View Full Version : Penalty for possession/use of oversized clip in CA?
As the title states, what's the penalty for "possession" of a 33 round magazine. For those who don't know, they only allow us 10 measly rounds here in California. :sad:
What about actually "using" it (in a real-life warranted situation of course)?
... Loser enters my home, I positively identify he's an intruder, he has a gun himself and reaches for it when he sees me... I unload on his ass with my 33-rounder. Of course, there'd be numerous variables involved. But basically, if I used my gun in a lawful manner but used an "illegal" sized clip. What kind of trouble would I be in? Would the penalty be the same between the 15 and 33 round clips?
Originally posted by emesdub
As the title states, what's the penalty for "possession" of a 33 round magazine. For those who don't know, they only allow us 10 measly rounds here in California. :sad:
What about actually "using" it (in a real-life warranted situation of course)?
... Loser enters my home, I positively identify he's an intruder, he has a gun himself and reaches for it when he sees me... I unload on his ass with my 33-rounder. Of course, there'd be numerous variables involved. But basically, if I used my gun in a lawful manner but used an "illegal" sized clip. What kind of trouble would I be in? Would the penalty be the same between the 15 and 33 round clips?
Did you own this 33 round magazine prior to the ban? If so then you are fine to own it now.
Is there any way to date a Glock mag? Maybe the follower since that seems to the parts that change from time to time. Of course people also update their own followers so that might not be a fool proof way to tell when a Glock mag was manufactured.
I am not from California, so take this with a big grain of salt, but I thought the California law banned the purchase or transfer of high cap mags. If you owned one prior to the ban it was grandfathered in as legal. If that is the case, then the use would be legal, so long as the ownership was. Beyond that, I don't know, and I may have that info mixed up with another state.
Thank God I live in Texas!
Oops, CDurand beat me to it. At least it looks like I had my info right!
Okay, what if I wasn't "grandfathered" in?
Not from CA either (well, not since '82 anyway :)), but my hunch is it's an overall crap shoot on how much the law is willing to side with you on an all-bets-are-off basis should a true defense scenario occur. I'm also going to come clean and say it sounds like this question is being driven by posessing something you aren't legally supposed to (especially since you're telling us - theoretically - it's not grandfathered in), but no need to confirm or deny to us here on your part.
Bottom line: yeah, I hate mag restrictions and glad I don't have them in WA, but being "limited" to 10 rounds really isn't such a limitation if you own several mags, use quality defensive ammo and engage in frequent an effective practice.
Originally posted by emesdub
Okay, what if I wasn't "grandfathered" in?
Then you cannot legally own it, let alone use it.
fiveflat
04-23-2007, 13:42
Originally posted by wrkerr
Then you cannot legally own it, let alone use it.
This is true. However DOJ has to prove that you didn't have it prior to the ban.
harleyfx69
04-23-2007, 13:53
my 2 cents ..
you wont really need more than 10 rounds for HD ..
33 is getting into *mall ninja* territory ..
have a couple spare 10 round magazines lined up .. since you said 33 im gonna guess that its a 9mm .. get yourself some good defensive hollow point rounds .. maybe SXT"s or ranger T's .. or something along those lines .. and youll be set ... i wouldnt risk that extra thing to put into a prosecutors mind that could turn a good shoot into something else ..
something else to consider is having a shotgun or other defensive long arm as your primary and then your handgun as a secondary / backup / bedside to get to longarm piece ..
IMO .. dont use the 33rd .. *theoretically* stick it in a box in the corner of an attic in your theoretical house ..
overall any restrictions are bad .. but still most people in non restricted states dont even use those HIGH cap magazines in their handguns .. now a 30 rounder in a ar or ak is a different matter ..
thorn137
04-23-2007, 14:31
It's not "illegal".
It's illegal. If you dont like the CA law, get it changed or move to a less socialist state.
And pls do your fellow gun owners a favor: dont use your illegal magazine when you shoot and kill an intruder. A legal-sized magazine is going to do the job just fine.
thorn
ipscshooter
04-23-2007, 15:00
Originally posted by emesdub
For those who don't know, they only allow us 10 measly rounds here in California. :sad:
... Loser enters my home, ... I unload on his ass with my 33-rounder.
