 35 yards. I live in a pretty large house, and there are no 35 yard shots in it. If we were talking bird shot, I'd agree with you. I can hit 4 clays in the air in 1 second with a 12g pump. There are quite a few who can do much better. Not to mention auto loaders. Like I said, 223 is a good choice. But I submit that when you know that your range is going to be very close, you can't do better than a shotgun properly loaded. They do both have their pluses and minuses, I'll give you that. But you will find your choice for a home defense gun puts you decidedly in the minority. Keep the M4 loaded and ready but keep the 12 gauge at arms length.

000 and 00 are better choices because they can reliably penetrate deep enough to stop fights #4 buck can't always.

As for the clay targets example it really does not apply well, unless you were being attack by 4 retreating clays.

Also a fist sized pattern is still very easy to miss with. It still needs to be aimed its not a 40 inch pattern.

Also the choice of a good .223 carbine does not put me in the minority.

As for shooting shottie's. I have been shooting shotguns, rifles and pistols for quite a while. I have been doing three gun competitions for the last 5 years. I have a little experience shooting shotguns.
Pat

[.45Super-Man]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Its not a stupid move the 223 is an excellent choice for home defense. It is better than a shotgun in many ways. You need to do a bit of research on the topic. The .223 is safer when it comes to over penetration than most handgun rounds.
Pat I'd say the priority is stopping the threat asap. Knowing your angle of fire is critical and should be a deciding factor, in which areas you choose to engage the intruder in. That, combined with not missing at what amounts to point blank range will address the overpenetration concerns.

[MOHAA Player]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/223wallboard.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/223steel.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/223glass.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/223gel-1.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/223clothing.jpg

MOHAA

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by .45Super-Man
I'd say the priority is stopping the threat asap. Knowing your angle of fire is critical and should be a deciding factor, in which areas you choose to engage the intruder in. That, combined with not missing at what amounts to point blank range will address the overpenetration concerns.

The .223 does a great job of stopping the threat ASAP.
Pat

[SIGShooter]

Indeed it does. You do your part and it will do its part.



ETA: MOHAA: I like that chart. I would love to see the ballistics on the 69 Gr. Sierra Matchking from Black Hills. I know, 2 different maufacturers, I want make cake and I'll eat it to.

[Jason607]

Nice info on the .223 MOHAA.

I've taken my Mini-14 into the woods for fun before. (I don't hunt) It took a little over 100 rounds, but some freinds and I cut down a hardwood tree (oak) that was just under 2' thick, and it was healthy. We were shooting soft tip but mostly FMJ 55gr ammo, most of the rounds went through the other side and some of them hit smaller trees on the other side and I saw one small tree about 2" wide come down from the exiting bullet that went throught the oak tree. I've also shot through 55gallon drums with it, and what was behind the drum took more damage than it it had taken a direct hit. I have used some Winchester 50gr balistic tips, they don't penetrate, they put full energy into the first thing they hit. If someone took a direct hit from a .223/5.56 anywere vital, god have mercy on thier soul because thier body is out of the question.

For home defence rounds I keep a 30rd clip full of the Winchester BT's.

Disclamer: attn tree huggers: it was at a construction site where a freind of mine worked and was going to be cut down the next day.

[Alaskapopo]

Here are some pics.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/556_68_762_comparison.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/wund4.gif

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_223.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_12ga.jpg

[MOHAA Player]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/556_68_762_comparison.jpg
:shocked: TC diameter 7.5":shocked:
Very impressive damage.
MOHAA

[.45Super-Man]

Don't get me wrong, I have 2 AR 15 variants myself, but I've also seen up close, the differences between 5.56/.223 vs. 12ga. 00, 000 and even slugs. The 5.56 is capable of inflicting some very nasty wounds, but based on what I've seen(and I've seen alot) there's simply no comparison.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by .45Super-Man
Don't get me wrong, I have 2 AR 15 variants myself, but I've also seen up close, the differences between 5.56/.223 vs. 12ga. 00, 000 and even slugs. The 5.56 is capable of inflicting some very nasty wounds, but based on what I've seen(and I've seen alot) there's simply no comparison.

Shogun wounds are very range dependant. A point blank buck shot wound is nasty. But a 25 yards one is like looking at several pocket pistol rounds. Slugs are impressive and I feel they are the best stoppers you can get. But given I feel a good .223 load is better than a buck shot round. But thats my opinion. Your opinion is very worthy of respect from me being a former NYPD homicide detective.

My shotgun is only loaded with Breneke slugs these days. I only use it for animal calls. (bear in the summer moose in the winter) My Colt 6920 is my primary long gun for serious work. (Man with gun calls, shots fired ect)

Pat

[.45Super-Man]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Shogun wounds are very range dependant. A point blank buck shot wound is nasty. But a 25 yards one is like looking at several pocket pistol rounds. Slugs are impressive and I feel they are the best stoppers you can get. But given I feel a good .223 load is better than a buck shot round. But thats my opinion. Your opinion is very worthy of respect from me being a former NYPD homicide detective.

My shotgun is only loaded with Breneke slugs these days. I only use it for animal calls. (bear in the summer moose in the winter) My Colt 6920 is my primary long gun for serious work. (Man with gun calls, shots fired ect)

Pat
I know exactly what they look like both externally and internally. If we're talking home defense here(as indicated), then I'm not sure why the effectiveness @25yds.is relevant? I've only seen 5.56 used a handful of times in the 7 years that I've been involved in homicide, but the entrance wound can be invisible to the naked eye after initial cleanup(blood). It's basically a tiny flap of skin no larger than a pencil eraser, and nothing compared to the massive surface damage inflicted by the 12ga. The DRT between both was very different although there were other factors at play(there always is). I see you're from Alaska? Beautiful country there. That would be a great place to retire to I'd imagine. Take care, Dennis

[glock39]

Thanks to everybody for all the info! Sorry for the delay in responding, but my Mac spontaniously ate it's hard drive and I've been busy trying to rebuild the computer.

[rjm]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Shogun wounds are very range dependant. A point blank buck shot wound is nasty. But a 25 yards one is like looking at several pocket pistol rounds. Slugs are impressive and I feel they are the best stoppers you can get. But given I feel a good .223 load is better than a buck shot round. But thats my opinion. Your opinion is very worthy of respect from me being a former NYPD homicide detective.

My shotgun is only loaded with Breneke slugs these days. I only use it for animal calls. (bear in the summer moose in the winter) My Colt 6920 is my primary long gun for serious work. (Man with gun calls, shots fired ect)

Pat

Who has a room in their house that is 25 yards accross?

For my home defense needs I keep my .357 686+ and a 12 guage pump working in tandem with my german shepard.

[tom1980]

sorry for the question,

but what is meant by "neck" on the last picture?

[SIGShooter]

Originally posted by rjm
Who has a room in their house that is 25 yards accross?

For my home defense needs I keep my .357 686+ and a 12 guage pump working in tandem with my german shepard.


Donald Trump!


What did I win???


Who cares what the distance is. A 5.56/.223 wil do the job. You need to do yours and all is well. Everyones needs are different just like everyones wants and experience.




ETA: Neck, The thing your head sits on! Man I'm on it tonight. What did I win???

[walrus108]

Originally posted by SIGShooter
Donald Trump!


What did I win???


Who cares what the distance is. A 5.56/.223 wil do the job. You need to do yours and all is well. Everyones needs are different just like everyones wants and experience.




ETA: Neck, The thing your head sits on! Man I'm on it tonight. What did I win???

