Wadcutter, flat point, lead round nose, and hollowpoints

[James Markov]

Some people choose a wadcutter in the .38 stubnose for self defense, citing the belief it cuts a full, deep wound channel, verses the lead round nose which produces a "pucker shaped" wound. A hollow point might expand and not penetrate deep enough in the limited power relatively speaking of the 38 special round.
Observing a 38 special cowboy load(158 grain lead FLAT point) at 800 feet(Black Hills) per second-note the traditional 158 grain .38 load is 755 feet per second-would a flat point be more viable?
I understand the new concept of the Speer 135 grain +p 38 special EXPANDS in a short barrel, so I was exploring the older lead wadcutter theory.
Here there is reference to Elmer Keith's wadcutter bullet
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21
Basically sorry for the rambling, but is a lead flat point in the .38 special an alternative to lets say a 110 grain federal hydrashock load?
Does anybody here use the "wadcutter" concept? Included in this question is the "FBI 158 grain +p lead semi wadcutter hollow point"

[Berto]

Originally posted by James Markov
Some people choose a wadcutter in the .38 stubnose for self defense, citing the belief it cuts a full, deep wound channel, verses the lead round nose which produces a "pucker shaped" wound. A hollow point might expand and not penetrate deep enough in the limited power relatively speaking of the 38 special round.
Observing a 38 special cowboy load(158 grain lead FLAT point) at 800 feet(Black Hills) per second-note the traditional 158 grain .38 load is 755 feet per second-would a flat point be more viable?

I doubt there's any perceptable difference other than the FP won't yaw like an RN in flesh. The meplats aren't big enough to affect the wound channel on those cowboy loads.







I understand the new concept of the Speer 135 grain +p 38 special EXPANDS in a short barrel, so I was exploring the older lead wadcutter theory.
Here there is reference to Elmer Keith's wadcutter bullet
http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=21
Basically sorry for the rambling, but is a lead flat point in the .38 special an alternative to lets say a 110 grain federal hydrashock load?

I'd say 'yes' only because the Fed load is worthless..going too slow and not usually expanding,so a 158gr FP would actally be an improvement over a non-expanded 110gr and the extra weight and softer composition might be beneficial against bone. My opinion anyway.


Does anybody here use the "wadcutter" concept? Included in this question is the "FBI 158 grain +p lead semi wadcutter hollow point"

I think a hardcast wadcutter driven to a decent velocity (850+fps) might be viable as it would not shear like a soft lead WC (essentially performing like a RN) and has enough energy to penetrate big bones and angled skull shots where a target WC wouldn't...but I'd still put the FBI load as the best choice load.

[MrMurphy]

While not preferable to a JHP or LSWCHP it would be ok.

In .455 Webley the old Mk III round was commercially marketed as the Manstopper because of the effectiveness of the round (effective enough that in WW1 the Germans got it removed from service after *****ing about it). It was a lead full wadcutter, basically a flat .455 cylinder of lead.

[Jim Watson]

I recall an article that said the NYPD adopted a .38 Spl SWC in search of more "stopping power" than roundnose without the shame of going to the politically incorrect hollowpoint. No increase in "stopping power" was seen.

[michael t]

The 158 LSWCHP +P has a recoord for working on the street It is my 38spl round of choice. Always in my J frame.
For a recoil sensitive person I would use the 148gr wadcutters. Lots of people carried these in pre HP days .
Its still about placement more than bullet.

[James Markov]

The 148 grain wadcutter comment has me thinking-since most STANDARD pressure 38 rounds DO NOT EXPAND out of a short barrel is the wadcutter viable?

[Jim Watson]

I would not depend on a target .38 midrange wadcutter for self defense. All that stuff about a flat point delivering energy and the square corner cutting a big hole ignores the facts that it does not have much energy to deliver and does not penetrate very far to put that hole through something important.

I carried wadcutters for a while, until I shot them into various media and saw how little destruction they did vs hollowpoints or heavy SWC loads.

Buffalo Bore is selling a full power .38 wadcutter (which the bigs used to make, a couple of generations ago) that might do the trick.

[anyplainjoe]

Jsmes, if you want to use ball or otherwise nonexpanding ammo go for it. All the science and field report say to go with expanding. If is doesn't expand, you're no worse off than ball.

[James Markov]

Originally posted by anyplainjoe
Jsmes, if you want to use ball or otherwise nonexpanding ammo go for it. All the science and field report say to go with expanding. If is doesn't expand, you're no worse off than ball. I would use a hot, heavier grain(135 grain +p) in a self defense situation. I am just looking at the various other bullet types and stopping power, thats all.

[Snowman92D]

Originally posted by Jim Watson
I recall an article that said the NYPD adopted a .38 Spl SWC in search of more "stopping power" than roundnose without the shame of going to the politically incorrect hollowpoint. No increase in "stopping power" was seen.