10 is more than enough, if you can hit your target. What about all those rounds you missed with as you are "unloading on his ass", that went sailing through walls into your loved ones?
SweetG21
04-23-2007, 17:55
Just out of curiostity, sticking to the original question. What would the penalty be? anyone know?
According to the DOJ website up to a year in jail for possession
Originally posted by harleyfx69
my 2 cents ..
you wont really need more than 10 rounds for HD ..
33 is getting into *mall ninja* territory ..
My AK is for HD and it has 30 rounds per magazine. I even have a 75 rounder if I really wanted...
DanMartin
04-24-2007, 08:20
Bummer.
hokieglock
04-24-2007, 13:27
a couple of ten round mags should be sufficent. if you feel undergunned with this or live in an area with some MS-13 homies keep mr 12 gauge close by. use the handgun to get at the shotty. btw, put those "illegal" mags in a shoe box up in the attic for when kkommiefornia becomes free again.
I believe this would be a felony... lose your gun rights forever.
If you've lived in CA since before '00 and don't do anything stupid like admit that you bought a magazine after the cutoff, or go out of state and buy one that couldn't possibly have been in CA before the cutoff, or buy one with a credit card, you'll be OK... there's no way for them to prove you violated the law.
This sort of thing isn't worth messing with. Most people who lived here before the ban bought all sorts of magazines for guns they might not even have owned at the time. We can dip into our stash of legally owned magazines. If standard capacity magazines are important to you, I'd suggest moving, 'cause there's next to no chance they'll ever be legalized here again.
Would they be nice for the range or out plinking with your friend's? yes. Do they look "cool" ya. If you get caught it is a felony, you will loose your right to legally own a firearm in CA. So bottom line is, unless you owned it pre ban and can prove it; loose it. Like already said, buy more 10 round mags. I have 12 now. 2 are used full time for home defense rounds. and the other 10 are for the range.
fiveflat
04-25-2007, 20:03
Well, I recently bought a G27. I need the extended mag (which allows it to hold 11 rounds) so my pinky finger can have a place to hang out.
I happen to have one and it's not illegal to own it. It's only illegal to purchase it after the ban date. Like I said - they have to prove that you bought it after the ban date. You don't have to prove that you bought prior to it.
Originally posted by emesdub
As the title states, what's the penalty for "possession" of a 33 round magazine. For those who don't know, they only allow us 10 measly rounds here in California. :sad:
What about actually "using" it (in a real-life warranted situation of course)?
... Loser enters my home, I positively identify he's an intruder, he has a gun himself and reaches for it when he sees me... I unload on his ass with my 33-rounder. Of course, there'd be numerous variables involved. But basically, if I used my gun in a lawful manner but used an "illegal" sized clip. What kind of trouble would I be in? Would the penalty be the same between the 15 and 33 round clips? I'm not aware that semi-automatic pistols use clips. Especially 33 round clips. If I needed that many rounds in one magazine, I think I'd spend more time at the range.
Maybe this might be a good alternative:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/big_gun-1.jpg
Not sure if it's legal in California though.
fiveflat
04-26-2007, 19:18
If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.
(PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29))
10mmAuto
05-15-2007, 10:32
Read CA penal code section 12020 in it's entirety. It lists all kinds of evil bad weapons.
Like:
Assault metal knuckles
Assault blow guns
Assault black jacks
Assault saps
Assault nunchakus
Assault throwing stars
Assault cane swords
Assault lipstik knives
..and finally, those damn dreaded HI-CAP "ASSAULT" MAGAZINES!!!!
I :hearts: CA.
Couple of things.
A) If you own high caps and are wondering how DOJ could catch you...
#1 - You better be over the age of 21 as of 1/1/2000. Otherwise you will have to explain why you bought high cap mags for a specific weapon without actually owning said weapon.
#2 - CA DOJ does hold a database of purchased weapons here in this state. If you have never bought a firearm in this state prior to 1/1/2000, then you will probably need to explain yourself to the DOJ. (out of state, etc...)
True, it is the burden of the state to prove you did NOT have them prior to the law, but people have been convicted of much larger crimes with much less data.