I don't think anybody here has said a 223 won't "do the job". The guy that started this already uses a 12g as his home defense gun. He wanted to know if a 223 would be a BETTER choice. It doesn't take too much shooting of both to decide what is more effective in home situations, when you KNOW that the distance will be very limited. There is no better caliber for very close quarters than a 12g. You can shoot a empty bucket with a 223. It will barely move. Now shoot it with a 12g. It will FLY BACK, at least 10 feet, every time. It's one of the few choices that actually does have real "knock down" power. Were a 223 has the advantage in distance with accuracy, a 12g shotgun has the up close advantage with spread. There is a tremendous amount more momentum in any 12g shotgun load over a 223. If you already have a shotgun, you could choose to buy a 223. We all want more guns. But to say you NEED a 223, to be better off in home defense over a 12g, is a hard argument to make. Even if you prefer a 223 for some reason, to ADVISE someone to make this switch, makes no sense. They do both have their pluses and minuses for sure. But let's face it. Most of our houses are perfectly sized to this "range dependent" shotgun scenario. Home defense plays right into a shotguns strengths. While there are a few things about the 223 that make it OK for home defense, it is more capable elsewhere, and has limitations inside a house. Horses for courses. A bolt action "sniper rifle" is to long range as a shotgun is to home defense. that being said, again, a 223 isn't a BAD choice for HD if that's what your comfortable with. But I cannot in good conscious advise someone to make the change for improvement from a 12g to a 223 for very close range.

[shackiejake]

Enage two or more targets inside your home and stop them quick as possible. I would take my AR any day over any of my shotguns. Up close in personel loaded with 40 grain HP I am confident the 223 will work and I can shot faster, make persicison shots, andr don't have to worry as much about shooting through sheet rock. Try making a shot on someone holding a family member hostage with your trusty 12 gauge. OH did I mentioned 30 rounds compared to 5 or maybe 7 at best 9 and then the shotgun is do long to work well indoors.

I shot three gun competions and belive me you must aim with a shotgun! The old point it and it will kill everything 20 yards away is bull, compelte bull.

Dead is dead, it does not matter what the wound looks like going in out etc. If you are shot with a shotgun or 223 and you die I'd say it would not matter alot to you.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by shackiejake
Enage two or more targets inside your home and stop them quick as possible. I would take my AR any day over any of my shotguns.

I agree the .223 is a far better choice and thats why so many SWAT entry teams are using .223 carbines instead of shotguns and submachine guns these days.

The advantages over the shotgun include, far less recoil, far greater rate of fire, far greater accuracy, less over penetration concerns even when compared to buck shot, far greater capacity. When it comes to stopping power the .223 is nothing to sneeze at.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/556_68_762_comparison.jpg
Pat

[SIGShooter]

Originally posted by walrus108
I don't think anybody here has said a 223 won't "do the job". The guy that started this already uses a 12g as his home defense gun. He wanted to know if a 223 would be a BETTER choice. It doesn't take too much shooting of both to decide what is more effective in home situations, when you KNOW that the distance will be very limited. There is no better caliber for very close quarters than a 12g. You can shoot a empty bucket with a 223. It will barely move. Now shoot it with a 12g. It will FLY BACK, at least 10 feet, every time. It's one of the few choices that actually does have real "knock down" power. Were a 223 has the advantage in distance with accuracy, a 12g shotgun has the up close advantage with spread. There is a tremendous amount more momentum in any 12g shotgun load over a 223. If you already have a shotgun, you could choose to buy a 223. We all want more guns. But to say you NEED a 223, to be better off in home defense over a 12g, is a hard argument to make. Even if you prefer a 223 for some reason, to ADVISE someone to make this switch, makes no sense. They do both have their pluses and minuses for sure. But let's face it. Most of our houses are perfectly sized to this "range dependent" shotgun scenario. Home defense plays right into a shotguns strengths. While there are a few things about the 223 that make it OK for home defense, it is more capable elsewhere, and has limitations inside a house. Horses for courses. A bolt action "sniper rifle" is to long range as a shotgun is to home defense. that being said, again, a 223 isn't a BAD choice for HD if that's what your comfortable with. But I cannot in good conscious advise someone to make the change for improvement from a 12g to a 223 for very close range.


First off, the OP asked a question/opinion. I gave them that (Answer/opinion). Second off, I have yet to tell the OP that they NEED anything. Third off, when I have an empty bucket breaking into my house then I'll use the 12 Ga. Please tell me were the .223 has limitations inside a house? Read the posts some more. There is nothing worng with using .223 for HD. Are you speaking from experience when you say the shotgun is the BETTER choice? If so please give the "BETTER" points to it, other than an empty bucket.

[Alaskapopo]

Right on Sigshooter. Also to Walurus there is no such thing as knockdown power even with the 12 gauge. And spread is not going to happen enough to matter at accross the room distances.
Pat

[shackiejake]

Now shoot it with a 12g. It will FLY BACK, at least 10 feet, every time. It's one of the few choices that actually does have real "knock down" power.

I can install a blunt tip on arrow and shoot it with my bow and it will fly backwards. Big deal, if I am ever attacked by some buckets I will remember to grab my shotgun however.

Also, ever action as an egual reaction. In this case it is called recoil. That is why you can't get quick follow up shots.

Rember dead is dead, I don't care what you do when you are shot slump forward backward, you are still probably dead with a solid hit from either one upclose.

[shackiejake]

As stated above knock down power is a myth. Unless you have handie a 120mm cannon or something.

Every action as an egual reaction. If a shotgun would blow someone off their feet it would knock you down when you shot it. Physics

[bigez1]

They both have there uses depending on the situation. If me and my wife are the only ones in the house and all I have to do is secure the room I am in I grab my 12ga and cover the door. I also have a niece and nephew that stay with us some and if I need to get to them I would grab my M4. It's easier to get through the house with and it's easier to fire quickly. Considering your going to have to grab and go I would would rather have 28 rounds of 223 than 5 of 00 buck.

[shackiejake]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigez1
[B]They both have there uses depending on the situation.

I agree they both do have their uses, mainly a 12 gauge is great for killing doves the opening day of dove season.

I personelly do not like a shotgun for defense for the reasons stated above, however if anyone is comfomatable with it that is their decison.

I also use to think how great a shotgun was for home defense, util I shot a couple of three gun matches. Since then it stays oiled up and waiting on hunting season. My AR stays out for home defense.

The only possible thing that I can think a shotgun has over a rifle for a cilivan is that is probably would sound a little better in the courtroom to have used a shotgun, instead of an AR.

[Guns & Cockpits]

Very compelling arguments for the .223 for HD, but I'm sticking with my 870.

Simply put, I have more confidence in it doing the job that I would need done in my environment. And I'm a heck of a lot more comfortable with it as well.

I do, however, keep both loaded at all times. The 870s got the TAP 00 buck and a final round slug, and the KT SU-16 has the TAP 65 grain HPs.

[Guns & Cockpits]

Originally posted by shackiejake
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bigez1
[B]They both have there uses depending on the situation.

I agree they both do have their uses, mainly a 12 gauge is great for killing doves the opening day of dove season.

I personelly do not like a shotgun for defense for the reasons stated above, however if anyone is comfomatable with it that is their decison.

I also use to think how great a shotgun was for home defense, util I shot a couple of three gun matches. Since then it stays oiled up and waiting on hunting season. My AR stays out for home defense.

The only possible thing that I can think a shotgun has over a rifle for a cilivan is that is probably would sound a little better in the courtroom to have used a shotgun, instead of an AR.

And this post is riddled with ignorance and generalizations. 12 gauge good for dove only? Hell, I wouldn't even recommend using a 12 gauge for dove. Too close range, and too much power. .410 is much better suited, and a 20 gauge will do as well.

12 gauges are used to hunt many an animal bigger than a drunk human my friend. Slugs are the choice of many an Alaskan guide worried about bear. Not gonna find too many .223 rounds there. And there's others of course.

Like I said, I'm not really on either side of this argument, but this post just got my goat a bit. We went a wee bit overboard.

[walrus108]

Originally posted by shackiejake
As stated above knock down power is a myth. Unless you have handie a 120mm cannon or something.

Every action as an egual reaction. If a shotgun would blow someone off their feet it would knock you down when you shot it. Physics

I quoted shackiejake but this answers many above post.

