best self defence caliber [Archive]

glock20c10mm

04-23-2007, 17:56

Originally posted by tom1980

I want to buy a glock, but I have to select one caliber:
9mm, 40 S&W, .357SIG or .45ACP

Does anybody know which handgun caliber would be best to penetrate human bones or the skull?

40 S&W, 180gr bullets:thumbsup:

Here's why - http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

I'm a big fan of extreme penetration, at least by most peoples standards. My second personal most important aspect is to go with the largest caliber possible in a firearm that "I" can conceal relatively easily. I want the bullet to make the biggest wound channel possible within the other parameters that are important to me.

That's why 9mm and 50AE are out for me. Not that you shouldn't carry either one of them if it reasonably suits you for your own personal needs/wants.

For me, 45auto wouldn't be too bad with 230gr bullets, it just seems to me that most 40S&W 180gr loads outperform (usually about 100fps+) 45auto 230gr loads. Especially out of shorter CCW type firearms.

Also, I'm not a big fan of +P loads, let alone +P+. The bullet manufacturers (mostly) never designed those bullets for those velocities. In general, most of the premium bullets out there were and are designed to work optimally at STANDARD velocities. You start throwing those bullets 100-200fps faster and now the bullet petals fold so far back that the hollow point design becomes less useful. This is why I'm also not a fan of the 357SIG. The ammo manufacturers (mostly) are loading their standard 9mm bullets in them, and IMHO, you're getting crappy performance. The bullet petals are just folding too far over from those 357SIG velocities. And now you're back to "small" wound channels.

One thing to keep in mind, I live in a very rural environment compared to alot of others out there. So "overpenetration" is of little importance to me. If your life takes you through highly populated places/areas on an regular basis, maybe a less penetrating round would suit you. Then, IMHO, the 45 auto could be your best choice.

To me, a 9mm just doesn't punch big enough holes compared to the other common self defense rounds available. Unless recoil actually bothers you that much, I'ld steer clear of it, and for no other reasons.

No matter what you choose in the end, you obviously have to practice for accuracy because it doesn't matter what round you choose if you can't hit the broad side of a barn anyways. Some people argue that 9mm is the best because the practice ammo is cheapest and therefore you can "afford" to become the best shot with it. IMHO that's one of the biggest jokes I've ever heard.:rofl: You can pick up 40S&W practice ammo pretty darned reasonalbe too. If you can't afford the cost difference between the two, you'ld probably be better off with 22LR as your defensive round. Enough said!

And make sure you read the info inside that url I posted for you. It will help you make YOUR OWN decision!

Well, Good Luck, and hopefully you never have to shoot someone anyways. :wavey:

Danny Reid

04-23-2007, 18:19

Originally posted by Halojumper
Only if you value economy over effectiveness I am really tempted here...but I am gonna just let it go

Night, guys...

MD2010

04-23-2007, 18:39

:popcorn:

:deadhorse:

MOHAA Player

04-23-2007, 18:52

The 10mm is the only caliber that can kill a man:rofl:

Rugby

04-23-2007, 19:11

I'm a big fan of extreme penetration, at least by most peoples standards. My second personal most important aspect is to go with the largest caliber possible in a firearm that "I" can conceal relatively easily. I want the bullet to make the biggest wound channel possible within the other parameters that are important to me

Sounds like you need to buy a G29.

To me, a 9mm just doesn't punch big enough holes compared to the other common self defense rounds available. Unless recoil actually bothers you that much, I'ld steer clear of it, and for no other reasons.

Yea, and that .40 is SOOOOO much bigger!

Also, I'm not a big fan of +P loads, let alone +P+. The bullet manufacturers (mostly) never designed those bullets for those velocities.

Yea, the "bullet manufacturers" just keep pressing in bullets that aren't designed for that speed!:rofl: :rofl: I suppose you're not a big fan of going to the gym for added muscle. I suppose you're not a fan of modifying your car's engine performance. I suppose you're not a big fan of higher education. Are you a bigger fan of propeller planes or jets?

In general, most of the premium bullets out there were and are designed to work optimally at STANDARD velocities. :rofl: :rofl:

You start throwing those bullets 100-200fps faster and now the bullet petals fold so far back that the hollow point design becomes less useful. This is why I'm also not a fan of the 357SIG. The ammo manufacturers (mostly) are loading their standard 9mm bullets in them, and IMHO, you're getting crappy performance. The bullet petals are just folding too far over from those 357SIG velocities. And now you're back to "small" wound channels.

You should have proof-read and deleted this paragraph before you posted it! :rofl: :rofl:

Thanks for the laugh!:rofl: :rofl: :animlol: :animlol: :laughabove: :laughabove: :supergrin: :supergrin: :upeyes: :upeyes: :tongueout: :tongueout: :rofl:

NickZac

04-23-2007, 19:50

Originally posted by tom1980
I am looking for a new self-defence handgun.

I want to buy a glock, but I have to select one caliber:
9mm, 40 S&W, .357SIG or .45ACP

Does anybody know which handgun caliber would be best to penetrate human bones or the skull?

Through carefully considered debate, a consensus has been reached that the best caliber is the one you shoot with effectively. If you cannot hit the target, it doesn't matter whether you have bazooka or a nerf gun, as in the end they will both do the same. The best caliber you will shoot effectively will be the one you practice with. Furthermore, you want to practice with the ammo (or at least the same weight ammo) that you should shoot into a person in a real life scenario. If cost is a concern, the 9mm will hands down be the best cartridge given excellent ballistic performance and low costs to shoot. Additionally 9mm is available worldwide. If you live in a rural area, 9mm or 45 would make more sense over 10mm or 357SIG given obvious availability.

Additionally, if you are getting a gun for home defense and do not plan to shoot at least often enough to get familiar with how a semi automatic works and learning how to hold it to prevent a stovepipe jam, then a revolver shooting the .38SPL+p will be the obvious choice as a revolver does not rely on inertia to function the gun.

In closing remarks, I personally have been carrying a .40, but this is because I was asked to over a 9mm and the G23 happened to fit all of my gear that my G19 does (thank God for Glock consistency!). Additionally, the choice to buy a 45 Auto will come at the expense or luxury of a larger grip size. All in all, of the calibers you mentioned, 357SIG seems to have the most penetration although I can't jump on the $25 dollars a box for practice rounds bandwagon when ballistic performances are marginally (at best) better than the 40 caliber. Overall, the 9mm is by far the most universal round for an autoloader.

PBR Sailor

04-23-2007, 20:01

Originally posted by tom1980
I am looking for a new self-defence handgun.

I want to buy a glock, but I have to select one caliber:
9mm, 40 S&W, .357SIG or .45ACP

Does anybody know which handgun caliber would be best to penetrate human bones or the skull?

The caliber with which you can score multiple headshots in the shortest amount of time. Other than that, it's personal preference.

:thumbsup:

TattooedGlock

04-24-2007, 14:49

The caliber you can shoot constanct accurate double taps to the chest with.

.45 acp is the most proven man stopping round around.

SDGlock23

04-24-2007, 15:25

Pick one that fits you best and fits your budget. I personally find the .40/357 SIG to offer the best combination of power and capacity: great firepower.

schublade

04-25-2007, 18:27

All of the above are great calibers. Anything larger than 9mm and you risk seeing some sort of problem over the life of the gun. A 9mm Glock will not only feed anything, it will wear out the barrel after 30000+ rounds before anything else wears out or breaks.

J.P.

04-25-2007, 18:52

Originally posted by schublade
A 9mm Glock will not only feed anything, it will wear out the barrel after 30000+ rounds before anything else wears out or breaks.

Are you high?
(or making fun of Pat?)