What should you do with those 33 round mags? Put them in a safe and only take them out when you are going somewhere other than this state.
Burgler scenario:
(This comes from my CCW training classes)
In California, if someone breaks into your home and you actively persue and shoot this person, AND they end up to be unarmed, you better get a really GOOD lawyer.
IF someone breaks into your home and you barricade(read, close & lock door) yourself and your family in your bedroom, call 911, YELL LOUDLY THAT YOU ARE ARMED AND YOU WILL PROTECT YOURSELF (keep the phone line open with 911), AND the intruder proceeds to enter the bedroom AFTER you have VOCALLY TOLD them that you are ARMED and you will SHOOT them if they enter. You are in the right and will not be subject to any lawsuits.
Cliff notes:
BAD WAY -
A) You hear a noise
B) You investigate
C) You shoot the intruder
D) They are unarmed
E) You get sued bigtime
GOOD WAY -
A) You hear a noise and you are sure someone is in the house
B) You gather your family in your bedroom and call 911
C) You LOUDLY tell the intruder to leave, you called 911 and you are armed and will protect your family
D) The intruder breaks through your bedroom door
E) You shoot intruder dead
F) You are a hero! GOOD JOB!!!
Originally posted by M4inCA
In California, if someone breaks into your home and you actively persue and shoot this person, AND they end up to be unarmed, you better get a really GOOD lawyer.
IF someone breaks into your home and you barricade(read, close & lock door) yourself and your family in your bedroom, call 911, YELL LOUDLY THAT YOU ARE ARMED AND YOU WILL PROTECT YOURSELF (keep the phone line open with 911), AND the intruder proceeds to enter the bedroom AFTER you have VOCALLY TOLD them that you are ARMED and you will SHOOT them if they enter. You are in the right and will not be subject to any lawsuits.
Hate to rain on your parade but you can get sued in both scenarios. What if you are alone? Who can prove you actually yelled, LOUDLY, the lawyer proof warnning? Your best advice, which should apply to all scenarios, is get a really good lawyer.
It is amazing what can happen in court. Or even before you get to court. I had a girlfriend whose parents had to settle with a burgler because their dog bit him in their backyard. This was in the middle of the night. He said he thought he was at his buddy's house. He had some screwdrivers and a flashlight in his backpack which he never had to explain. Their homeowner's insurance said it would be cheaper to settle than to fight him in court. He got medical plus missed wages. Not a huge payday but still.. crime paid in that case.
10mmAuto
06-05-2007, 21:26
Originally posted by M4inCA
Couple of things.
Burgler scenario:
(This comes from my CCW training classes)
In California, if someone breaks into your home and you actively persue and shoot this person, AND they end up to be unarmed, you better get a really GOOD lawyer.
IF someone breaks into your home and you barricade(read, close & lock door) yourself and your family in your bedroom, call 911, YELL LOUDLY THAT YOU ARE ARMED AND YOU WILL PROTECT YOURSELF (keep the phone line open with 911), AND the intruder proceeds to enter the bedroom AFTER you have VOCALLY TOLD them that you are ARMED and you will SHOOT them if they enter. You are in the right and will not be subject to any lawsuits.
Cliff notes:
BAD WAY -
A) You hear a noise
B) You investigate
C) You shoot the intruder
D) They are unarmed
E) You get sued bigtime
GOOD WAY -
A) You hear a noise and you are sure someone is in the house
B) You gather your family in your bedroom and call 911
C) You LOUDLY tell the intruder to leave, you called 911 and you are armed and will protect your family
D) The intruder breaks through your bedroom door
E) You shoot intruder dead
F) You are a hero! GOOD JOB!!!
I love CCW class instructors.....:rofl:
First off, under your scenarios, you are assuming everything goes right and you have time to 1) gather your familiy from all over the house 2) grab a phone 3)are able to "barricade" yourself in the bedroom, 4) yell at the intruder.....blah blah blah....
First off, nothing you mentioned is listed in the CA penal code. I'd love to talk to your CCW instructor and ask him where did he find that nice 4-step process to "protect" oneself in one's home and by following that process, allows one to THEN us a gun in self defense.
Look, When the cops come to your house, they are going to be looking at two major things. 1) Who got shot and 2) Who did the shooting?