Of course I use lighter loads for defense but my 12g Mossberg, loaded with heavy 3 1/2 inch shells, has knocked many unsuspecting people who dared to shoot it on their butts. It is not at all pleasant. You must lean into it and prepare for the recoil. There is no way to shoot it even once without having a serious bruise wearing normal clothes. 3" magnum slugs or heavy shot at close range will put a deer straight to the ground right where he stands. I have seen it many times. That is the way I meant the term "knock down power". It will most likely end your ability to return fire instantly. Whatever it hit's, it destroys. You hit their arm straight on, you might blow it off. You hit their head, the same. A 223 might have a similar effect with a head shot but a 223 just doesn't have the FORCE that a 12g does. There is no way around that. A 223 isn't considered good for hunting anything larger than a coyote. There is a reason for that. It is not very likely to make a quick, humane kill on anything larger. I pretty much agree with most everything you all are saying. I just don't agree with your conclusion. Sigshooter seems to have taken my quoting him and responding personally. The pail demonstration is just something someone else might try. It has a very definite visual effect. If that don't work for you you could try hunting and shooting a deer with one, then another. But the fact is it's illegal to hunt deer with a 223 in many states because it can't put them down cleanly. A shotgun can and most often does. I have spoke to many soldiers just back from Iraq and the majority of them also say that when hit with an M4, many times the enemy is still able to return fire for a while. The M4 just doesn't have the effect of a 7.62x39 or 308 does. Your right, dead is dead, but the amount of time it takes is also a consideration. I know that even a shotgun slug isn't going to blow you back like in the movies, but it might knock/put you down. It's a figure of speech. Don't get all hung up on one of your pet peeves that you all like to jump on whenever you hear it. I knew I would get that very response when I used that phrase and you guys didn't disappoint. You guys need to lighten up a bit. ;) I did say that the 223 was a perfectly fine choice for defense. I did say that there were pluses and minuses for either. The person asking the question wanted to know if changing to a mini-14 was a better choice for home defense than a shotgun. While I can say a 223 is very good for home defense, IMO a shotgun is better. Some of you guys are actually trying to argue like a 12g is a HORRIBLE choice for defense and a 223 has it all over a 12g in every way. I too think we went more than a wee bit overboard here. You can disagree with me. I'm fine with that. But why must it get so disagreeable?

[bogey3737]

How does the blast from lighting off a .223 indoors compare to that of a 12 ga?

I was recently on a somewhat small indoor range (still bigger than any room in my house) with someone firing an AR...let's just say it made an impression! :shocked:

I could feel the blast in my chest whenever he fired a round and was wishing I put my plugs in under my muffs. I've only fired my 870 outdoors, so I don't really have a point of comparison. Granted, I probably won't care a great deal if the balloon ever goes up, but I think I might be at least a little dissoriented w/o hearing protection (which could be a HUGE problem) if I ever had to touch one off indoors.

[shackiejake]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guns & Cockpits
[B]And this post is riddled with ignorance and generalizations. 12 gauge good for dove only? Hell, I wouldn't even recommend using a 12 gauge for dove. Too close range, and too much power. .410 is much better suited, and a 20 gauge will do as well.

No disrepect, however you have never hunted a crowded dove field after the first hour when every bird is flying high as a SR71. You couldn't bring them down with a sidewinder missle when they start flying high. Good luck with a 410, 20 gauge not neccesary a bad choice, however 12 gauge rules and so 90 percent of the hunters I know them use them. Futher more to much power for birds, you ever heard of a choke and installing the correct one for the animal and the distance you are hunting.

Also so far as a 223 being underpower for hunting, maybe so. However you are leaving out one important thing, it is called distance. Not many people shoot animals at 25 feet or less. No comparing hunting and home defense for this very reason.

If you want to talk hunting well tell me why I see alest two or three deer a year skint out with shotgun pellets in them from being shot earlier in the year. Does that mean a shot gun is not effect for home defense?

Anyway the pros to using a 223 or listed above and are numerous. The pros for a shotgun or listed above and they seem to come down to killing buckets and extra stopping power. Up close and personel both will kill you immetialey with good shot placement. So I don't even consider the last statment even maters.

Let me say this also if all I had was a 870 I would be fine with it for home defense. However, if I had a choice I would diffently want my AR.

Lastly I have loged more hours hunting with a shotgun than a rifle. That is alot so please belive I am not ignorant to the uses of either. I have taken my share of deer with a shotgun more than the average hunter will ever take, mainly becasue in NC when running deer with dogs you can only hunt with a shotgun. I have seen deer dropped with shotguns and rifles. I know this to be a fact rifle kills are normally cleaner and quicker. That being said this is because rarley does someone get an entire load in a deer in a deer and therefore shot placement is more important than the weapon.

[walrus108]

Rifle kills does not equal 223 kills on deer. Most deer rifles are much more substantial than a 223. Like I said, 223 is illegal on deer for a reason most places. A shotgun MAY fail to cleanly put a deer down. If you dare try to use a 223 with even one of our small southern deer, (I'm in SC) you better be a good tracker, no matter where you hit them. I have hunted deer in MI where they run HUGE. There you can go to jail for hunting them with a 223cal. It is not considered sufficient. You could possibly only wound a deer with a 12g, that is true. But if you aim and hit them true, they will drop on the spot, within the shotguns range. You CANNOT do that with a 223 rifle. To try to equate a 223 with "rifle" is very misleading. Sure, it's a rifle. So is a 22lr. But a 223 won't drop a deer like a 30-06. They are both rifles. Many times a 30-06 will "knock a deer down" right where it stands too. Is this "knock down power", or is it instant death? LOL What would an '06 do to a bucket? :tongueout: You ask how many deer are taken at less than 25 yards?!? My answer is, AS MANY AS POSSIBLE! Have you ever bow hunted? The closer the better. And that doesn't change a thing. If it's 25 yards or 250 yards, a 223 is inadequate for deer hunting. It's not enough power. A 12g at 25 yards will kill it every time if you aim. Now you can't aim at the sun and expect a kill, even with a 12g. But at least it's capable. A 223 CAN kill a deer. But it will almost never drop it on the spot, no matter where you hit it, unless you are VERY lucky. With a shotgun we are almost always talking, with a good hit, instant death "within a shotguns range". I LIKE the 223 round. The question is, why do you deny a 12 gauge's power? You can choose your AR for defense. You most likely WILL be fine. I however submit that within a house's distance, 7 times out of 10, you'd be better off with a 12g. You can definitely hit moving targets with a 12g much better. Have you ever shot skeet with a 223? A 12g has way more momentum. You would waste a whole 30 round mag trying to hit the 3 small moving targets (skeet or other) I could blast in less than 1 second with a 12g. Hopefully neither of us will never realize a deficiency in our home defense choice. But I stand by mine. My only point is, and has been, that there is no reason to replace a 12g you are comfortable with, with any 223 cal rifle.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by Guns & Cockpits


12 gauges are used to hunt many an animal bigger than a drunk human my friend. Slugs are the choice of many an Alaskan guide worried about bear. Not gonna find too many .223 rounds there. And there's others of course.



The 12 gauge is good for birds and big game animals like Bear with Slugs. My 870 is loaded with Breneke slugs for bear and moose. My Colt 6920 (M4) is what I use for gun calls and building searches. You also find a lot of .223's up here in use by the police just like anywhere else in the country.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by walrus108
I The M4 just doesn't have the effect of a 7.62x39 or 308 does.

While the 308 is more effective the 7.62x39 is not. At least not on people. The round when loaded with FMJ ammo does not fragment and leaves a rather unimpressive wound.
Here are some pictures.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/wund4.gif

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/wund3.gif

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/wund2.gif

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/wund7.gif

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_308.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_223.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_30-30.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/energy_transfer_12ga.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/556_68_762_comparison.jpg

[SIGShooter]

Originally posted by Guns & Cockpits
And this post is riddled with ignorance and generalizations. 12 gauge good for dove only? Hell, I wouldn't even recommend using a 12 gauge for dove. Too close range, and too much power. .410 is much better suited, and a 20 gauge will do as well.