Alaskapopo

04-25-2007, 19:48

In Glock 9mm is the best choice.
pat

Halojumper

04-25-2007, 19:50

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
In Glock 9mm is the best choice.
pat

Oh boy, here we go again... :upeyes:

Alaskapopo

04-25-2007, 19:57

Originally posted by Halojumper
Oh boy, here we go again... :upeyes:
I have every right to share my views on this board. Do you have anything to contribute other than this flame? Didn't think so!
Pat

Halojumper

04-25-2007, 20:01

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I have every right to share my views on this board. Do you have anything to contribute other than this flame? Didn't think so!
Pat

No, only to point out that Glocks have regularly shown themselves to be reliable and durable in all of their calibers. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even if it doesn't agree with any reality. And, if you feel my comment is a flame, you must be extra sensitive today. I hope nobody throws any real flames your way.

Alaskapopo

04-25-2007, 20:06

Originally posted by Halojumper
No, only to point out that Glocks have regularly shown themselves to be reliable and durable in all of their calibers. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even if it doesn't agree with any reality. And, if you feel my comment is a flame, you must be extra sensitive today. I hope nobody throws any real flames your way.

Actually Glocks in 40,10mm, 45 and 357 sig have been shown to have a dramatically shorter service life. 40's in particular have a problem with KB's.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic3.gif
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic2.gif
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic1.gif

And like anyone I get sick of being flamed simply for sharing an opinion. If you don't agree say so but don't post some juvenile snip aimed at nothing more than causing irritation.
Pat

Halojumper

04-25-2007, 20:22

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually Glocks in 40,10mm, 45 and 357 sig have been shown to have a dramatically shorter service life. 40's in particular have a problem with KB's.

No, you've posted a few extreme examples where some 9mm Glocks had a huge amount of rounds through them and some extreme, though not typical examples of some 40's having problems. As for your photos, it has already been determined that some of the early Hydrashocks had some problems that have since been fixed. Have you heard of any recent examples of people experiencing KB's with 40's using qualify factory ammunition?

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
And like anyone I get sick of being flamed simply for sharing an opinion. If you don't agree say so but don't post some juvenile snip aimed at nothing more than causing irritation.
Pat

If you're so sensitive about it why do you keep coming back? You should know that if you continue posting ridiculous statements, that people are going to call you on it. If you want to debate it, you should get some thicker skin and stick in there and debate it instead of always accusing people who don't agree with you of picking on you.

Alaskapopo

04-25-2007, 20:30

Originally posted by Halojumper

If you're so sensitive about it why do you keep coming back? You should know that if you continue posting ridiculous statements, that people are going to call you on it. If you want to debate it, you should get some thicker skin and stick in there and debate it instead of always accusing people who don't agree with you of picking on you.

Halo I have been here longer than you have (5 years longer) and I plan on staying around. I also expect others to follow the rules. If people can't follow the rules here on Glock talk like treating each other with respect and no personal attacks. Then they should leave.

As for posting ridiculous statements, I have never done that. Simply posted facts you don't care to accept.
Pat

Halojumper

04-25-2007, 20:32

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Halo I have been here longer than you have and I plan on staying around. I also expect others to follow the rules. If you can't do that you should leave.

I wasn't suggesting throwing you out, just wondering why you keep coming back since you have indicated, on many occasions how much it bothers you when people disagree with you or call you on your lame arguments. What rules do you feel were broken?

Alaskapopo

04-25-2007, 20:38

Originally posted by Halojumper
I wasn't suggesting throwing you out, just wondering why you keep coming back since you have indicated, on many occasions how much it bothers you when people disagree with you or call you on your lame arguments. What rules do you feel were broken?

I don't are if people disagree with me in a mature fashion. But that not what you are doing. You are using terms that a junior high kid would use in an argument like LAME. You insult the messenger and not the message. You have no counter claims in fact you only post generalizations of your opinion like Glock in all service calibers are doing fine despite evidence to the contrary. Such as the Indiana State Police's issues with Glock 22's to the point they traded them all back in for Glock 17's. Or the fact that thousands of Glock 40's across this country had to go back to Glock due to defective slide rails. Hmm those darn facts.
Pat

Halojumper

04-25-2007, 20:52

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I don't are if people disagree with me in a mature fashion.

Lol, Pat you're on Glocktalk. Maybe Shakespearetalk would be more your speed.

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
But that not what you are doing. You are using terms that a junior high kid would use in an argument like LAME.

Tell me which term you prefer, as a synonym to that and I will ensure that I used it whenver I point out any of your lame arguments in the future.

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You insult the messenger and not the message.

Duh, go back and look at any interaction I have had with you. I have only commented on the message. What have I actually said you, nothing, only about your claims and your statement.

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You have no counter claims in fact you only post generalizations of your opinion

Yeah, you wouldn't want anybody posting an opinion here, however ridiculous, would you.

Alaskapopo

04-25-2007, 21:00

Originally posted by Halojumper
Lol, Pat you're on Glocktalk. Maybe Shakespearetalk would be more your speed.

Tell me which term you prefer, as a synonym to that and I will ensure that I used it whenver I point out any of your lame arguments in the future.

Duh, go back and look at any interaction I have had with you. I have only commented on the message. What have I actually said you, nothing, only about your claims and your statement.

Yeah, you wouldn't want anybody posting an opinion here, however ridiculous, would you.

All I ask is you follow the rules here on Glocktalk not Shakespearetalk. Some of those rules indicate we should not flame each other and should treat each other with respect.

I have no problem with you posting your opinion. I do have a problem when you flame. Also the only thing that is ridiculous is the notion that all Glocks regardless of caliber are equally reliable and durable. Thats rubbish.
Pat

DonGlock26

04-25-2007, 21:07

Originally posted by tom1980

Does anybody know which handgun caliber would be best to penetrate human bones or the skull?

.357Sig-IMHO

GroovedG19

04-25-2007, 21:18

If you're already settled on a Glock, then I'd suggest either 9x19mm or .45ACP.9mm has an even greater edge with its high capacity and easy controllability.Glocks were originally designed in 9x19 and they really shine in this caliber.

PBR Sailor

04-26-2007, 04:34

I own a Glock 22 and I have fired thousands of rounds through it. I have not had any issues with reliability.

If I were buying a new pistol today, I would purchase a Glock 19. I formed this opinion from practical experience. 9mm ammunition is cheaper, more readily available and the recoil is less than that of the .40 S&W. The 9mm cartridge will get the job done if I do my job.

There is nothing wrong with the Glock 19. I happen to be a better shot with a Glock 19 than my Beretta 92FS and my Smith and Wesson pistols, so that's why I favor the Glock pistols. Other folks like other brands of pistols; it's the Ford versus Chevy thing in my opinion. Any quality pistol should be suitable if proper maintenance is performed. Any caliber from 9mm on up should get the job done when properly applied to a tactical problem.

:thumbsup:

Clem Eastwood

04-26-2007, 09:02

the best one is the one you shoot best. i would not let caliber be the deciding factor if you havent chosen a platform yet. i would go shoot a bunch of stuff, all the calibers in each one. then choose.

ejsandstrom

04-26-2007, 19:28

Any thing less than .45 is for preteen girls and men with girl hands. :steamed:

OK now that is out of my system. Like a bunch of people have said, what ever you have practice. If you get shot in the forearm with a .500S&W or center mass or CNS with a .22. What is going to kill you faster? I have G21 that I got after several very serious conversations with a guy that was a bounty hunter for several years and had the misfortune of having to use his weapon several times. He said that after his incidents that he felt safest with a .45 on his hip. FWIW

I also herd a "story" about when the U.S. Govt was looking for a new side arm caliber way back when. They had guys stand in a trench and then throw sandbags in towards them. The guys in the trench would shoot them. And the .45 Auto was the only caliber that would stop the forward momentum of the sand bag. If this is untrue please correct me. And I know that a sand bag is no where near a human type target but that is the story I heard.

JMBare

04-27-2007, 12:15

Originally posted by ejsandstrom
Any thing less than .45 is for preteen girls and men with girl hands. :steamed:

OK now that is out of my system. Like a bunch of people have said, what ever you have practice. If you get shot in the forearm with a .500S&W or center mass or CNS with a .22. What is going to kill you faster? I have G21 that I got after several very serious conversations with a guy that was a bounty hunter for several years and had the misfortune of having to use his weapon several times. He said that after his incidents that he felt safest with a .45 on his hip. FWIW

I also herd a "story" about when the U.S. Govt was looking for a new side arm caliber way back when. They had guys stand in a trench and then throw sandbags in towards them. The guys in the trench would shoot them. And the .45 Auto was the only caliber that would stop the forward momentum of the sand bag. If this is untrue please correct me. And I know that a sand bag is no where near a human type target but that is the story I heard.