Correct. The NYPD officers union complained mightily about the issued standard-pressure 158-grain lead round-nose load...so their admin agreed to issue them a 158-grain lead SWC +P service load. As Jim notes, it wasn't much better than the LRN load it replaced, but it was issued until after the 9mm semi-autos were authorized for use and the whole dept switched to HP ammo. The Gold Dot 135-grain +P is issued to those NYPD officers still using .38 Special revolvers. LAPD does the same. I've yet to hear any of their officers, or union reps, complaining that it's an ineffective load when decently placed.

The 148-grain .38 Special wadcutter is a target load, and even on paper, does no more than duplicate the sad-sack ballistics of the old 150-grain .38 Long Colt that prove so ineffective for the U.S. Army after it was issued to their personnel in 1892. The 148-grain wadcutter was extolled as a viable .38 snubbie defensive load recently, for a short time, by learned folks who spend their days shooting gello blocks in lieu of homicidal felons. But thankfully the development of the Gold Dot 135-grain +P jhp in .38 Special has again relegated the 148-grain wadcutter to a target-shooting load.

Does the Black Hills "cowboy" load mentioned above attain its 800 fps velocity from a 2-inch barrel snubbie revolver, or a 6-inch factory test barrel? In any event, the NYPD's experience indicates that driving a solid-nosed .38 Special projectile faster (as in +P velocity) didn't seem to have any other effect that to insure that the bullet would penetrate through-and-through on most torso hits.

Keep in mind that Elmer Keith spent his life as a rancher and hunting guide who fleshed out his hard-scrabble income by writing magazine articles and books about things he learned about shooting through trial and error. He developed the KT type of SWC bullets to give him improved accuracy at longer ranges, but still use the cheaper lead-cast bullets that he could afford to shoot frequently.

[James Markov]

To clarify here, does the 158 grain +p lead hollow point in the semi wadcutter configuration(called the "FBI load") preform well out of a snubnose barrel?

[anyplainjoe]

Originally posted by James Markov
To clarify here, does the 158 grain +p lead hollow point in the semi wadcutter configuration(called the "FBI load") preform well out of a snubnose barrel?

No it does not. The round's popularity is a carry over from the old days when there wasn't anything better. If you want a good load use Speer's Short Barrel 135grn HP. It's totally designed for snubbies.

[Rugby]

Originally posted by anyplainjoe
No it does not. The round's popularity is a carry over from the old days when there wasn't anything better. If you want a good load use Speer's Short Barrel 135grn HP. It's totally designed for snubbies.

I recently gave up on the modern stuff for my S&W 442. I just bought 1000 rounds of custom loaded 158 grain +P SWHP (ie. FBI Load) stuff for less than 100 bucks. It's a proven round and I feel totally confident using it in my BUG and is cheap enough to use for practice ammo.

I read the other posts in this thread and noted the despairity. It just goes to show you how different everyone's opinions are and what causes all the frustration in Caliber Corner. Everyone has their own personal reason for using what it is they use. It's up to you to choose the one that lets you sleep well at night.

[Butch]

Originally posted by anyplainjoe
No it does not. The round's popularity is a carry over from the old days when there wasn't anything better. If you want a good load use Speer's Short Barrel 135grn HP. It's totally designed for snubbies.
The question remains.....how do we know it's better? Got a cite to support your words?

Where's Broken Arrow?



:patriot:

[anyplainjoe]

Originally posted by Butch
The question remains.....how do we know it's better? Got a cite to support your words?

Where's Broken Arrow?



:patriot:

I left my MLS writing style guide at home. Go to Speer's site or cruise around the net for photos of recovered bullets. They most always look good.

[Butch]

Originally posted by MrMurphy
In .455 Webley the old Mk III round was commercially marketed as the Manstopper because of the effectiveness of the round (effective enough that in WW1 the Germans got it removed from service after *****ing about it). It was a lead full wadcutter, basically a flat .455 cylinder of lead.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Ammo%20pics/455Webley.jpg



:patriot:

[anyplainjoe]

I thought we were talking about shooting a .357 diameter bullet out of a 2 inch snubby?

Using handloads or some custom ammo in a self defense situation has got to be the #1 way to make life difficult on yourself.

[Butch]

Originally posted by anyplainjoe
I left my MLS writing style guide at home.
What's an MLS writing guide? If it had something to do with English class, I probably wasn't paying attention... ;)


Go to Speer's site or cruise around the net for photos of recovered bullets. They most always look good.
Speer isn't gonna put up anything that doesn't make their products look good, that would be dumb. And I'm not saying you're wrong either, but ya got to give us some reason to believe!



:patriot:

[Butch]

Originally posted by anyplainjoe
I thought we were talking about shooting a .357 diameter bullet out of a 2 inch snubby?
Yup, but a little historical perspective on the use of wadcutter type bullets in defensive ammo is a good thing too!


Using handloads or some custom ammo in a self defense situation has got to be the #1 way to make life difficult on yourself.
I quite agree!



:patriot:

[anyplainjoe]

If I lived back in the old days and all I had was WC and SWC, I'd used them and think they were super powerful like the Germans did. But fast forward 50+ years of development, and now we understand more of the laws of physics and fluids, and better options have been developed.

[anyplainjoe]

here's a good reference

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html