12 gauges are used to hunt many an animal bigger than a drunk human my friend. Slugs are the choice of many an Alaskan guide worried about bear. Not gonna find too many .223 rounds there. And there's others of course.

Like I said, I'm not really on either side of this argument, but this post just got my goat a bit. We went a wee bit overboard.


What?!?! Have you ever bird hunted? Have you ever been with a guide in AK? As far as going overboard... You should read your posts before hitting the submit button.

Now that the original question has been answered we are into a whole other realm.

I'll ask this one question... Have any of you "12 Ga. will KNOCK 'em down" guys ever seen the effects of a .223 on a human?

As for another quesiton that was asked... It is loud when you shoot any gun in a room. (Okay I'll retract "any" and add "most".) It is definitely loud with a 5.56/.223. (Notice I didn't mention a platform and yes this is personal experience.)

Walrus108: What do you smoke before you post? We are talking about 2 legged intruders here. We are giving opinions/personal experience. I don't know what the heck you're giving but to me it sounds like Charlie Brown's teacher talking. Sorry, just an observation. You aren't clear about anything so far. As for the whole bucket, deer, bear, bird thing...I don't even know what to say. Pat maybe you can help me out. This guy lost me.

[walrus108]

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
The 12 gauge is good for birds and big game animals like Bear with Slugs. My 870 is loaded with Breneke slugs for bear and moose. My Colt 6920 (M4) is what I use for gun calls and building searches. You also find a lot of .223's up here in use by the police just like anywhere else in the country.
Pat

Birds AND big game animals. That says a lot, doesn't it? Many patrol vehicles also have a 12g attached at the console.

[walrus108]

And Sigshooter, I am saying that a 12g at close range is just flat out more powerful AND more effective than a 223 rifle. I have seen many deer shot with a 12g and have even tested a mini-14 from a matter of feet on a deer carcass to determine effectiveness. Sorry, 12g wins. I guess all you will hear though is, wha-wa-wha-wha-wa-wahak! Hope I made myself clear! :rofl:

You guys should at least see that there is no malice or disrespect in any of my post. I am simply stating, what a lifetime of hunting with various calibers has shown me. (On Deer and other critters) IMO, if a round won't drop an amazing animal, who is tough as hell, like a deer, it won't drop an intruder either. If a deer can run after a shot, a man can shoot or stab back. It seems pretty simple to me. By the way, I don't smoke.

[Alaskapopo]

Originally posted by walrus108
Birds AND big game animals. That says a lot, doesn't it? Many patrol vehicles also have a 12g attached at the console.

Yes the shotgun was used for quite a while in Law Enforcment so was the revolver. But both have been slowly replaced with better guns. In the shotguns case that has been the .223 carbine.

Here are some articles for you to read.

.223 for CQB
by R.K. Taubert
About the author: A recently retired FBI Agent with over 20 years experience in SWAT and Special Operations, he conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while in the Bureau.
Reprinted and edited with permission.
Close Quarter Battle Reputation
Several interesting but inconclusive articles examining the feasibility of the .223 caliber, or 5.56x45mm round, for CQB events, such as hostage rescue and narcotics raids, have recently been featured in a variety of firearms and police publications. However, for more than 20 years, conventional law enforcement wisdom generally held that the .223 in any configuration was a deeply penetrating round and, therefore, totally unsuited for CQB missions in the urban environment. Partly because of this erroneous, but long held perception, and other tactical factors, the pistol caliber submachine gun (SMG) eventually emerged as the primary shoulder "entry" weapon for the police and military SWAT teams.
Although new revelations about the .223 are beginning to slowly circulate throughout the Special Operations community, a number of law enforcement agencies are in the process of acquiring the next generation of "advanced" SMGs in 10mm and .40 S&W calibers. Could they and the public be better served by a .223 caliber weapons system and at less expense? Please read on and judge for yourself.
FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.
These tests were conducted by the FBI’s Firearms Training Unit (FTU), at the request of the Bureau Tactical and Special Operations personnel. Located at the FBI academy in Quantico, VA, this is the same unit with the encouragement of forensic pathologist Dr. Martin Fackler and other ballistic experts, that dramatically advanced the testing of modern handgun rounds to estimate their wounding effectiveness and potential lethality. Ultimately, this entity confirmed that permanent crush cavities, or "wound-channels," and deep penetration were the primary factors for handgun-fired projectiles. The FTU further determined that under various target engagement circumstances, a depth of penetration in soft tissue of between 12 to 18 inches was required for a handgun bullet to be effective.
Equipment Employed / Rounds Tested
For these series of tests the following firearms, ammunition and equipment were employed:

• Sealed, match grade test barrel to determine 25 yard, 10-shot group accuracy and 20-round velocity potential.
• 20" barreled, M16A1 rifle to stabilize and test rounds ranging from 40 to 55 grains in weight.
• 20" barreled, M16A2 rifle to stabilize and test rounds ranging from 62 to 69 grains in weight.
• Oehler Model 85 chronograph.
• Ransom type rifle rest, with laser bore sighting.
• Numerous blocks of Kind and Knox 250-A, 10% gelatin, to simulate living tissue.
• Federal’s 40-grain "Blitz" hollow point, 55-grain soft point and 69-grain hollow point; 9mm 147-grain Hydra-Shok, 10mm and .40 S&W 180-grain, jacketed hollow points.
• Winchester’s 55- and 62-grain full metal case, NTO-military spec. rounds.

As indicated, both rifles were fired from a mechanical rest. Ten-shot groups and 20-round velocity tests were fired for each round. 13 penetration tests were conducted. 95 rounds were fired for each type of round tested. A total of 760 rounds were tested and recorded for this project.
Test Protocol
Tests 1-6:
Bare gelatin, heavy clothing, automobile sheet metal, wallboard, plywood, and vehicle windshield safety glass, were shot a distance of 10 feet from the muzzle. The vehicle safety glass was set at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizontal, with the line of bore of the rifle/SMG offset 15 degrees to the side resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass, which simulates a shot directed at the driver of a car closely missing the shooter. Furthermore, the gelatin was covered with light clothing and set back 18 inches behind the glass. All gelatin blocks, with the exception of the body armor barrier, were set 18 inches behind each solid obstacle shot.
Tests 7-13:
All involved shots through heavy clothing, safety glass and bare gelatin at 50 to 100 yards, concluding with internal walls, external walls and body armor at 10 feet. Test eight however, involved safety glass at 20 yards, shot dead-on, without the 15 degree offset, to simulate a shot at a car’s driver bearing down on the shooter.
For the connivance of the reader, test results are summarized in the following chart. Please note that the data displayed represents the average penetration of these rounds as measured in 10% ballistic gelatin (see tables 1 and 2).
Considering that the average person’s torso is 9 inches thick, front to back, all the .223 rounds ranging in weight from 55 to 69 grains appear to be adequate performers on soft targets where frontal shots are involved. Although the majority of target engagements are frontal, profile shots can and do occur. A .223 round that is required to pass through an arm before entering the rib cage mat, upon striking bone, fragment, and while possibly shattering the appendage, would most likely not be successful in producing a sufficiently deep body cavity wound to be decisive. In this, as with any CQB encounter, "controlled pairs," or rapid-repeat hits may be required to ensure target neutralization.
Defeating Ballistic Garments
Soft body armor appears to have little effect on the calibers ability to penetrate and actually seemed to enhance the 40-grain Blitz’s depth of penetration in soft tissue.
From a law enforcement standpoint, the ability of the .223 caliber round to defeat soft body armor, military ballistic helmets and many ballistic shields is a "double-edged sword." The criminal use of body armor is rare, but increasing. Possessing the ability to penetrate and adversary’s protective vest is obviously desirable. However, this round will also defeat law enforcement vests, so great care must be exercised in laying out and observing fields of fire in training and during operations. With this concern over potential fratricide in mind, voices have been raised in some quarters regarding this bilateral tactical attribute. A number of veteran officers strongly embrace The traditional concept that a department’s duty rounds should not exceed the capabilities of their vests. Arguably, this is a sound approach for any law enforcement agency to take for its non-tactical response personnel. However, SWAT, because of its specialized missions, may be a different matter and this later concern, while important, should not dominate the rationale supporting weapons selection by highly competent tactical units.
Although it has been reported that less that 1% of all serious crimes involve long guns and less than 8% of long gun related crimes involve rifles, law enforcement is being confronted more frequently by criminals with weapons and munitions that are capable of defeating all but the heaviest ballistic protection. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting Section indicates, for example, that rifles were involved in 13% of the assaults on police officers during 1992. The incident a Waco, Texas, is a recent example of this problem. For forced entry teams, the need for higher levels of ballistic protection is essential.
For safe training of specialized law enforcement teams, the development of a lead-free, low penetration, short-range 5.56mm/.223 caliber training round that will (1) not penetrate ballistic vests and helmets, (2) destroy "shooting house" walls, (3) crater, or perforate steel-reactive targets, is extremely important. Fortunately, it appears that private industry is responding to these demands and such munitions are currently being developed.
Vehicle Interaction
With the exception of the full metal case and the 69-grain JHP rounds, it appears inadvisable to select lighter weight, soft or hollow point versions of this caliber when automobiles are likely to be engaged during planned raids and arrests. Penetration against automobile windshield safety glass is generally very poor and is only slightly better on sheet steel. Although terrorists from the insurgent New Peoples’ Army were able to blast their way through an armored limousine in the Philippines and murder a highly regarded