In order for this to be true, your gun would have to recoil enough to accelerate that same sandbag backward to the same speed it was thrown towards the soldiers.

In other words, the force is felt is the same on either ends of the round, the projectile and the shell casing. In fact, the fealt energy should actually be greater at the pistol, because there is TOTAL energy trasfer into the shooters hand, where a bullet may be able to overpenetrate, carrying on some of its energy beyond the target. So I cannot imagine this being at all posible, even with a 12 gauge shotgun.

Secondly...

I think it is safe to say that the very unfortunate events which recently transpired at VT, has certainly proven the effectiveness of the 9mm.

IMHO, the bottom line all comes back to shot placement.

The only exception I can perceive, may be Combat, where heavy clothing and other gear may slow the bullet down prior to it striking its target, perhaps even enough to prevent it from actually penetrating at all, I personally would prefer a small round with high velocity like the .357 auto, over a big slow moving projectile, with more surface area to trap the energy like a .45.

Think about it like this. Would you rather be struck by a tractor trailer moving ten miles per hour(assuming you don't fall under it and get run over), or an 1/4 acale RC car moving 85 miles per hour(right in the chest)? I personally would rather bounce off of the tractor trailer. The truck may cause some big blunt force trauma, but the RC car may go straight through me, leaving a huge path of destruction along the way. That is a hell of alot of stuff for a surgeon to repair before I bleed out.

Funny true story: My brother and I were wondering through the woods one day and came accross a broken down abandoned car which had obviously been there for years. We decided to both shoot at it, from about 10 yards or so. My .357 ripped straight through every body panel it hit. His .45 did just about the same, with the exception of one round, which struck a subframe part and got caught.

Then we found a plastic front mud fender from a dirtbike which had been broken off and left behind. We set it up on it's side and shot at it, again from about 10 yards. My .357 ripped right through it again.. HOWEVER, the .45 actually did not.. The bullet bounced off of the fender and shot off into the sky. I actually heard it come down through the woods a second or so later, So, he shot at it a few more times, with the same results. The .45 was NOT ABLE To penetrate that peice of unbraced thermo plastic fender!!! From that day forward, I decided that I would NEVER bother with a .45 again.

Don't care if anyone believes me or not, but wanted to share this experience, so don't bother flaming me over it.

-JMB

Halojumper

04-27-2007, 16:14

Originally posted by JMBare
I think it is safe to say that the very unfortunate events which recently transpired at VT, has certainly proven the effectiveness of the 9mm.

With all due respect to the victims of VT, I must disagree with this statement. When we talk about effectiveness, in the context used here, we are talking about the ability to quickly end a fight. VT didn't show us anything about that. We don't know how long it took them to die or how effective it would have been against a serious, perhaps drugged up attacker. A .22 will kill you if you have enough time to bleed out.

MOHAA Player

04-27-2007, 17:44

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Actually Glocks in 40,10mm, 45 and 357 sig have been shown to have a dramatically shorter service life. 40's in particular have a problem with KB's.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic3.gif
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic2.gif
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic1.gif

And like anyone I get sick of being flamed simply for sharing an opinion. If you don't agree say so but don't post some juvenile snip aimed at nothing more than causing irritation.
Pat I remember you said that you had 3 or 4 40cal weapons blow up on you like grenades,sure hope your ok Pat.Them dam 40's are dangerous SOB's
MOHAA

MOHAA Player

04-27-2007, 17:52

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Or the fact that thousands of Glock 40's across this country had to go back to Glock due to defective slide rails. Hmm those darn facts.
Pat Can you provide proof Pat?

Alaskapopo

04-27-2007, 18:52

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Can you provide proof Pat?
Its common knowledge. Check some back threads on the subject. Glock admitted this problem. Do a little bit of research just on this site alone will give you all the PROOF you need.

Your statement is like asking me to show you proof that Glock exists.
Pat

MOHAA Player

04-27-2007, 19:44

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Its common knowledge. Check some back threads on the subject. Glock admitted this problem. Do a little bit of research just on this site alone will give you all the PROOF you need.

Your statement is like asking me to show you proof that Glock exists.
Pat Ok if you can't find proof,and not a GT members post that's cool;)Also if there was a rail problem there has been recalls on major products plenty of times,no design or product is perfect.There are plenty of agencies that are pleased with there 9mm,40cal,357sig,45gap,45acp weapons,and also there are those not happy with them.I have a old G22 that is sort of a beat around gun,its finish has pretty much worn off,and I lost the round count many range trips ago.I bought it the same year Glock first came out with the G22 and it still functions fine,and has all orignal springs.

I throw it in my tackle box when I go fishing and mostly throw it in my trucks glove box.I always carry a gun on my side but keep this old G22 around somewhere.The G22 is a fine weapon just as the G17/G31/G20/G21 are also.
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

04-27-2007, 22:43

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Ok if you can't find proof,and not a GT members post that's cool;)Also if there was a rail problem there has been recalls on major products plenty of times,no design or product is perfect.There are plenty of agencies that are pleased with there 9mm,40cal,357sig,45gap,45acp weapons,and also there are those not happy with them.I have a old G22 that is sort of a beat around gun,its finish has pretty much worn off,and I lost the round count many range trips ago.I bought it the same year Glock first came out with the G22 and it still functions fine,and has all orignal springs.

I throw it in my tackle box when I go fishing and mostly throw it in my trucks glove box.I always carry a gun on my side but keep this old G22 around somewhere.The G22 is a fine weapon just as the G17/G31/G20/G21 are also.
MOHAA

I did not say I did not have proof. I know that The State Troopers up here had to send all their Glock 22's back. I know Glock issued a recall. I just did not think you had been living under and rock. This is common knowledge. The fact that you were not aware of it speaks volumes about your knowledge level or rather lack of.
Pat

Aeroscoper

04-27-2007, 23:26

Get the most powerful round you can handle effectively from .38 spcl up to 10mm. For many, that's a 9mm, for others, that's a .45. There are some that carry larger/more potent calibers, yet recommend nothing but a 9mm to others, but the only thing that can tell you what you should carry is handling each and choosing for yourself. Again, .38 up to 10mm is typically a good range to work in.

:)

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 02:33

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I did not say I did not have proof. I know that The State Troopers up here had to send all their Glock 22's back. I know Glock issued a recall. I just did not think you had been living under and rock. This is common knowledge. The fact that you were not aware of it speaks volumes about your knowledge level or rather lack of.
Pat Alaska never had any luck with the 40cal from what you have been telling us,and I remember you said that all 4 40cal weapons you owned blew up like grenades at the range.I owned many 40cal weapons and fired many 40cal rounds through them including my G22 that was bought when the G22 first came out and never had a problem.I quess I'm just lucky and should count my blessing that I still have fingers left to hold my cigarettes with;)
P.S. still waiting for a link to THOUSANDS of Glocks failing from rail problems across the country.

ejsandstrom

04-28-2007, 03:07

In order for this to be true, your gun would have to recoil enough to accelerate that same sandbag backward to the same speed it was thrown towards the soldiers. In other words, the force is felt is the same on either ends of the round, the projectile and the shell casing. In fact, the felt energy should actually be greater at the pistol, because there is TOTAL energy transfer into the shooters hand, where a bullet may be able to over-penetrate, carrying on some of its energy beyond the target. So I cannot imagine this being at all possible, even with a 12 gauge shotgun.