Well, when they see Mr. Burglar inside your living room with a bullet in his head, they are going to ask the shooter (you and Me), "what happenened?"
Now, without going through a big list of things, the most important thing you better remember is that you were deathly afraid for your life and the life of your family.
How were you afraid? Some possible answers (pick ones that apply): "It was dark; the house was locked up for the night; I heard glass breaking; the front door was kicked in so hard I thought my house exploded!; my kid started screaming in her bedroom; I grabbed my gun knowing that nobody was suppossed to be downstairs; my wife was right next to me; I told the guy to freeze; and I thought he had a weapon; or I thought he was going to kill me; or he told me "f-you, I'm gonna kill you!"; or "F-you, where's the money!"; or he just came at me even when I pointed my gun at him to freeze, I thought he was going to take it away from me and kill me; or I heard voices outside the window which told me there were more of them!; or whatever.....
It's what your state of mind is and if you can articulate the fact that you were in fear for your life and the lives of your family. Those are the reasons why the suspect FORCED YOU to defend yourself and you had no other choice but to shoot him to stop the threat!
Get it? It's kinda hard to go into real detail on a computer keyboard here.
If you just say, I shot the guy just, "because", well then, that's not good enough.
I'm talking from experience from people that I responded to that actually used a gun in their HOMES for self defense. If we see Mr. Fecal Matter (burglar/killer) on your living room floor in his own pool of blood and Mr. Honest Citizen (you) who used a gun in self defense in your own home, we're going to get a basic idea of "what really went on" inside your home.
There is no law that says once a guy forcefully busts into your house (or even sneaks in) that once you stand your ground, you do not have to retreat any further. Your home is your castle. If you detain him by pointing your gun at him telling him to get on the ground and he comes toward you, you have a green light. I don't know about you, but If I pointed a gun at someone and he came at me anyway, I'd be scared for my life. Obviously he's not afaid of me pointing a gun at him and now he's coming to take my gun and shove it up my behind.
Just articulate what you would do and by all means, have a plan in your head right now. What would you do if someone busted into your home right now?
Originally posted by cdurand
Who can prove you actually yelled, LOUDLY, the lawyer proof warnning? Your best advice, which should apply to all scenarios, is get a really good lawyer.
The 911 tapes. Leave the phone line open. And of course, get a good lawyer.
Their homeowner's insurance said it would be cheaper to settle than to fight him in court.[/QUOTE]
This is the problem with our justice system. Clearly the guy was not at his buddy's house nor did he have any intention of fixing the broken lawnmower at 3am. Didn't the guy hear the dog barking at him before he got bit? Probably, right after he realized he was screwed.
Originally posted by 10mmAuto
I love CCW class instructors.....:rofl:
First off, under your scenarios, you are assuming everything goes right and you have time to 1) gather your familiy from all over the house 2) grab a phone 3)are able to "barricade" yourself in the bedroom, 4) yell at the intruder.....blah blah blah....
First off, nothing you mentioned is listed in the CA penal code. I'd love to talk to your CCW instructor and ask him where did he find that nice 4-step process to "protect" oneself in one's home and by following that process, allows one to THEN us a gun in self defense.
Look, When the cops come to your house, they are going to be looking at two major things. 1) Who got shot and 2) Who did the shooting?
Well, when they see Mr. Burglar inside your living room with a bullet in his head, they are going to ask the shooter (you and Me), "what happenened?"
This is why our instructor mentioned NOT to go investigate in the living room. If there is a dead BG in my hallway, it's pretty clear why they are dead. I feared for my and my family's life.
Now, without going through a big list of things, the most important thing you better remember is that you were deathly afraid for your life and the life of your family.
How were you afraid? Some possible answers (pick ones that apply): "It was dark; the house was locked up for the night; I heard glass breaking; the front door was kicked in so hard I thought my house exploded!; my kid started screaming in her bedroom; I grabbed my gun knowing that nobody was suppossed to be downstairs; my wife was right next to me; I told the guy to freeze; and I thought he had a weapon; or I thought he was going to kill me; or he told me "f-you, I'm gonna kill you!"; or "F-you, where's the money!"; or he just came at me even when I pointed my gun at him to freeze, I thought he was going to take it away from me and kill me; or I heard voices outside the window which told me there were more of them!; or whatever.....