[Alaskapopo]

U.S. military official with concentrated M-16 rifle fire, the SMG-fired pistol round demonstrates at least a theoretical, if not practical, edge against such hardened targets.
Interestingly, while penetration on auto glass and sheet steel is marginal, .223 projectiles will readily perforate and breach mild steel such as standard pepper poppers, that pistol rounds will only slightly dimple. However, very little of the .223’s mass is retained, so after defeating mild steel, significant wound potential is severely diminished upon exit.
Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.
As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.
.223 Wounding Characteristics
Ballisticians and Forensic professionals familiar with gunshot injuries generally agree that high velocity projectiles of the .223 genre produce wounds in soft tissue out of proportion to their calibers, i.e. bullet diameter. This phenomenon is primarily attributed to the synergistic effects of temporary stretch cavity (as opposed to the relatively lower velocity stretching which typifies most pistol rounds) and bullet fragmentation on living tissue.
Distinguished forensic pathologist Dr. Martin L. Fackler, observed when he was conducting wound research for the U.S. Army several years ago ("Wounding Patterns of Military Rifles," International Defense Review, Volume 22, January, 1989), that in tissue simulants such as ballistic gelatin, , the 55-grain, M-193 military bullet lost stability, yawed (turned sideways) 90 degrees, flattened and broke at the cannelure (groove around the bullet into which the cartridge case is crimped) after penetrating about four to five inches. The forward portion of the bullet generally remained in one piece, accounting for 60% of its originally weight. The rear, or base portion of the bullet, broke into numerous fragments that may also penetrate tissue up to a depth of three inches. Dr. Fackler also noted that a relatively large stretch cavity also occurred, violently stretching and weakening tissue surrounding the primary wound channel and its effect was augmented by tissue perforation and further weakening by numerous fragments. An enlarged permanent cavity significantly larger than the bullet diameter resulted by severing and detaching tissue pieces. However, as the range increases, the degree of bullet fragmentation and temporary cavitation decreases because terminal velocity diminishes. At 100 meters, Fackler observed that the bullet, upon penetrating tissue, breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments. However, beyond 200 meters, it no longer looses its integrity, although flattening continues to somewhat occur out to 400 meters.
In his study, Fackler remarked that in abdominal shots, "There will be increased tissue disruption (beyond the bullet diameter wound channel) from the synergistic effect of the temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation. Instead of observing a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestines, we typically find a void left by missing tissue up to three inches in diameter." However, "unless a extremity (peripheral hit) is sufficiently thick like a thigh, or the bullet does not strike bone, the round may pass through an arm for instance, causing little damage from a puncture type wound."
Regarding NATO’s 62-grain FMC M-855 (SS109) .223 caliber round Dr. Fackler observed that the bullet produces a wound profile similar to the M-193’s, particularly where abdominal or thigh wounds were involved. Other sources indicate this bullet, with a [steel] core penetrator, exhibits 10% greater fragmentation and retains its ability to fragment at slightly longer ranges than the 55-grain military bullet. [Keep in mind that the M-855 round, because of its steel core, has a length comparable to a 73-grain lead core bullet, and should be shot out of longer barrels (18+ inches) with tighter twists in order to retain good pratical accuracy],
Hollow and soft point bullets in this caliber can be expected to upset and fragment much sooner and more consistently that full metal case (FMC) bullets. In light of this more consistent performance, Fackler recommends hollow points over "ball" ammunition for police use, providing the HP bullet penetrates deep enough to disrupt something vital. However, in his candid opinion the most effective round currently available for law enforcement operations is the 64-grain, Winchester-Western, pointed soft point, currently referred to as "Power Point". This bullet has a heavier jacket than those tested by the FBI, resists hyper-fragmentation, penetrates well and "expands like a .30 caliber rifle round." Subsequent FBI tests of this round fired from Colt’s 14.5-inch barreled Mk-IV carbine bore this out and bullet expansion was "impressive."
Dr. Fackler also advised that the synergistic effects of fragmentation and high velocity temporary cavitation cannot be scientifically measured in gelatin because that medium is too elastic. More Accurate results can be obtained by examination of fresh animal tissue soon after it is shot.
Range Limitations
Federal’s Blitz round, because of its very high velocity, low weight and frangible construction, demonstrated extremely poor overall penetration in the FBI tests. If it is considered for CQB use, it should be fired from ultra-short barreled weapons, such as Heckler & Koch’s, 8.85-inch barreled HK-53. Shorter barrels would bleed off excessive velocity to reliably fragment and produce good temporary stretch cavities at close range. Because of this velocity loss, the maximum effective range on personnel would most likely be 100 yards or less. To ensure that .223 caliber bullets perform as previously described by Dr. Fackler, it appears that a minimum target striking velocity of 2,500 feet per second (fps) is required. Bullets over 50 grains in weight may not accelerate to this critical velocity in barrels less than 10 to 11 inches in length. Tactical teams should therefore carefully select the appropriate barrel length for their CQB weapon, to ensure that the round they employ will deliver minimum terminal ballistic velocities at the ranges desired and balance it against maneuverability requirements [Also remember that dr. fackler’s data is based on the FMJ ball ammo results and that hollow point ammunition will be as effective with lower velocities]. "Bull pup" configured carbines, such as the Steyr AUG, enjoy a distinct advantage here, because they retain long barrel lengths with relatively compact overall dimensions and are as flexible as an SMG in confined areas. In fact, a Steyr AUG compares favorably to H&K’s MP5-SD SMG in overall length and with a 16-inch barrel, is only an inch longer overall than a 14-inch barreled Remington 870 raid shotgun.
[At this point, Mr. Taubert’s article goes into extreme range shooting and barrel length. His suggestion is to have a barrel at least 14-18 inches long for CQB use as this allows for useful terminal ballistics at around 150-200 yards with 60+ grain bullets. I disagree with Mr. Taubert’s point of view for the simple fact that we are discussing Close Quarters firearms, and not long range sniping firearms. In these instances, a barrel length of 6-10 inches is practical for entry team use as it allows for greater maneuverability and acceptable ballistic performance with 55-grain hollow point ammunition. Also, a lot of Mr. Taubert’s information is based off of Dr. Fackler’s research using FMJ ammunition. Most of my information is based upon real-world shootings and actual testing of commercial ammunition in short barreled firearms designed for this application.]
A recent review of major U.S. ammunition manufacturers’ pricing indicates that commercially loaded .223 ammunition is slightly less expensive than similarly configured premium hollow point pistol ammunition. With millions of rounds of surplus military .223 ammunition possibly available to law enforcement, because of numerous base closures and through low cost channels, training with this caliber could be highly cost effective.
The .223 carbine is able to satisfy both close and intermediate range requirements and presents a good argument for eliminating the necessity for the law enforcement SMG.