I am not a physics guy by any stretch so this does not sound right to me. In a revolver maybe, in any thing semi-auto I would say no. It has been my experience that when shooting a bolt action vs. semi auto there is a difference in perceived recoil. And as far as the "TOTAL" energy transfer into the shooters hand if I follow the formula found in the reloading spreadsheet, found in the reloading forum here. A 200gn copper plated bullet at a velocity of 1010fps with a 10.3gn charge fired from a 30 ounce pistol will give you a bullet kinetic energy of 453 ft/lbs with a Recoil of 11.5 ft/lbs. (all weight and info from "Modern Reloading" This tells me that a bullet will hit the target with the force of 453 ft/lbs but I will have to over come a recoil of 11.5 ft/lbs. To me this makes since because if you were to use that round to shoot a steel target, the target would fall over. However if you were to hold the gun against the target the recoil would not hold the same punch to be able to knock a target over. I have torqued many main bolts to 450+ ft/lbs and if you were to shoot something that transferred that kind of pressure into your arm you might only do it a few times before your hand would be killing you. Like I said, I don't debate that the story may be untrue but if you could transfer 450 ft/lbs to a 20 lb sand bag, I would think that it would at least stop the forward momentum.
If there is a physics guy in the house please correct me and my math.
Thanks
-E

10mm4ever

04-28-2007, 06:24

The answer, in short, is that there is no "best". The answer will vary as much as the individual. Go with the most power that you can handle with efficiency. For some that may be a .380, .40, 10mm, etc. And dont take internet rumor and panic about "exploding guns" too seriously. If that were the case, Glock would have filed bankruptcy long ago, as opposed to filling LEO's holsters nationwide(including the F.B.I.)with Austrian hand grenades. The .40's an excellent SD round and it's built an enviable and well established record as a fight stopper amongst our nations LEO, and that's a fact that no amount of rumor or B.S. can change.

PBR Sailor

04-28-2007, 09:26

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I remember you said that you had 3 or 4 40cal weapons blow up on you like grenades,sure hope your ok Pat.Them dam 40's are dangerous SOB's
MOHAA

If you check the photos of the kaboom closely, you will notice Federal brand cartridges. There had been alot of problems with Federal .40 S&W ammunition due to a weak case web. Initially the company did not want to admit there was a problem, but I believe the problem was rectified by Federal Cartridge Company.

High pressure rounds fired in a Glock will show more evidence of stress in the case web area due to the fact that not as much of the case is supported when the round is chambered as some other makes of firearms. Once fired brass I have measured is also .0005" larger in diameter over brass fired in my Smith and Wesson pistols due to a larger chamber in the Glock pistols. I believe the chambers may be cut a little larger to enhance reliability in Glock combat pistols when they get dirty. I take this into account when reloading. Heavy duty brass is essential with the .40 S&W cartridge. Even when fired out of a Smith & Wesson pistol, .40 S&W brass should not be reloaded as much as with other calibers. I tend to avoid Federal pistol cartridge cases when reloading. Even 9mm Federal cases show greater signs of wear than other brands when fired out of my Glock 19.

We have officers in our area with 50,000 to 60,000 rounds of .40 S&W fired through their Glock 22 pistols with no kabooms. I am not afraid of my Glock 22 and I still shoot alot of new Federal ammunition. It is extremely important to keep the chamber clean, especially the leading edge, and keep a close watch for any build up of crud that will not allow the slide to go into full battery. I sometimes use a dental tool to clean out the leading edge of the chamber.

Back on topic.......there is nothing wrong with 9mm for defensive purposes, but bigger holes might be better in some instances. As far as pistol makes, it's the Ford versus Chevy thing.

:supergrin:

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 09:49

Originally posted by PBR Sailor
If you check the photos of the kaboom closely, you will notice Federal brand cartridges. There had been alot of problems with Federal .40 S&W ammunition due to a weak case web. I believe the problem was rectified by Federal Cartridge Company.

I own and shoot 40cal/357 Sig with no problems ever:thumbsup: Some people just like to post that the 40cal blows up every chance they get;)

Halojumper

04-28-2007, 12:22

Originally posted by ejsandstrom
I don't debate that the story may be untrue but if you could transfer 450 ft/lbs to a 20 lb sand bag, I would think that it would at least stop the forward momentum.
If there is a physics guy in the house please correct me and my math.
Thanks
-E

It's not your math that is at fault. It is your assumptions. Your comparison is not valid because you are comparing an item at rest (the sandbag at 20 lbs) to an item that is not at rest. When the sandbag is moving, the 20 lbs number is no longer valid.

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 16:55

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
40's in particular have a problem with KB's.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic3.gif
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic2.gif
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/deanpic1.gif

Pat

You're joking right? You've fallen for this myth? Also, I believe that box of .40's in your picture is as old as the hills and was discontinued and recalled.

Do you by chance know of any other cartridges in other pistols besides the .40 that aren't fully supported at the 6:00 position? Are they noted for KB's too?

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 17:01

Originally posted by BrianNH
You're joking right? You've fallen for this myth? Also, I believe that box of .40's in your picture is as old as the hills and was discontinued and recalled.

Do you by chance know of any other cartridges besides the .40 that aren't fully supported at the 6:00 position? Are they noted for KB's too?

A myth would be it is un true and does not happen. But thats not the case with the 40 KBing. It happens way to often for you to simply deny it. I have seen it happen and had it happen to me as well. I also know of too many documented case just in my state for me to bury my head in the sand like a 40 appologist. Also its not just about case support. Such a statement shows your lack of understanding on this issue. Its also an issue of pressure. A lack of case support and a high chamber pressure is a recipe for disaster. Over 90% of the documented KB's are with 40's care to explain that away.

Also the myth must have been true enough as Glock has increased case support in their barrels in the most recent 40 models.
Pat

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:05

Originally posted by BrianNH
You're joking right? You've fallen for this myth? Also, I believe that box of .40's in your picture is as old as the hills and was discontinued and recalled.

Do you by chance know of any other cartridges besides the .40 that aren't fully supported at the 6:00 position? Are they noted for KB's too? Even if there was a chamber support problem with older Glock models that is over with as we all know and have seen Glock sliped in that hidden chamber upgrade.When I take out my G31 barrel and drop in a 125gr Speer GD jhp I can't see any of the bottom case compared to my older G22 which shows a good bit of case that's left unsupport,but I still have probably close to 5000rnds or more through my G22 which was manufactured in 2000 without any problems and all parts and springs are stock and orignal from 2000.There are many myths on GT like the G22 hand grenads and 9mm's being equal to full house 10mm loads,but that's the internet.
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 17:07

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Even if there was a chamber support problem with older Glock models that is over with as we all know and have seen Glock sliped in that hidden chamber upgrade.When I take out my G31 barrel and drop in a 125gr Speer GD jhp I can't see any of the bottom case compared to my older G22 which shows a good bit of case that's left unsupport,but I still have probably close to 5000rnds or more through my G22 which was manufactured in 2000 without any problems and all parts and springs are stock and orignal from 2000.There are many myths on GT like the G22 hand grenads and 9mm's being equal to full house 10mm loads,but that's the internet.
MOHAA

A myth is something untrue I have presented evidence to the contrary and you have not as usual. The very fact that Glock secretly upgraded their guns proves that it was not a myth.

Also another myth is that the 10mm is some sort of magic death ray. Its not. Its a dying cartridge. Also 5000 rounds is not much shooting. Heck I shoot more than that in a few months in the summer.
Pat

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:11

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
A myth would be it is un true and does not happen. But thats not the case with the 40 KBing. It happens way to often for you to simply deny it. I have seen it happen and had it happen to me as well. I also know of too many documented case just in my state for me to bury my head in the sand like a 40 appologist. Also its not just about case support. Such a statement shows your lack of understanding on this issue. Its also an issue of pressure. A lack of case support and a high chamber pressure is a recipe for disaster. Over 90% of the documented KB's are with 40's care to explain that away.

Also the myth must have been true enough as Glock has increased case support in their barrels in the most recent 40 models.
Pat We can't just go by your word Pat,can you provide us with some documentation to back up your early statement that THOUSANDS of G22's have had frame rail failures ACROSS THE U.S. also why is it that the F.B.I./U.S. Marshalls/and many police agencies across the U.S. have swicthed to the 40cal but aren't suffering all these grenade like effects you say Alaska and you have been encountering.