It's what your state of mind is and if you can articulate the fact that you were in fear for your life and the lives of your family. Those are the reasons why the suspect FORCED YOU to defend yourself and you had no other choice but to shoot him to stop the threat!
Get it? It's kinda hard to go into real detail on a computer keyboard here.
If you just say, I shot the guy just, "because", well then, that's not good enough.
I'm talking from experience from people that I responded to that actually used a gun in their HOMES for self defense. If we see Mr. Fecal Matter (burglar/killer) on your living room floor in his own pool of blood and Mr. Honest Citizen (you) who used a gun in self defense in your own home, we're going to get a basic idea of "what really went on" inside your home.
There is no law that says once a guy forcefully busts into your house (or even sneaks in) that once you stand your ground, you do not have to retreat any further. Your home is your castle. If you detain him by pointing your gun at him telling him to get on the ground and he comes toward you, you have a green light. I don't know about you, but If I pointed a gun at someone and he came at me anyway, I'd be scared for my life. Obviously he's not afaid of me pointing a gun at him and now he's coming to take my gun and shove it up my behind.
Just articulate what you would do and by all means, have a plan in your head right now. What would you do if someone busted into your home right now?
The case he brought up to us that happened here in SD some years ago was this:
Guy opens door to house at 2am, goes into kitchen and fumbles through refrigerator. Homeowner hears a noise, grabs his 357 and goes downstairs to have a look. They do NOT call 911. As the homeowner starts to enter the hallway, the intruder startles the homeowner and the intruder is shot 2x in the chest.
Who was the intruder? The next door neighboor's kid. Turns out the guy had a BAC of 0.18 post mortum.
I would not want to be that homeowner and it makes total sense.
Oh yea. My CCW instructor - www.CCWUSA.com Bill Desy
10mmAuto
06-07-2007, 13:50
Originally posted by M4inCA
...Who was the intruder? The next door neighboor's kid. Turns out the guy had a BAC of 0.18 post mortum.
I would not want to be that homeowner and it makes total sense.
Well, first off, every "intruder" or killer is known by "somebody." Jeffrey Dhalmer was known by all of his neighbors growing up as a "good quiet kid" too.
Second point. Are you basing all of your "shoot/don't shoot" scenarious now on that one particular incident? Are you saying now that chances are that home invaders are probably going to be just a "hungry drunk neighbor kids" instead of a violent possible killer entering your home????
Third point/question. Did that "drunk kid" break into the home or did he just casually walk in through the front unlocked door? I don't care if someone is drunk, lives next door, and is a boyscout. It the intruder forced his way in no matter what his intentions really are (getting a sandwhich in my fridge or wanting to kill me), I'm going to investigate with a firearm. If I'm forced to shoot him, so be it. It was because I thought the "boy scout" was trying to kill me.
Fourth point. Obviously one must have some self control. If I go down stairs and find a guy rumaging through my fridge (which getting struck by lightning is more probable), than if given the chance, I will DETAIN him at gunpoint. Obviously if I don't have to shoot, I'm not going to.
You gotta use your head. Actually I guess I don't have a problem with your idea either. If you're upstairs with your family, all safe and with a gun, I see no reason to go down and investigate either. It's okay to call 911 and let them come and clear your downstairs for you. But, have a plan if the suspect(s) decides to come up your stairs to "look for more refridgerators."
:rofl:
Fifth point. If I were to hear a door/window being forced open and I saw the intruder wearing a ski mask, gloves and armed with a crow bar, I'm not waiting to call 911. I'm killing the SOB. (Translation to police: "I was afraid he was going to kill me and when I saw that big assault-crowbar, I feared that I had no choice since I was backed into a corner of my upstairs hallway. I had no choice but to shoot the urban terrorist to stop his advanceing threat ....officer......)
Originally posted by M4inCA
...Oh yea. My CCW instructor - www.CCWUSA.com Bill Desy
Who???? Neeeeeeeever heard of 'em.