[Alaskapopo]

This one-gun concept will not only stretch departmental funds in this respect and reduce training requirements, but in some cases the difference in price between a single-fire carbine and a select-fire SMG often amounts to several hundreds of dollars. The need for full automatic fire with the M-16 carbine is debatable and two single-fire versions can often be purchased by police agencies for the cost of one top-of-the-line SMG. [This is a fact that I have been preaching for a long time. Another fact that Mr. Taubert does not touch on is that the M-16/AR-15 family of rifles use a split receiver system that allows the rapid exchange of differently configured uppers. This allows one officer to carry a 16" CAR-15 in is patrol vehicle as his secondary firearm, and a 6" upper receiver unit in his trunk for tactical entry use]
As a result of contemporary research, such as that conducted by the first FBI’s Wound Ballistic Workshop, some law enforcement agencies have expressed the opinion that concerns about pistol bullet overpenetration were exaggerated. They cite the toughness and flexibility of the human skin in resisting bullet exit and the fact that police officers historically missed their intended targets most of the time in actual shootings. While poor hit ratios and overpenetration may not be critical to some for individual gun battles that occur in the street, these marksmanship realities can become real planning and safety concerns when establishing fields of fire during raids, hostage rescues and other tactical operations.
Typically, these operations involve confined areas, where officers occupy positions in close proximity to each other. In close combat operations, every round expended must be accounted for. It is imperative that that rounds fired hit their intended targets and not pass through them to endanger other officers and innocent bystanders. If misses occur, it is desirable that once the stray round strikes a solid object, it expends its energy and disintegrates into relatively harmless pieces. If deep, barrier penetration is necessary, special ammunition or projectiles [or weapons] possessing this attribute can be selected.
Shootout Results
It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cities’ police tactical unit executed a search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a "biker residence." The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr AUG .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with 28 Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because the team leaders anticipated shots "out to 25 yards."
The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While the other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201-pound subject, high on "speed", suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between the adversaries was approximately 20 feet. With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded, "Police, put your hands up," while clearing the Steyr’s safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.
When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: • Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. • The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.
What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type o terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
Although this is only one incident and could be an aberration, police tactical teams require this type of terminal ballistic performance to enhance their safety and survival particularly during CQB engagements, when criminals most often enjoy a positional and action-versus-reaction time advantage.
The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.
Observations and experience indicate that high velocity rifle bullets generally produce more serious wounds in tissue than pistol bullets, regardless of range.
Violent temporary cavitation, in conjunction with bullet yaw and fragmentation, are essential wounding components for high velocity rifle projectiles.
As range and bullet stability increases and velocity decreases, rifle caliber wound severity decreases and penetration increases.
Where soft target penetration requirements exist and overpenetration concerns are prevalent, police should employ hollow point bullets in this caliber.
Full metal case or heavier soft point bullets may be more appropriate for hard target penetration in this caliber.
The .223 and the current carbine systems available for it are highly versatile and well suited for urban as well as rural operations. However, because of enhanced terminal ballistic performance, rifles are recommended if targets are expected to be engaged beyond 200 meters. [The .223 round itself should not be used in law enforcement applications at any ranges outside of 300 yards/meters. Long distance shots should be left to highly trained sniper units using medium caliber centerfire rifle ammunition. e.g. .308/7.62 NATO. Also, the majority of police sniper shots occur within 100 yards/meters.]
The ability to train with one shoulder weapon and caliber for both CQB and open air options simplifies logistics and training, makes training more effective and is cost effective. [Again, one upper for general, secondary weapon usage, and one upper for CQB]
Under current pricing, police agencies can realize significant savings by purchasing single-fire carbines instead of select-fire machine guns.
Because of the "political" considerations and perhaps the concern over the possibility of more serious injuries caused by errant "friendly fire," the highly versatile and powerful .223 carbine may not be a suitable CQB firearm for some departments. However, if the above factors are not involved, the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
[It has been a recently growing trend to see law enforcement departments exchanging their issue shotguns for the police carbine in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. And many departments have found that these carbines do not serve their needs as they expected. However, they are fearful to switch, or in many cases purchase, .223 carbines because "they will go through 10 people and 3 city blocks before they stop!" As you can see, this is not the case, and is in fact, completely the opposite. I hope that this article helps to clear all false truths and misnomers about this very versatile and serviceable cartridge.]
ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

[Alaskapopo]

Now a good shotgun article.

Some Thoughts on the Combat Shotgun
Copyright ) 1997 John Schaefer

Background

The use of multi-projectile small arms in combat can be traced back to the
beginnings of firearms. However, the first military use of the shotgun, as
we know it today, probably occurred during the campaigns of the American
West during the 1860s and '70s. They were used with great success by the US
Army in the trench fighting of World War I where the Winchester Model 1897
pump shotgun gained its fame. Shotguns were also used by the US Marines in
the Pacific jungle fighting during WW II and by the British during the 1950s
in Malaysia. In the Vietnam action they became popular for counter-ambush
use and for defense of fortified hamlets.

The modern fighting shotgun, or "riot-gun," is typically a pump action or
semiautomatic 12 gauge shotgun with a 18 to 20 inch cylinder bore barrel.
They are frequently fitted with extended capacity magazine tubes. In the
most common configuration the combat shotgun is fitted with nothing more
than a simple bead front sight. However, the "rifle sighted" versions
commonly called "deer" or "slug" guns are also in general use and are much
superior as we shall see.

Shotguns have an imposing appearance when viewed from the muzzle due to
their large bore diameter. The large size of their cartridges implies
"power," and the sound of a pump shotgun being operated commands everyone's
instant attention. Because of these traits, a great deal of myth and
misinformation has grown up around the riotgun.

If one is to believe the media, a charge of buckshot from a typical riotgun
spreads out to about six feet in diameter at the muzzle. It then roars down
range with an effect just slightly less than a tactical nuclear device. On
the other hand, some say that the riotgun is only a very short range weapon
with limited use and effectiveness. The truth, it turns out, is somewhere in
between.


The Effectiveness Dilemma

At this point a brief discussion of small arms "effectiveness" is in order.
When talking about the effectiveness of any small arms system, it should be
noted that the military looks at effectiveness in a different light than the
law enforcement or civilian user. The police officer or civilian is
interested in the immediate termination of the actions of the individual
shot-the proverbial "instant incapacitation." The military on the other hand
is primarily interested in creating a wound that will require medical
treatment and hopefully the use of several other enemy troops to help the
individual who was hit.
Thus, the military considers that an effective hit is one that delivers
approximately 58 foot pounds of energy to the target rather than one that
instantly shuts down the target.

While a shot pattern typically opens up about 1" per yard of range, a good
riotgun with a load of #4, #1, or 00 buck can provide several, if marginal,
hits on a full length human target out to about eighty yards at that range
when directed with a good set of sights, but one does not get "instant
incapacitation." If viewed in the military perspective the 12 gauge riotgun
firing buckshot can be "effective" on individual targets at that range.

The table below shows the average results of firing at fifty and
seventy-five yards at a full length human silhouette with #4, #1, 00, and
000 buck from cylinder bored, rifle sighted, riotgun. Note: most of the hits
at 75 yards were very "marginal."