My G22 from 2000 is still going strong after many range trips with different ammo from 155gr to 180gr.You seem to be the only one on caliber corner who has had 4 of the same caliber weapons blow up at the range.Please provide us with some facts and not hearsay on these THOUSANDS of bad G22's ACROSS THE U.S.
MOHAA

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:16

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
A myth is something untrue I have presented evidence to the contrary and you have not as usual. The very fact that Glock secretly upgraded their guns proves that it was not a myth.

Also another myth is that the 10mm is some sort of magic death ray. Its not. Its a dying cartridge. Also 5000 rounds is not much shooting. Heck I shoot more than that in a few months in the summer.
Pat My point with the upgrade is that 40cal Glocks now have fully supported chambers,and yes they needed it but now have it so that takes care of the chamber issue.Also I know the 10mm isn't a deathray,but the 9mm isn't its equal either by any strecth of the imagination as you claim.What is it with this 9mm crusade and all other calibers fail or blow up.This has been going on for 2 years now and you haven't let up once.It's time for proof Pat of these THOUSANDS of cases ACROSS THE U.S. you say are fact.
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 17:18

:rofl:
You are dancing all over yourself. First you say there is no problem. Then you say even if there was a problem its gone now because glock fixed the problem that did not exist. Your precious.:animlol: :animlol: :animlol:
Pat

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:22

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
:rofl:
You are dancing all over yourself. First you say there is no problem. Then you say even if there was a problem its gone now because glock fixed the problem that did not exist. Your precious.:animlol: :animlol: :animlol:
Pat Your avoiding being confronted to produce proof as you always do.I admit that 40cal Glocks had lame chamber support and now they have fully support chambers,is this big news I missed some where.Now back to proof of THOUSANDS OF FAILURES ACROSS THE U.S. please.
MOHAA

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 17:31

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I did not say I did not have proof. I know that The State Troopers up here had to send all their Glock 22's back. I know Glock issued a recall. I just did not think you had been living under and rock. This is common knowledge. The fact that you were not aware of it speaks volumes about your knowledge level or rather lack of.
Pat

Pat - You're taking hits :supergrin:

Could you tell me when the State Troopers sent back their G22's? What vintage pistols were they?

Now the BIG question... When you say Glock issued a recall do you mean Glock agreed to take back those particular pistols, OR - did they officially recall a certain range of pistols ouside of the State Troopers pistols as well? Reason I'm asking, is I was involved in the testing of several batches of recent mfg G22's and G23's rejected by a local PD and replaced twice. This began last Nov. A rep from ATK was involved as Glock believed it to be ammo related. In many discussions with Glock LE reps there was never mention of a recall. Any more specific input would be appreciated.

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:36

This thread will be locked soon I suspect and for the record I repeat we need proof of THOUSANDS of G22's ACROSS THE U.S. having frame rail failures.Proof is more then word of mouth,we need documents or link to these large failures ACROSS THE U.S.
MOHAA

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 17:38

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Over 90% of the documented KB's are with 40's care to explain that away.

Pat

I would be curious, out of that 90%, how many of those happened for no unexplainable reason, vs. how many were a result of faulty brass, overcharge, etc.

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:43

Originally posted by BrianNH
I would be curious, out of that 90%, how many of those happened for no unexplainable reason, vs. how many were a result of faulty brass, overcharge, etc. I would like to know how many where with handloads,and yes the older Glocks had lame chamber support which was a bad combo in a 40cal with a hot load,but what I like to know is how many cases are there of Glock 40cal's with the newer chamber support suffering case failures with factory ammo.I don't see a problem with factory ammo and the newer chamber support.
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 17:44

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 17:46

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I would like to know how many where with handloads,and yes the older Glocks had lame chamber support which was a bad combo in a 40cal with a hot load,but what I like to know is how many cases are there of Glock 40cal's with the newer chamber support suffering case failures with factory ammo.I don't see a problem with factory ammo and the newer chamber support.
MOHAA

Again who cares if they are handloads. People shoot a ton of handloads in 45 acp and 9mm without the same problem. That says a lot. Also the new glocks have not been out long enough to know if the problem is really solved. Time will tell. 5000 rounds is no test.
Pat

Halojumper

04-28-2007, 17:46

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Also the myth must have been true enough as Glock has increased case support in their barrels in the most recent 40 models.
Pat

So Glock fixed the supposed problem and now they are ok, or they are still virtual hand grenades? Which is it? You can't have it both ways Pat.

Snowman92D

04-28-2007, 17:49

...there's more dancing going on here than an Ellen Degeneres show. :dancingbanana:

Tell 'em what info source you're using, Pat.

Halojumper

04-28-2007, 17:50

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Time will tell. 5000 rounds is no test.
Pat

How many do you feel is a suitable number?

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:50

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Regardless of the reason you don't see those KB's with a 9mm or a 45 nearly as often. That says a lot.
Pat I never seen any 40cal KB's myself,I know there out there probably with the older Glock 40's but not as many as some would claim,and I like to see how many are out there from any of the newer Glock 40's with the fully supported chamber.
MOHAA

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 17:50

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Regardless of the reason you don't see those KB's with a 9mm or a 45 nearly as often. That says a lot.
Pat

Well.... that reason would be very useful info, wouldn't it??????

Oh nevermind, tell me about the Glock recall on the G22's / 40's that is common knowledge, which I didn't know about, and obviously now speaks volumes about my lack of knowledge.

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 17:54

Originally posted by Halojumper
How many do you feel is a suitable number? This 40cal bashing has been going on for 2 years with him,even though it's used by the F.B.I./U.S. Marshalls/countless state,federal,local agencies across the U.S. it's not approved by Alaska which isn't good enough for me to stop shooting my 40cal or 357 Sig for that matter.
MOHAA

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 18:01

Double post

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 18:02

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
This 40cal bashing has been going on for 2 years with him,even though it's used by the F.B.I./U.S. Marshalls/countless state,federal,local agencies across the U.S. it's not approved by Alaska which isn't good enough for me to stop shooting my 40cal or 357 Sig for that matter.
MOHAA

You're talking out your ass again. I never said the 40 was not approved in Alaska. And frankly I don't care what you shoot. Just don't get madd when I call you on denying the existence of KB's. Also I thought you were on a 9mm kick or 10mm or 45 or what ever kick lately. You change guns more often than most people change clothes. The funny thing is I am fairly sure I have owned and shot more 40's and 357 sigs than you have. So I am not speaking without knowledge and experience on the matter unlike yourself.
Pat

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 18:03

Double post

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 18:06

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I did not say I did not have proof. I know that The State Troopers up here had to send all their Glock 22's back. I know Glock issued a recall. I just did not think you had been living under and rock. This is common knowledge. The fact that you were not aware of it speaks volumes about your knowledge level or rather lack of.
Pat

Could you tell me when the State Troopers sent back their G22's? What vintage pistols were they?

Now the BIG question... When you say Glock issued a recall do you mean Glock agreed to take back those particular pistols, OR - did they officially recall a certain range of pistols ouside of the State Troopers pistols as well? Reason I'm asking, is I was involved in the testing of several batches of recent mfg G22's and G23's rejected by a local PD and replaced twice. This began last Nov. A rep from ATK was involved as Glock believed it to be ammo related. In many discussions with Glock LE reps there was never mention of a recall. Any more specific input would be appreciated.

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 18:07

Originally posted by BrianNH
Well.... that reason would be very useful info, wouldn't it??????

Oh nevermind, tell me about the Glock recall on the G22's / 40's that is common knowledge, which I didn't know about, and obviously now speaks volumes about my lack of knowledge.

You are seriously telling me you were unaware of the thousands of Glock 40's that were made with a defective slide rail turning the gun into a single shot. It was big news about 2 years ago. I was right that does speak volumes of your lack of knowledge. Do a search.

I also suppose you don't know that Indiana State Police had to replace all their Glock 22's with Glock 17's due to numerous problems Glock could not fix.
Pat

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 18:14

Originally posted by BrianNH
Could you tell me when the State Troopers sent back their G22's? What vintage pistols were they?