This is not an attack on you M4inCA so don't take it as such. What turns me off about Desy's web site is the fact he's got a mock badge on his home page that says "CCW permit" on it. WEEEEAk!!!!!!!!!!! Dumb!!!! Wannna-be!!!!!!!! written all over that web site.
He's not even an employee of an CA based agency. He just teaches some range shooting for CA Bureau of Security.....Big deal. He's probably a great shot, but that's all I'd give him.
Identify your target before shooting.
Carry a flashlight.
10mmAuto
06-07-2007, 14:09
Originally posted by Quiet
Identify your target before shooting.
Carry a flashlight.
BINGO.....ABSOLUTELY........DITTO........!!!!
There. That was easy.
:wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:
So far I agree with most already stated. I would add, that finding (you really should do a better job of remembering where you put your magazines) some standard Capacity, 17 or whatever your model calls for, would be the most sensible option. The prosicuter will probably stain his pants when he finds out you used a magazine with triple the silly legal (10 round) magazine. However, if you had the proper magazine that glock intended the pistol to use it should count a little less against you.
I don't live in CA, but I do keep a G22 close by at night. I have a surefire x200 attached to it, so when I grab my gun the light is right there.
DESERTDUDE
06-20-2007, 22:47
The penalty is as follows:
You have survived your confrontation, regardless of Mag size, BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO CONTINUE TO LIVE IN KALIFORNIA.:rofl:
Originally posted by M4inCA
The case he brought up to us that happened here in SD some years ago was this:
Guy opens door to house at 2am, goes into kitchen and fumbles through refrigerator. Homeowner hears a noise, grabs his 357 and goes downstairs to have a look. They do NOT call 911. As the homeowner starts to enter the hallway, the intruder startles the homeowner and the intruder is shot 2x in the chest.
Who was the intruder? The next door neighboor's kid. Turns out the guy had a BAC of 0.18 post mortum.
I would not want to be that homeowner and it makes total sense.
Oh yea. My CCW instructor - www.CCWUSA.com Bill Desy
DO you remember when that case happened? BTW, where in San Diego are you?
Hate to say this, but if you are using a 33 rd. handgun mag for home defense, you must not be very proficient with your weapon system. Or, you are a gang banger / drug dealer that thinks the 33rd is cool. I have function tested several, and found them unreliable. Factor mags of Standard Capacity, or "Calif Reduced Capacity" mags should normally be fine for home defense purposes.
If you need more than 10 in a home defense situation, you should be using a shotgun instead.....
As far as shooting unarmed burglars, I think alot would depend on where you are in Ca. In Bakersfield the Cops would most likely pat you on the back and have a beer with you afterwards....
Ender
Originally posted by Ender99
If you need more than 10 in a home defense situation, you should be using a shotgun instead.....
But my shotgun only holds 8+1. :upeyes:
huntthehunter
07-20-2007, 09:52
how about this?
G17 (or whatever holds 10) w/ 10rd mag in right hand
G17 (or whatever holds 10) w/ 10rd mag in left hand
DanMartin
07-21-2007, 11:23
Keep in mind, if 10 rounds of 9mm isn't enough, perhaps 10 rounds of 10mm will be.
Peak_Oil
08-16-2007, 00:26
Originally posted by harleyfx69
my 2 cents ..
you wont really need more than 10 rounds for HD ..
33 is getting into *mall ninja* territory ..
FerFAL would beg to differ. Hicap mags in a handgun have been a lifesaver for the law-abiding Argentinian for some time.
If I were the OP, I believe I would go ahead and use the 33-rounder and stock enough properly seasoned and circumcised mags that I could pass the sniff test either way.
Be prepared.
proraptor
08-16-2007, 11:25
They have to prove that you bought the hicap magazines after the ban which is damn near impossible....BTW: You dont have to be 21 to buy magazines as there is no age limit on buying them....
Also if you "Find" hicap magazines then you are in the clear also....A good place to ask about this is www.calguns.net
What if I move to California from a state that doesn't ban high capacity magazines? Do I have to throw them out?
Originally posted by nmg
What if I move to California from a state that doesn't ban high capacity magazines? Do I have to throw them out?
You can not legally bring them with you.
You can either store them in another state or sell them before you get to CA.
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