Loading Avg. Number of Hits
(Full sized humanoid target)
50 Yards 75 Yards
27 pellet 4 buck 10 3
34 pellet 4 buck 6 2
16 pellet 1 buck 6 2
20 pellet 1 buck 7 4
9 pellet 00 buck 3 1
12 pellet 00 buck 4 2
8 pellet 000 buck 1 0

Lest anyone think that only one or two pellets of buckshot will effectively
turn off an attacker, consider what is actually striking the target. A
pellet of 00 buck is essentially a 54 grain, .33 caliber projectile that is
traveling between 1000 and 1300 feet per second. This puts the effectiveness
of each pellet of 00 buckshot at the muzzle somewhere between that of the
.32 ACP and .380 ACP cartridges, neither of which any serious person will
bet their life upon. The table below gives some interesting data.
Shot Size Pellet Diameter (in) Pellet Weight (gr) Sectional
Density Velocity (fps-20" bbl) Individual Energy (ft lb) Number of pellets
in loading Total Weight (oz) Total Energy
(ft lb)
000 .36 70 .077 1265 250 8 in 2>" 1.3 2,000
00 .33 54 .070 1295 200 9 in 2>" 1.1 1,810
0 .32 48 .066 1200 155 12 in 2>" 1.3 1,860
1 .30 40 .063 1215 130 16 in 2>" 1.5 2.080
4 .24 20 .052 1260 70 27 in 2>" 1.2 1,890
#6 Shot .11 1.9 .022 1290 7 280 in 2>" 1.25 1,970
.32 ACP .31 71 .104 900 130 - - -
.380 ACP .35 90 .102 950 190 - - -
38SPL +P .35 158 .177 890 280 - - -
At 75 yards a 00 buck pellet is only traveling at about 830 f/s and has only
about 85 ft lb of kinetic energy. At 100 yards the kinetic energy is about
70 ft lb. In addition, shot, because of its spherical shape (and thus low
sectional density) has inherently poor penetration compared to a
conventional bullet, especially if deformed by intervening material. (#4
buckshot is especially known for this problem.) The so-called "premium"
buckshot loads with their hardened and/or plated pellets generally give
better performance because the pellets don't deform as much.


A Penetrating Study

To determine what kind of penetration could be expected the following data
was obtained from various published and International Wound Ballistics
Association (IWBA) sources. The #6 birdshot load of copper plated hardened
shot (2>" - 1< oz -3< Dram) that is often recommended as an ideal solution
for the in-home scenario was fired at five yards to discover the
effectiveness of that loading at in-house/across-the-room ranges. All other
penetration data was obtained at seven yards. It is generally accepted by
those involved in the wound ballistics field that a minimum penetration of
twelve inches of 10 percent ordnance gelatin is one of the criteria needed
to provide reliable incapacitation of a human assailant.
12 Gauge Penetration Tests
10% Gelatin
Load Number of Pellets Penetration
@ 7 yards
000 Buck 8 14" - 16"
00 Buck 9 13" - 15"
1 Buck 16 12" - 14"
#4 Buck 27 9" - 11"
#6 Shot (Hard shot) 280 9" - 10" (@5 yd)
1 oz Foster Slug - 18"
450 gr SABOT Slug - 21"

As can be seen from the table, the often recommended standard 4 buck load is
lacking in penetration. This has been confirmed by data from numerous field
experiences and is especially true if the target has any "give" to it such
as a loosely fitted leather jacket. The #6 shot often recommended for home
protection also gives marginal penetration. To insure adequate penetration
under all conditions you should stick with 1 buck or larger shot although
the #6 shot will probably suffice for the initial in-home encounter at
"across the bed distances," where the shot charge is still essentially a
single mass, when backed up by a buckshot round.

[Alaskapopo]

In addition, shot's spherical shape doesn't give a very good ballistic
coefficient (00 buck has a nominal Gs coefficient of about .071
(approximately .045 G1) compared to .104 G1 for a 71 gr .32 caliber FMJ
bullet or .390 for a 150 gr .30 caliber spitzer) and the velocity drops off
rapidly as you can see below.
Performance of 00 Buckshot
Range Velocity
0 1290
50 1060
100 780
Since the shotgun with slugs is frequently used against "hard" targets
penetration tests were done, using standard NATO steel test plates. Buckshot
loads are shown for comparison and the results are given in the table below.


12 ga Penetration Tests

SAE 1010 .138" steel plate

Load 7 yd 25 yd
000 Buck N N
00 Buck N N
1 Buck N N
4 Buck N N
1 oz Foster Slug P D
450 gr Sabot Slug P P

P = Penetrated
D = Dented
N = No Effect


Slugging It Out

Contrary to popular belief, the shotgun with conventional Foster slugs is
not hopelessly inaccurate. The myth of the "inaccurate" slug probably got
started by those individuals trying to hit a target with shotgun equipped
with a front bead sight only. The average fighting shotgun, (eighteen to
twenty inch cylinder bored barrel) using good ammunition and fitted with
proper sights, can easily, group five shots into ten inches or less at 100
yards, and inside of four to five inches at fifty yards. While this is not
tack driving performance it is more than adequate for use against human
assailants or deer sized game out to 75 to 100 yards.
Most people think that the trajectory of the 12 gauge rifled slug is close
to that of a mortar, and since they don't think they could hit anything past
25 or 50 yards (which is probably true if they don't have a set of sights on
their shotgun) they zero for slugs at 25 yards. Unfortunately, this short
zero severely limits the effectiveness of the slug firing shotgun.
Surprisingly, a slug's trajectory is quite flat out to about 125 yards
(assuming the proper zeroing range). The biggest limitation of the shotgun
slug is that penetration and trajectory drop off drastically beyond 125
yards due to velocity loss, so its maximum effective range is probably about
125 yards. (I still wouldn't want to be hit by a slug at 200 yards though!)
12ga Foster Type Rifled Slug (G1 = .109)
(20" barreled riotgun with ghostring sights)
Range Velocity Zero = 75 Zero = 100
0 1440 -1.0 -1.0
25 1320 0.7 1.4
50 1200 1.1 2.5
75 1120  2.1
100 1050 -2.8 
125 1000 -7.5 -4.0
150 960 -14.4 -10.2
A problem with slugs at the longer ranges is their reduced hard target
penetration due to velocity drop and generally soft lead construction.
However, even at 100+ yards they will take any opponent out of the fight
unless they are behind heavy cover. During a course I attended students had
no problem consistently hitting humanoid sized steel targets at ranges up to
100 yards. The resulting impact left no doubt that an assailant would have
been deactivated.
The new sabot'ed sub-caliber slugs that have become popular can decrease
group size when fired from a conventionally bored shotgun that likes them,
and they offer increased penetration at the longer ranges. However, they are
really designed for use in shotguns with rifled choke tubes or fully rifled
barrels. Fired from weapons so configured, 100 yard five-shot groups of four
inches or less are quite common. Unfortunately the rifling plays havoc with
the patterning of buckshot. One problem commonly reported with the saboted
slugs, especially in a smooth barrel is that about ten percent of the time
the sabot fails to separate cleanly causing a really wide flyer.

Training
The question is often raised about why even bother with the study of the
shotgun when most folks with any training would CHOOSE to grab something
other than a shotgun when the brown stuff hits the fan. Besides the fact
that they are "issued" to many people one of the "nice" things about a
shotgun is that they are politically correct in most locations (i.e.
"sporting") even with a "sighted slug barrel" and thus may be more readily
available to many people. Proper doctrine demands that the most efficient
use of all different firearms be explored and perfected--thus the technique
of the shotgun.
Several years ago I took a course on the combat use of the shotgun. There I
learned first hand just what can be accomplished with a properly configured
and handled riotgun when you know what is going on.
The modern technique of the shotgun is based on three principles:
. The fitting of proper sights and their use.
. The "zone system" of ranging.
. The proper selection of ammunition and the knowledge of the shotgun's
performance (patterning and grouping) with the ammunition being used.
Sights - The typical fighting shotgun has been historically fitted with the
standard bead front sight as used by generations of shotgunners for wing
shooting. While this arrangement may work well for the wing shot, it does
not work effectively in the antipersonnel role. A bird or clay target can be
brought down with relatively few hits by small diameter pellets. Thus, a
wing shot merely points the shotgun at the target using the bead as a
reference, follows through, and relies upon the spread of the shot to get a
hit.
However, the termination of the actions of a human assailant requires the
delivery of a powerful blow. Therefore, what is needed is to deliver the
maximum blow possible by obtaining the maximum number of penetrating hits
well centered on the target. To accomplish this consistently requires the
use of sights and a method of determining optimum engagement distances for
the shotgun.
The single front bead sight so common on hunting shotguns and many riotguns
is for all intents and purposes useless for this purpose since without a
rear reference precise aiming is impossible. While typical open rifle sights
as found on commercial "deer" or "slug" barrels are usable, the most
effective sights are the type now generally called "ghost ring" sights. The
ghost ring sighting system is really nothing more than a thick flat-topped
front sight blade used with a large opening, thin rimmed rear aperture sight
mounted close to the eye. In use it is amazingly fast and precise and most
serious users of the combat shotgun have their weapons so fitted.