Now the BIG question... When you say Glock issued a recall do you mean Glock agreed to take back those particular pistols, OR - did they officially recall a certain range of pistols outside of the State Troopers pistols as well? Reason I'm asking, is I was involved in the testing of several batches of recent mfg G22's and G23's rejected by a local PD and replaced twice. This began last Nov. A rep from ATK was involved as Glock believed it to be ammo related. In many discussions with Glock LE reps there was never mention of a recall. Any more specific input would be appreciated.

The Troopers went to Glock 22's about 4 years ago. All the first batch of pistols they bought had to be replaced. Glock issued a list of affected models and serial number ranges. At first Glock denied the problem and only replaced guns as problems happened. But then the LEO community turned up the heat and they issued a blanket recall for LEO's with guns in the affected serial number range. They would replace civilian guns as well but did not advertise it. The pistols were made for a 1 year period I believe in 2001 to 2002 or so not sure on that. Glock has been tight lipped about it because it gave them a lot of negative press.
Pat

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 18:28

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You are seriously telling me you were unaware of the thousands of Glock 40's that were made with a defective slide rail turning the gun into a single shot. It was big news about 2 years ago. I was right that does speak volumes of your lack of knowledge. Do a search.:upeyes:

I also suppose you don't know that Indiana State Police had to replace all their Glock 22's with Glock 17's due to numerous problems Glock could not fix. No wonder you think that KB's are a myth you are simply not well informed.
Pat

You mean the recall of the "E" series pistols, that's what you're talking about?!! Geeze Pat, that is such old news, I didn't think anyone brought that up anymore and youre referring to it like it's hot off the press... Please. I'm asking about recent issues, you know. New news??

Since I have been involved in RECENT issues with the G22's being sent back, and you mentioned your state police sent their G22s back, I thought perhaps you would have some useful NEW news you could share with me like what problems they experienced, what series of pistols they were, etc. I didn't know you were talking about 2 years ago. :upeyes:

I know about it Indiana. I also know about NEW issues and have first hand info from Glock LE reps, and various ammo mfgs. You obviously have nothing NEW to offer since your knowledge appears to be two years lagging behind. :upeyes:

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 18:32

Originally posted by BrianNH
You mean the recall of the "E" series pistols, that's what you're talking about?!! Geeze Pat, that is such old news, I didn't think anyone brought that up anymore and youre referring to it like it's hot off the press... Please. I'm asking about recent issues, you know. New news??

Since I have been involved in RECENT issues with the G22's being sent back, and you mentioned your state police sent their G22s back, I thought perhaps you would have some useful NEW news you could share with me like what problems they experienced, what series of pistols they were, etc. I didn't know you were talking about 2 years ago. :upeyes:

I know about it Indiana. I also know about NEW issues and have first hand info from Glock LE reps, and various ammo mfgs. You obviously have nothing NEW to offer since your knowledge appears to be two years lagging behind. :upeyes:

Well I must be more informed than you are because you said you had no CLUE about the recall due to defective slide rails. Sounds like you're trying to back pedal fast. LOL :rofl: Well at least you did do a search and educate yourself rather you can admit it or not.
Pat

BrianNH

04-28-2007, 18:49

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Well I must be more informed than you are because you said you had no CLUE about the recall due to defective slide rails.
Pat

I said I had not heard of a recall period, not knowing the recall you were referring to was OLD NEWS......

I'm trying to gather information about some RECENT issues and it is clear you have nothing to offer other than childish banter.

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 19:04

Originally posted by BrianNH
I said I had not heard of a recall period, not knowing the recall you were referring to was OLD NEWS......

I'm trying to gather information about some RECENT issues and it is clear you have nothing to offer other than childish banter.

Yea whatever. The truth is you had no clue about any issues recent or otherwise. Then you did a search like I told you and you were caught with your pants down. Now you're trying to save face.
:wavey:
Pat

Halojumper

04-28-2007, 21:01

There was a recall, based on a whopping 0.0188 percent! That's nearly all of them, right Pat? (right Pat - Isn't that an AFB in Ohio?)

"GLOCK Frame Rails - The Real Scoop!

The GLOCK Corporation has identified an issue with a very small percentage of GLOCK pistols produced between September of 2001 and May of 2002. The specific issue that has been identified is the potential of breaking a rear frame rail in pistols manufactured during this time period. Within the specific range the breakage rate has been less than 0.0188%. So, while the actual percentage of rails reported broken is within any accepted manufacturing tolerance, it is not an acceptable situation to the GLOCK Corporation. It is also important to note that under most conditions GLOCK pistols will continue to function with three rails. A routine maintenance check after each time the pistol has been taken out and used would immediately indicate if there is a problem.

We are, therefore, concerned that a limited number of customers will not get the product we have promised them and what we have always delivered, the very best pistol on the market, in short, a GLOCK.

For these reasons, we have made the decision that in the interest of customer service, replacement frames will be offered to anyone who has a firearm in this range and decides to take advantage of this offer. The replacement frames will have identical serial numbers to our customer's original firearm except the numeral 1 will be added as a prefix. If you believe your firearm is within this range, please call 1-866-225-4098 to take advantage of the ultimate in customer service.

Nothing less than the best for our customers is acceptable to GLOCK and, as always, we will continue to work towards Perfection."

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 21:11

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You're talking out your ass again. I never said the 40 was not approved in Alaska. And frankly I don't care what you shoot. Just don't get madd when I call you on denying the existence of KB's. Also I thought you were on a 9mm kick or 10mm or 45 or what ever kick lately. You change guns more often than most people change clothes. The funny thing is I am fairly sure I have owned and shot more 40's and 357 sigs than you have. So I am not speaking without knowledge and experience on the matter unlike yourself.
Pat You seem to be the one getting mad not me,I'm just calling you on your statement to show us proof that THOUSANDS of G22's ACROSS THE COUNTRY suffered frame rail failures.Also wouldn't talking out of my butt be more along the posting rules that you accuse everyone else of breaking.I'm on no 9mm kick,I like the 9mm and carry one,I also see the 9mm's benifits but I also see the other service calibers benifits as well.I own 38spcl/9mm/357 Sig/40cal/45acp/10mm/45Colt/41 Magnum/12 gauge/7.62x39/22lr so I have no agenda here.
MOHAA

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 21:14

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Yea whatever. The truth is you had no clue about any issues recent or otherwise. Then you did a search like I told you and you were caught with your pants down. Now you're trying to save face.
:wavey:
Pat WOW I bet you heard that a THOUSAND times.
MOHAA

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 21:18

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
The Troopers went to Glock 22's about 4 years ago. All the first batch of pistols they bought had to be replaced. Glock issued a list of affected models and serial number ranges. At first Glock denied the problem and only replaced guns as problems happened. But then the LEO community turned up the heat and they issued a blanket recall for LEO's with guns in the affected serial number range. They would replace civilian guns as well but did not advertise it. The pistols were made for a 1 year period I believe in 2001 to 2002 or so not sure on that. Glock has been tight lipped about it because it gave them a lot of negative press.
Pat I quess Corvettes are junk since they had a issue one year also:upeyes:
http://www.car.com/content/own/service/index.cfm/action/RecallsView/seriesid/24714

Alaskapopo

04-28-2007, 21:26

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
I quess Corvettes are junk since they had a issue one year also:upeyes:
http://www.car.com/content/own/service/index.cfm/action/RecallsView/seriesid/24714

That recall was one of many issues such as KB's the Indiana State Police problems. Ect.

Pat

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 21:34

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
That recall was one of many issues such as KB's the Indiana State Police problems. Ect.

Pat Ok old problems years ago that was fixed and is no longer a issue.Cars and other devices have issues sometimes which is common when something is mass produced.The new Glocks have fully supported chambers and strong frame rails.I haven't seen any reports of KB's or any agencies having any issues with the new pistols so I quess there's no longer a problem.The F.B.I./U.S. Marshalls/and many state,federal,city agencies are very pleased with there Glocks in 357 Sig/40cal/45gap.
MOHAA

Halojumper

04-28-2007, 21:44

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
You seem to be the one getting mad not me,I'm just calling you on your statement

His next tactic will be to accuse you (or me) of learning everything from Combat Handguns magazine. That's usually the strategy when he is out of logical arguments and this fact is exposed.

happyguy

04-28-2007, 21:45

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
This thread will be locked soon I suspect and for the record I repeat we need proof of THOUSANDS of G22's ACROSS THE U.S. having frame rail failures.Proof is more then word of mouth,we need documents or link to these large failures ACROSS THE U.S.
MOHAA

There was a non-recall recall that I recall.

There was a certain serial number range of Glocks (I'm not certain that it was limited to .40's) that the rear frame rails were improperly manufactured, i.e. stamped, and they were known to be susceptible to breakage.

But that was a manufacturing defect and had nothing to do with the caliber of the weapon.

There were SOME failures, but no one (including pat) knows how many except for Glock.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

MOHAA Player

04-28-2007, 21:48

Originally posted by happyguy
There was a non-recall recall that I recall.

There was a certain serial number range of Glocks (I'm not certain that it was limited to .40's) that the rear frame rails were improperly manufactured, i.e. stamped, and they were known to be susceptible to breakage.

But that was a manufacturing defect and had nothing to do with the caliber of the weapon.

There were SOME failures, but no one (including pat) knows how many except for Glock.

Regards,
Happyguy :) Thank you for info happyguy:thumbsup:

happyguy

04-28-2007, 21:51

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
I also suppose you don't know that Indiana State Police had to replace all their Glock 22's with Glock 17's due to numerous problems Glock could not fix.
Pat

ISP did not send their 22's back for "numerous problems Glock could not fix." They sent them back for a specific reason.

ISP traded them for 17's because of feeding issues which Glock could not fix. Top round nose dives if I'm not mistaken.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

glock20c10mm

04-29-2007, 02:22

Originally posted by Rugby
Sounds like you need to buy a G29.

Yea, and that .40 is SOOOOO much bigger!

Yea, the "bullet manufacturers" just keep pressing in bullets that aren't designed for that speed!

I suppose you're not a big fan of going to the gym for added muscle. I suppose you're not a fan of modifying your car's engine performance. I suppose you're not a big fan of higher education. Are you a bigger fan of propeller planes or jets?

You should have proof-read and deleted this paragraph before you posted it!

I'll give ya the G29 comment. Also, can't argue too much with the expanded diameters of jhp's in 9mm & 40cal. Still, bigger is bigger and an edge is an edge in self defense choices.

One thing I can "stick to my guns" on are ammo manufacturers putting bullets in rounds at higher velocities than the bullets were originally intended for. And yes, I have proof. Take a look at the two commercial rounds Hornady offers for sale in 357sig. One is a 124gr XTP load rated by them at 1350 fps out of a 4" barrel. Well that's all fine and dandy except that Hornady's own designed velocity range for that bullet is 750-1200fps. Who knows, maybe they intend for us to not ever have to fire at someone who is any closer to us than about 52yds since the trajectory tables show us that at 50yds the bullet has slowed down to 1205fps. And then they have the 147gr load. They came out even with the max speed designed for the bullet and the speed the round produces, at least as far as their 4" barrel results go. Hornady rates the 147gr XTP for 750-1200fps. Their published velocity for the load is 1225fps. Just barely beyond the top end of the spectrum for that bullet. There's a few more examples out there but you get the point.

:thumbsup::wavey:

J.P.

04-29-2007, 05:15

I haven't read this whole thread but I just wanted to clear up something....
the Glock "recall" affected all calibers...not just .40

Alaskapopo

04-29-2007, 06:21

happyguy

04-29-2007, 06:42

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
9mm models were not effected by the recall just 40's and 357 sigs. Check your facts. It had everything to do with the caliber of the weapons. The 9mm did not put enough wear and wear on the gun for the slide rail issue to show itself.
pat

Check your thought processes.

There was a manufacturing defect. Or is that too difficult for you to get your mind around. If not for the defect the recall would not have occurred and the broken rails would not have happened.

You are correct that the added recoil of the .40 puts more stress on the weapon. You are also correct that 9mm weapons converted to .40 generally have shorter service lives.

Everything else you said is beyond ignorant, including the idea that .40's are somehow inherently unreliable.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Alaskapopo

04-29-2007, 07:13

Originally posted by happyguy
Check your thought processes.

There was a manufacturing defect. Or is that too difficult for you to get your mind around. If not for the defect the recall would not have occurred and the broken rails would not have happened.

You are correct that the added recoil of the .40 puts more stress on the weapon. You are also correct that 9mm weapons converted to .40 generally have shorter service lives.

Everything else you said is beyond ignorant, including the idea that .40's are somehow inherently unreliable.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Strange how no 9mms had to have their frames replaced and yet you say its nothing to do with caliber. Now your admitting the 40 is harder on guns and has a shorter service life. At least your willing to concede this obvious fact.
Pat

10mm4ever

04-29-2007, 07:23

Alaskapopo

04-29-2007, 07:32

Originally posted by 10mm4ever
So again, the motus operandi rears its ugly head. This is about making your pet caliber look better, by making everything else look "flawed" in some way. Same old game. :upeyes:
You are the only one with a pet caliber. You are just bitter because its dying. RIP 10mm
Pat

Danny Reid

04-29-2007, 07:41

Even *I* have to admit this is getting stupid...

Pat, please back up your claim concerning thousands of Glocks...

If you can't assign a number, please admit your hyperbole...

And let's drop this!!!!!

cjacobs

04-29-2007, 08:00

Alaskapopo

04-29-2007, 08:02

Originally posted by Danny Reid
Even *I* have to admit this is getting stupid...

Pat, please back up your claim concerning thousands of Glocks...

If you can't assign a number, please admit your hyperbole...

And let's drop this!!!!!
Nearly every 40sw made during that period had to be replaced. So unless you find it odd that glock would sell thousands of pistols in a years time. I don't see why you find this hard to believe. I know of at least 300 up here in Alaska that went back first hand.

Pat

Alaskapopo

04-29-2007, 08:19

Originally posted by cjacobs
Thants hogwash. My dept sent back two G-17's that had serial numbers on that list. I have a copy of the serial number list in my desk, it was not caliber specific to the .40 S&W.

Did they have any failures of did you just send them in because they were on the list. I have yet to see a 9mm that failed in that batch. But I have seen 40's that have. The recall did effect all calibers in the 9mm/40/357 sig sized frames. But only the 40's and 357 sigs actually broke from the information I have. Do you have information to the contrary?

Glock even said they did not believe the 9mm would display the same problems due to cartridges reduced slide velocity.
Pat

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 08:22

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Nearly every 40sw made during that period had to be replaced. So unless you find it odd that glock would sell thousands of pistols in a years time. I don't see why you find this hard to believe. I know of at least 300 up here in Alaska that went back first hand.

Pat Once again you are just Pat from GT which isn't enough for me.Please provide proof of THOUSANDS OF G22'S suffering frame failures ACROSS THE COUNTRY.You say this is a fact that everyone knows,we don't know or believe you and ask you to show us Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prove) of your great hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis)

cjacobs

04-29-2007, 08:24

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
You are the only one with a pet caliber. You are just bitter because its dying. RIP 10mm
Pat

Currently in production 10MM handguns:
EAA, Dan Wesson, Glock, S&W, Kimber,etc

Currently in production 10MM ammo:
Winchester,federal,remington,CCI, hornady

"Parlor House Ammo"
DT, Georga Arms, Buffalo Bore, corbon

Not to bad for a dying caliber.

Pat, we all know that you do not like 10MM, and we all know that you think that 9mm is all that anyone needs. We really dont care. Those are your opinions and ours won't change beacuse of it.

_____________________________
Lots of really cool
certifications like Pat
but not worth bragging about.

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 08:31

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Did they have any failures of did you just send them in because they were on the list. I have yet to see a 9mm that failed in that batch. But I have seen 40's that have. The recall did effect all calibers in the 9mm/40/357 sig sized frames. But only the 40's and 357 sigs actually broke from the information I have. Do you have information to the contrary?

Glock even said they did not believe the 9mm would display the same problems due to cartridges reduced slide velocity.
Pat I admit that the 9mm will probably last a little longer in a Glock if they where feed the same amount of rounds over the years of range ammo,but if you fired +p or +p+ ammo in the 9mm then I would say the 9mm would wear as fast or faster then 40cal/357 Sig.Remember to get the 9mm to perform like a 40cal/357 Sig you have to push the 9mm to +p or +p+ velocities which increases its case pressure to the same or more then 40cal/357 Sig.The bottom line is most of us including me are willing to except a little extra wear on a weapon to get better performance.If I have a worn or broke spring I'll replace it.Right now I have a G31 with a LoneWolf 357 Sig barrel on order and I'm very pleased with here performance at the range,and I like having the extra performance of the 357 Sig.

I never had a problem with any 40cal weapon I ever owned or own.If you have a 350 Chevy small block stock that runs 15.60 in the quarter and throw $2000.00 in her to get 11's in the quarter you expect some quicker wear,but high performance isn't for everyone I see;)
MOHAA

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 08:38

Originally posted by cjacobs
Currently in production 10MM handguns:
EAA, Dan Wesson, Glock, S&W, Kimber,etc

Currently in production 10MM ammo:
Winchester,federal,remington,CCI, hornady

"Parlor House Ammo"
DT, Georga Arms, Buffalo Bore, corbon

Not to bad for a dying caliber.

Pat, we all know that you do not like 10MM, and we all know that you think that 9mm is all that anyone needs. We really dont care. Those are your opinions and ours won't change beacuse of it.

_____________________________
Lots of really cool
certifications like Pat
but not worth bragging about. Pat has been saying the 10mm is dying for years,here he is saying it on 2-15-2003 but once again that dying 10mm is still here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The 357 sig is more accurate and has better barrier penetration than the 40sw. ITs has more stopping power and more barrier penetration than the 9mm. It fits in a smaller gun with less recoil as opposed to the 10mm (which is almost dead by the way). It fits into a smaller gun than the 45 acp and holds more ammo with better barrier penetration.
PAT
Link to that thread (http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132639)
the 10mm (which is almost dead by the way) :upeyes:

AZ_Quailhunter

04-29-2007, 08:58

This subject always reminds me of topics from other forums......like
"which gauge shotgun is "the best"........... hehehehehe:banana:

BrianNH

04-29-2007, 09:49

BrianNH

04-29-2007, 09:51

Originally posted by BrianNH
What recall are you talking about now for christ sake? Man you are really out there. Are you locked up in a funny farm somewhere with internet access? WOW :brickwall:

Edited to add: I would also talk to someone about that chip on your shoulder. Were you picked on a lot as a child? You dont have a CHL do you? :upeyes:

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 10:03

Originally posted by BrianNH
What recall are you talking about now for christ sake? Man you are really out there. Are you locked up in a funny farm somewhere with internet access? WOW :brickwall: Please don't feed into his game.This is what Pat does best,he will bait you into fustration then play the victim and tell the mods you are insulting him and breaking the rules.I know he's running in circles and not given any of us proof and that's why he's trying now to get people attacking him so he can get the mods to close this thread so he can get out of the mess he put himself in with his statements he can't back up with proof.
MOHAA

BrianNH

04-29-2007, 10:07

Originally posted by MOHAA Player
Please don't feed into his game.This is what Pat does best,he will bait you into fustration then play the victim and tell the mods you are insulting him and breaking the rules.I know he's running in circles and not given any of us proof and that's why he's trying now to get people attacking him so he can get the mods to close this thread so he can get out of the mess he put himself in with his statements he can't back up with proof.
MOHAA

HE BREAKS THE RULES, I've read his insults. Unless he's got a Lip lock on the mods I dont know how they could deny it.

I guess if he's got "issues", we should feel bad for him.

Is there a block list here?

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 10:10

Originally posted by BrianNH

Is there a block list here? Yes just go to User CP and select ignore list and add the user's screen name you want to block from seeing his/her post and click add.It's case sensative so just cut and paste user name to your list.
MOHAA

ejsandstrom

04-29-2007, 11:25

It's not your math that is at fault. It is your assumptions. Your comparison is not valid because you are comparing an item at rest (the sandbag at 20 lbs) to an item that is not at rest. When the sandbag is moving, the 20 lbs number is no longer valid.

Very true so if Force = Mass*acceleration then to make it simple on me we will convert to metric.

m=9.09k a=9.8 this gives us a force of 89.082k this tells me that a 9.09k sand bag that is dropped from about 10 feet will hit the ground as if it weighed 89k or 195lbs
Then if we use the calculation Force = momentum / (time to stop) or F = mv/t. and momentum = ( m * v ) / 225218 slug ft/sec.

Using the same bullet and speed and a 1/100 of a second to stop the bullet.
((200gn*1010)/225218)/.001 = 896.908puunds of force

So to sum up my long and unneeded math lesson. If you throw a 20lb sand bag at me from 10ft and I shoot it with a 200gn .45 and the energy dumps to the sand bag in 1/100 of a second then I should have 4x the amount of force needed to stop the forward momentum of said sand bag.

I know this is way off topic but it is an attempt to show that the original story while possibly not true, is plausible. There are just to many variables to know every possible answer.
P.S. formulas taken from HERE (http://www.xmission.com/~fractil/math/kp.html)

happyguy

04-29-2007, 12:20

I was thinking about buying another G23 but from the sound of things I won't be able to find any. They've either all blown up, broken their frame rails, or been shipped back to Glock. Too bad.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :tongueout:

Regards,
Happyguy :)

happyguy

04-29-2007, 12:32

Originally posted by Alaskapopo
Strange how no 9mms had to have their frames replaced and yet you say its nothing to do with caliber. Now your admitting the 40 is harder on guns and has a shorter service life. At least your willing to concede this obvious fact.
Pat

It has to do with improperly manufactured frame rails, not caliber. Evidently that is too difficult of a concept for your meager intellect to comprehend.

Please point to a post where I ever stated that the .40's weren't harder on guns than 9mm's. Can't? Hmmm...

Provide proof or even credible evidence that no 9mm's had to have their frames replaced. Can't? Hmmm...

Provide proof or credible evidence that thousands (or even one thousand, or better yet one hundred) Glock .40's suffered frame rail failures. Can't? Hmmm.

So who exactly is talking out of their ass now pat?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

happyguy

04-29-2007, 12:55

Now back to the original question.

If you are a defensive handgunning god like me, you'll carry a .45 acp. And just because you are full of machismo you'll only load it with +P ammo.

The rest of you girly men will be better served by 9mm's. You simply can't handle the recoil of anything larger. Too bad for you.

Regards,
Happyguy :)

MOHAA Player

04-29-2007, 13:35

Originally posted by happyguy
Now back to the original question.

If you are a defensive handgunning god like me, you'll carry a .45 acp. And just because you are full of machismo you'll only load it with +P ammo.

The rest of you girly men will be better served by 9mm's. You simply can't handle the recoil of anything larger. Too bad for you.

Regards,
Happyguy :) Machismo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK0PVKfN7M0) :supergrin:

Alaskapopo

04-30-2007, 00:57

Originally posted by happyguy
It has to do with improperly manufactured frame rails, not caliber. Evidently that is too difficult of a concept for your meager intellect to comprehend.

Please point to a post where I ever stated that the .40's weren't harder on guns than 9mm's. Can't? Hmmm...

So who exactly is talking out of their ass now pat?

Regards,
Happyguy :)

Post from happyguy.
You are correct that the added recoil of the .40 puts more stress on the weapon. You are also correct that 9mm weapons converted to .40 generally have shorter service lives.
END QUOTE
Sure sounds like your admitting 9mm's last longer and are easier on the gun.

Lay off the insults. Saying someone has a meager intellect is in clear violation of the rules.
Pat