However, an interesting discovery about sights was made during the class
that I attended. The factory "open" type rifle sights fitted to most sighted
shotguns can be greatly improved as to speed of acquisition and practical
accuracy. Simply replace the narrow bead-topped front sight blade with a
wider (.1 to .125 inch) flat-topped blade. Then, mill the rear sight flat
across the top and open the notch to a square shape much like a pistol
sight. The resulting sighting system, while not the equal of a ghost ring,
is far superior to the original sights in speed of acquisition. This would
seem to be an ideal solution for organizations that can't afford to equip
all of their shotguns with the ghost ring system.
The Zone System - While the use of sights will enable a target to be hit, a
method is needed to help determine the optimum engagement distances for the
ammunition used. The zone system sets up bands of weapon performance versus
ammunition selection. The first or "A" zone extends from the muzzle to about
seven yards, where the pattern has expanded to between four and seven
inches. Within this range the shot charge is effectively a single projectile

[Alaskapopo]

and it is quite easy to miss a human sized target unless sights are used.
The "B" zone extends from the end of the "A" zone to that range where charge
of buckshot has spread to about the width of the human torso (about twenty
inches). This occurs at a range of between twenty to thirty-five yards for
most weapons. Since the shot charge is spreading out the pattern must be
centered to effectively turn off an assailant. While hits can be obtained
without proper sights, it is just as fast and much more positive to do it
with sights. At the course that I attended the maximum range for the "B"
zone for a given ammunition was determined by the range at which the shotgun
would consistently knock down a 10 inch diameter steel lollipop target with
the buckshot used. (One student's shotgun would consistently drop the target
at 35 yards and about 50% of the time at 40 yards! That's patterning!)
Past end of the "B" zone, at twenty-five yards or so depending on the
individual weapon, even with modern buffered loads and hardened buckshot the
shot charge spreads so much that the majority of pellets may not strike the
target that is aimed at. This area is called the "C" zone and this is where
the rifled slug comes into play. At the course that I attended one of the
techniques taught is a "select slug" drill that teaches the rapid switching
to a slug round with a shotgun loaded with buckshot when a C zone target
appears. While the approximate distances of the zones can be memorized, many
of the students used the width of the thick ghost ring system front sight
blade as a reference for the B/C break point but once practiced a couple of
times you get a feel for when it's time to switch and it becomes automatic.
Some folks may comment at this point, "Why not just use slugs for everything
and forget about buckshot" and some folks actually do that. Unfortunately,
there are a couple of flies in the ointment with this approach. First, the
use of buckshot is mandated by many organizations with slugs reserved for
"special" use. Second, slugs will shoot clean through most soft targets so
they must be employed carefully for general use.
The biggest problem with both buckshot and slugs is that their performance
is highly individual weapon dependent, which brings us to the third
principle.
Ammunition selection - Several noted gunsmiths who are familiar with
shotguns have stated that the patterning or grouping ability of shotgun
barrels is 1/10 gun-smithing and 9/10s magic. Barrels with effectively
identical internal and external dimensions and chokes will give widely
varying performances with different shot sizes, loadings, and brands. This
is especially true with slugs where a barrel can show a three to five inch
difference in group size simply by changing the brand of slugs.
Because the performance of a given barrel is so dependent on the particular
ammunition trying to document patterning or group testing is a waste of
time. However, using the same brand of standard 00 buckshot in a variety
typical riot-guns I have observed 25 yd patterns ranging from 4>"(!) up to
25", and 5-shot slug groups using standard Foster type slugs ranging from
slightly under 3" to over 5".
Some ammunition types such as the reduced velocity Federal and Remington
"Tactical" buckshot loads generally give reduced pattern diameter in just
about every weapon they are fired in because of the lower pellet
deformation. However, there are always exceptions. Thus, it is extremely
important to zero and pattern your shotgun with the actual ammunition that
you will be using. This will allow you to determine the performance of and
the appropriate zones for your combination.

Some Odds and Ends
Besides the barrel itself, another item that can affect patterning and group
sizes is the hanging of extension magazines on the shotgun. A poorly fitted
extension magazine or one with a misaligned clamping strap can drastically
alter your weapon's performance. During the class I found that a misaligned
clamp was moving my point of impact over eighteen inches to the left with
both slugs and buckshot. It also opened the shot pattern by almost three
inches and the fifty yard slug groups by three to four inches!
Even with a properly fitted extension magazine and clamp, the tension of the
clamp screw can alter your point of impact. Always replace the clamp in
exactly the same position and tighten all screws to the same tension each
time. If your shotgun is so fitted, check its performance with and without
the clamp. You will no doubt be surprised at what happens.
If the extension tube is properly manufactured and fitted very tightly there
is really no reason to have to use the clamp. However, it does serve to keep
branches or other debris out of the space between the barrel and magazine
tube when creeping through the woods and as a sling mounting point. If your
extension tube has a tendency to work loose a set screw can be added to hold
the tube in place.
However, most fighting shotguns are fitted with a sling and thus need the
clamp. If your clamp is one of the one-piece units like the Remington
factory one or the Uncle Mike's one piece you might want to try this trick.
Adjust the upper part of the clamping strap to give a 32nd of an inch or so
of clearance (the thickness of a matchbook cover works fine) on either side
of the barrel when the bottom half is very tight on the magazine tube. You
may also want to carefully fit a piece of steel tubing over the clamp screw
and between the sides of the clamp to prevent over tightening. This
modification has worked very well on several shotguns I am familiar with.
Except possibly for prolonged military engagements, extension magazines do
not provide any real tactical advantage especially if one learns the "shoot
one - load one" drill. They are probably best avoided, but unfortunately
they are the "in" thing these days just like high capacity magazines in
semiautomatic pistols.
As far as "home defense use" is concerned, one recommended technique is to
have the shotgun stored with a singe round of 2>" - 3< Dram - 1< oz #6 shot
(preferably a loading using plated or hardened shot) in the magazine and the
hammer down on an empty chamber. Several rounds of buckshot are attached to
the shotgun in a butt cuff ammunition carrier. When needed, the action can
be racked when the shotgun is picked up chambering the load of #6 for
immediate short range indoor use and the magazine can then be loaded with
buckshot while waiting for the action to commence.

I think that we can now agree that the riotgun is not the proverbial "death
ray," nor is it a useless very short range only weapon. When properly
employed with ammunition of known performance it can provide its user with
the ability to control their environment in a 100+ yard radius with almost
complete certainty.
Remember, that while the data I have presented here is apparently typical,
there will be exceptions to the performances discussed. Test your own weapon
and ammunition to be sure.

Please email comments to Fr. Frog at frfrog@sprynet.com
--
No testing. No warnings. Simple enough?
Details of the policy at http://majordomo.squawk.com/No_Testing_Policy.html

[Alaskapopo]

Another article

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview
The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].
Testing Medium
Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.
A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.
Weapons Used
CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.
Glock M22, cal .40S&W.
Remington 870, 12 ga.
Ammunition Used
Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.
Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.
Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.
Procedure
All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.
Results
Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
† CCI Gold Dot.
Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.
The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.
When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".
Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.
Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS